Third gear grinding

[Glassnpowder98]

Over the weekend, I was taking some back roads pushing the car a little bit. I went to shift from 5th to 3rd bringing the RPM's close to 4k. I had the clutch fully depressed and when I went to put it in 3rd, I got some grinding and then it went into gear... with my transmission, if i'm starting out of gear, when I go to put it in gear, you can feel a touch (barely any) of resistance right when you start pushing it towards a gear and then it grabs the gear. I am assuming this is how everyone's manual transmission feels. The problem was occuring right when you would normally start to feel the little bit of resistance.

Anyways, I kept driving (I was on the way to my families lake house) and the problem continued 4 out of 5 times trying to downshift into 3rd. I also tried upshifting from 2nd to 3rd four times and the same thing happened only once. Like I said, it was a short grind and then the gear would engage. So I made an appointment to bring my car to the dealership on Monday. When I was driving home from the lake on Sunday, I tested it and the problem occurred twice, both while downshifting. I proceeded to skip third for most of the rest of my trip home. When I got closer to home, I tried to see if the problem was still going on. It was GONE! Since then, I have put about 50-60 miles of city driving on the car constantly going up and down through the gears and I have not had any problems. Consequently, I cancelled my service appointment because I did not want to be without a car or pay for them to take apart my tranny just so that they could tell me nothing is wrong.

Does anyone know what might have happened to my car? Any tips other than just waiting and hoping it doesn't come back? I only have 25k miles on it although I have ground third probably about 5 or 6 times trying to quick shift and not depressing the clutch all the way. I did buy the car used with about 15k miles on it and have no clue how it was driven prior to my ownership. Thanks for any of the help/suggestions you guys can come up with.

[A4addict]

It's pretty normal for VW/Audi cars. I had the same thing with my old MK4, and it also happens occasionally with my B7. I wouldn't worry too much about it.

If you're absolutely annoyed by the grinding at 3rd gear, there is a certain maneuver with your shift knob from 2nd to 3rd that avoids the grinding. You just have to trial and error it, and master it to a point to where it becomes a habit.

[Glassnpowder98]

Thanks for the response. I hope it's not really a regular occurrance because a couple of the times it happened, it "shocked" me pretty good. I'm really not trying to have my 3rd gear ground down from it happening a lot...

[B7!]

Thanks for the response. I hope it's not really a regular occurrance because a couple of the times it happened, it "shocked" me pretty good. I'm really not trying to have my 3rd gear ground down from it happening a lot...

well i had third gear grinding and it cost me AUD$4000 to get 1st and 3rd replaced as my syncro snapped and tore 1st and 3rd apart

[gyroscope]

Shifting from 5th to 3rd on these transmissions is a good way to bend your synchros. Next time go 5-4-3. Thats how it's designed to be driven.

[INTEGRATION]

I think there may be something off about the 3rd gear synchro in general. I mis-shift now and then from 2nd into 3rd while undertaking hard cornering. I know that the gear ratio gap between 2nd to 3rd is pretty tall but not syncing while up-shifting is kind of weird.

[joec500]

Meh...just double clutch

[INTEGRATION]

Meh...just double clutch

Double-clutch when up-shifting?

[Tiesto]

Shifting from 5th to 3rd on these transmissions is a good way to bend your synchros. Next time go 5-4-3. Thats how it's designed to be driven.

Is it bad to shift from 5-3 if you're slowing down a lot to make a turn and the rpms only jump back up to ~2,000 rpm?

[Glassnpowder98]

I do try and match the revs by double clutching (someone once told me it's not double clutching but rev matching?) during everyday driving but when I'm pushing the car I hate to lose that braking distance. I guess I should just learn how to time it a little better or learn how to heel-toe it. Haha the first and only time I have tried to heel-toe the brake/gas ended up with me stalling real bad (I was only going about 5-10 mph when I tried it). Oh well... live and learn, at $4k every bad fuck up. haha

[Awulf]

Hey uh, you aren't actually using your heel are you? Just left side of right foot on brake and right side on gas right? Uh and yes, our gear boxes would rather be put through all the gears if only for a split second. I can do the 5-2 shift in like two seconds or so all the while standing on the brake with the left side of the right foot. Some folks do report difficulty in the 2-3 at higher RPM, but since I adjusted the location of the bolt (forward) on the shift linkage it has been much better. Although I still have to pump the clutch once or put the car in 2nd than 1st at a light. I don't know but I'm thinking the clutch may have something to do with this. Especially on my Quattro.

[Glassnpowder98]

The one time that I actually tried to do it I did try to use the heel and toe... I hadn't read anything about exactly how to do this method, it just kind of came up in conversation with my friend while talking about "double clutching." I decided to give it a shot and it didn't work out too well haha. Now that I know the right and left side of the foot method, I'll have to try that out.

[gyroscope]

Is it bad to shift from 5-3 if you're slowing down a lot to make a turn and the rpms only jump back up to ~2,000 rpm?

Moving the gear lever in a U pattern from 5th to the 3rd puts unessecsary stress on the synchros. I value the smooth gear transitions of my transmission and accordingly always shift in straight lines. If I wanted rapid fire shifting for the track or the twisties I'd have bought a GTi or R32 with DSG.

[pure289]

would 3rd gear grinding be covered under warrantee??

[jojogoya88]

would 3rd gear grinding be covered under warrantee??

I wonder this too, for the last 3 days my 3rd gear has been grinding every 3 out of 5 times when i either downshift or upshift into the gear. I havent spoke to audi about it at all, but its a horrible feeling ive been getting.

especially on WOT, and i shift hard into 3rd, its the most agonizing sound ever. but even if im slowly shifting into 3rd at low rpm, it resists/grings a bit.


any clue guys>? what would audi say?

[AudiWxGuy]

As long as you revmatch you can from 5 to 3 w/out a problem, as long as you as your not going faster than third gear will allow. When you drive an Auto tranny and step on the gas, the car takes a second, finds the right gear and puts the tranny in that gear and you go. It does not go....5-4-3(RIGHT GEAR).

[jojogoya88]

yeah i always rev match, its almost natural to me to do it. i dont drive auto, im a 6sp dude

[Subaru71]

I do try and match the revs by double clutching (someone once told me it's not double clutching but rev matching?) during everyday driving but when I'm pushing the car I hate to lose that braking distance. I guess I should just learn how to time it a little better or learn how to heel-toe it. Haha the first and only time I have tried to heel-toe the brake/gas ended up with me stalling real bad (I was only going about 5-10 mph when I tried it). Oh well... live and learn, at $4k every bad fuck up. haha

if you don't rev match going from 5th to 3rd, its pretty normal that it would grind like that.. syncros aren't magicians... that being said, you should probably go 5-4-3 anyway like someone above said..

[Alkemix]

I don't think this is technically downshifting, but what about when you're braking, then want to get into the right gear to go again... so say you're doing 65 (5th gear) and slowed down to 30 mph using the brakes... you should be in 3rd gear to get into the proper torque range to start accelearting again, so then you wouldn't shift down to 4 then to 3... you would shift right into 3 from 5... right?

Also, when truly downshifting/engine braking/ or dropping gear to accelerate WOT, is it more appropriate to:

clutch, drop 1 gear, match revs, then release clutch

OR

clutch, match revs, drop 1 gear, release clutch?

Or does it not even matter?

[Jmaak]

When my car is cold, I always double clutch the upshift. It takes more time but it never grinds. if i just shift regularly it will always grind when cold.

[Geoffafa]

third gear grinding is common in our cars... im pretty sure the shifting of the tranny forward had something to do with it when u let off the throttle... nothing an uprgraded tranny mount cant fix

[Glassnpowder98]

I don't think this is technically downshifting, but what about when you're braking, then want to get into the right gear to go again... so say you're doing 65 (5th gear) and slowed down to 30 mph using the brakes... you should be in 3rd gear to get into the proper torque range to start accelearting again, so then you wouldn't shift down to 4 then to 3... you would shift right into 3 from 5... right?

Also, when truly downshifting/engine braking/ or dropping gear to accelerate WOT, is it more appropriate to:

clutch, drop 1 gear, match revs, then release clutch

OR

clutch, match revs, drop 1 gear, release clutch?

Or does it not even matter?

First of all this thread is pretty old and I haven't had this problem occur again. However, I haven't really driven hard for an extended period of time either. Also, I have been rev matching pretty much every downshift and have gotten pretty good at the heel/toe (ball and side of the foot).

In regards to the above quote... The proper way to do it is...

Clutch, disengage gear, release clutch, match revs, clutch, engage gear, release clutch.

It gets pretty interesting when you throw braking with the ball of your foot into the equation... But with practice, it isn't too hard.

With all of that being said, I will be going to the track on the 20th for the first time with my local chapter of ACNA. We will see if I can put it all together and have some fun

[Alkemix]

Clutch, disengage gear, release clutch, match revs, clutch, engage gear, release clutch.

I am confused. Are people actually double clutching? I thought the advent of the synchro (or something else very common in all modern manual gearboxes) made double clutching completely unecessary for over a decade at least.

Is the double clutching simply a preference? Does it help preserve the tranny?

Here is a heel-toe vid if you're interested. Now this is heel-toe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkOPmnmIAfc

[Glassnpowder98]

^^^ From my understanding, yes the synchros make it possible to not have to double clutch. However, the stress that used to be caused to the gears is now being transferred to the synchros instead. So, most people double clutch to in order to prevent wear to their synchros especially under very spirited driving.

[scoobycarolan]

Glasspowders last post was right. My 2 B6s were tips, but since going to a 6sp B7 I had to learn to double clutch (not heel toe) for down shifts. I frequently skip gears where prudent and have no issues. Now if first & second engadged properly... Ah, there's a million posts on that already....

[AudiWxGuy]

Double clutching is not necessary anymore. As long as you rev-match you're all good.

[Glassnpowder98]

^^^ aren't double clutching and rev matching the same? Or is rev matching giving gas with the clutch depressed but still in gear instead of releasing the clutch in neutral giving gas and then engaging clutch and downshifting?

A little less confusing:

Rev matching - clutch, match revs, drop 1 gear, release clutch?

Double Clutch - Clutch, disengage gear, release clutch, match revs, clutch, engage gear, release clutch?

^^^Is that right?

I thought that doing it the "rev matching" way isn't as good for the tranny as "double clutching" because your car is still technically "in gear?"

Does anyone know what they're actually talking about?!? Because I'm definitely confused now... and I think I did it to myself

[AudiWxGuy]

When you push the clutch in, the car is no longer in gear. The tranny and engine are no longer engaged with one another. The car is in gear, when a gear is selected and you do not have the clutch depressed.

Rev matching is this...say your in 5th. You want to pass someone. You clutch, put the car in the gear you want, rev the gas and release the clutch. So, you can go from 5 to 3 w/out a heavy jerk forward.

[Alkemix]

Rev matching - clutch, match revs, drop 1 gear, release clutch?

^Yes.

Double Clutch - Clutch, disengage gear, release clutch, match revs, clutch, engage gear, release clutch?

^^^Is that right?

Yes.

I thought that doing it the "rev matching" way isn't as good for the tranny as "double clutching" because your car is still technically "in gear?"

Does anyone know what they're actually talking about?!? Because I'm definitely confused now... and I think I did it to myself

It's good for your engine/tranny to match revs regardless of whether you've depressed the clutch once or twice. The purpose of rev-matching is to reduce stress/wear on your engine and tranny, regardless of whether you're single or double clutching. If you properly match revs (single clutch) and your car switches gears seamlessly with no jerks or noticeable transition, then there is very little stress put on your synchros. The problem is that if you are skipping gears when downshifting, and your shift is anything less than perfect, then you will definitely smell some burnt tranny fluid.

[Glassnpowder98]

Thanks for clearing that up... I remember reading somewhere that you are not technically out of gear if the clutch is in and you have a gear selected and therefore it's still putting some stress on your tranny when you go to rev match. I guess that was wrong and from that video posted above, it looks like he is rev matching with the clutch depressed and with a gear selected. Definitely seems like an easier and more efficient way of doing it.

[Alkemix]

Also, it's probably easier to downshift while single clutching, because when double clutching, the rpms drop to near idle and that makes it more difficult to find the right rpm for the proper gear, and also means more time on the gas pedal (while in neutral), which anyone who downshifts a lot knows, the longer you stay on the gas pedal the more fk'd up your shift will be. You will get more perfect shifts with single clutching.

Take a look at that video. They do a lot of down shifting and heel-toe action too. It's a very informative video and there are more from the same people to study up on. I'd leave the heel-toe at home when you hit the track though. It's a misconception that people can just heel-toe. It's actually a pretty difficult maneuver that, if executed poorly, can make you a hazard on the road. Not just to yourself, but to others as well.

[Glassnpowder98]

Yeah, I've been heel-toeing basically everytime I downshift while needing to brake since I first started this thread, so I've gotten pretty decent at it. However, I can see where it could pose a danger on the track with your foot sliding off the brake (which happened a good amount when I was first starting). Hopefully I'll be able to seamlessly transfer the heel-toe street driving to the track so that I can post faster lap times, decrease wear to my synchros and avoid the grinding that seems to only occur if I'm driving hard and not rev matching.

The only problem that I still have with heel-toeing is sometimes if I break hard, I'm slow to shift and get on the gas, so my revs are real low. But I guess using this new technique will make things go a little quicker. Also, the revs being low is sometimes due to regular driving conditions driving around at 2-3k rpms instead of track conditions in which you would want to stay above 4k rpms. But I guess we will see what happens when I get to the track...

[a4dc89]

it is beyond unnecessary to double clutch on a transmission with syncros

[Vorsprung]

I can't heel-toe for the life of me in this car.

[AudiWxGuy]

Try it barefoot. Makes it easier. I haven't had the time to try it for a long period of time. But the times I've tried, barefoot works best. You can feel the peddle that way.

[Glassnpowder98]

I can't heel-toe for the life of me in this car.

The way that I usually do it is place my big toe/ball of the inside of my foot on the brake and then roll my foot so that the other half of my foot is tapping the gas. It's kinda tough at first, but with practice you can get pretty smooth with it. At first just try to concentrate on keeping the brake pressure even with your big toe and don't worry too much about the gas pedal. You will get the feel for it after some practice.

I also found this quote from Wiki the other day and thought it was pretty interesting/funny and it is probably the reason why it is harder for some people to heel-toe...

This decline in sales was not helped in the USA by a 60 Minutes report which purported to show that Audi automobiles suffered from "unintended acceleration". The 60 Minutes report was based on customer reports of acceleration when the brake pedal was pushed. Independent investigators concluded that this was most likely due to a close placement of the accelerator and brake pedals (unlike American cars), and the inability, when not paying attention, to distinguish between the two. (In race cars, when manually downshifting under heavy braking, the accelerator has to be used in order to match revs properly, so both pedals have to be close to each other to be operated by the right foot at once, toes on the brake, heel on the accelerator; a driving technique called heel-and-toe). This did not become an issue in Europe, possibly due to more widespread experience among European drivers with manual transmissions.
60 Minutes allegedly ignored this fact, and some claim rigged a car to perform in an uncontrolled manner. The report immediately crushed Audi sales, and Audi renamed the affected model (The 5000 became the 100/200 in 1989, as it was elsewhere). Audi had contemplated withdrawing from the American market until sales began to recover in the mid-1990s. The turning point for Audi was the sale of the new A4 in 1996, and with the release of the A4/A6/A8 series, which was developed together with VW and other sister brands (so called "platforms").

[Alkemix]

The report immediately crushed Audi sales, and Audi renamed the affected model (The 5000 became the 100/200 in 1989, as it was elsewhere). Audi had contemplated withdrawing from the American market until sales began to recover in the mid-1990s.

Hence the saying "I'm Outtie 5000!" I'm not sure if people want this thread to die, but this thing came back from the dead stronger than ever. Anyways... thanks for all the feedback peoples. I actually just went on a 2 hour drive to hash out all my shifting issues on my own and I think MUCH progress was made.

[Glassnpowder98]

haha yeah... This thread is like Bruce Willis in Die Hard, just keeps coming back for more. I have also been practicing the rev matching without double clutching. It's definitely a lot easier and quicker. It just seems a little harder to match the revs up perfectly since I'm not real used to it yet.

[Glassnpowder98]

Well this thread is back for another round... After this weekend, my transmission started to act up again so I brought it into the dealer. When my service advisor tried to file a warrantee claim with AoA, apparently they asked for pictures of the car. Upon sending pictures, AoA voided my warrantee due to my intake and diverter valve saying that the transmission cannot handle the increased hp/tq. Is it even possible for more power to mess up the synchros? Especially the minimal/if any gains that a carbonio intake makes. I am not too sure how transmissions work, but I wouldn't think that the stress wouldn't be placed on the synchro's, but more so on the actual teeth of the transmission... Any help or suggestions are greatly appreciated in my quest to try and challenge AoA...

Also, for future reference to anyone bringing their car in for warrantee work... Make sure you take of any and all mods to be sure your warrantee is not voided. My service advisor said that they have been cracking down real hard lately. I guess AoA figures that they can cut costs in this struggling economy by not backing up their warrantees... ******s! Edit: Bastards!! So we can't even drop F bombs anymore on this site? Damn, I'm having a horrible day...

[Bmeister]

My service advisor said that they have been cracking down real hard lately. I guess AoA figures that they can cut costs in this struggling economy by not backing up their warrantees... ******s! Edit: Bastards!! So we can't even drop F bombs anymore on this site? Damn, I'm having a horrible day...

VAG designed and built a car within daily-use tolerances (granted, with a well-engineered buffer) and warrants the car based on that standard. When customers mod the car to extremes and break something, why should VAG be responsible to pay for a repair? Although you did not mod your car to extremes, how would VAG know that you didn't if they can see you already tampered with it? That you only had an intake and DV is not the issue; In VAG's responsible assumption, they probably surmise that "if a customer mods the car for performance/power, they must beat the car beyond its design threshold..." thereby affecting the transmission...in you case.

VAG probably lost a lot of money on warranty repairs from people pushing their cars beyond reasonable limits and because of that we get the strict policy that you just experienced firsthand.

While I agree with your point, that just a DV and intake themselves don't affect the transmission directly, how does VAG know you have no other mods or that you did not drive your car beyond its design threshold? They have a business to run, shareholders to report to, and are taking a prudent stand against owner modifications that hurt the bottom line. I ran into this with BMW, Porsche and GM over the years with some minor and some major powertrain mods, so it isn't just VAG.