Next S4 a supercharged V6--thoughts?

[Sleepy 1]

I'm rolling a 1.8T so I don't have much room to talk, but I will eventually own an S or RS4 and here is my thinking:
Why is Audi's S car competing with a 335i and not an M car, and why isn't the horsepower going up? I know the 335i is a sick car, but it's not "special designation" car like an M, RS, S, AMG etc. Also, and I know fuel prices are ridiculous, and everyone is feeling them, but isn't the target demographic for an S4 those who care less about fuel cost and more about performance. If your first concerned is fuel prices, buy a four banger or a cheep little comuter car and roll your S4 on the weekends [/Rant]

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/04/24/r...percharged-v6/

[enigma1406]

Twin-charging would be interesting. Just a supercharged V6 would not.

[Ill 3.0]

Twin-charging would be interesting. Just a supercharged V6 would not.

agreed, although I do enjoy my supercharged 3.0...

However twin-charging could open up all kinds of maintenance issues. Hopefully they make it a twin turbo like has been speculated in the past.

[enigma1406]

agreed, although I do enjoy my supercharged 3.0...

However twin-charging could open up all kinds of maintenance issues. Hopefully they make it a twin turbo like has been speculated in the past.

Agreed. I don't dislike the supercharged V6...but after talks of a twin turbo V6 it just doesn't deliver. TT V6 would be ideal. Well...TT V8 might be more ideal but it's not going to happen.

[SuperAvant]

Not a fan of superchargers due to their lack of tunability (especially roots blowers which I would bet my left nut the S4's will be) and also due to the parasitic loss from running it off the engine. Why not go back to the tried and tested way of the turbo? Its more efficient if thats what they are looking for and can easily be cranked up to ungodly amounts of power...

Now I used to have a S/c vehicle but it just didnt do it for me.

[Ill 3.0]

Its more efficient if thats what they are looking for and can easily be cranked up to ungodly amounts of power...

Now I used to have a S/c vehicle but it just didnt do it for me.

True, just depends on what you're looking for. S/C provides great low end torque, immediate responsiveness and smooth torque curve, all of which are prefect for cruising around town. But you'll never achieve that stupid level of power a twin turbo setup could achieve. For me 99.9% of the time I couldn't use much more power. But it would be nice to have

[jerrym]

i think another bi-turbo would also help :)

[UberDave]

The main concern here is it won't be developed by Quattro GMBH... Seems like it will be just an A4 with bigger engine and slightly different bodywork, that won't do it for me.

[$4c@b]

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...mates_car_news

[ginkof]

that sucks! i love my V8! i bought the car not caring about gas mileage..... and even at these prices i still dont! im sure a lot of other S4 guys are with me.

[Silververtu]

The main concern here is it won't be developed by Quattro GMBH... Seems like it will be just an A4 with bigger engine and slightly different bodywork, that won't do it for me.

That's my main concern either. It doesn't look as exclusive as before.

[PenguiN]

That's my main concern either. It doesn't look as exclusive as before.

Thats why I will not even think of buying the S4.... Im totally looking to get the RS5... no more S cars for me. They just dont cut it compared to the competition. Its gotta be RS, or a different car period.

[ieatfishburitos]

Well, as much as I hate to say it, this car won't ever make it into my garage...

[GTIBONO]

i thought it was gonna be a new twin turbo setup like the b5.... now im sad :(

[altorfer]

Looks like it will be RS4 or Mercedes for me next time...weak move by Audi.

[ZONAWILDCATS4]

The main concern here is it won't be developed by Quattro GMBH... Seems like it will be just an A4 with bigger engine and slightly different bodywork, that won't do it for me.

Quattro gmbh doesn't produce the S4 anyway...

From what I understand they make the RS4, R8 and RS6

Taken from Audi's website, (Gmbh is in Neckarsulm)
The Audi plant in Ingolstadt is not only home to the Group head office of AUDI AG, it is also the company's largest production facility. The Audi A3, A3 Sportback, Audi S4, Audi A4 and Audi A4 Avant models are all currently built at the Ingolstadt plant.

You would think the editors would review their shit before making a statement like that...canceling my car and driver subscription

[b spot]

Not a fan of superchargers due to their lack of tunability (especially roots blowers which I would bet my left nut the S4's will be) and also due to the parasitic loss from running it off the engine. Why not go back to the tried and tested way of the turbo? Its more efficient if thats what they are looking for and can easily be cranked up to ungodly amounts of power...

Now I used to have a S/c vehicle but it just didnt do it for me.

For a roots blower with a bypass valve parasitic loss is less than 1hp when not under boost... so no big deal. My biggest problem with S/C setups is the lack of low end power. Usually power steeply climbs pretty linearly until redline, so you really need to keep your revs up to stay in your power band. With the V8 or especially a turbo setup you have the luxury of way more bottom end.

[i_eat_staples]

booo

[The Broker]

That really does suck.

[bloodstar57]

Completely true the demographic of people who buy these cars do not factor Gas prices into the equation.

[B6_Rakete]

You would think for efficiency reasons, they'd go with a sequential twin turbo V6 setup instead of a supercharger. Maybe they had bad experiences replacing many of the B5 turbos under warranty?

[SuperAvant]

For a roots blower with a bypass valve parasitic loss is less than 1hp when not under boost... so no big deal. My biggest problem with S/C setups is the lack of low end power. Usually power steeply climbs pretty linearly until redline, so you really need to keep your revs up to stay in your power band. With the V8 or especially a turbo setup you have the luxury of way more bottom end.

What? how does a bypass valve have anything to do with parasitic loss? A bypass valve is used for when the throttle is snapped shut on deceleration after being under boost. When it is snapped shut, the S/C is trying to force air into the closed throttle body housing until the air pressure on the inlet tube is lower than the compressed air in the throttle body housing and the air tries to pop back out causing surging. The bypass valve release the pressure thus eliminating this event. This process, bypass valve or not, does not have anything to do with parasitic loss as the only the reason the bypass valve is there is for consequences when a vehicle is decelerating. Parasitic loss from a Roots blower can vary from 20 - 1200 HP (funny Cars).

On top of this - S/C are the FI systems that have the low end torque, not turbos. S/C are directly driven off the engine giving them a linear torque curve like your said. So at 1000 RPMS you have pretty much the same increase in power as you do at the top end with a S/C. You hit the gas, and the S/C immediately goes to almost full boost (full boost is usually not completely reached until top end but it is very close at all RPMs) Now with turbos, it takes time for the exhaust to spool them, so there is a short period where torque is quite low because boost hasnt come on yet and the car is basically powering itself forward under little or no boost.

[GTMRS4]

the new YES! runs the 3.6L engine from Audi with a biturbo setup so I don't see why the new S4 couldn't be the same

[Mello]

On a roots blower, full boost will be reached much sooner than on a centrifical type supercharger where boost goes up with engine speed.

I don't think Audi will let us down. While it may not be the best car to tune, I'm sure it will live up to the S badge. A twin turbo 6 would have been tits though :/

[GTMRS4]

I'm waiting to order an RS5

[Noffy]

There have been plenty of rumors, I would not get all worried yet, I thought it was interesting they mention using a S/C and a TurboCharger. That could be interesting. Also the S4 has never been made by the performance division, so that fact that it still isn't does really represent a change at all. With all the discussion on this and other sites about how the audi cars match up against the bmw cars I though the most interesting part of the article was that it seems either audi, or maybe just the writer sees the S4 competeing with the 335i and the M3 vs RS4. Despite the logical conclusions this has been debated heavily in AZ.

I think that these rumors are just a good way to keep 1. people talking about a car that has not been announced and 2. the competition from knowing what audi is building.

[b spot]

On a roots blower, full boost will be reached much sooner than on a centrifical type supercharger where boost goes up with engine speed.

You've got that backwards. Roots boost is directly correlated to RPM's.

[EuroB6]

this sucks. Nothing else to say. Not one good thing I read about this new S4. Of course the price will be cheaper. Should've been TT or stayed with the V8.

Seriously, the way they are downgrading the S4, to compete with the 335, they should just rebadge the car as something else.

[SuperAvant]

Seriously, the way they are downgrading the S4, to compete with the 335, they should just rebadge the car as something else.

I read that it might not have an S4 badge...

[SuperAvant]

You've got that backwards. Roots boost is directly correlated to RPM's.

Hes right - Roots blowers make the most power of any S/C down low. So you stomp on the gas and instant boost. They suffer on the higher end from not being able to make as much boost as a centrifigual.

[b spot]

Hes right - Roots blowers make the most power of any S/C down low. So you stomp on the gas and instant boost. They suffer on the higher end from not being able to make as much boost as a centrifigual.

Whoops. I confused airflow with boost. Airflow on a roots blower doesn't peak until redline, but since the engine needs less air at lower RPM's boost stays the same (in theory, in my supercharged car it was a little below peak boost until near redline because of leakage around the rotors).

So I guess it really depends on the application. For my 2.0L supercharged engine, the low end was pretty weak compared to a turbo (my friends GTI) but I guess this would be application specific, and not a general property.

[91gl]

i am actually pretty excited. i will definetly look into it once it is out

[EuroB6]

well..one good thing will be that a chip/pulley kit will easily put this car in the 12s.

[Ill 3.0]

well..one good thing will be that a chip/pulley kit will easily put this car in the 12s.

yup, and sound good doing it

[91gl]

well..one good thing will be that a chip/pulley kit will easily put this car in the 12s.

im liking the sound of that[O_O]

[quattro.it]

I would definitely prefer a V6 twin turbo to s/c because it's more easily tuned for more power. My lease expires in July '09 so I'm watching the new announcements closely. Even with the APR on my B7 the turbo lag is annoying me. Twin turbo helps but doesn't completely solve the problem. A5/S5 is still an option. Better fuel economy is still a + regardless of the people who say it doesn't matter in this segment of performance.

[Quattroownsyou]

I guess Audi's attitude is "you want performance...pay for it" by forcing performance minded drivers into the RS class. The next RS cars are rumored to be Twin Turbo (most likely V8's). The S4 with a blower is disappointing. 340hp on a supercharged V6 is pretty close to the ceiling as far as power goes.

Funny thing is the 335i in stock mode really lacks punch at the top of 4th and 5th gear (i know, i've driven it many times). It runs out of air..this is where the big V8 in the current S4 really shines...to bad Audi is deciding to go the other way with a smaller displacement motor.

[littleredwagen]

all this SC nonsense doesn't make sense, why completely design a new engine to have similiar power to one you already manfacture and is reliable, Also VAG has not had good luck with supercharged cars in the past. I can not come out with a business case for SC v6 to exsist. Also to certify it for US will also add to the cost, and that cost is directly translated to the customer cars not absored, I mean S4s don't sell like toyota camrys do. I will wait for Audi to announce the car to see its power plant

[Ill 3.0]

340hp on a supercharged V6 is pretty close to the ceiling as far as power goes.

yes and no. I'm expecting about 350 chp with just bolt-ons (including catless downpipes) at 10 psi. 3.0 King dyno'd at just over 300 awhp with a similar setup, but with water-meth and custom tuning and still at 10 psi. The weakness for me to push my current setup is the cast pistons. There may be some built supercharged 3.0s in the works so we'll see how they handle more boost. But they'll likely max out around 400-450 awhp, and wouldn't ever see the 500+ whp that big turbo setups can yield.

[B18b1ex]

all this SC nonsense doesn't make sense, why completely design a new engine to have similiar power to one you already manfacture and is reliable, Also VAG has not had good luck with supercharged cars in the past. I can not come out with a business case for SC v6 to exsist. Also to certify it for US will also add to the cost, and that cost is directly translated to the customer cars not absored, I mean S4s don't sell like toyota camrys do. I will wait for Audi to announce the car to see its power plant

The reasons for what I've heard are:

Fuel economy should rise by 20%.

And it could lower cost, the target price is supposed to be between the old price of the B5 $42K and the B6/B7 $50-52k.

The last sc car I remember was the corrado, that was 90-91, I'm sure things have changed, they are not using a centrifugal SC, it a new roots type probably from eaton. I had one on my LS/Vtec 1.8 civic and the power right of idle was a hell of a lot of fun. The car should perform extremely well especially 0-60 numbers, if geared correctly.

Also I was told that AUDI may be considering an upgrade package with it's own software and pulley combo. I think it could be a fun car, look at how many of us love our v8's even though they are not tuner friendly.