Stiff Springs Anyone?

[bigphil]

Im looking to run 650 front and 750 rear or so. Mainly street for now, but if I get enough mods done I will look into racing. My car recently turned into a weekend only and I dont care what anyone else thinks about the ride as long as I enjoy it. Anyone else running stiff springs? Im interested in any feedback. Ive only seen limited examples but I know some people have run this stiff. A lot of other cars (read car forums not audi boards) run A LOT softer than this it seems. I cant find any thread specifically on spring rate for our cars so hopefully someone out there has an opinion. One good example I found was startupracing.com but thats about it.

Cheers!

[B7A4WD]

i want stiff springs as well =] update!

[michael66899]

I always wish I knew what spring rate my H&R race springs were, I personally wish they were stiffer as well. Check out www.stasisengineering.com, their B5 kits have a variety of spring rates you can choose from.

[bigphil]

Ive already ordered AR-spec Ksports. Im waiting for them to be built and shipped. A bit of a gamble, but I usually take the road less traveled. Ohlins sold on ebay the other day running 800 900 or something like that on the road.

[onemoremile]

Sounds like you need to read this article to learn how suspension really works. Dampers do 90% of the work while springs just hold up the car and deal with some brake dive.

Stiffer springs aren't always better for the track since the best lap times come from the best utilization of the contact patches. Tire shock is caused by stiff springs and will slow a car down. It is also worth noting that many multi-car teams will have drastically different setups for different drivers. Some will run soft springs with more damping and vice versa.

Running stiff springs without the proper dampers modifications is like running race gas in a stock car. Not only will the intended benefits never appear it is likely that you are doing more harm than good.

[bigphil]

Sounds like you need to read this article to learn how suspension really works. Dampers do 90% of the work while springs just hold up the car and deal with some brake dive.

Stiffer springs aren't always better for the track since the best lap times come from the best utilization of the contact patches. Tire shock is caused by stiff springs and will slow a car down. It is also worth noting that many multi-car teams will have drastically different setups for different drivers. Some will run soft springs with more damping and vice versa.

Running stiff springs without the proper dampers modifications is like running race gas in a stock car. Not only will the intended benefits never appear it is likely that you are doing more harm than good.

lol, you make it sound as if I'm throwing stiff springs on a stock damper. I'm having the coilovers built to my specifications. After reading about stasis, bilsteins and all of the other common lot people run (all having highly mixed reviews) the best setup I could find was either startupracing.com or buy some ohlins; both way above a budget for a sport im not 100% dedicated to as yet. So with the chance to have custom built coilovers at a decent price, I jumped on it. I don't have extremely high hopes but hopefully ksport knows how to setup the valving according to what I told them. There was no way i was going to lower my car while keeping stock spring rates and from what I've read what I chose should be a good starting point - I don't claim to be an expert. I don't have access to a shock dyno, but I will post my impressions. I appreciate the enthusiastic response nonetheless, even if it was poorly aimed - I'm not exactly looking to take tenths off my laptime here. Not yet, anyway.

[$teady$upreme]

I think Eibach offers some stiff race springs~

[onemoremile]

lol, you make it sound as if I'm throwing stiff springs on a stock damper. I'm having the coilovers built to my specifications. After reading about stasis, bilsteins and all of the other common lot people run (all having highly mixed reviews) the best setup I could find was either startupracing.com or buy some ohlins; both way above a budget for a sport im not 100% dedicated to as yet. So with the chance to have custom built coilovers at a decent price, I jumped on it. I don't have extremely high hopes but hopefully ksport knows how to setup the valving according to what I told them. There was no way i was going to lower my car while keeping stock spring rates and from what I've read what I chose should be a good starting point - I don't claim to be an expert. I don't have access to a shock dyno, but I will post my impressions. I appreciate the enthusiastic response nonetheless, even if it was poorly aimed - I'm not exactly looking to take tenths off my laptime here. Not yet, anyway.

You never mentioned dampers, only springs. Overly stiff springs are really for people that don't know how suspension works. The dampers do 90% of the work. You can run lower spring rates than listed and get better manners on the street and on the track. My advice is to buy a used set of high quality coilovers so you can obtain a frame of reference. Then sell them for what you paid and order exactly what you want.

I ran KW V1 coilovers for a couple summers and ran Bilsteins with Neuspeed Sofsport springs on a 94 Jetta. The S4 that used to be my company car runs Vogtland springs over Konis. Both my Avant and the S4 Avant also run H-Sport bars which really are the key to getting the most out of these cars. My recommendation is medium stiffness springs, Konis or other twin tube adjustable dampers, and the H-sport bars. This gives you a car that is predictable, quick, and comfortable.

If that isn't enough experience for you then consider the following; I've crewed on a Speed Challenge car, helped set up many street and track cars, and take my car to a race team crew chief for it's corner balancing, suspension and alignment settings, test-n-tunes, and advice on all of the above. I'm sharing advice that most people have no access to and it is unbiased unlike that from vendors. I'd also pass on the Ohlins and look at Penske and Moton but as you said you're not at that level yet. I have run several different setups on the track, autocross, and on our horrendous roads and have learned from all of it. My 240hp K04 Avant runs in the experienced run groups with 350-450+ hp Porsches, Mustangs, Vipers, etc. and there is good reason for it.

[$teady$upreme]

onemoremile, you have both front and rear H-sport bars?

I currently have a neuspeed 21mm rear sway and stock front. I have a K-Mac front camber kit though, you think i should get some sort of front sway as well?

I also have custom valved Bilsteins and Eibach race springs.

[onemoremile]

I've got the set of bars and so does the S4. I had been running them with stock sport suspension and had three bad links so I took them off a few weeks ago. The car rides and handles like a Buick now.

I had the K-Mac kit but sold it without installing it. It really has nothing to do with the bars.

Whether or not you need the front bar has to due with how your car handles currently and you preference as the driver. The larger bar will tighten up the front end and help the car turn in a little better. As low as your car is that probably isn't necessary. If you were local I'd let you borrow them for a while but you're too far away for that.

[UN-PIMP-Z-A4]

I have votrag sport springs 450 front and 500 in the rear
in combination with bilstein sport struts and frant and rear hsport sways

[iin10ded]

great info here! as a datapoint, i have h+r sport springs over bilstien sport dampers and overall i'm disappointed. harsh, busy ride and the car is easilly upset. i believe the spring is too stiff and/or underdamped. i have driven a few cars with stasis setups - both street and motorsport and they are excellent.

1more - what's your preferred spring / shock combo on your a4 avant? thanks!

[biketsai]

From reading that link you posted Onemoremile, it kinda gets me thinking about what coils to get. I wanted the Vogtlands over the Stasis SS because of stiffness, but after reading the article, it said that shocks that are tuned right (stasis) will perform better. So should I go with Stasis although they are not as stiff for my occasional track days and twisty runs?

[djwimbo]

From reading that link you posted Onemoremile, it kinda gets me thinking about what coils to get. I wanted the Vogtlands over the Stasis SS because of stiffness, but after reading the article, it said that shocks that are tuned right (stasis) will perform better. So should I go with Stasis although they are not as stiff for my occasional track days and twisty runs?

Yes. Jim (onemoremile) is much more experienced in suspension setups than a lot of people that have been around longer than he has. I'm looking into the Stasis Street setup for myself as well, and Jim helped make that decision clear.
I'd listen to him.

An over sprung vehicle, in this case my roommate's "new" car, becomes very unstable at high speeds. At highway speeds the car bounces around, and has even lifted the rear tires off the ground... very scary in a Miata @ 85 mph.

[onemoremile]

great info here! as a datapoint, i have h+r sport springs over bilstien sport dampers and overall i'm disappointed. harsh, busy ride and the car is easilly upset. i believe the spring is too stiff and/or underdamped. i have driven a few cars with stasis setups - both street and motorsport and they are excellent.

1more - what's your preferred spring / shock combo on your a4 avant? thanks!

The Bilsteins tend to be that way. Since they are under such high pressure there is 'stiction' which is the tendancy to stick before moving. I had this problem with air shocks on mountain bikes when they were introduced about a decade ago. They were very light and progressive but it took a pretty good hit to get it moving. They just didn't respond to the little bumps. It was a few years before the negative spring was invented. This opposed the initial stiction so the shock sat partially into it's travel at rest rather than in the fully extended position. Now the wheels responded to everything and the shock 'floated' along within it's nominal ranges and got progressively stiffer when compressed or extended. It just seeked out it's happy place.

That is what car suspension is supposed to do. The weight of the car creates sag (negative travel) which should counteract the Bilstein's inherent initial stiffness. The problem is that they are often run with overly stiff springs (because that's what race cars have - duuuuh) which pushes them up and makes them overly harsh and often underdamped.

The shock (damper, strut, whatever) really only has one job and that is to control the speed of the piston shaft. If you've got soft springs and stiff damping then the car may oscillate a bit but it isn't going to plow through it's travel or bottom out like most would think.

Years ago there were rowing machines available with adjustable shock absorbers (dampers) for the resistance. They were pretty hokey but they taught a lot about how dampers work. Turn the knob up or down and they would accept any amount of pressure but only at their speed. A 5 year old could push them at 2 mph but a bodybuilder couldn't push them any faster. This is how adjustable dampers work in a car too. If you tighten them up then all the force isn't going to bottom out soft springs because the damper slows down the movement. Stiffer tends to work better on a track because everything happens quicker or over a shorter period of time. Stiff springs can actually hurt that since they have more potential energy and take more energy to slow down. Finding the happy balance is key.


My choices would depend on budget and application. For a full on track rat system I'd go with external reservoir dampers from Moton, Ohlins, or Penske with springs tailored to match. For a street driven track slut I'd go with something adjustable and reasonably comfortable like Bilstein PSS9, KW V3, Stasis TS, etc.. For a budget system that can handle a Friday night date, Saturday track day, and a Sunday autocross there is nothing better than the Koni adjustables. The only problem is that they aren't always adjustable on our cars. That is one of the biggest reasons I keep looking at other platforms. I'd love a Tein EDFC system retrofitted to a B5.

[iin10ded]

Again great info. I've been considering swapping my h+r's for my stock sport springs, with the bils sports, to soften things up a bit.

Also one thing i've noticed with the h+r's is that there is a LOT of spring to try to compress onto the shock. So much so that once they're installed the top few coils are touching. That can't be good? I mean, can a spring 'spring' if there's no gap between the coils? such as: http://picasaweb.google.com/thejimro...07698810437650

[djwimbo]

For a street driven track slut I'd go with something adjustable and reasonably comfortable like Bilstein PSS9, KW V3, Stasis TS, etc.. For a budget system that can handle a Friday night date, Saturday track day, and a Sunday autocross there is nothing better than the Koni adjustables. The only problem is that they aren't always adjustable on our cars. That is one of the biggest reasons I keep looking at other platforms. I'd love a Tein EDFC system retrofitted to a B5.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but IIRC the SCCA rules do not allow the use of Tein's EDFC at the Solo events. Granted, your autocross stuff wasn't the full on SCCA stuff, but for those who are interested in participating in SCCA, they do not allow it.
NTM I've heard from a few people about Tein's quality going downhill, and they only offer (for a performance increase) the Street Sports for our cars.

I spoke with a Damper Dyno technician (awesome title) about coilovers and how the adjustable ones measure up. The first thing was obviously the "you get what you pay for." remark, but I was suprised on what he said about adjustables. Apparently the Tein's once introduced to a track setting fail to be adjustable. One extreme setting to the polar opposite made absolutely no difference in their performance.
On a street car this may be less noticible, but on a track car with an educated driver he said it would be a waste of money and time.

[onemoremile]

startupracing made a similar comment about the Bilstein PSS9 but that was rebuked. The issue is that damper response is a 3 dimensional curve and not just 2d.

SCCA's rules only matter for those that autocross competitively. I doubt anyone here is headed to Topeka.

[Seerlah]

Onemoremile, my question is not up to par to the other posts/responses/conversations in the thread, but I was talking with my old mechanic last time I was there about suspension. He said that there is a big difference between the Koni coilovers. Meaning ones manufactured in Japan and ones manufactured in Germany. But I was under the impression that since they are under the same trade mark, made on same factory lines, that the end product would be the same no matter where produced. Is this true?

For this reason he said why some Konis sell for $1,300+ and others for ~$1,000. Would you feel as for a street driven car that if one was to purchase ones manufactured in Japan would make that much, if any, of a difference?

Thanks!

*this inquiry was sparked by your Koni comment

[biketsai]

Onemoremile, my question is not up to par to the other posts/responses/conversations in the thread, but I was talking with my old mechanic last time I was there about suspension. He said that there is a big difference between the Koni coilovers. Meaning ones manufactured in Japan and ones manufactured in Germany. But I was under the impression that since they are under the same trade mark, made on same factory lines, that the end product would be the same no matter where produced. Is this true?

For this reason he said why some Konis sell for $1,300+ and others for ~$1,000. Would you feel as for a street driven car that if one was to purchase ones manufactured in Japan would make that much, if any, of a difference?

Thanks!

*this inquiry was sparked by your Koni comment

So considering that tuned coils are better, should I go for stasis or vogtland?
I wanted the vogtlands at first because of stiffness, but from reading your posts, I want to get something that has some r/d behind them.

[onemoremile]

Koni tunes their Euro coilovers differently. I know they are different than the NA spec but hadn't heard anything about a Japanese spec. I believe the Euro spec coilovers are a little more taut but I've got no direct experience with them.

The Konis are one of my favorites because you get great handling with better ride quality than the Bilsteins. I've gone back and forth with several sources trying to find out whether the Vogtlands are a Koni style low pressure design or not. I haven't landed on any conclusive info yet.

For me it is a tossup but I would probably end up with the Vogtlands due to the Inox body and a few other little features.

http://forums.audiworld.com/s4/threa....phtml#2327210