Thinking of going BT

[jursch2211]

I'm thinking of going to the GT28R turbo and I was wondering what else would be needed? From what I read I don't think I need a new exhaust manifold or would it be recommended? I have exhaust already and a FMIC is on its way to me. Any suggestions?

[b6a4]

wait for it.....

[CARTEL]

yeah, save your money and buy something with more powar to begin with!!

[[email protected]]

First you need an Avant...

[jursch2211]

Anyone with some real suggestions? I should've been more specific but i'm on a budget and I still want to retain a stock like feel. A k04 is too small so I wanted something a little bigger.

[[email protected]]

Well if you have a FMIC then you just need to make sure your turbo has an eliminator flange in order to bolt up to your stock manifold otherwise you will need to change out the manifold.

After that... software, upgrade the clutch and possibly the brakes and see how you like the extra power.

[b6a4]

wow nobody said, "search!"

well here is a start:
http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=179590

[jursch2211]

I've already done the turbo comparison. That's not what I'm asking. I want to know if I would have to upgrade my engine internals if I decided to go with that turbo? I was thinking of going to the K04 but then I thought that BT is the way to go. After reading up on the turbo's, this one seemed like the most reasonable for me to go to, regarding finances. It's more powerful than the K04 and it similar in characteristics regarding installation but I what I want to know is with the more power that the GT28R gives, do I have to upgrade the engine to handle it. The K04 I don't, and I liked that because it meant less cost to me. If I do with the BT, then I may just have to settle with the K04. This is what I am trying to find out. Hope this is clear now and any suggestions from those who went to the BT, would be much appreciated.

[A4TL]

1.8T doesn't seem to fall apart until 300hp but yours could be an exception. gotta pay to play. i'd most certainly rebuild the bottom end if i had 100K on my 02 and wanted to go BT.

[Exanimas]

As they already stated, if you already have exhaust and a FMIC, assuming you go with an eliminator setup (because if you don't you have to get a new exhaust manifold), the only other thing you should need is an upgraded clutch. Upgraded brakes are def a good idea though to compensate for all the extra speed you gain.

Just a note, I didn't include things like bigger injectors / software etc. because that all comes with most kits. Check out something like this ATP kit. It gives you some details on what you might need on that page. Hope I helped (being new to this stuff and all).

[jursch2211]

Thanks guys, thats all I was looking for. The kit for the GT28R has everything including a HFC but because of emissions testing, I won't have that installed. I only have 61k on her now so I think I should be ok for a while. Maybe later I will go BAT and then do a rebuild. After this, I hope to get a number in the fraternity

[A4Dit]

No one stated that not upgrading a manifold will cause you to have high EGT's and force you to run lower boost to keep the temps down.

[A4ringedONE8T]

No one stated that not upgrading a manifold will cause you to have high EGT's and force you to run lower boost to keep the temps down.

The AWE 28R kit is what it is, high EGT's are not a worry of that kit, a blown motor because of the low end torque is!

[A4Dit]

The AWE 28R kit is what it is, high EGT's are not a worry of that kit, a blown motor because of the low end torque is!

I've heard about boost spikes from the 28r grenading engines but running high boost with a 28r wouldn't give you any egt worries?

[jursch2211]

I've heard the same regarding the boost spikes but you can control that with an EBC

[A4ringedONE8T]

I've heard about boost spikes from the 28r grenading engines but running high boost with a 28r wouldn't give you any egt worries?

A boost spike is not what causes high EGT's, a turbo running out of its efficiency range causes high EGT's. The way the new GIAC file runs, it doesnt run shit for boost (or power) because of the damage the old file did to multiple motors

[A4TL]

egt's melt pistons and valves, all pistons are aluminum 1650F and they melt. forged cast whatever.

detonation is what bends the rods which ejects the pistons out the side of the block (or through the head). forged rods obviously do not bend as easily.

once you fix up those two areas; you'll move to the next weakest link - the head gasket. alot cheaper to replace a head gasket than a block; then again if you wash the oil with coolant and fry the turbo and motor bearings you probably will cry too.

super suck-ness is when your motor ejects a piece of metal into your brand new turbo leaving you with dead turbo and motor :)

gotta pay to play man. If you can't afford to blow it up; should consider other options.

[dougyfresh]

How many miles are on your 2002?

Before you do anything, I would recommend a compression test to determine the mechanical health of your engine. If those numbers come up low I would NOT recommend an upgraded turbo system without rebuilding your motor.

[jursch2211]

^ is this true with going to any new turbo, even K04?

[A4ringedONE8T]

^ is this true with going to any new turbo, even K04?

Engine health is important even with the stock turbo ...

[dougyfresh]

Put it this way. You spend all kinds of $$ to go with a larger turbo system (K04 or bigger) and you get it running and driving. Then the car doesn't seem to be behaving as expected.

Turns out you had a small issue that was benign under stock boost levels. Now you've significantly increased your boost levels and cylinder pressures. Issues start to manifest themselves and your wallet now is burning.

A simple mechanical check to gauge engine health is a safe measure.

[jursch2211]

^ good point. Do you know if they do any of these tests during the scheduled maintenance or is it upon request? Thanks for bringing this to my attention, didn't even think about that

[absolutegtr]

Quick Question.....I have heard that when performing a compression test you want the engine to be hot...correct? (So the rings have seated)

If that is so, then you would risk stripping the threads in the aluminum head (when removing the spark plugs)

[dougyfresh]

Warm. It doesn't have to be super hot. Just warm. Shouldn't have a problem with the threads if you used anti-seize on your plugs. The compression tester is hand tight with a dab of oil on the o-ring for sealing.

This is the tester I have:
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=95187

Here is a good DIY:
http://www.audigeeks.com/forums/index.php?topic=2769.0

[DenverNoob]

egt's melt pistons and valves, all pistons are aluminum 1650F and they melt. forged cast whatever.

detonation is what bends the rods which ejects the pistons out the side of the block (or through the head). forged rods obviously do not bend as easily.

once you fix up those two areas; you'll move to the next weakest link - the head gasket. alot cheaper to replace a head gasket than a block; then again if you wash the oil with coolant and fry the turbo and motor bearings you probably will cry too.

super suck-ness is when your motor ejects a piece of metal into your brand new turbo leaving you with dead turbo and motor :)

gotta pay to play man. If you can't afford to blow it up; should consider other options.

couple of thoughts here...you are correct to a degree...but you mentioned before that 300HP is a limit for the 1.8t on stock internals...and I will offer you these thoughts...HP never hurt a motor per-se, because HP is a mathmatical calculation. tourque, however, does. stock rods can take about 100 lb/ft of torque per cyl...roughly 400 total (although this leaves cyl 2 the most vulnerable because it will hit that # before the rest if the user is stock intake/exhaust manifolds due to how the air flows through these). EGTs have not typically been a problem on these motors (as not many files really run lean enough to cause that level of detonation...just not dreadfully common.

the torque spike of these two turbos, the k04 and the gt28r should be worried about...they can and DO make enough power to toss a rod if the conditions are right...and they have (k04 included). it has nothing to do with temps...simply stated...the stock rods in the AMB are really kind of noodle-esqe compared to other forged rods seen in 1.8t motors like the TT225.

next thought...head gasket...again, not the problem. Stock strech bolts are, however. going into a high-boost application should cause a person to think really hard about spending a little extra coin and getting head studs...much better clamping and reusability make these a better choice...even on a gt28r app. I have seen a k04 car lifting the head off the block as a result of the stock stretch bolts...had nothing really to do with the gasket (although that was certainly trashed as a result). Stock head gasket is typically fine (unless one would be looking to alter compression in that manner by adding/deleting one or so).

lastly, and i know you were mostly joking about the thrown metal into the turbo comment...but again not dreadfully likely. 1.8t pistons are not likely to go shoothing though the head...tapping the valves of course is a concern...but the heads are pretty robust. In a blown motor situation...i would be more concerned about the oil blowing through a hot turbo exhaust housing and coking everywhere... throwing the wheel way off-balance and hence it making contact with the housing itself...rendering the turbo virtually useless for future use.

I have seen all of the above situations and one thing I will say....I agree 100% that if you cant afford to pay for the repair of a blown motor...it is best to stay away from turbo upgrades without putting the necessary coin into rebuilding a motor from the ground up.

[dougyfresh]

next thought...head gasket...again, not the problem. Stock strech bolts are, however. going into a high-boost application should cause a person to think really hard about spending a little extra coin and getting head studs...much better clamping and reusability make these a better choice...even on a gt28r app. I have seen a k04 car lifting the head off the block as a result of the stock stretch bolts...had nothing really to do with the gasket (although that was certainly trashed as a result). Stock head gasket is typically fine (unless one would be looking to alter compression in that manner by adding/deleting one or so).

The majority of us around here don't need head studs...

Winston was looking into this:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3569837

[DenverNoob]

The majority of us around here don't need head studs...

Winston was looking into this:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3569837

not calling the stock bolts inadequate...however better safe than sorry. given that I have seen a number of heads lifted as the result of the stretch bolts not clamping enough over the course of time...a little extra $$ here and there can be worth its weight in gold.

though stock head bolts are indeed inexpensive...unless the modder is going to do the project themselves (remove head, clean contact surfaces, change out all gaskets, and reinstall themselves) then the cast of $300ish up front for head studs will pale in comparison to parts and labor to replace even just one stretch bolt should the head lift. its not just replacing a gasket and reinstalling...done properly one should change all associated gaskets (valve cover, cam chain tensioner, head), bolts, as well as machine both the block and head ever so slightly to make sure they meet on completely even surfaces. some people certainly choose not to do so, and I would argue they do so to their own future detriment.

Just my thoughts.

[jursch2211]

I'll admit i'm a noob and I never thought there would be some much to consider even with a simple K04 upgrade. I'm glad I asked these questions before I did anything serious. Thanks guys, your input has been really helpful.

[DenverNoob]

I'll admit i'm a noob and I never thought there would be some much to consider even with a simple K04 upgrade. I'm glad I asked these questions before I did anything serious. Thanks guys, your input has been really helpful.

its not that these things are all necessary....just that they are def. things to consider. While I will tell you what I have seen personally (as stated above) keep in mind that now, 95% of these updates will work flawlessley...even with stock internals. I just stated all of the above to give you an idea as to what CAN happen...not what happens often. It is always good to have a "slush fund" for your modded car should the worst happen...you just have to be prepared to shell out some coin at the end of the day if there is a problem.

[dougyfresh]

Ted,
I agree with most of your comments but still think the majority of the people on this forum do not need to spend the extra money for head studs. There may be a few B5 guys using them (in addition to Mike) but, again, not too many are using them or see a need/necessity for them.




To the OP...
Do you have any thoughts (albeit they could be small) of going beyond a K04? If not, then don't sweat rebuilding your motor. There is some good info here but I never intended to scare you away from modding your vehicle. The K04 software is tried and true and many people here are running that set-up on a stock motor (internals-wise).

Start with a compression test and make sure your maintenance is up to date (gaskets aren't leaking, timing belt has been changed, etc...) and you should be good to go from there.

[DenverNoob]

Ted,
Start with a compression test and make sure your maintenance is up to date (gaskets aren't leaking, timing belt has been changed, etc...) and you should be good to go from there.

x2.....that is VERY good advice.

[DenverNoob]

Ted,
I agree with most of your comments but still think the majority of the people on this forum do not need to spend the extra money for head studs. There may be a few B5 guys using them (in addition to Mike) but, again, not too many are using them or see a need/necessity for them.

I would agree...i was implying its something to consider heavilly if one is already building a motor from the inside out...if a person is already getting pistons, rods, valves, springs, turbo, etc....spending an extra $300 on studs is a relatively minor expense when everything is already apart and the motor is already gutted. If a person is not doing the above...agreed...a very expensive and relatively unnecessary upgrade. Just peace of mind at the end of the day....I personally feel based on what I have seen (a lot lately as I have been helping out the shop that works on my car a couple of days a week) that if someone is building up a motor...they are potentially going to make the kind of power that may warant that type of upgrade.

most do not need studs though...agreed 100%

[jursch2211]

To the OP...
Do you have any thoughts (albeit they could be small) of going beyond a K04? If not, then don't sweat rebuilding your motor. There is some good info here but I never intended to scare you away from modding your vehicle. The K04 software is tried and true and many people here are running that set-up on a stock motor (internals-wise).

Start with a compression test and make sure your maintenance is up to date (gaskets aren't leaking, timing belt has been changed, etc...) and you should be good to go from there.[/QUOTE]

For right now i'm just deciding between K04 and the BT(money permitting). It is my daily driver for now and as far as "paying to play," well i'm trying to save up for something nicer and keeping this as my toy so maybe later on down the road, I will do a complete engine build. It wasn't so much as you scaring me into what happens if I upgraded as much as how much more there was to it that shocked me. Like I said before, I'm a noob when it comes to these cars. Thanks for your input tho. Where is the best place to get the compression test tool?

[dougyfresh]

For right now i'm just deciding between K04 and the BT(money permitting). It is my daily driver for now and as far as "paying to play," well i'm trying to save up for something nicer and keeping this as my toy so maybe later on down the road, I will do a complete engine build. It wasn't so much as you scaring me into what happens if I upgraded as much as how much more there was to it that shocked me. Like I said before, I'm a noob when it comes to these cars. Thanks for your input tho. Where is the best place to get the compression test tool?

I share the same feelings. My AVant was a daily driver and I have always wanted to keep it for life and do some cool stuff with it. The time has come so I bought a Jeep Cherokee to drive to work (paid less than I paid for any of my bicycles). Now I'm building a new motor and switching to a different turbo and planning on having some fun with this. I kind of knew what was involved and its not that difficult from my perspective. Then again I'm fairly handy around these vehicles and vehicles in general..

Don't hesitate to ask any of us and hopefully we can provide sound information and not add clutter to confuse you.


See my post #24 in this thread for a compression test tool. You can also find them at Sears or other such quality stores.