STOCK B6 S4 vs ECU/CB B6 S4 PART 2

[b00st]

update time.

so the tale of the tape looks like this....

both are 2004 B6 S4's.

my b6 s4...stock unless you count the K&N drop in. spare tire removed.
heaviest S4 they make due to all options are added in mine.

my bro's S4 (zonawildcatss4)
milltek cat-back, revo flash running on 93 octane setting, k&n drop in, spare tire removed. his car is sans all options.

we both weigh about 180. we both had no passengers on this run. just me vs him. both running 93 octane...i had a 1/2 tank...not sure what he had. i'm sure he'll chime in when he sees the post.

so what changed for him....we changed out his plugs, had his revo flash updated. revo said that his timing needed to be bumped up and his fuel were bumped up. for me...nothing

first run:
1st gear pull started down pretty low...slow enough for him to count it out this time. so maybe 10mph tops. we were rolling just holding speed. we both hit it on 3...pretty damn close....we hold evens through 1st...i hit the rev limiter and lose a second he pulled ahead.

2nd run:
we do a 2nd gear pull....and we both clean shift through....i pulled ahead actually...not sure why...it was on his count. but we were drag ass on this last pull must have been at like 1500rpms in 2nd gear....it was really low. but all in all, i would say after we put the K&N filter in, changed the plugs out. reflashed his ecu for more timing and fuel. we were even. he is no faster than i am. he's got nice exhaust but the ECU is going back.

my overall insight to these 2 mods is...i don't see any gains to be had. you may sound cool...but your certainly not faster than stock. these are my findings...but i was also told this before by a shop owner. and my brother and have raced each other stock on stock with the same exact result. a TIE.

in other news...i pounded on an EVO earlier, it was stock. i even chirped 2nd gear, it was a little one but i heard it . the evo seemed to fade in the higher rpms. he tried a few times and then stopped. i was happy.
i figured with his lighter weight and boost...he would have done better. we did a first gear roll....and it was over in first gear.

[ZONAWILDCATS4]

All I can say is that I'm disappointed in the results. I did change the plugs because I am now at 40,000 miles. I also did the drop in K&N filter. When I changed the filter it was obvious that it needed replacement. So I would estimate that the car is running at its optimum at this point.

Last time we went at it I had a passenger in the car. This time it was just myself. I had 3/4 tank of gas and no spare tire.

Our first roll was in first gear about 10mph up to about 80-90mph I want to say...don't know for sure was watching the road, not the tach...

The second roll was from about 20mph up to about 80mph...and again same results.

All I can say is I'm returning my Revo chip, thank god for 30 day money back gaurantee.. The exhaust is cool...sounds great. But in my opinion...tuning this car to make it faster is not worth the money.

Its funny, I started to think what more I could do to make it faster (cuz I have and addiction) and DP's came up but is it worth it to pay another $1500 to be just slightly faster than a stock S4...I think not. At that point the tab for the mods would be around $3500. I knew this car was expensive to mod but for the money, where are the real world gains?

[RAudi Driver]

This is an eye opener for sure. Thanks for the testing guys.

[enigma1406]

nvm misread

[ChronicTeutonic]

Thanks for doing this!

It's a testament to how reliable Audi thinks the 4.2L motor is.

[Tek4ever]

Thanks b00st & zona.

[b00st]

i guess the deal is.....DON'T BELIEVE THE HYPE.

[Eteled]

Any chance you guys would do some more runs, but switch cars? It'd verify the thesis. Thanks

[tadhgbrosnan]

I could be totally wrong here, but isn't an ECU flash effective only when done in conjunction with aftermarket downpipes?

[b00st]

I could be totally wrong here, but isn't an ECU flash effective only when done in conjunction with aftermarket downpipes?

per REVO its supposed to work with any catback too.

as i have state in a other posts. the only real mod to do is the DPs only. that will yield you gains. and again...also speaking with the owner at CPT here in chicago...a very respected audi repair/performance shop. he said the only gains will be from DPs. he told me to only buy DPs and nothing else. he was basing this off of all the dynos they do.

[b00st]

Any chance you guys would do some more runs, but switch cars? It'd verify the thesis. Thanks

that a great idea. got no problem doing that. maybe this saturday.

[Mello]

Thanks for the updated comparo guys. Always nice to hear real world gains.

[EuroB6]

every car responds differently to mods...a chip/cb exhaust on your bro's car, may do nothing, but on someone else's it could. Also, it maybe that your bro's car, could be slower than yours, stock vs stock.

[WinterRunner]

every car responds differently to mods...a chip/cb exhaust on your bro's car, may do nothing, but on someone else's it could. Also, it maybe that your bro's car, could be slower than yours, stock vs stock.

Good point, except that they had raced on several occations stock for stock and it yielded tied results almost everytime. All I gotta say is, I'm glad I got my downpipes coming. K&N and downpipes FTW.

[b00st]

Good point, except that they had raced on several occations stock for stock and it yielded tied results almost everytime. All I gotta say is, I'm glad I got my downpipes coming. K&N and downpipes FTW.

exactly.

we've raced stock on stock with the results being a TIE. and after he's modded...still a tie.

so just go out and buy dps.

[ZONAWILDCATS4]

So what are you guys trying to say, I'm not a good driver...

My lightning fast shifts are at least worth 10hp

[Race Shooter]

These are extremely unreliable tests. The only true way to test is putting the car on a dyno, plain and simple. There are too many variables when you street race to get results. A minor hesitation at start can lead to problems all the way through the run. Regardless of what you did in the past, testing this way yields no results that anyone should actually base their mods/purchases on. I'm glad you're trying to help, but till you put the cars on the dyno, before and after, under the same conditions, there really isnt anything that can be learned from these tests.

And I have no reason to defend chips or exhausts or anything, my car is stock except for the exhaust and that was done purely for a sound thing (I missed the exhaust off my old R32), so I'm not trying to justify any mod expenses or anything like that.

[WinterRunner]

These are extremely unreliable tests. The only true way to test is putting the car on a dyno, plain and simple. There are too many variables when you street race to get results. A minor hesitation at start can lead to problems all the way through the run. Regardless of what you did in the past, testing this way yields no results that anyone should actually base their mods/purchases on. I'm glad you're trying to help, but till you put the cars on the dyno, before and after, under the same conditions, there really isnt anything that can be learned from these tests.

And I have no reason to defend chips or exhausts or anything, my car is stock except for the exhaust and that was done purely for a sound thing (I missed the exhaust off my old R32), so I'm not trying to justify any mod expenses or anything like that.

Eh i think it def shows some results. With those mods, you should still pull ahead, which of course this did not happen...

[Lugi20]

These are extremely unreliable tests.

Yes but they are real world tests... Doesn't matter what a dino says if you don't show it on the street.

[EuroB6]

So what are you guys trying to say, I'm not a good driver...

My lightning fast shifts are at least worth 10hp

not at all buddy.. i just think taht your car didnt respond well to these mods. Just put them on your brother's car and see if it makes a difference. :)

[b00st]

These are extremely unreliable tests. The only true way to test is putting the car on a dyno, plain and simple. There are too many variables when you street race to get results. A minor hesitation at start can lead to problems all the way through the run. Regardless of what you did in the past, testing this way yields no results that anyone should actually base their mods/purchases on. I'm glad you're trying to help, but till you put the cars on the dyno, before and after, under the same conditions, there really isnt anything that can be learned from these tests.

And I have no reason to defend chips or exhausts or anything, my car is stock except for the exhaust and that was done purely for a sound thing (I missed the exhaust off my old R32), so I'm not trying to justify any mod expenses or anything like that.

you can't compare dynos. they have 3 different makes. temp, humidity, etc, etc. different states. talk about variables. what we can do is see if 2 cars can nail the gas almost at the same time...cuz same time is not likely. and see if car "A" pulls on car "B". if you were truely putting down that much more torque or HP....it would have shown up sooner or later in the run. so lets says its no more or less reliable than your dyno runs. the guy i go to says they typically dyno stock at 245awhp. some people say the average is 260awhp. does that mean my car has less HP. no. so its definitely not an exact science but it isn't completely something to discard either. i see it as the same as viewing your dynos. only his mods should have shown up and translated to a little movement on me. they didn't. end of story.

the only dyno you can compare is your car stock and then your car modded on the same day on the same day...hoping that the days temps, humidity, etc....didn't vary to much from the start.

[b00st]

not at all buddy.. i just think taht your car didnt respond well to these mods. Just put them on your brother's car and see if it makes a difference. :)

if we were the same stock.

we would be the same if i put his parts on my car. this is actually nothing new. this was confirmed by someone else who sees a ton of audis. very well respected guy in the midwest. on the dyno he said it shows 3whp. i don't expect you to do anything with 3whp.....for a catback and flash. he said all you will notice is a better response from the car. and typically with the flashes they already increase the throttle response from stock.

[ZONAWILDCATS4]

These are extremely unreliable tests. The only true way to test is putting the car on a dyno, plain and simple. There are too many variables when you street race to get results. A minor hesitation at start can lead to problems all the way through the run. Regardless of what you did in the past, testing this way yields no results that anyone should actually base their mods/purchases on. I'm glad you're trying to help, but till you put the cars on the dyno, before and after, under the same conditions, there really isnt anything that can be learned from these tests.

Lets say we did dyno, and I showed a 15 hp incease over him. What does that translate to on the street. If I was to guess...Little to absolutely nothing.

Showing me a dyno before a mod and after a mod doesn't do much for me either. Its gonna show me that I put down an extra 15whp. It's a 4% increase, which after my experience is not enough to make much of a difference over the way the car performs stock.

Look, I get what you are saying. Their are a lot of different variables when you are on the street but to say the dyno is a better way to determine if mods will mean anything to you on the street does less to confirm cuz its not the street and the weather was hot that day, or the barrometric pressure was too low or high, or the differences in dyno's or what gear to dyno in blah blah blah...their are more variables on the dyno than on the street. Ask people to post up their dyno numbers and check the variations.

In our circumstance, we are both pretty good drivers, neither one of us was granny shifting and we didn't start from a dig, because the start is where you will find more variations in 1/4 mile times...we raced from a roll each time so that we would not have to contend with either one of us having a bad start.

[ZONAWILDCATS4]

not at all buddy.. i just think taht your car didnt respond well to these mods. Just put them on your brother's car and see if it makes a difference. :)

That would be interesting to find out...hmmmm

Even if his car would respond better than mine, its not worth the money to be a tenth faster given the investment.

Anyone in the chicago area wanna further our study...on a closed course/controled environment

[Race Shooter]

You both seemed to miss the part in my post where I said:

"...but till you put the cars on the dyno, before and after, under the same conditions..."

I realize that dyno runs mean crap unless you do them on the same dyno, on the same day, under the same conditions. But in the end, that is the only true way to tell if the mods did something or not. Just because in your street runs you didnt feel like you found anything doesnt mean that they didnt do anything.

These manufacturers do not say that if you use their product you'll be able to beat your friend in a makeshift street run. They say they add X amount of power. If your particular car or the particular driver on that particular day didnt show a marked improvement then it doesnt mean that it did nothing for your car.

If YOU did not see the benefit of money spent, thats fine, dont spend the money. However, that does not mean that another driver might not find that the chip smoothed out the power band to them, or that they now like the fact the rev limiter is changged, or they may track their car and find that having the speed limiter removed makes a difference. It also doesnt mean that another driver might not be able to take advantage of said gains either.

What you did leaves FAR more variables than dynoing a car on the same dyno before and after a mod under the same conditions.

Maybe you had bad gas that day. What if you were both shifting at different points, maybe some of the advantage of the chip comes beyond where you shifted on both runs and therefore you didnt take advantage of it? What if you hesitated a bit at start? That delay would show up consistently the entire run and maybe not allow you to overtake the other car. Maybe you went early on the stock runs and late on the modded runs? Maybe it looked like you didnt pull on the other car, but if you did 0-60 or true timed 1/4 mile runs the car would be 6 tenths faster than it was. That is not something you could gauge racing a buddy on the street but it was a real world gain due to the mod.

Again, that might not be worth the money to you, but to say that the mods "did nothing" and were a "waste of money" isnt necessarily true.

All I'm saying is that your tests are about as far from being scientific as testing can be. Certainly not enough to say the mods mean nothing.

[ZONAWILDCATS4]

I totally get what you are saying.

When you say that people think that their power band is smoother, I cringe...people talk about "the butt dyno" ...its not because the chip made you faster, its because they changed the throttle response to make it seem like you are faster.

Do you think that an extra 10 -15 wheel horsepower is going to get you anything on the street?

I'm not doubting that my car would put down more power on the dyno given the mods...but its not translating to any gains on the street.

The two engine mods that I've done are probably the 2 most common mods. I'm just trying to pass along some info to others who are thinking of doing these mods. Not like this stuff has not been talked about for years. Its well known that performance mods on these cars do little to nothing...5% increase in whp...which might translate to a tenth in a quarter mile run.

Hey I'm happy with my car, I don't mind the money I spent on the exhaust...I love it in fact and would do it again. The ECU upgrade ($600)for no on the street performance gains. For those people wanting to spend that stimulus money..beware...

[Licit]

Thank you very much for this post. I have been looking at buying a 2004 or 2005 S4 and wanted to see what mods are available since there are other AWD cars out there to choose from. Most of them aren't nearly as nice looking as the S4's but then again modability is high on my priorities list. After reading through audiforums and here, especially this post, it seems the S4 is not what I should get to replace my wife's ride. The fact that 2 mods, not cheap mods, add maybe ~15hp is ridiculous. Hell the ud pulley($200) gave my GTO 11hp and it started with 400hp. It is really too bad there isn't more of a performance aftermarket for the 03-05 S4's and that what there is out there won't make a very big difference. Beautiful cars though.

[MLR]

I still do not understand why you Only did these tests from a roll, but at least you know that from a roll those 2 cars are even.

1.) 99% of all B6 ECU flashes are not custom, which means they will not work the same on every car. This is why I went with Autospeed. All of my software re-mapping was done while my car was sitting on a Dyno and there was a 20 WHP gain (I doubt your brother's car was on a Dyno when he had a the flash done, so he may have had zero gains). My ECU flash is only good for my car and would not work for yours. It is set up to maximize my cars potential.

2.) Cat-Back does nothing, except produce sound. If you look under the car you will clearly see the exhaust restriction points are within the Downpipes.

Your test is basically like running against a stock car and I am not surprised by the results. These cars are already tuned very well from the factory and Revo does not claim any substantial gains.

I would love to do this same test against you, but I would also like to add the 1/4 to the mix. Certainly not saying I will win, but I think this will be a better test than against your brother.

[b spot]

Does REVO bump the redline?

Because if you compare and APR car to a stock car, the APR will win if for nothing else than the 7500 rpm redline that allows you to stay in power a little bit longer, and depending on how fast you race too, can save you a shift.

[b00st]

I still do not understand why you Only did these tests from a roll, but at least you know that from a roll those 2 cars are even.

1.) 99% of all B6 ECU flashes are not custom, which means they will not work the same on every car. This is why I went with Autospeed. All of my software re-mapping was done while my car was sitting on a Dyno and there was a 20 WHP gain (I doubt your brother's car was on a Dyno when he had a the flash done, so he may have had zero gains). My ECU flash is only good for my car and would not work for yours. It is set up to maximize my cars potential.

2.) Cat-Back does nothing, except produce sound. If you look under the car you will clearly see the exhaust restriction points are within the Downpipes.

Your test is basically like running against a stock car and I am not surprised by the results. These cars are already tuned very well from the factory and Revo does not claim any substantial gains.

I would love to do this same test against you, but I would also like to add the 1/4 to the mix. Certainly not saying I will win, but I think this will be a better test than against your brother.

i know mike...AL talked to me about your car i know all about it.

as far as the CB goes...i know. but apparently nobody else does. and i expect you to do better against me...just not by much. since your full exhaust and custom tune which is truely better.

as for testing only during a roll....is because...from the dig...either you get out or you don't. i'm not perfect every time...i can bog it (though rare )...or he can...and then there is no point what so ever to continue if thats the case.

the real point was....if he was truely a more stronger car now with his mods...he should have pulled through the RPM range. regardless if i was ahead...since we nailed it at the same spot....the motors are pretty close in RPMs...the stronger car would have pulled.

like i said. when we did stock for stock same results. as AL said....the key is in the DPs. not flash and cb. i know with your car...the flash helped...but a flash will also hurt until the custom tune is right. REVO is a general/standardized tune for the B6 S4 along with anyone else who offers a simple flash GIAC/APR/ETC.

MESSAGE ME WHEN YOU GOT TO AN ETK MEET AND WE CAN DO A PRIVATE RUN AND SEE full exhaust and custom tune vs. stock.

[b00st]

Does REVO bump the redline?

Because if you compare and APR car to a stock car, the APR will win if for nothing else than the 7500 rpm redline that allows you to stay in power a little bit longer, and depending on how fast you race too, can save you a shift.

so you'd think. thats not the case. REVO does bump the rev limit to 7500 as well. which of course my brother thought the same thing you did. that he would catch me because i'd have to shift at 7k or 7.1k. not true at all.

we did a 3rd gear pull...and the one time we nailed it almost at the same time...he was at the middle of my door. and as i shifted at my 7k...he didn't gain and I watched him shift after me....by no means to i shift slow in a race...i know there is still milliseconds of me off the gas and him on...but it didn't matter.

i think that idea is good on paper and good in theory...but when cars are so closely matched. it doesn't matter.

[b00st]

They say they add X amount of power. If your particular car or the particular driver on that particular day didnt show a marked improvement then it doesnt mean that it did nothing for your car.

All companies advertise power...otherwise what's the point
from what i understand and i will not mention any names cuz its pointless but. they will take a measurement...lets say the low or the baseline in one gear....do the dyno run in all gears...see where the biggest peak is...and say we gained X. technically this is true what they say.

If YOU did not see the benefit of money spent, thats fine, dont spend the money. However, that does not mean that another driver might not find that the chip smoothed out the power band to them, or that they now like the fact the rev limiter is changged, or they may track their car and find that having the speed limiter removed makes a difference. It also doesnt mean that another driver might not be able to take advantage of said gains either.

What you did leaves FAR more variables than dynoing a car on the same dyno before and after a mod under the same conditions.

i don't really care if you or any buys or doesn't buy because of my experiment. i just posting results. YOU can take them for what they are. this is actually quite simple. but lets face it...we all buy these cuz we wanted more power. you EXPECT to be faster than a stock S4 wouldn't you. and if that wasn't the case?

Maybe you had bad gas that day. What if you were both shifting at different points, maybe some of the advantage of the chip comes beyond where you shifted on both runs and therefore you didnt take advantage of it? What if you hesitated a bit at start? That delay would show up consistently the entire run and maybe not allow you to overtake the other car. Maybe you went early on the stock runs and late on the modded runs? Maybe it looked like you didnt pull on the other car, but if you did 0-60 or true timed 1/4 mile runs the car would be 6 tenths faster than it was. That is not something you could gauge racing a buddy on the street but it was a real world gain due to the mod.

Again, that might not be worth the money to you, but to say that the mods "did nothing" and were a "waste of money" isnt necessarily true.

All I'm saying is that your tests are about as far from being scientific as testing can be. Certainly not enough to say the mods mean nothing

bad gas...doubt it...wishful thinking maybe.

sure i shift at 7k were the S4 makes its peak HP and he shifts at 7.5k "taking advantage" of his chip. the S4 pulls to the end...so shifting anywhere else is kinda pointless unless your car isn't running optimally. the a dyno would help in diagnosing your shift points.

someone is always going to hesitate a lil. but its close. its not like any one of us are leaving a second or two behind the other. if he is on my door...thats .05. a 10th is a car length.

the first run was prolly from 10-80 or 90, instead of 0-60....thats a long enough time for him to do something...a little creep...i wasn't expecting him to pass...but make even the slightest move....that i was. and that did not happen. nuff said.

i am saying a shop owner has shown me and told me the gains from the car stock vs flash and cb vs full exhaust and flash. and its not a big gain overall.
i don't care about the money aspect.

i didn't say this was scientific. its an example in the real world. and i honestly think that the people with the mods....if they rolled up on a stock s4...they expect to beat them...and maybe thats not the case. i do expect a full exhaust and flashed s4 to beat me or move on me. that i do...and if it doesn't...sucks for him. whether i'm at the track or on the street.

as stated...take it for what you will...its up for you to decide. we get in the same agruements everytime a dyno is posted or 1/4 mile time. i'm done arguing.

[b00st]

Thank you very much for this post. I have been looking at buying a 2004 or 2005 S4 and wanted to see what mods are available since there are other AWD cars out there to choose from. Most of them aren't nearly as nice looking as the S4's but then again modability is high on my priorities list. After reading through audiforums and here, especially this post, it seems the S4 is not what I should get to replace my wife's ride. The fact that 2 mods, not cheap mods, add maybe ~15hp is ridiculous. Hell the ud pulley($200) gave my GTO 11hp and it started with 400hp. It is really too bad there isn't more of a performance aftermarket for the 03-05 S4's and that what there is out there won't make a very big difference. Beautiful cars though.

i raced a 5.7L 350 HP GTO and beat him. him stock, me stock. and full tank of gas, spare tire in and all. neither of us had passengers. i was happy abou that. and it was the GTO that was honking so he naturally gets the bump. it was a 3rd gear run on the highway into 5th. i was happy...i beat him by a 1/2 car. considering i was full weight as can be. normally i race at 1/2 tank and under.

i personally feel the cars are pretty maxed out stock. and i'm fine with the way it drives.

[ZONAWILDCATS4]

Its funny too because I agree with you all when you say that cat back does little to nothing when it comes to performance, but I've seen dyno's of people with a cat back and chip put down more power compared to someone who has full exhaust and chip...all done on the same dyno. Ahhh all of this confirms to me that you should leave well enough alone. Yes some people might put down more power than others with this mod or that mod...but you look at the big picture...is it worth $3000 to put down 10-15whp than stock???

We did it from a roll to take out the fact that its likely one of us would get off the line better than the next.

For the record, I will say that Revo does honor the 30 day money back deal, cuz I did return my chip today. Thats good business to me. If I buy a different car...B8 S4 SC someday...I would definitely consider them. Not at all trying to bash them because they are one of the best tuners out there...

Just trying to help out some tuners out their looking to see real world performance out of their rides and offer ONE persons perspective.

[b00st]

nuff said.

[Tiny2000]

Thanks for the interesting read, good to hear how all these mods and $$$ spent really translate to the road, where it really counts = passing some 18-wheeler on a two-lane highway, or putting some cocky [BMW] owner in his place.

One thing that strikes me, is if you two guys Boost and Zona are really brothers? If that's the case then that's one exclusive family to have two S4 cars! We don't see too many around up here, mainly A4s only

[b00st]

Thanks for the interesting read, good to hear how all these mods and $$$ spent really translate to the road, where it really counts = passing some 18-wheeler on a two-lane highway, or putting some cocky [BMW] owner in his place.

One thing that strikes me, is if you two guys Boost and Zona are really brothers? If that's the case then that's one exclusive family to have two S4 cars! We don't see too many around up here, mainly A4s only

we both did the A4 thing too
cept i was faster back then. now we are just the same. would have sucked for him if i got the RS4. i would have been faster again

[Tek4ever]

Does REVO bump the redline?

Because if you compare and APR car to a stock car, the APR will win if for nothing else than the 7500 rpm redline that allows you to stay in power a little bit longer, and depending on how fast you race too, can save you a shift.

I bought the GIAC flash and noticed I red line around 7200 RPM. Does this sound right?

[b00st]

I bought the GIAC flash and noticed I red line around 7200 RPM. Does this sound right?

i would think you could go to 7500. i think they always go +500 rpms. same thing on my a4, it was +500 rpms.

[italiaboi24]

Thank you very much for this post. I have been looking at buying a 2004 or 2005 S4 and wanted to see what mods are available since there are other AWD cars out there to choose from. Most of them aren't nearly as nice looking as the S4's but then again modability is high on my priorities list. After reading through audiforums and here, especially this post, it seems the S4 is not what I should get to replace my wife's ride. The fact that 2 mods, not cheap mods, add maybe ~15hp is ridiculous. Hell the ud pulley($200) gave my GTO 11hp and it started with 400hp. It is really too bad there isn't more of a performance aftermarket for the 03-05 S4's and that what there is out there won't make a very big difference. Beautiful cars though.

it you wanted easy hp increase, the only real way to go would be like an MTM supercharger or a B5 S4 with a turbokit/tuning. Those monsters can get up past 500hp!