Any S4 owners using Nitrogen in the tires?

[Audi Advocate]

Is it a gimmick or of value?
Thanks!

[wwb4]

I'd suggest contacting 2modfast, if I'm not mistaken he was running nitrogen filled tires on his B6 S4.

[Cargo8]

I have them. Whats the question? I mean, they are just supposed to not leak out as much, and they don't, i guess? =)

[quattro.it]

The tire pressure stays more consistent than air, cold tire to hot tire and wide variations in ambient temperature. My local Costco tire store uses nitrogen. I used it in my race car but don't see the real advantage in a street car. If it was as easy to find as air then fine, otherwise not worth the trouble IMO.

[ieatfishburitos]

I'm running roughly 78% nitrogen, 21% oxygen. It seems to be working well.

[Ill 3.0]

I'm running roughly 78% nitrogen, 21% oxygen. It seems to be working well.

that's amazing, me too

[Lugi20]

I'm running roughly 78% nitrogen, 21% oxygen. It seems to be working well.

21% Oxygen(O2) or atmosphere?

1% Leftover?

[brianmfournier]

I'm running roughly 78% nitrogen, 21% oxygen. It seems to be working well.

Damn it! I thought I was the one with this idea! Back to the drawing board for me

[corstiaanw]

I run nitrogen on my B7 S4 avant and it does keep the pressure more constant here in Texas where we had snow last week and it's 90 degrees today.

[CanuckRS]

I'm running roughly 78% nitrogen, 21% oxygen. It seems to be working well.

I am using approx 1% Argon and 0.0001% Krypton in addition
to 78% nitrogen and 21% oxygen.
It's superman proof.

[wwb4]

For those that have nitrogen filled tires.......have you noticed any ride quality difference.....also where did you get them filled.....and how much?

[RAudi Driver]

Got nitrogen in my MKV and no air pressure fluctuation. It rides the same as air.

[fitzS4]

i believe its just for those who have great temp changes because it will not change the size of the nitrogen molocules..

[1145climber]

Nitrogen is a ridiculous gimmick and waste of money. If it's free, go for it... if it costs a dollar or more, dont bother.

[Lugi20]

i believe its just for those who have great temp changes because it will not change the size of the nitrogen molocules..

Sorry man but molecules never change sizes (with the exception of isotopes but again, it is what it is and it never "changes" size). Temperature determines how "excited" molecules get so higher temps = more excited (read: faster moving) molecules which excert a higher pressure on whatever they run into. Nitrogen is not immune to this effect, that would be breaking the laws of chemistry and physics, which are the only laws that actually make sense to me anymore.

I cannot for the life of me understand why nitrogen > air > fumes from the back of my ass. You fill a tire to a certain pressure with a gas, end of story.

[B18b1ex]

i believe its just for those who have great temp changes because it will not change the size of the nitrogen molocules..

I think the theory about less pressure fluctuations is correct, but not because of size. The O=O double bond is not as strong as the N=N triple bond, so as temp (kinetic energy) changes, the O is more affected than the N would be.

[B18b1ex]

Sorry man but molecules never change sizes (with the exception of isotopes but again, it is what it is and it never "changes" size). Temperature determines how "excited" molecules get so higher temps = more excited (read: faster moving) molecules which excert a higher pressure on whatever they run into. Nitrogen is not immune to this effect, that would be breaking the laws of chemistry and physics, which are the only laws that actually make sense to me anymore.

I cannot for the life of me understand why nitrogen > air > fumes from the back of my ass. You fill a tire to a certain pressure with a gas, end of story.

Ions can can in size with charge, not molecules or isotopes.

[Lugi20]

I think the theory about less pressure fluctuations is correct, but not because of size. The O=O double bond is not as strong as the N=N triple bond, so as temp (kinetic energy) changes, the O is more affected than the N would be.

The strength of the bond still has nothing to do with how much pressure the gas exerts. Bond strength only relates to the molecules tendency to drop other atoms for more favorable atoms. Hydrogen (H) has only 1 valence electron in the first valence shell, which can hold 2 electrons. This is why hydrogen bonds so well with other atoms, like, Oxygen for example, which is missing 2 electrons from its outer most shell. This is why a very common molecule forms on our planet, you guessed it, H2O!

Listen, I will flat out tell you all that the most basic principle of fluids throws this Nitrogen bullshit out of the window.

ideal gas law: PV = nRT

P = Pressure
V = Volume
n = # of moles of gas
R = gas constant
T = Temperature

When you solve for the equations using the same gas, you will always cancel out nR, leaving you with PV=T.

Temperature, pressure, and volume will be exactly correlated whether you use atmosphere, nitrogen, or the fumes from the back of my ass.

It does not matter what gas you use with regards to pressure and temperature!!!

[fast_audi]

My local shop charges 100$ to fill all 4 tires. It is useless if you have air in your tires, you would have to remove the current air and refill with nitrogen. To do that, you would need 2 valves. The only advantage of nitrogen is to prevent pressure losses in cold climate or sudden abrupt weather changes. I haven't noticed any performace gains or road feel variability.

[cops04s4]

$100 wtf! Maybe it it made my car faster.....

[Ill 3.0]

ideal gas law: PV = nRT

yes, IDEAL gas law. as in it requires perfect conditions to be 100% accurate, which never happens in the real world. so end result, different gases do behave differently, negligible though they may be. Also, N2 should be slightly larger than O2, but not sure if that affects the rate at which it leaks out.

[1145climber]

Also, N2 should be slightly larger than O2, but not sure if that affects the rate at which it leaks out.

i've got an idea... how about you just fill up your tires a little more often and save 100 bucks?

anyone who PAYS to get nitrogen because of the fact that nitrogen molecules are bigger than oxygen molecules is foolish.

[Lugi20]

yes, IDEAL gas law. as in it requires perfect conditions to be 100% accurate, which never happens in the real world. so end result, different gases do behave differently, negligible though they may be. Also, N2 should be slightly larger than O2, but not sure if that affects the rate at which it leaks out.

My friend, this is the exact same equations used to calc steam (steam is a gas) cycles in bio-fired and nuclear power plants. However, by all means, show me how you plan on disproving this.

Don't let the semantics trip you up on the name: ideal gas LAW, you emphasized the wrong word. There are laws and there are theories, the operative word here is "law," nothing else matters. This is quite literally 100% accurate, 100% of the time.

In conclusion, I repeat:
It does not matter what gas you use with regards to pressure and temperature!!!

[va-terps4]

Lugi20 is right. Anybody who can't get this straight needs to take a high school chemistry class. It's a LAW... Not a hypothesis... Not a theory... Not a maybe. It doesn't have any caveats. PV = nRT... PERIOD.

Saying it doesn't work in the real world is like saying humans haven't been to the Moon. Believe what you want. Maybe you'd like to put a magnet on your fuel line? Can I interest you in a Turbonator too? With a little help, your S4 can get 100 mpg!

[Ill 3.0]

i've got an idea... how about you just fill up your tires a little more often and save 100 bucks?

Um, that is what I do. I never said I use 100% nitrogen. Just looking for ideas why some people do.

[fast_audi]

You cannot use the perfect gas law. Nitrogen is not an inert gas nor a perfect gas.

[B18b1ex]

The strength of the bond still has nothing to do with how much pressure the gas exerts. Bond strength only relates to the molecules tendency to drop other atoms for more favorable atoms. Hydrogen (H) has only 1 valence electron in the first valence shell, which can hold 2 electrons. This is why hydrogen bonds so well with other atoms, like, Oxygen for example, which is missing 2 electrons from its outer most shell. This is why a very common molecule forms on our planet, you guessed it, H2O!

Listen, I will flat out tell you all that the most basic principle of fluids throws this Nitrogen bullshit out of the window.

ideal gas law: PV = nRT

P = Pressure
V = Volume
n = # of moles of gas
R = gas constant
T = Temperature

When you solve for the equations using the same gas, you will always cancel out nR, leaving you with PV=T.

Temperature, pressure, and volume will be exactly correlated whether you use atmosphere, nitrogen, or the fumes from the back of my ass.

It does not matter what gas you use with regards to pressure and temperature!!!

If you read what I wrote you would understand that temp is a measure of kinetic energy the energy of motion(in this case molecular vibrations), and the stronger triple bound is less susceptible to changes in kinetic energy. The bottom line is the you would need more energy to cause the same temp change in Nitrogen gas than the same amount of Oxygen gas. And it is this CHANGE in temp that cause the tire pressure fluctuations.

The Ideal Gas law does not function in all situations, it assumes IDEAL, not real conditions!


BTW all the shit in your first paragraph has NOTHING to due with this discussion!

[B18b1ex]

Lugi20 is right. Anybody who can't get this straight needs to take a high school chemistry class. It's a LAW... Not a hypothesis... Not a theory... Not a maybe. It doesn't have any caveats. PV = nRT... PERIOD.

Saying it doesn't work in the real world is like saying humans haven't been to the Moon. Believe what you want. Maybe you'd like to put a magnet on your fuel line? Can I interest you in a Turbonator too? With a little help, your S4 can get 100 mpg!

You sir are wrong. There are conditions, I take it chemistry was not your forte either.

[Ill 3.0]

My friend, this is the exact same equations used to calc steam (steam is a gas) cycles in bio-fired and nuclear power plants. However, by all means, show me how you plan on disproving this.

I didn't mean to say it can't be used in real life situations, I wasn't aware it was. I was just saying that it won't be 100% accurate. I'm used to biological systems where "laws" are never describe the whole story. I also have no interest or knowledge to disprove PV=nRT. I also really don't care what people put in their tires, whether it be nitrogen or your ass gas as you mentioned. I was just thinking about reasons why it might be useful.

[va-terps4]

For volumes and pressures as low as those found in a typical automotive tire, it simply does not matter that nitrogen isn't a perfect gas. The only parts of the nitrogen argument that make any sense are these:

1. Nitrogen molecules are a little bigger than those of oxygen. They are theoretically less likely to migrate out of your tire between the rubber, steel, and kevlar structure.

2. Pure nitrogen is usually delivered as a very dry gas. This means there is significantly less moisture in the gas to condense on cold days, and the insides of your tires will be less likely to rot as a result of the dry environment.

HOWEVER... you need to keep a few things in mind:

1. The air you're breathing right now is 78% nitrogen already. There is 21% oxygen, and another 1% of other gases mixed in. So how much impact are you really going to have with pure nitrogen? At most, 22%.

2. Do the companies offering pure nitrogen purge the regular old air out of your tires (thus creating a vacuum) before they fill 'em up? Of course they don't. So you've already busted the whole pure nitrogen thing, and the humidity thing too.

3. I've had tires that were purchased, mounted, balanced, and filled at Costco... with "pure" nitrogen. Guess what... they showed just as much pressure variance in temperature extremes as the factory set.

4. You know what I did the first time it got cold and my pressure dropped? I pumped in a bunch of regular old air. Strangely, doing this didn't cause any extra sensitivity to temperature changes. Over the time I owned the tires, I needed to add air just as frequently as my old tires. The result... I had regular air in my tires shortly after they were installed.

The bottom line on this is exactly this: If having nitrogen in your tires makes you feel better, go for it. But don't kill yourself to get nitrogen in your tires. And whatever you do, don't pay extra for it.

[B18b1ex]

For volumes and pressures as low as those found in a typical automotive tire, it simply does not matter that nitrogen isn't a perfect gas. The only parts of the nitrogen argument that make any sense are these:

1. Nitrogen molecules are a little bigger than those of oxygen. They are theoretically less likely to migrate out of your tire between the rubber, steel, and kevlar structure.

2. Pure nitrogen is usually delivered as a very dry gas. This means there is significantly less moisture in the gas to condense on cold days, and the insides of your tires will be less likely to rot as a result of the dry environment.

HOWEVER... you need to keep a few things in mind:

1. The air you're breathing right now is 78% nitrogen already. There is 21% oxygen, and another 1% of other gases mixed in. So how much impact are you really going to have with pure nitrogen? At most, 22%.

2. Do the companies offering pure nitrogen purge the regular old air out of your tires (thus creating a vacuum) before they fill 'em up? Of course they don't. So you've already busted the whole pure nitrogen thing, and the humidity thing too.

3. I've had tires that were purchased, mounted, balanced, and filled at Costco... with "pure" nitrogen. Guess what... they showed just as much pressure variance in temperature extremes as the factory set.

4. You know what I did the first time it got cold and my pressure dropped? I pumped in a bunch of regular old air. Strangely, doing this didn't cause any extra sensitivity to temperature changes. Over the time I owned the tires, I needed to add air just as frequently as my old tires. The result... I had regular air in my tires shortly after they were installed.

The bottom line on this is exactly this: If having nitrogen in your tires makes you feel better, go for it. But don't kill yourself to get nitrogen in your tires. And whatever you do, don't pay extra for it.

I tend to agree with you, my statements were to address those who said it could not make a difference.

As for the purging idea, I have never seen how they fill a nitrogen tire and had the same concerns, and thus I don't run it in mine either.

[va-terps4]

You sir are wrong. There are conditions, I take it chemistry was not your forte either.

Apparently debate wasn't yours.

Seems to me that when tires get cold, they lose pressure... regardless of the gases inside them. Likewise, when they get hot, they gain pressure. Sounds pretty much like PV=nRT to me. Unless you have tires the size of the space shuttle's tanks or want to run cryogenic research with them, I really don't think any of your "conditions" are going to apply.

But then... since you seem to be telling us you are a chemistry wiz, feel free to explain. I'd love to hear from a real expert on this one. Explain for us how PV=nRT isn't the right formula for this discussion.

[Lugi20]

Not trying to pick fights or talk down to people. My apologies for rubbing anyone the wrong way.

[B18b1ex]

Apparently debate wasn't yours.

Seems to me that when tires get cold, they lose pressure... regardless of the gases inside them. Likewise, when they get hot, they gain pressure. Sounds pretty much like PV=nRT to me. Unless you have tires the size of the space shuttle's tanks or want to run cryogenic research with them, I really don't think any of your "conditions" are going to apply.

But then... since you seem to be telling us you are a chemistry wiz, feel free to explain. I'd love to hear from a real expert on this one. Explain for us how PV=nRT isn't the right formula for this discussion.

I wonder why you keep at this?

Here is the problem, why you can not apply the I deal gas law to real gases.

An ideal gas is defined as one in which all collisions between atoms or molecules are perfectly eleastic and in which there are no intermolecular attractive forces. In such a gas, all the internal energy is in the form of kinetic energy and any change in internal energy is accompanied by a change in temperature.

This is not the case with real gases. Period.
Can we be done with this now?

[va-terps4]

It's all good... I enjoy a good discussion...

[B18b1ex]

Me too.

[va-terps4]

I'm pushing it because I think the whole nitrogen in tires thing is bunk. I honestly suspect the nitrogen producers have contrived this as a method to sell more product.

I understand there can be differences between gases... in very large volumes of gas, or super high pressures. But for the regular old tire scenario, is it really the case that swapping less than 22% of your air volume for nitrogen will make a noticable difference?

Having run tires with and without nitrogen, I just don't see the difference in temperature variance. If there is a hard formula that can show the difference I'd love to see it. More importantly I'd love to see how big that difference really is.

So... anybody know what volume of air a typical car tire holds? That would be a good place to start I think.

[B18b1ex]

I'm pushing it because I think the whole nitrogen in tires thing is bunk. I honestly suspect the nitrogen producers have contrived this as a method to sell more product.

I understand there can be differences between gases... in very large volumes of gas, or super high pressures. But for the regular old tire scenario, is it really the case that swapping less than 22% of your air volume for nitrogen will make a noticable difference?

Having run tires with and without nitrogen, I just don't see the difference in temperature variance. If there is a hard formula that can show the difference I'd love to see it. More importantly I'd love to see how big that difference really is.

So... anybody know what volume of air a typical car tire holds? That would be a good place to start I think.

Not that I'm advocating it's use but the reasons are more than just pressure fluctuations.

Tires as well as most thing are porous the larger Nitrogen molecules may find it harder to escape (that is the thought) I'm not sure the role because of small difference in sizes. Oxygen is an enemy to many materials, (Oxidation) apparently the rubber in tires and valve stems also the metal in the stems and rims. Water vapor is also reduced as most tire shops do not have a proper working drier in their compressed air lines and as you compress air more water will come out of solution.

So there are several reasons for it's use, they are all real issues but I'm unsure how much they affect US as our tires don't last that long to worry about oxidation, most shops change the valve with each tire change.

For grandma who never even looks at her tires and run tires that are expected to last 60k nitrogen is a good choice, also for larger volume tires it would also be a plus, or if your car sits and is not driven often, for most of us (Car enthusiasts who drive their cars) it does not seem as relevant. This is just one man's opinion.

[fitzS4]

it was the concept of the size changing for some people to understand......thats the whole gimic.....some places now when you buy tires they will it up with nitro....

[AVANT-GARDE]

Use Helium. Just be careful during those high speed bursts on the freeway. Youll end up flying right out into the stratosphere.