PART 3: ME (stock) vs MLR (full exhaust/custom tune)

[b00st]

ok so here tale of the tape...

b00st's 2004 B6 S4 = STOCK, 93 octane, 3/4 of a tank of gas today.

MLR's 2005 B6 S4 = FI catback, custom DPs, and custom tune (autospeed)
i'm sure he's on 93 octane too, not sure how much gas he had in the tank.
so full exhaust and custom tune for his car.

we did a billion runs tonight. only one we couldn't get done was from the dig...and we were setup to do that when a cop car rolls up 3 cars behind.

so first one we did was a 1st gear pull or 2nd gear its hard to remember with all of them. i honked so i pretty much had the bump. and result the a couple gears. EVEN.

we did a 2nd gear pull running through 3rd and some 4th...end result. EVEN.

we did a few 2nd and 1st gear pulls with the results yielding the same pretty much each time. i'm excluding the fact that my car could pull ahead a little bit on the honks for driver lag. over all i would say its a tie. dead even and here is a guy with full exhaust and chip.

then we took it to the highway.

3rd gear highway pull...through 4th. end result. EVENS

we did one 4th gear where we were down low in the rpms...we were at the end of 4th gear...not sure how fast...but it was pretty damn fast...and if we continued into 5th...he would have prolly gained something. but the real result was we were neck and neck.

we did another 4th gear pull but higher in the rpms...and its a dead even race.

we did multiple 3rd and 4th gear runs...and i'm sure MLR will agree that the result is we are EVENS. stock vs. modded ended up being even.

the races were setup with the gears picked out already. so trying keep down driver error, etc.

as said before with my races vs. my brother (zonawildcats4)....when we raced with him being stock. we were even. when i raced him with catback and chip we were dead even.

now comes MLR with full exhaust and custom tune. and yes he may have more horsepower than me...even if its 25awhp more than me...in the grand scheme of things its like 5%. thats not big enough to make a difference on the street. and me and MLR did do a run from like 10mph to 80 something or 90 something...i wasn't watching the speedo but top of 3rd. so you figure with full exhaust and custom tune...he should pull on me...but no....we were just EVEN. so my car is not a freak of nature and stronger than the rest.

i raced my bro stock and we were even.
i raced my bro modded (catback & REVO) and we were even.
i raced MLR with full exhaust and custom tune and we were even.

so for people who didn't believe that my brothers car "WASN'T TAKING TO THE MODS" now what...MLR's car isn't either? he car is pretty bad ass sounding though...hands down..i want my car to sound like that.
and of course its dolphin grey so whats not to like.

i'm sure MLR will chime in on the thread. he can give his perspective. whether its was highway or simple streetlight....the cars are dead even stock or modded....just trying to show how it plays out in the real world

this should be enough now...next time i post a story it will be me vs something other than an s4. enjoy take it for what its worth. its kind of hard to look the other way on this, considering the past results and now new car, new driver and more mods.

THE B6 S4 is just simply maxed out and well tuned from the factory. though the mods may have improved the driver experience...smoothed out rpm band, etc, etc...it doesn't mean your faster.

[The Broker]

Thanks for doing all these test, I really appreciate it.

[b00st]

welcome.

just trying to help the community and show how it plays out in the real world. MLR was nice enough to help put my theory to the test. i was expecting him walk away but at the same time. when you consider its only about a 5%% difference than stock...its not really much of a difference. you can post whatever dynos you want. this shows what these mods translate to on the street.

[b00st]

one thing i did notice when racing the modded s4s...is that my car seems to be able to pull ahead quicker and gain a little lead...say half car...then are cars are stuck at end even. regardless of who is honking.

[AudinLV]

Thank you, you just save me $2,000+ in DP and software.

[nimski62]

Thank you, you just save me $2,000+ in DP and software.

i know right.. i love this

[tadhgbrosnan]

This info just strengthens my resolve to just leave my B6 as is (Labree catback), and put my saved money towards a down payment on a used RS4 in about a year or so. Given the MANY stories of CELs, blown cats, running rich, running lean...and now this? DPs are just not worth all that money. A used set, maybe. But not full price + install fees, plus the requisite ECU tune. That's well over $2k for what is apparently just a sound upgrade.

[PenguiN]

nice writeup but this doesnt seem very accurate, at least from my personal experience. A guy who lives in my neighborhood has a bone stock S4. Me on the other hand, have full exhaust and revo software. Almost everyday when I leave for work we see eachother on the highway. On a few occassions we've raced and i would jump ahead by half to a whole car length (my rear bumper was even with his front bumper, and sometimes even ahead of it) every time. Your car just might be a factory beast. I did however win the race everytime.

[The Broker]

I wonder if weight savings would show better gains vs stock in the real world then performance mods on the S4.

[ZONAWILDCATS4]

maybe its that secret turbonator that you're not telling people about...

[EuroB6]

^^lol

[Mello]

Thanks for the continued updates b00st.

[ChronicTeutonic]

one thing i did notice when racing the modded s4s...is that my car seems to be able to pull ahead quicker and gain a little lead...say half car...then are cars are stuck at end even. regardless of who is honking.

My guess is that since you have the more restrictive exhaust you are getting more torque at the low end. The modified cars lose the the low end torque but gain some in the high end so that is where it evens out..

[b00st]

My guess is that since you have the more restrictive exhaust you are getting more torque at the low end. The modified cars lose the the low end torque but gain some in the high end so that is where it evens out..

this is my assumption as well. but i excluded the fact that i was ahead...i was really focusing on how we did as we ran. and the simple fact is...we both kinda stayed where we were when the car settled in.

if we really break it down...and looked at it...then yes i would say i was ahead by 1/2 cars or so. so i win. i'm trying to give a little leeway for driver reaction to the honks. however even with that...i did notice my car would jump out ahead...even against my brother. but looking at the runs just at running speed...we were even and nobody could pull on one another, which i think is the real key to all this.

[b00st]

nice writeup but this doesnt seem very accurate, at least from my personal experience. A guy who lives in my neighborhood has a bone stock S4. Me on the other hand, have full exhaust and revo software. Almost everyday when I leave for work we see eachother on the highway. On a few occassions we've raced and i would jump ahead by half to a whole car length (my rear bumper was even with his front bumper, and sometimes even ahead of it) every time. Your car just might be a factory beast. I did however win the race everytime.

this can happen. your friends s4 can be weaker...the reason why i am posting this is because. the reason this is a little more accurate is because i did it this way.

i've raced my brother (zona) stock.
i've raced my brother with his catback and REVO flash.
i've raced MLR with full exhaust and custom tune.

and results are even...if you want to be technical...my car would move out ahead by half car. understand that the person who does the honking naturally gets the bump. so i wanted the others to honk as well. the gears were pre-selected so we didn't have to worry about who was in what gear.
we just had to time the honk...sometimes we did...sometimes we didn't, thats why me and MLR did a billion runs. i would honk sometimes and not hit the gas...or i didn't think he did. etc. but we did enough to say at the end of the night....that at high speed or low speed...the cars are really the same in the end.

[b00st]

Your car just might be a factory beast. I did however win the race everytime.

remember my car can't be a factory beast if i raced ZONA stock and we were even stock.

[EuroB6]

^ dont know what to say buddy. But, a dyno before and after installs of DPs, exhaust and ECU will 100% tell you if you have gains or not.(assuming conditions are the same and on the same dyno)

People that gain at least 25 AWHP with those bolt on mods, will feel a difference and the car will be faster.

[ZONAWILDCATS4]

^ dont know what to say buddy. But, a dyno before and after installs of DPs, exhaust and ECU will 100% tell you if you have gains or not.(assuming conditions are the same and on the same dyno)

People that gain at least 25 AWHP with those bolt on mods, will feel a difference and the car will be faster.

Apparently MLR has a dyno showing gains...don't know the exact numbers, he can provide them to you. I would guess that your right to estimate about a 25awhp gain. But did that equal anything on the street? He will have to chime in and provide you with his perspective.

Take it a step further...he has a custom tune too. Not the generic files like I had and the other manufacturers have...

[Tek4ever]

Thanks again for the test & results write up. I wonder if he had a dyno tested DP if the end result would be any different? Why didn't he go with a full F.I. setup? Did he save money going with the custom DP & F.I. catback?

[b00st]

^ dont know what to say buddy. But, a dyno before and after installs of DPs, exhaust and ECU will 100% tell you if you have gains or not.(assuming conditions are the same and on the same dyno)

People that gain at least 25 AWHP with those bolt on mods, will feel a difference and the car will be faster.

please read the first post. as i said 25awhp is about a 5% difference of stock. so on the street...that doesn't equate to anything.

[b00st]

this was taken from from a friend, from a local forum. so it goes to speak that the person who said it would be about 33% DT Loss on that RS4, well you were right. and with full exhaust and ECU he is putting down 260 on a DD dyno.

MLR's dyno and info....per AL (owner of CPT) the stock B6 S4 typically dynos around 245awhp on his dyno.

I have recently completed my last few Mods on my S4: Full-Back Exhaust, K&N Filter w/Stock Air Box & finally a custom Tune by Autospeed preformed at CPT.

After running into a few bugs and 4 days of trying to tune my NA ECU, they finally completed the project. As some of you already know, the Dyno Dynamics Dynamometer that CPT uses can show some lower numbers (about 30-33% off the Crank). Basically, the results do not lie and if you have gains or losses they will be exposed on this DYNO.

At this stage, my S4 is as stretched as possible without the use FI. What surprised me more was the comparison shown below. CPT had recently run a B7 RS4 (stock) and the results were interesting. The RS4 only showed 20 WHP more than my S4. Granted, I have some mods, but I guess I was expecting to see the RS4 with 35-40 WHP more than me.

Formula used CHP x 30% = WHP (formula from CPT)

My S4 put down 260 WHP (about 372 CHP)
B7 RS4 put down 280 WHP (Audi Claims 420 CHP, but based on the same formula it would equal 400 CHP, not 420)

[Tek4ever]

So it looks like MLR's S4 is performing well with his Mods. Is CPT a shop near Chicago? Do you know what they charge for a Dyno? I hope you do make it to the track at least once...I'd love to see how you do since you're local.

[EuroB6]

please read the first post. as i said 25awhp is about a 5% difference of stock. so on the street...that doesn't equate to anything.

that's like chipping a 1.8t engine..it's very noticable and if you race a stock 1.8t vs chipped 1.8t, it will pull

Good testing though

[b00st]

that's like chipping a 1.8t engine..it's very noticable and if you race a stock 1.8t vs chipped 1.8t, it will pull

Good testing though

unfortunately your wrong..its nothing like chipping a 1.8T. it would be more like adding an inake on a 1.8T. and a full exhaust and custom tune will not pull. MLR is getting at least 15awhp from his mods. but just because he has a few more ponies doesn't mean that it will show up on the street.

he says it drives nicer...no arguement there. but the mods aren't going to make you pull.

[EuroB6]

as we can see, it's definitely not the same...still wont stop me from modding though :)

[b00st]

as we can see, it's definitely not the same...still wont stop me from modding though :)

and i say happy modding. this isn't intended to stop anyone for modding. MLR loves his mods. but he agrees that it just doesn't show up in the real world. on the street. we know it did something. it does change the drivers experience by doing these mods. but i don't want people to make the mistake thinking that they are faster than stock or that their high 13s 1/4 mile will now become low 13s because i bought all this stuff.

all i'm saying is...his 15whp more or 25whp more...doesn't make him faster than me on the street. sure when we dyno...he will dyno higher than me. what we see on the street is that he is sitting right next to me.

cheers,

KEVIN

[Bpitz15]

why dont u drive his car and let him drive yours... see if its driver error

[Race Shooter]

I'll say the same thing I said last time. This is no way to make any kinds of judgments on what mods will or will not do. This is so completely unscientific its not even funny. There are all kinds of variables that you are not taking into account.

The ONLY thing that is for real is testing one car, before and after under the same exact conditions. You need the same driver driving the same car and you need all other aspects of the car to be exactly the same.

At what point were each of you shifting? Are you sure you both shifted at the exact same rpm? Are you sure that shifting at those same rpms are just as effective with both cars (a chipped car may react differently than a stock car at certain shift points)?

What wheels were on each car? What brakes were on each car? Remember, lower rotational weight of wheels and brake systems can lead to more or less hp put to the road.

I'm not saying that in everyday use you're going to see night and day differences with these mods, you're not. But living my life around racing cars, I know that 25 whp can and will make a difference in the speed of cars. Hell, last weekend I was with someone that was able to decipher his telemetry and realize he was down about 10 HP. He did that because he was getting pulled on the straights by all the other cars on the track, even when coming off the last corner faster, and they were all supposed to be running the same spec engines. 10 hp causing him to be pulled on a straight. So you can bet that 25 whp can and should make a difference.

The entire way of testing like that is flawed and to make and final judgments based on that kind of testing is silly. I cant begin to explain exactly why you are getting the results you are, but I can say the testing is flawed and isnt giving you any "real world" results at all.

However, if you're looking for major and noticeable changes with easy bolt on mods, you did buy the wrong vehicle.

[ieatfishburitos]

You should take all three cars to a drag strip.. Have 1 driver make a few runs in each car, this should remove the individual drivers from the equation (maybe your a hell of a good shifter and the others aren't?). You can subtract the reaction time from each run and see the results. I bet there will be some difference in the times.

Don't get me wrong, I find your results very interesting and think you may be on to something :) Thanks again for all the info you've posted so far.

[b00st]

I'll say the same thing I said last time. This is no way to make any kinds of judgments on what mods will or will not do. This is so completely unscientific its not even funny. There are all kinds of variables that you are not taking into account.

The ONLY thing that is for real is testing one car, before and after under the same exact conditions. You need the same driver driving the same car and you need all other aspects of the car to be exactly the same.

At what point were each of you shifting? Are you sure you both shifted at the exact same rpm? Are you sure that shifting at those same rpms are just as effective with both cars (a chipped car may react differently than a stock car at certain shift points)?

What wheels were on each car? What brakes were on each car? Remember, lower rotational weight of wheels and brake systems can lead to more or less hp put to the road.

I'm not saying that in everyday use you're going to see night and day differences with these mods, you're not. But living my life around racing cars, I know that 25 whp can and will make a difference in the speed of cars. Hell, last weekend I was with someone that was able to decipher his telemetry and realize he was down about 10 HP. He did that because he was getting pulled on the straights by all the other cars on the track, even when coming off the last corner faster, and they were all supposed to be running the same spec engines. 10 hp causing him to be pulled on a straight. So you can bet that 25 whp can and should make a difference.

The entire way of testing like that is flawed and to make and final judgments based on that kind of testing is silly. I cant begin to explain exactly why you are getting the results you are, but I can say the testing is flawed and isnt giving you any "real world" results at all.

However, if you're looking for major and noticeable changes with easy bolt on mods, you did buy the wrong vehicle.

tell you what...there is no scientific way to test and compare to different cars.

as all have said including yourself...with these mods...then 25whp should be able to pull. and clearly thats not the case. i've run 2 different cars with 2 different mods. two different drivers. and the results are the same. with many many runs. none of which yielded anyone gaining on them. and technically if you really want to know i was ahead most of the time and the modded cars were behind from the initial jump off on the honk. i would pull out ahead. it seemed my car would react quicker than theirs and then the cars held. so technically i would faster if we are looking at it that way. i was looking at it from the stretch. and we ran has high as 4th gear 7000rpms...i believe that is plenty of stretch for the proven more powerful car to at least do a little pulling. if we are talking the long straight here.

i didn't buy this car for with caring about the aftermarket world and bolt-ons. i've known about this car. nor do i care what you think to be honest.

and if you have higher exit speeds than everyone else...during that straight if they are spec engines you should be able to hold you lead if at the worst the would pull even with you on the next turn and then you pass them with your brilliant turning.

and how did you derive that you are down 10HP...you sure its not 11HP or 20HP? was this done scientifically? perhaps the track dyno and everyone hopped on and your car happen to be dyno the lowest....thats the only scientific way i could any way you could make a statement. somehow i doubt that happened.

my situation is REAL WORLD. this is what happened on the street...doesn't get more real than that. again most people act as if i care. i don't. i never thought these mods gave gains...other than on the dyno and i'm right. if you are anyone else wants to buy these mods...feel free. i don't care. if you don't buy them i don't care.

S4 pulls to redline. it makes its peak 340HP @ 7000rpm. where else would you shift? this car makes it as simple as it can be. 7000rpms....shift. for him he did has at 7500. techincally if you look at his dyno it looks like peak HP is at 6500rpms. but the difference betwen his peak and redline as you can see isn't much a few HP. he has the same typical dip at the 5000rpm range that you see on dyno charts. so between 6500 and 7500...i can't quiet see it but the difference is neglible. and if 6500 is really peak than thats probably mine also and i should be shifting there.

he has 18" RS4 reps with stock calipers/brakes
i have the stock 18" avus with stock calipers/brakes
we both only had ourselves in the car.
he has suspension and sway bars...i have nothing. maybe he dropped weight there...his exhaust is lighter than mine. we know that.

[b00st]

You should take all three cars to a drag strip.. Have 1 driver make a few runs in each car, this should remove the individual drivers from the equation (maybe your a hell of a good shifter and the others aren't?). You can subtract the reaction time from each run and see the results. I bet there will be some difference in the times.

Don't get me wrong, I find your results very interesting and think you may be on to something :) Thanks again for all the info you've posted so far.

i understand this point. but in the end it would be very neglible...if i felt he was "granny shifting" i would have intervined to say lets switch cars. but when you can see someone sitting on your door...and they don't move from there...i think both drivers are shifting rather quick. cuz at shift points...he didn't gain. actually nobody from all 3 cars gained nothing or lost anything when shifting. when looking at all 3 cars and 3 different drivers.

all the results should is that we are even. on the dyno MLR's car has got about 15awhp over me. but we see that its just not making anything on the street.

i believe TEK4EVER ran a 13.7 here in IL. MLR is going to BYRON on the 10th i think. lets see what he runs. and since these runs are on different days...TEK ran in Joliet, IL. MLR is going to Byron, IL. which are kinda far from each other. These runs are hardly comparable either. but if he ran a 13.7 or 13.6. all the variables between different days and the tracks...drivers, etc etc. makes it hard to say anything about the car as well or do we say that if he runs a 13.7...there is no gain assuming his 60ft and everything line up with TEK's? (fish this isn't directed at you) just a general question to throw out there.

i'm only saying what i see. this is my experience. and you can discard this or take whatever you want from this.

[b00st]

my job and all i'm doing is playing devil's advocate.

someone asked me to run someone else. i ran someone with full exhaust and custom tune. instead of running my brother and switching cars. funny thing is i got the same result. its kinda hard to over look it. considering the races are done by holding a certain mph...the job is to hit the gas...you don't have to pick gears. we arleady agreed during each run which gear we were to use. so you'd just have to shift about 2 times for the most part. and nobody lagged behind when it came to that...i would have seen it.

[ZONAWILDCATS4]

The entire way of testing like that is flawed and to make and final judgments based on that kind of testing is silly. I cant begin to explain exactly why you are getting the results you are.

You say this sort of testing is silly...but then you can't explain the results...I think the results explain themselves.

[Tek4ever]

Nobody can say I wish somebody would have reported real world results after an ECU tune and exhaust change. b00st is definitely contributing to AZ.

/cheer
/salute

[b00st]

Nobody can say I wish somebody would have reported real world results after an ECU tune and exhaust change. b00st is definitely contributing to AZ.

/cheer
/salute

i've been a member of this forum for a long time. folks know me well on the B5 A4 forum, as i was a huge boost junkie and never thought i'd drive NA, so i didn't pop my head in here as much.

i'm never one to bullshit or try and post garbage. i'm just calling it how i see it and no more. if you don't like my results. i'm ok with it. i'm just passing along my experience it as simple as that. people felt maybe my brother car didn't take well to mods...or he was shifting slow or wrong shift points. well we raced stock with same results. now i race someone with full exhaust and custom tune...and shows on the dyno for proof his is putting 15awhp more than my car and he still is the same as mine.

i went to the lexus performance driving academy today...i'm embarassed to even call myself a driver compared to these guys. one of the best experiences i had. and the pro taking me in the IS-F for a hot lap was pure insanity! and its truely a bad ass car without question.