Tiptronic + giac Fx = Kickdown Problem

[mz3bo]

Hi,

As much as I love the Giac Fx and bigger injector, I just found my car to be very erractic and undriveable on the highway, especially. When I drive at a steady 60mph, my car is on the 5th gear. As soon as I accelerate, the tranny will step to 4th and 1 second after, into 3rd. It feels like a train is hitting me in the back and making it very annoying. No mather how lightly i hit the gaz pedal, iw will double kickdown like crazy. When I put the car in sport, it will go from 5th to 3rd without going trough 4th, wich make it feels better, but still.... Is there a way I can tell the tranny " hey, you've got enought power in 4th to go, If I depress harder, then you should go to 3rd..".

I have a vag cable and software 4.xx ... If there is something I can do, please be specific.

Thanks

[K1200GT]

Do a search for recoding the transmission.

[A4TL]

hi you should have bought a manual. go back to stock or get a manual

and this is coming from a stage 1+ tip owner.

no win scenario; there is no fix welcome to the most undrive-able setup evar.

btw this 4 cylinder AWD nissan rogue smokes the FX+/Stage 1+ audi; i've got a rental. its way faster lol. and doesn't do the hokey shifting. sad

[mz3bo]

Do a search for recoding the transmission.

Hi,

so many recoding possible, don't know wich one...

[RLB6]

Code to 0001102 or 0001112 (disables DSP -- might be a better option)

[sailor]

0001112 didn't work very well for me, preferred 0001032 and found 0001012 actually worked best, which is just the stock setting without the DSP. Easy to recode and find what you like for the way you drive. None are going to make the tip work the way you think it should however.

[RLB6]

Until there's TCU chip upgrade available for the B6 platform, the tips will not perform as they should with ECU software upgrades.

[A4TL]

there is no tcu upgrade. people have claimed there is but nobody has ever stepped forward. I bet some one was fooled into paying $500 for a recode on their tiptronic controller lol.

apr knows how to do this they did the RS6, or maybe they just recoded it :)

i love my car but man after driving this cvt i have to say our tiptronic is pure crap with a chip. it is a serious waste unless you are doing a standing 1/4 mile or something. even then it is so dumb it shifts at 6400rpm when the power is game over at 5200rpm, maybe shift at 5500 to get the shift extension to peak whp but nope.

it even downshifts in tiptronic mode and you can't stop it.

I'm just being honest. Others may think its harsh but i've driven this car for the last 3 years and i'm damn tired of the way it shifts. put it back to stock and its far superior in its logic.

makes you wonder if you just run stock (tt225) like mode with a map diode and mbc if it would shift better since it wouldn't see the boost but have the fueling ready lol.

[RLB6]

Not sure what you're experience is but what you're describing is completely different from what my A4 does. I drive in TIP mode, all day long. The only time my car never holds a gear is at triple digits speeds. This is where is kicks back down into 4th, then I have to shift it back into 5th once I'm high enough in the RPM band in 4th. Other than that, it holds any and every gear for as long I want it too.

[JohnnyG]

In just bought a tip b6 a4 and I wanted to do a min. of 1+ performance upgrade but my kickdown activates in tip when I go to wot.... I'm thinking of eliminating the kickdown circuit......anyone try this?
other than wot my auto in tip holds gears till redline...maybe cause the ecm is stock at the moment?

[scorneil]

my giac 1+ is far from perfect but i would never say stock is better.

[A4TL]

dude you have a drive by wire gas pedal, the ecu looks at the start position digitally and the acceleration of the gas pedal is what determines kickdown.

throw your car in "5"th gear and press the gas down all the way at 60mph and tell me what you car does until 80mph.

and we're talking about giac fx/stage1/fx+/stage 1+ chips mate.

[redline_redline]

mine doesnt continually downshift into preceding gears. It will only go from 5th to 4th if im doing 80 and step on the accelerator more than 1/3 of the way. Ive learned to drive with it though and it doesnt really ever happen anymore. Hopefully you can get a feel for it and also learn.

[AudiA4Turbo22]

^^ur trannies are weird, mine never kicks down unless i hit the kickdown i always kick it into tip mode in fifth and just go WOT and it holds all the way, i can hold it in third at 20 and go WOT and it won't downshift, recode it to 000000032 or less zeros! i have it set to 00001012 and it is alright U can never fix it being in drive i seriously wanna do a MT swap but it'd cost more than the value of my car!!!!!! anyone know if i went K04 or BT if this prob would be fixed????

[Four Play]

I'm S1 and don't have any kickdown problems myself, and my drive to/from work consists of driving over both of these bridges.


All I do is move it over to Tip and make sure its in 5th, and it will hold whatever speed I want it to w/o shifting at all. It will cruise up the bridge on the right at 60mph where its barely turning over 2000rpms IIRC, just look at how steep that bitch is!

And I don't know what your talking about A4TL, in 5th gear at 60mph it will just accelerate to 80mph like it should. What does yours do?

[A4TL]

if i press the gas that much it will go down to 4th. whats funny there's a magical on-ramp that i hit then there's a small uphill. well i slow down since cops monitor the on-ramp for hov lane violators. so when i speed back up to merge out of the slow (hov) lane it shifts back and forth between 5 and 4 about 5 times just continuosly. if i modulate the gas down it will stay in 5

[diagnosticator]

if i press the gas that much it will go down to 4th. whats funny there's a magical on-ramp that i hit then there's a small uphill. well i slow down since cops monitor the on-ramp for hov lane violators. so when i speed back up to merge out of the slow (hov) lane it shifts back and forth between 5 and 4 about 5 times just continuosly. if i modulate the gas down it will stay in 5

What is your TCU coding?

[diagnosticator]

I cannot comprehend why neither GIAC or APR is willing to provide the required TCU remap to tip A4s to go with and compliment the ECU upgrade chip. It's a complete mystery to me. APR and GIAC are ignoring this problem, but continue to take our money. I have heard several unofficial/uninformed comments that explain that the trans has fuzzy logic DSP, therefore it self adapts to the increased torque with an engine chip, so there is no need for a TCU remap/chip. It's clear that both GIAC and APR don't test their engine chips with tip cars, but they don't have any difficulty taking our money for products that they claim are developed properly for the tip trans cars.
There IS a solution to the shifting problems with ECU chips, the popular name for this is "tip chip". I don't understand why the market demand is being ignored by the tuners. It doesn't make any sense at all, lost business and angry customers is not a good business model. I would have no problem paying extra for the ECU+TCU chips required to be used together, the current denial of the problem by the tuners, is unacceptable. Everyone who has a tip A4 that has purchased ECU upgrades should complain to the tuners about this problem, if we don't complain, there is no chance it will ever get corrected.

[mz3bo]

Anyone has all the possible coding codes for the trannny ? What does DSP stands for ? I am new to this coding process with vag...

Thanks

[scorneil]

Anyone has all the possible coding codes for the trannny ? What does DSP stands for ? I am new to this coding process with vag...

Thanks

This forum does, search

[diagnosticator]

Anyone has all the possible coding codes for the trannny ? What does DSP stands for ? I am new to this coding process with vag...

Thanks

DSP = "Dynamic Shift Program" aka fuzzy logic transmission control.

Also, see: www.ross-tech.com for coding information.

[A4TL]

diagnosticator: last time i checked it was 000000032 (pad zeros) or 00000002 i forgot. i played with them all with a day of driving to work and back between each one with both street and highway.

the deal is everyone does about 75mph on I75 which can be slight downhill or uphill. the magic # is 80mph on my car where the turbo will kick it and never downshift. below that a high velocity or low velocity jab will make it downshift.

now keep in mind my car does have 104K miles on it so it is likely there are old parts. I've cleaned the MAF which is the #1 signal generator for the transmission.

Also if you guys haven't noticed some chipmakes request more load than others. Ie if one tuner gets their power by requesting 170% load and the other one does it by just requesting 100% load but maps other things to make the boost, perhaps the tcu is considering that as well .I've seen logs that show not all tuners are alike in their method to choose boost.

It would not suprise me that the MAF is wearing out (not failed but not as good as new) after all these years; and i'd be really suprised if there were no boost leaks :) i have a busy schedule and spending a weekend afternoon tracing down leaks versus spending that afternoon with my toddler; well you know.

christ man i have this nissan rogue and i have to tell you their XVT(awd cvt) blows away the a4 stage 1+ APR in acceleration and smoothness. 167bhp 165ft/lb 87 octane 4 banger goes just as fast. I've timed it. matter of fact it feels faster because instead of downshifting in "D" past the powerband of the k03 the XVT just nails the peak power and holds it slowly inching up from 5000 to 5500rpm.

and man smooth when you are modulating the gas it just modulates the gear ratio and rpms to make a perfect transition. That downhill offramp i tested the nissan rogue AWD against the audi and both cars hit the exact same point at 80mph (what i call no man's land since its a FAST LANE ramp; you know where that team of baseball players did the duke's of hazzard, i drive both of those every day). After driving this rogue i'm like wtf where can i get this 87 octane 4 banger with XVT in a german body. I am at a loss for words other than maybe my audi is worn out.

now that i've tasted the poision of nissans combination i am going to really hate the shift logic once i pay this massive repair bill again for the audi.

let me know what you guys thing i'm just about done with automatic's i'd rather just lease a friggen 6 speed or cvt and let them deal with the warranty.

[AudiA4Turbo22]

^^well said, it feels like i just converted to a 6 speed auto, the stupid torque converter is driving me insane, and the passing on the freeway is just stupid!!!! i wanna trade someone for a 6 speed manual! anyone?? and how about if i go K04??

[ttay1977]

Can some tell me if there's any difference in "D" between 0001032 and 0001012?

[sailor]

Can some tell me if there's any difference in "D" between 0001032 and 0001012?

Yes, the shift points are different. How you drive will determine which you prefer.

[02oceanblueA4]

i have a revo stg 1 and i never have this problem...it was alittle tricky at first, but i think its all about your driving style and learning how to control the pedal..haha

[A4TL]

yes the dsp does change "D" in one strategy the car will downshift with feathers press on the gas pedal in "D" with the other it will bog a bit but a quick jab will cause a downshift (or two). The real gain is in TIP mode. If you are chipped you will learn that tip mode is the only sanity.

i hope someone comes up with the balls to make a more intelligent system. heck if you could get rid of the kick down shift i'd design a PIC or ATMEL to control the tiptronic make it drive right but i don't have time and quite honestly the ole 2002 e46 3.0 steptronic nailed every gear (5 automatic too) and pulled hard from down low to 6600rpm where the motor peaked.

What pisses me off alot is the fact the motor shifts at 6400rpm stage 1+ APR when you know damn well the turbo is kaput at 5200rpm

the reason the dude with the big turbo is nice is because he probably has no load spiking down low due to turbo lag, and conversely from 5200 to 6400rpm his turbo is just singing full boost. It almost makes sense if you think about BT that way. since the car is doing its dance with downshifts jumping over the powerband its like it wishes it had a big laggy turbo so it could do downshifts on MOTOR (no boost) to get the turbo spooling at 5200rpm then pull hard to redline.

but no k04, no eliminator and no k03 is going to give you that.

Maybe the APR stage 1+ is behaving how you'd expect the APR STAGE 3 to behave when it comes to shifting? that would make a ton of sense. jump to peak whp and downshift rapidly to get the big honking turbo to spool.

hmmm.

[Four Play]

With the current lack of support for the 5AT means this is the last TIP Audi/VW I ever get. Next one will have DSG, and with other models adopting the DSG, I don't see the TIP ever getting love it deserves...

[redline_redline]

PEOPLE PEOPLE PEOPLE... this is only a problem with stage 1+ not just a chip. and if you go KO4 or BT i believe it only gets worse (not by much iirc), though the powerband obviously gets better

[AudiA4Turbo22]

So K04 and Eliminator are a no go?? they won't fix crap?? so i'm screwed and i'm going to fail at life??haha j/k no seriously though no hope??

[Audized]

With the current lack of support for the 5AT means this is the last TIP Audi/VW I ever get. Next one will have DSG, and with other models adopting the DSG, I don't see the TIP ever getting love it deserves...

The 6AT in B7 is much better than our 5AT, but it's still an automatic. DSG FTW!

[redline_redline]

So K04 and Eliminator are a no go?? they won't fix crap?? so i'm screwed and i'm going to fail at life??haha j/k no seriously though no hope??

no there are tons of people who have KO4 tips and a few with BT ones. you just need to get used to the kick and learn how to drive around it. i cant really provide any input on how those drive though since i have never experienced it. but i can say that i drive my 1+ with no problem now, just gotta know when it will shift and let off the accelerator then.

[9744RR]

The car in my sig is tip with a GTRS eliminator. The car had Revo stg 1 then stg 2 and now stg 3. The tranny reacts (shifts) much better with the GTRS especially in "S" mode. It's still not perfect but much better than having a big torque spike at around 2300-2500 rpms with the K03. The TCU on a modified TIP car with a ko3/ko4 doesn't seem to know what to do with the torque coming on so strong and so early in the rpm band, it can't be good fo teh tranny either. WIth the GTRS the torque builds and comes on around 3400-3500 rpms and builds all the way to redline. The way the "S" mode shifts withe GTRS actually feels pretty good especially when you're getting on the throttle, of course, its still not perfect in its shift pattern, but much better than a ko3/04 turbo.

For all the folks with a tip tranny, move up to at least a GTRS and skip the K03/K04 turbos.

[A4TL]

^^ AGREED ^^ 100% and when i say that i mean don't bother chipping it; just go to GTRS and associated mods to support it (FMIC,exhaust, yadda).

You know the car reminds me of this old 2002? hyundai something small they made. i was getting married so wife had the E46 2002 330ci coupe. Bridesmaid gave us this thing for groommen and me. So we're going and everytime i mash the gas pedal it just jumps near revline and doesn't accelerate. We finally figure out to turn off the a/c button so it has some upper rev range.

thats what the k03 stage 1+ is like. nail the gas. weeeeeeee 5500+ rpm no power not going anywhere.

now the same 200-something hp bmw 5 speed steptronic; lays into every gear at every mph with the broad inline-6 torque and pulls to 6500 where the power peaks. totally different automatic experience. I might even remove my chip and injectors go back to stock because quite honestly the transmission shifts great stock. and blows ass with chip.

When i got the car i was like tiptronic. damn okay for the wife i can deal.

the i got the chip and was like this blows monkey.

Now i just drive tiptronic full time and it kinda gets old that i have to massage the throttle and drive tiptronic to get what i want.

[diagnosticator]

Yeah, I went back to stock from APR 1+, mainly because of the trans shifting errors. Honestly, I don't really miss the extra power all that much. I mean, until a proper solution is available, I am OK with the stock power. The trans shifts flawlessly with stock ECU, although, I have always wanted a firmer crisper shift feel, raising the trans fluid system pressure would provide that. I have been trying to get my hands on the ZF 5 Speed Valve Body Manual, to figure out what Level Ten does to their VB upgrade, but the damn VB manual costs $275 for None ATRA members. GIAC's Tip Chip for the B5 01V ZF 5HP19 (the same trans as in our B6 A4s, raises system pressure by changing the duty cycle of the system pressure regulator solinoid valve. )

[A4TL]

in my experience, you need to increase flow not just pressure. this is based on experience with 10-12 second american cars with electronic control systems.

reducing shift time to bare minimum without engaging two gears at once (ouchie on clutch-paks)
reducing torque management to zero (reduced timing between shifts)
reducing lock up pwm so it just locks the f' up quick
bumping pressure up (along with physical mods to increase FLOW!!!)
Trans cooler (a must.period end of story. the stock one in the radiator is poopy.)
change shift points to match stage 1+ chip powerband and shift extension. there's no reason to kick down if you can pull on boost; there's no reason to shift into the next gear past peak whp.

while the 4l60E may be childs play compared to the awesome ZF; the amount of careful programming for the ecu (gm uses the same ecu to do both ecu and tcu) is painfully difficult. much harder than tuning the motor. One mistake and you can blow up the trans.

my curiosity lies in the 3.0 computer versus the 1.8T. What exactly is different between the two cars and how hard would it be to desolder both and compare maps. i've got the TSOP adapter for our ecu's eprom and i'm guessing the tcu uses the same.

i've got IDA PRO 5.2 for the cpu it uses.

Anyone want to hack with me?? Could get someone to socket a spare TCU.

I'm down

[diagnosticator]

in my experience, you need to increase flow not just pressure. this is based on experience with 10-12 second american cars with electronic control systems.

reducing shift time to bare minimum without engaging two gears at once (ouchie on clutch-paks)
reducing torque management to zero (reduced timing between shifts)
reducing lock up pwm so it just locks the f' up quick
bumping pressure up (along with physical mods to increase FLOW!!!)
Trans cooler (a must.period end of story. the stock one in the radiator is poopy.)
change shift points to match stage 1+ chip powerband and shift extension. there's no reason to kick down if you can pull on boost; there's no reason to shift into the next gear past peak whp.

while the 4l60E may be childs play compared to the awesome ZF; the amount of careful programming for the ecu (gm uses the same ecu to do both ecu and tcu) is painfully difficult. much harder than tuning the motor. One mistake and you can blow up the trans.

my curiosity lies in the 3.0 computer versus the 1.8T. What exactly is different between the two cars and how hard would it be to desolder both and compare maps. i've got the TSOP adapter for our ecu's eprom and i'm guessing the tcu uses the same.

i've got IDA PRO 5.2 for the cpu it uses.

Anyone want to hack with me?? Could get someone to socket a spare TCU.

I'm down

I'm down for this, how can I help? PM if you prefere.

[A4TL]

well can we get a ecu and someone to desolder the chips off? car-part.com? preferably same model year (2002 for me). I've the eprom burner and probably some blank flash if it s the same as our ecu. i'd be glad to work on disassembling the ecu too if you can get the chips off (ie like how the giac stock chip sits in the holder just pop it off and i can read the factory ecu chip).

we could find all the maps for ecu and tcu and work on this publicly for the interest of everyone.

if we could get a giac dealer to SOCKET our TCU then we could hack that and swap chips easily.

i don't have the technology to do flash load obd-2 or i'd post that :) but like many tuners its just datalog and cheap maps with a simulator; don't have a simulator but with IDA pro 5.2 you can disassemble the code and find the maps easily just need to chip swap to see the mods and their effects. maybe get a line pressure gauge since that would be nuts to not have one

[9744RR]

^^^
I sure hope you guys (A4TL and Diag...) can figure this out. Once you do, share the wealth.

[A4TL]

at this point i'm so happy with my A4 i could pee on it. If it even shifts wrong i'll be putting order for 135i coupe in.

for a 12 second card (faster than the fastest A4), currently knocking on 11's doors - the steptronic nails every gear flawlessly - With or without chip (dinan).

But that doesn't mean i wont give it a go cause i'm always going to keep my A4 :) quattro love :)