Innovate Motorsports WideBand O2 Install

[ThePaintballGuy]

Has anyone ever installed one of these before? If so how do you wire it into the ECU so I don't get a check engine light? Any help/links would be excellent.

Here is a link to the sensor:

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/products/lc1.php

And here is a picture of it:


Thanks!

Josh

P.S. I have already bought this and it is here at my house so please don't just tell me to get a different one. LOL

[The_Jerbel]

You don't wire it into the ECU at all. There won't be any CEL. You just give the unit power and ground and calibrate the unit. Then install the O2 sensor in an extra bung in the driver's side dp just before the primary cat. Wrap the wiring and unit in heat wrap. Run the wiring through the firewall where the ECU wiring goes into the car. Solder the ground wire to a eye-hole connector and ground it to the fuse box mounting bracket using one of the bolts. Give it power using the 75x terminal under the relay panel. Done.

[ThePaintballGuy]

Wait... So I will have the normal O2 sensor in the drivers side PLUS this one? So I will need another bung welded onto the exhaust system? Uhh... I didn't know that. LOL

Josh

[infinkc]

Wait... So I will have the normal O2 sensor in the drivers side PLUS this one? So I will need another bung welded onto the exhaust system? Uhh... I didn't know that. LOL

Josh

yea its best to run it standalone, you need another bung welded, it should have came with one and a plug. there is a way to integrate it but i believe the innovate only have a 1 wire output from its unit to feedback to the car.

[JackalS4]

You don't wire it into the ECU at all. There won't be any CEL. You just give the unit power and ground and calibrate the unit. Then install the O2 sensor in an extra bung in the driver's side dp just before the primary cat. Wrap the wiring and unit in heat wrap. Run the wiring through the firewall where the ECU wiring goes into the car. Solder the ground wire to a eye-hole connector and ground it to the fuse box mounting bracket using one of the bolts. Give it power using the 75x terminal under the relay panel. Done.

Well said!

Definitely wise & ultimately more simple to create the extra bung solely for the wideband.

[JayyyyyC]

I just found out that the k03 chip I might get has the o2 sensors coded out. So, does this mean that I can rip out my old failing pre-cat o2 sensors, and just use one of the bungs for the Innovate setup and have the other extra bung plugged?

[ThePaintballGuy]

Hmm... ok I will have to see if i can get a shop, or the shop thats working on my car now to do that for me... how hard is it to get the DP's out w/out taking the motor out? I have a tip tranny so i know there is not much room in there.

josh

[infinkc]

most places can weld the bung in there without removing the pipe

[archimense]

I just found out that the k03 chip I might get has the o2 sensors coded out. So, does this mean that I can rip out my old failing pre-cat o2 sensors, and just use one of the bungs for the Innovate setup and have the other extra bung plugged?

The chip will remove the need for the POST-CAT O2 sensors. Your car needs the pre-cat O2 sensors in order to run in part throttle closed loop mode.

If you install your wideband O2 in the unsued post-cat bungs, your AFR readings will be inaccurate, because the exhaust has already gone through the cat.

You need to weld in another bung, upstream of any catalytic converters.

[The_Jerbel]

I just found out that the k03 chip I might get has the o2 sensors coded out. So, does this mean that I can rip out my old failing pre-cat o2 sensors, and just use one of the bungs for the Innovate setup and have the other extra bung plugged?

It is best to have the WB sensor located before the primary cat, if you are using cats. If you have gutted both the pre-cats and the primary cats, then it doesn't much matter where you put the sensor.

So, if you still have cats, then no, you shouldn't put the WB sensor where the secondary O2 sensor used to be. The reason that the car was designed with primary and secondary O2 sensors, is that they are supposed to read differently if your cats are working properly. You want the WB to be reading as closely as possible to what your primary O2 sensors are reading. You should either gut the cats or have both the old bungs plugged and a new one welded in before the main cat.

[The_Jerbel]

most places can weld the bung in there without removing the pipe

That would be some serious talent if they can weld in a new bung before the primary cat with the dp still in the car...

[ms4cd]

You don't wire it into the ECU at all. There won't be any CEL. You just give the unit power and ground and calibrate the unit. Then install the O2 sensor in an extra bung in the driver's side dp just before the primary cat. Wrap the wiring and unit in heat wrap. Run the wiring through the firewall where the ECU wiring goes into the car. Solder the ground wire to a eye-hole connector and ground it to the fuse box mounting bracket using one of the bolts. Give it power using the 75x terminal under the relay panel. Done.

Why driver side downpipe? I presume either would work.

I installed mine through the shifter boot opening. The unit fits very nice inside the shifter opening. I ran the wires to the x75 and grounded it as well.

For some reason mine needs calibration all the time.

[The_Jerbel]

Yup either would work. I said driver's side because it's easier to feed the wires up to the ECU box without running the wiring about the dp's or exhaust mani's.

The shifter boot opening is a good idea. It would just take some extra effort to conceal the wiring and WB unit going from the shifter area to the dash. Good idea though

Perhaps your sensor is fouled. Try taking it out and cleaning it.

[JayyyyyC]

It is best to have the WB sensor located before the primary cat, if you are using cats. If you have gutted both the pre-cats and the primary cats, then it doesn't much matter where you put the sensor.

So, if you still have cats, then no, you shouldn't put the WB sensor where the secondary O2 sensor used to be. The reason that the car was designed with primary and secondary O2 sensors, is that they are supposed to read differently if your cats are working properly. You want the WB to be reading as closely as possible to what your primary O2 sensors are reading. You should either gut the cats or have both the old bungs plugged and a new one welded in before the main cat.

Thanks for the info. OP, sorry for the hijack, but one more question. I talked to Vast and JHM and both know that I'm returning my brand new pre-cat o2 sensors I bought from Vast because I had found out that their software codes the o2 sensors out. So you're saying that they code the post-cats out?

If that is true, then shouldn't I keep my pre-cat sensors instead of returning them for a credit? Also, I purcahsed the SSAC turbo back exhaust, and as you may know, it doesn't come with a cat, and I don't plan on running any. How do our cars run healthy if those pre-cat o2 sensors are so vital?

[archimense]

Thanks for the info. OP, sorry for the hijack, but one more question. I talked to Vast and JHM and both know that I'm returning my brand new pre-cat o2 sensors I bought from Vast because I had found out that their software codes the o2 sensors out. So you're saying that they code the post-cats out?

If that is true, then shouldn't I keep my pre-cat sensors instead of returning them for a credit? Also, I purcahsed the SSAC turbo back exhaust, and as you may know, it doesn't come with a cat, and I don't plan on running any. How do our cars run healthy if those pre-cat o2 sensors are so vital?

The ECU needs an O2 sensor input for the passenger side and the driver side. The O2 sensor signals need to go into the pre-cat O2 sensor inputs in the ECU.

If you get software that removes the need to run post-cat O2 sensors, then you don't need them, otherwise you do.

If you will not have any cats in your car, then you can install the O2 sensors anywhere, as long as they plug into the pre-cat O2 sensor inputs in the ECU.

At full throttle the engine runs in open loop mode using the sensors in the engine to determine the air fuel ratio. At partial throttle the engine runs in closed loop mode using the sensors in the engine AND the O2 sensors to determine the air fuel ratio.

Post-cat O2 sensors are ONLY used to determine if the catalytic converter is working properly. Pre-cat O2 sensors are used to keep the air fuel ratio correct.

I would be VERY surprised if the VAST/JHM software removes the need for all four O2 sensors.

[JayyyyyC]

My CEL for the pre-cat o2 sensors is intermittent. It comes and goes when it likes, and it actually seems to come on during more "cold" weather days. So does this mean that the whole time, my car has been running either rich or lean with those two fouled pre-cate sensors?

[The_Jerbel]

The ECU needs an O2 sensor input for the passenger side and the driver side. The O2 sensor signals need to go into the pre-cat O2 sensor inputs in the ECU.

If you get software that removes the need to run post-cat O2 sensors, then you don't need them, otherwise you do.

If you will not have any cats in your car, then you can install the O2 sensors anywhere, as long as they plug into the pre-cat O2 sensor inputs in the ECU.

At full throttle the engine runs in open loop mode using the sensors in the engine to determine the air fuel ratio. At partial throttle the engine runs in closed loop mode using the sensors in the engine AND the O2 sensors to determine the air fuel ratio.

Post-cat O2 sensors are ONLY used to determine if the catalytic converter is working properly. Pre-cat O2 sensors are used to keep the air fuel ratio correct.

I would be VERY surprised if the VAST/JHM software removes the need for all four O2 sensors.

This is very well written and very informative, and ALMOST entirely correct. The only thing I would add is that at WOT (open loop) the AFR is determined entirely off of the fueling maps written into the software (injector on time, and requested duty cycle), and is only reliant on sensors such as the EGT sensors, knock sensors, etc.
At partial throttle the ECU maintains stoich (AFR of 14.7) based off of the info received by the ECU from the narrowband primary O2 sensors (pre-cat).

Just to simplify the answer, you absolutely NEED your primary (pre-cat) O2 sensors. If your software has them coded out, you don't need your secondary (post-cat) sensors.

[The_Jerbel]

My CEL for the pre-cat o2 sensors is intermittent. It comes and goes when it likes, and it actually seems to come on during more "cold" weather days. So does this mean that the whole time, my car has been running either rich or lean with those two fouled pre-cate sensors?

That depends on the code. What exactly does the code say?

[archimense]

My CEL for the pre-cat o2 sensors is intermittent. It comes and goes when it likes, and it actually seems to come on during more "cold" weather days. So does this mean that the whole time, my car has been running either rich or lean with those two fouled pre-cate sensors?

That depends on the code. What exactly does the code say?

Yup, depends on the code.

But if you are getting pre-cat O2 sensor error codes, then you can bet you are not running the best air fuel ratio you can.

[JayyyyyC]

That depends on the code. What exactly does the code say?

Something about resistance too high on both B1 and B2 pre-cat o2 sensors. The exact code I'm getting is:

#17539 - O2 sensor B2 S1 Internal resistance too high P1131 - 35-10
#17521 - O2 sensor B1 S1 Internal resistance too high P1113 - 35 - 10

[ThePaintballGuy]

Hey thanks for all the information about this guys. This really helps me out.

josh

[The_Jerbel]

Something about resistance too high on both B1 and B2 pre-cat o2 sensors. The exact code I'm getting is:

#17539 - O2 sensor B2 S1 Internal resistance too high P1131 - 35-10
#17521 - O2 sensor B1 S1 Internal resistance too high P1113 - 35 - 10

Dead sensors. Throw those pre-cat sensors in.