My dyno sheets from the March 31 dyno day

[[email protected]]

I took the car to the dyno and my guys decided to stop the runs as they didn't like what they were hearing and seeing excessive venting from the catch can.

Limped the wagon back to the shop and they did a leakdown test the next day and here are the results I was handed

cyl 1 75%
cyl 2 80%
cyl 3 80%
cyl 4 30%

So the rattling noise I was getting boosting to 26psi was not from the chain cam or the lifters, it was from the exhaust valves that got bent/burnt/damaged

Here are the dyno results from the couple of runs that were done. Not bad considering I was pretty much running on 3 cylinders.

I'll be replacing all of the valves, springs and retainers with Supertech parts, retune and go back to the dyno again.

[apexslider]

ouch. Sorry to hear that, I'm eager to see the "real" numbers. Whats the ETA on getting back to the dyno?

[Tgr_Clw]

You know if you disable one more cylinder I think I'll beat you.

Good luck Winston and sorry to hear about your troubles.

[[email protected]]

Yeah... kind of sucks I keep breaking OEM parts but I don't think any of them were meant to take 2-2.5x the power output from the engine.

The valves, springs and retainers are the only OEM pieces left in the engine and I could have taken heed to the warnings that I should upgrade the springs and exhaust valves but I thought I would be fine and wouldn't float a valve.

So everything has come full circle. Car went to Blitzkrieg to replace the head 6 months ago and I decide to do a BT upgrade... 6 months later the car is back at the shop due to head problems

But I'm itching to get this part done so I can go back and see what this machine can do.

[apexslider]

What kind of numbers are you hoping for?

[[email protected]]

On a DynoDynamics unit? I would be happy with 320awhp and jumping up and down if I hit 350awhp at 26+psi

[apexslider]

whats that convert to on a Dyno Jet? Is that on pump gas?

[A4TUNE]

do you have base runs on a dyno dynamics? the numbers are nice to see but aren't very accurate(maybe not the right word..) without base runs.

[[email protected]]

I have had all my dyno pulls on the same machine albeit different atmospheric conditions.

Here is my K04 chart. Note that I made more power with a busted engine and a BAT

blue - k04 + intercooler
red - stage 1+ intercooler
violet - stage 1+

[986Jim]

The best info I can find shows the K04 will only do 30-32lbs per min. Thats about 420cfm which is just enough for 250-280hp. With such a small turbo how are you going to hit 300-350hp even running 26psi which is way past the turbos efficiency? This is based only on looking at the compressor map for a K04 and the overall efficiency which is to say not very good.

Do you have a hybrid or somehow otherwise modified K04? I do a lot of turbo stuff and racing but not much with the K04 so if I'm missing something here fill me in. Have guys made 350whp before on a K04?

My talon with a T3/T4 50trim which is 49lbs/min which is just over 600cfm good for roughly 400hp. (average 150cfm per 100hp) and with 22psi of boost on the stock motor I made 323whp. With 26psi I made 357whp. I built the motor and upped the compression to 9:1 from 8.5:1 and ported the head with some Comp Cams and ran the same 26psi to make 424whp. I was right at the end of the turbo efficiency however. The 50trim is almost double the size of a K04 and I struggled to hit 400whp with it on a 2.0L motor which is known to make massive HP easily. A 60-1 fixed all that however (60lbs/min 750cfm )

Regards,

[edit]I am not trying to be rude or argue do not take it that way, I'm interested and am just honestly asking for some clarification because you seem to know what your talking about, thats all!

[EBG 18T]

The best info I can find shows the K04 will only do 30-32lbs per min. Thats about 420cfm which is just enough for 250-280hp. With such a small turbo how are you going to hit 300-350hp even running 26psi which is way past the turbos efficiency? This is based only on looking at the compressor map for a K04 and the overall efficiency which is to say not very good.

Do you have a hybrid or somehow otherwise modified K04? I do a lot of turbo stuff and racing but not much with the K04 so if I'm missing something here fill me in. Have guys made 350whp before on a K04?

My talon with a T3/T4 50trim which is 49lbs/min which is just over 600cfm good for roughly 400hp. (average 150cfm per 100hp) and with 22psi of boost on the stock motor I made 323whp. With 26psi I made 357whp. I built the motor and upped the compression to 9:1 from 8.5:1 and ported the head with some Comp Cams and ran the same 26psi to make 424whp. I was right at the end of the turbo efficiency however. The 50trim is almost double the size of a K04 and I struggled to hit 400whp with it on a 2.0L motor which is known to make massive HP easily. A 60-1 fixed all that however (60lbs/min 750cfm )

Regards,

[edit]I am not trying to be rude or argue do not take it that way, I'm interested and am just honestly asking for some clarification because you seem to know what your talking about, thats all!

I think you may have missed the part where he is No Longer using a K04, But running a GT3076 instead.

[986Jim]

Nevermind I see you have a GT3076.. Ok, that will do it! Thats basically a 56trim that will pump over 50 lbs/min. You should hit 350whp with that fairly easily. I see you are running only 550cc injectors, you will be getting close to your duty cycle with those. To make 350whp I had 660 and later on 750s. I would bump your base pressure up quite a bit to maximize those 550cc's say to 45psi base, that will give you some extra head room up top.

I'm anxious to see your results...

[mtbrider]

Your car is to powerful winston...dyno dynamics are heartbreaker dynos

[dougyfresh]

Limped the wagon back to the shop and they did a leakdown test the next day and here are the results I was handed

cyl 1 75%
cyl 2 80%
cyl 3 80%
cyl 4 30%

Holy shit. I've never seen leakage numbers that big. That sucks. Do you think you'll get to snap some photos of the head pre-disassembly? I'd like to see those valves.

[[email protected]]

I think they gave me the results backwards as cylinder 4 was only holding 30% (leaking 70%) and that where they think the bent valve is.

So the results 'should' be this:

cyl 1 25%
cyl 2 20%
cyl 3 20%
cyl 4 70%

Still not great results and when I asked what proper percentages would be they said 97% (hold) or 3% (leak)

I'll see if I can get in there with a camera to take some pics of the head before they take it apart and send it to the machine shop for checkup.

[A4ringedONE8T]

Nevermind I see you have a GT3076.. Ok, that will do it! Thats basically a 56trim that will pump over 50 lbs/min. You should hit 350whp with that fairly easily. I see you are running only 550cc injectors, you will be getting close to your duty cycle with those. To make 350whp I had 660 and later on 750s. I would bump your base pressure up quite a bit to maximize those 550cc's say to 45psi base, that will give you some extra head room up top.

I'm anxious to see your results...

You obviously know nothing about the B6 A4 and its fuel system. You can not raise the fuel pressure on our cars!

[k0mpresd]

On a DynoDynamics unit? I would be happy with 320awhp and jumping up and down if I hit 350awhp at 26+psi

just for comparison, my gt30r car made 327 @ all 4 wheels @ ~20-21psi. mustang dyno

[dougyfresh]

I think they gave me the results backwards as cylinder 4 was only holding 30% (leaking 70%) and that where they think the bent valve is.

So the results 'should' be this:

cyl 1 25%
cyl 2 20%
cyl 3 20%
cyl 4 70%

Still not great results and when I asked what proper percentages would be they said 97% (hold) or 3% (leak)

I'll see if I can get in there with a camera to take some pics of the head before they take it apart and send it to the machine shop for checkup.

Wait. You are confusing me, Winston. This quote is "Percentage held"?? Not "Percentage leak?"

For my benefit (because this is how I interpret leak-down results), Please keep it as "Percentage Leak".

[joe.audi]

ooooooo that sucks

[dirtybrd]

A bent valve will not hold any pressure what so ever, unlike bad rings. A bent valve is like an open hole.

[k0mpresd]

A bent valve will not hold any pressure what so ever, unlike bad rings. A bent valve is like an open hole.

i was thinking the same thing

you cant have valve damage on a cylinder and only part leak down. if you had damaged valve train pieces that cylinder would have 0 compression

[dirtybrd]

i was thinking the same thing

you cant have valve damage on a cylinder and only part leak down. if you had damaged valve train pieces that cylinder would have 0 compression

Exactly, I think he might have burned a piston. I hope not but thats how is sounds. Unless they didn't lap the valves in good enough.

[k0mpresd]

or his rings did not seal properly

[dirtybrd]

Or that.

[k0mpresd]

Or that.

..check your thread

[[email protected]]

The rings were sealed fine as everything was cool until the cam chain tensioner failed and something else happened to the exhaust valves at the same point in time.

My guys are guessing that a valve might be bent or the valves may have been burned. To me it makes no difference as they all have to come out anyway.

I am hoping that there is no damage to the pistons and rings as that would really piss me off.

[dirtybrd]

Oh, I misunderstood. I thought the tens. was ok and the noise was from else where.

[A4ringedONE8T]

What was the cause of all this? Do you know?

Ive been running up to 7200 recently and dont forsee any problems, you weren't reving above that were you?

[a2gtinut]

find better shop. what kind of shop does not have borescope?
Before taking everything apart look inside and make a judgement.

[Roy munson]

Borescope,lol You must work for an F1 team. Leak is all that needs to be done. Its simple, cylinders dont seal=cylinder head needs to come off. No rocket science there, too funny.

[dougyfresh]

I boroscoped my engine. It was easier than pulling a head.

[Roy munson]

you can fix valves without taking a head off? You are good man. borescope,hahaha. A good scope costs more then these engines
http://buy1.snapon.com/products/diag...s/eepv309a.asp
By the way, only hacks leak down engines. What was that shop thinking

[dougyfresh]

I never said I fixed anything without taking the cylinder head off. I just said I inspected my valves, post leak-down test, with a boroscope (I borrowed it from work. I use them all the time climbing up the tail end of jet aircraft engines to inspect turbine hardware).

[Roy munson]

go re-inspect the car. But it seems that the results of the leak pretty much sums it up. Am i correct in saying this?Checking it with a scope is not going to change the leak, or will it? Cant really leak down a jet engine, so a scope would be a good tool to use where as a leak down tester pretty much sums it up for a dinosaur which is the internal combustion engine.

[dougyfresh]

Your right. Original poster should go tell his shop to go re-inspect the car. But it seems that the results of the leak pretty much sums it up. Am i correct in saying this?Checking it with a scope is not going to change the leak, or will it? Cant really leak down a jet engine, so a scope would be a good tool to use where as a leak down tester pretty much sums it up for a dinosaur which is the internal combustion engine.

Correct. A leak-down test pretty much tells you if you're piston rings or valves are not sealing properly. If those numbers are excessive then you really should be pulling the head for a visual. If they are within 10-20% leakage then its all up to the owner of the vehicle.

I don't think Winston (OP) told us his compression test results. Typically that would be done first and then a leak-down (if warranted). With leakage as excessive as his I'm willing to bet his compression test results are bad and out of spec. Which would point you down the road of needing to do a leak-down to better understand why.



In my case, my compression test results were acceptable and we did a leakage test anyway. I had three independent European Auto Shop's conduct the test. Two of the shops results matched and the third did not. The results pointed to two cylinders having >20% leakage. I did not want to pull my head off for this is my daily driver. I visually inspected with the boroscope and concluded its time to build a new engine.

So, I'm still driving my car (albeit staying out of boost) and building a new engine on the side.

Aside.... We use boroscopes on jet engines for visual inspections (erosion, foreign object damage, etc...). Much, much cheaper than pulling the engine out of the airframe (or test stand) and tearing apart.

[Roy munson]

Its always up to the owner of the vehicle. Personally 20 percent is excessive. The point is that someone had stated before that a borescope would make a difference. Something as straight forward as this has a straight forward answer. Like i said, a borescope is not going to change things, a leak is a leak.Its the most important test of all, above compression. It tells the whole story, not just part. I have worked in motorsport for a couple of days now, i are mechanic, lol. Not trying to start a pissing match with you Dougy, just trying to understand the logic of jumping to the borescope as there is not any ground breaking discoveries being made here.

[dougyfresh]

Hmmm... I must have missed this quote:

find better shop. what kind of shop does not have borescope? Before taking everything apart look inside and make a judgement.

And can't find any reference to a borescope prior to that. I was reacting to your comment without seeing the post you commented about. I agree with your point. My apologies.

Yeah. I'm not happy with 20% which is why I'm building a new engine (AMU block from a TT225). Should I have just pulled my head? Probably, but that wouldn't have told me the condition of my rings (where I'm getting some of that 20% leakage through). I had a second engine sitting in my garage so it was easier to just build that and continue to drive my AVant.

Of course, now that I've started that whole process I'm picking up a Jeep this week to drive daily. (The Chevelle doesn't get driven and isn't in CT with me.)

[mike-2ptzero]

What was the cause of all this? Do you know?

Ive been running up to 7200 recently and dont forsee any problems, you weren't reving above that were you?

OEM valve train is good for 8k rpms and 500+whp, I know because I was running 100% OEM valve train till my last engine build. I didn't get any valve float till I started going past 8k rpm which caused them to get bent when they hit the tops of the pistons.

[A4ringedONE8T]

OEM valve train is good for 8k rpms and 500+whp, I know because I was running 100% OEM valve train till my last engine build. I didn't get any valve float till I started going past 8k rpm which caused them to get bent when they hit the tops of the pistons.

So I shouldnt worry going to 7200?

[A4 TSCHUSS]

I go to 7000 everyday like it's my job, I don't think another measly 200 is gonna make a difference.