Here's my dyno Numbers for MTM Stage 3 at Champion Motorsport...

**bhvrdr** · 08-03-2004 06:23 AM

Well, I arrived at Champion Motorsport at noon yesterday after a four hour drive. I met with Ben the dyno guy and Edick the technician. Both of these guys were great to deal with. We let the car cool down and strapped it on the Dynojet Dyno. Room temps were 82 degrees Farenheit.

What is important to note, is that of the four plots that I was able to get, none of them differed by more than 6hp or 12lb/ft of torque. All runs were performed utilizing 93 octane Mobil fuel. The only cooling utilized was the DSMICs and three shop fans.

The following is one of the average plots received during my first set of runs. The folling run was done after the car was sufficiently heat soaked. All NUMBERS are AT THE WHEELS.

The next run was an average of the second set of runs after installing the Level 1 N75 valve sleeve. This is the most conservative of the sleeves. Again, the car was sufficiently heat soaked and this is the second of three runs during this session.

The above runs are some examples of some average runs the car made. I was able to achieve between 199whp and 205whp during the sessions. Torque was between 249 lb/ft and 261lb/ft at the wheels.

I would like to thank Anthony at Greedspeed for getting out those N75 Valve sleeves. I will be returning to Champion in a couple weeks to test out the other two sleeves (Level 2 and 3). Thanks to Ben and Edick for spending a considerable amount of time explaining all that was going on to me and for making me feel part of the process. Also thanks to Joe, Mike, Ken, and Ashley over at Joe Hoppen Motorsports for getting this car running as well as it does. Cheers! Mike

**teutonic_blur** · 08-03-2004 06:54 AM

Nice numbers! Seems like your stage 3 is performing exactly as advertised.

**bhvrdr** · 08-03-2004 07:07 AM

Yup. That appears to be the case. In the case of torque, it may be a bit better than advertised. I'm content until the next round of upgrades :) cheers! mike

**CO AVANT** · 08-03-2004 07:18 AM

Nice!!! How much is MTM software going for? Or is it all one kit?

**Elberoth** · 08-03-2004 07:28 AM

No baseline dyno plots ?

**zemun2** · 08-03-2004 07:32 AM

Nice numbers man,
What gear pull were these runs?

D,

**bhvrdr** · 08-03-2004 07:34 AM

Thanks all. Unfortunately, these plots will be serving as my baseline. The MTM Stage 3 is sold as a kit and they normally refuse to sell components seperately. These were third hear pulls in my 5-speed quattro. cheers! Mike

**Elberoth** · 08-03-2004 07:40 AM

Originally posted by bhvrdr
Thanks all. Unfortunately, these plots will be serving as my baseline. The MTM Stage 3 is sold as a kit and they normally refuse to sell components seperately. These were third hear pulls in my 5-speed quattro. cheers! Mike

I was hoping that you dynoed a stock car before the install took place. Due to dyno variations, it is the only way to tell the real hp gain.

**S4g** · 08-03-2004 07:54 AM

Nice numbers. Heat soak is a Beotch. I guess the only way to avoid it is to let the car completly cool down.

Jon

**zemun2** · 08-03-2004 08:57 AM

Aren't they supposed to do 4th gear runs, cuz we saw 215WHP with E05 in 4th gear (Derrics-Villains car).
If you do it in 3rd you'll gain 10-15 WHP compared to 4th gear.

**Elberoth** · 08-03-2004 09:00 AM

Originally posted by zemun2
If you do it in 3rd you'll gain 10-15 WHP compared to 4th gear.

What makes you say that ?

**Saturnine** · 08-03-2004 09:03 AM

Yea, im not sure i agree with that?

**teknik** · 08-03-2004 09:08 AM

Usually 4th gear gains power over 3rd.

but ihave seen 1.8ts with inefficent IC lose power due to heatsoak.... this may be whats happening...

**Elberoth** · 08-03-2004 09:20 AM

If ANYTHING the 3-rd gear pull may resoult in LOWER numbers not higher. But that is only the case with engines equipped with BIG turbos (like T78'ed Supra) and 1.8T is not one of them.

It happens because the car reaches its max rpm so quickly on 3rg gear that the turbo does not have enough time to spool up to its max performance.

Other than that, there should be NO difference when the dyno is corectly calibrated.

BTW - Did I mentioned that this effect is not present on a load dyno ? Load dynos rules

**DLSJ5** · 08-03-2004 09:38 AM

Originally posted by bhvrdr
I was able to achieve between 199whp and 205whp during the sessions. Torque was between 249 lb/ft and 261lb/ft at the wheels.
[/B]

Fantastic #'s Mike,

Who the hell does baseline dyno's anyway? Except Jet that is.

You hear/read all kinds of theories and beliefs on how dyno's actually work but I think Zemun's correct; from what I've been told a 3rd gear run will give you slightly better numbers. 4th is 1 to 1 this is a more accurate gear to measure HP and TQ, but I'm no expert, hopefully someone will chime in that actually is. Regardless, excellent numbers and work, those rims look nice BTW.

**neoprufrok** · 08-03-2004 09:54 AM

Great numbers Mike... any word on previous 1.8t's dyno'ing there and their numbers?

**zemun2** · 08-03-2004 10:27 AM

Originally posted by Elberoth
If ANYTHING the 3-rd gear pull may resoult in LOWER numbers not higher. But that is only the case with engines equipped with BIG turbos (like T78'ed Supra) and 1.8T is not one of them.

It happens because the car reaches its max rpm so quickly on 3rg gear that the turbo does not have enough time to spool up to its max performance.

Other than that, there should be NO difference when the dyno is corectly calibrated.

BTW - Did I mentioned that this effect is not present on a load dyno ? Load dynos rules

I've dynoed my SK04 in 3rd and 4th within 1hour and 3rd gear pulls were 12-15 WHP higher than 4th.
Dave@ecode and Derrick (Villains) were both present.

**Elberoth** · 08-03-2004 10:50 AM

Originally posted by zemun2
I've dynoed my SK04 in 3rd and 4th within 1hour and 3rd gear pulls were 12-15 WHP higher than 4th.
Dave@ecode and Derrick (Villains) were both present.

So the dyno calibration must have been off.

**bhvrdr** · 08-03-2004 11:04 AM

Well when deciding which gear to stick with I had done some searches on AW to see what people were using and it appeared most people with the 5-speed were using 3rd and a lot of folks with the 6-speed were using 4th, so I just went with 3rd. I think all this goes to prove is that there are so many variables here that we need to be certain not to try and compare this guys whp numbers against another guys whp numbers. You just cant do it.

I found it interesting that Jet Jockey and my numbers (before his nutso N75) were almost identical. I have to remind myself that it is probably more coincidence than anything that our dynos happen to be putting out similar numbers and it doesnt even mean that are cars are actually similar in performance. Jet has a baseline for HIS car so his numbers not only mean something to him, but to others as well.

My numbers are only meaningful to me as a baseline. Yes, I can make some random guesstimates and apply correction factors ranging from a measly 18% to 26% but in the end those are all total guesses that are meaningless. Trying to compare anyone's elses whp numbers to my numbers is impossible and would mean absolutely nothing.

Hey neo,
Thanks bud. Champion lost their hard drive and consequently all the old test mules they had on their computer. They had a stock 1.8T too. Oh well, i'm sure theyll get another one at some point. Either way, i'm happy with my numbers. cheers! Mike

**zemun2** · 08-03-2004 11:13 AM

Originally posted by Elberoth
So the dyno calibration must have been off.

This was done on brand new Dynojet, that thing was aprox. 2 months old, so I think dyno calibration issue is unlikely.

**Saturnine** · 08-03-2004 11:15 AM

Just because its new, doesnt mean its calibrated thou.

**bhvrdr** · 08-03-2004 11:28 AM

All dynos are going to be calibrated a bit DIFFERENTLY than others. It's not to say necessarily that one is better than the other just that they are not comparable. One you accept the fact that seperate dyno numbers are not comparable, all these other arguments are moot.

**zemun2** · 08-03-2004 11:29 AM

Originally posted by Saturnine
Just because its new, doesnt mean its calibrated thou.

When you spen $50K for a dyno machine they do come and install it for you and then calibrate it too.

**zemun2** · 08-03-2004 11:31 AM

Originally posted by bhvrdr
All dynos are going to be calibrated a bit DIFFERENTLY than others. It's not to say necessarily that one is better than the other just that they are not comparable. One you accept the fact that seperate dyno numbers are not comparable, all these other arguments are moot.

All I'm saying is lower the gear higher the WHP numbers. Thats why we can pull on cars in 1st gear and not in 2nd,3rd,4th or 5th.

**bhvrdr** · 08-03-2004 11:50 AM

Originally posted by zemun2
All I'm saying is lower the gear higher the WHP numbers. Thats why we can pull on cars in 1st gear and not in 2nd,3rd,4th or 5th.

In this case (and should be the case for most dyno operators) a mph reading is taken at 3000rpms to reference the specific gear being measured. The dyno will read the mph and later convert it over to rpms for the charts. Notice mine are in mph. Therefore it shouldnt really make a difference. Mike

**A4NCAR** · 08-03-2004 11:59 AM

Nice output. Glad to see that both you and Jet's Stage 3's are performing so well (and better then claimed). And that's some serious torque. No wonder Jet told me that his pulls like crazy compared to his Stage 2 set up. I just wonder how this kit would work with 91 craptane on my car.

**zemun2** · 08-03-2004 11:59 AM

Originally posted by bhvrdr
In this case (and should be the case for most dyno operators) a mph reading is taking a 3000rpms to reference the specific gear being measured. The dyno will read the mph and later convert it over to rpms for the charts. Notice mine are in mph. Therefore it shouldnt really make a difference. Mike

Trust me it does make a difference what gear you dyno your car in. Next time you get on dyno have them do it in 1st and 2nd and you'll be hitting 300WHP.
Same thing happened with my SK04, we dynoed it in 4th and got 156WHP and then NS did it themselves and got 170.
I haven't dynoed my car yet since it's been REVOed but planing on next week, I'll bring Gerard (G_A4) with me and will post both 3rd and 4th gear runs.
Not trying to put down your numbers just pointing the diff. between 2 diff. gear runs.

**A4NCAR** · 08-03-2004 12:04 PM

Originally posted by bhvrdr
Well when deciding which gear to stick with I had done some searches on AW to see what people were using and it appeared most people with the 5-speed were using 3rd and a lot of folks with the 6-speed were using 4th, so I just went with 3rd. I think all this goes to prove is that there are so many variables here that we need to be certain not to try and compare this guys whp numbers against another guys whp numbers. You just cant do it.

Except for 6th gear, I thought the gearing was identical between the 5 and 6 speed trannies. Also, my experience was that "pulls" should be done in 4th gear. I also did this when using a ProDiag to get measurements (4th gear from 60 mph).

**bhvrdr** · 08-03-2004 12:09 PM

Originally posted by A4NCAR
Nice output. Glad to see that both you and Jet's Stage 3's are performing so well (and better then claimed). And that's some serious torque. No wonder Jet told me that his pulls like crazy compared to his Stage 2 set up. I just wonder how this kit would work with 91 craptane on my car.

Darryl my brother, this kit would probably blow up on your car. If for no other reason than you are cursed by the mod gods:) You know i'm messing with you, but i think you make a good point that MTM appears a bit better tuned for 93 octane and above. Seems like some of the California companies who actually know how to manipulate the code may be better able to tune for that crap they force you all to put in your cars. Come to florida bro. We have oceans an palm trees and 93 octane. Who could ask for anything more? Cheers! Mike

**A4NCAR** · 08-03-2004 12:09 PM

Originally posted by zemun2
Trust me it does make a difference what gear you dyno your car in. Next time you get on dyno have them do it in 1st and 2nd and you'll be hitting 300WHP.
Same thing happened with my SK04, we dynoed it in 4th and got 156WHP and then NS did it themselves and got 170.
I haven't dynoed my car yet since it's been REVOed but planing on next week, I'll bring Gerard (G_A4) with me and will post both 3rd and 4th gear runs.
Not trying to put down your numbers just pointing the diff. between 2 diff. gear runs.

MAHA?

**zemun2** · 08-03-2004 12:09 PM

Originally posted by A4NCAR
Except for 6th gear, I thought the gearing was identical between the 5 and 6 speed trannies. Also, my experience was that "pulls" should be done in 4th gear. I also did this when using a ProDiag to get measurements (4th gear from 60 mph).

Lots of tuners do 3rd gear pulls in order to get higher numbers.
Me, Derrick and Dave attended dyno day in LA, dont know exact location since in not from LA. There was lots of WRXs and EVOs and a Skyline, with few Audis, and all the pulls were done in 4th gear.

**bhvrdr** · 08-03-2004 12:16 PM

I was informed that AWE did all of theirs in 3rd to come up with their numbers. I will be at least continue with 3rd gear pulls and maybe add 4th gear pulls in the future, but you can see that it would be stupid for me to start only doing 4th gear pulls since my baseline is 3rd. Again, it really is not an issue unless you are trying to compare my numbers to other numbers which CANNOT BE DONE. It's easy to try and walk down that road and say well if he had done it in this gear than we could compare it better to this guys numbers and thats just not the case. These compaisons cannot be made without a control group (baseline dyno). cheers! mike

**A4NCAR** · 08-03-2004 12:20 PM

Originally posted by bhvrdr
Darryl my brother, this kit would probably blow up on your car. If for no other reason than you are cursed by the mod gods:) You know i'm messing with you, but i think you make a good point that MTM appears a bit better tuned for 93 octane and above. Seems like some of the California companies who actually know how to manipulate the code may be better able to tune for that crap they force you all to put in your cars. Come to florida bro. We have oceans an palm trees and 93 octane. Who could ask for anything more? Cheers! Mike

LOL. I'll have something soon I hope, in the way of a flawlessly performing engine upgrade. BTW, I've been to Florida many times (parents are from there). Love the weather, Gulf ocean,...

But hey, we got ocean and palm trees too

**bbaudi382** · 08-03-2004 12:57 PM

i say we do a middle of america dyno day and get anybody who wants to go to dyno. SAME dyno, SAME day.

of course i'm not willing to make the drive =P

**bhvrdr** · 08-03-2004 01:03 PM

I like that thought. Only problem is that the middle of America is flat and boring. How about a Cannonball run from Califorinia to Florida. I'll man the finish line :)

**Elberoth** · 08-03-2004 01:35 PM

Originally posted by zemun2
This was done on brand new Dynojet, that thing was aprox. 2 months old, so I think dyno calibration issue is unlikely.

You mean CrapoJet ?

Sorry, but it has been proven many times, that dynojet numbers cannot be trusted.

I'm not telling you that the MAHA dyno is THE only one. There are other reliable dynos out there - Mustang, DynoDynamics, Dastek to name a few - but DynoJet is not one of them.

It's a pity that I do not have the time right now to go to my friends shop where they have the new, 4x4 load dyno installed (able to brake cars up to 1650 hp - 3 pararell engines 550hp each !) to compare 3rd and 4th gear runs.

**neoprufrok** · 08-03-2004 02:11 PM

Dejan,

I think that Mike has stated many times that he chose 3rd gear pulls for a reason. Not only that, but since you cannot compare dyno numbers vs a different dyno, it doesn't really matter what gear you're pulling in.

What matters in the end is the difference between baseline and upgraded dyno runs, which we aren't yet able to know because Champion's computer went awry.

**zemun2** · 08-03-2004 05:42 PM

Originally posted by Elberoth
You mean CrapoJet ?

Sorry, but it has been proven many times, that dynojet numbers cannot be trusted.

I'm not telling you that the MAHA dyno is THE only one. There are other reliable dynos out there - Mustang, DynoDynamics, Dastek to name a few - but DynoJet is not one of them.

It's a pity that I do not have the time right now to go to my friends shop where they have the new, 4x4 load dyno installed (able to brake cars up to 1650 hp - 3 pararell engines 550hp each !) to compare 3rd and 4th gear runs.

Dude,
I'm not gonna argue with you. I did 15 runs on 2 different dynos, some of them in 3rd and some in 4th gear, and 3rd gear runs always had greater WHP numbers.
I dont even understand why you even post if you never compared 3rd and 4th gear runs. Do your homework and then come back and post. It might be my car, it might be dynojets and mustangs (NS dyno of my car).

**Elberoth** · 08-03-2004 06:36 PM

Originally posted by zemun2
Dude,
I'm not gonna argue with you. I did 15 runs on 2 different dynos, some of them in 3rd and some in 4th gear, and 3rd gear runs always had greater WHP numbers.
I dont even understand why you even post if you never compared 3rd and 4th gear runs. Do your homework and then come back and post. It might be my car, it might be dynojets and mustangs (NS dyno of my car).

Yes that is true, I have never made 3rd gear runs of my car.

But I have spoken with two independent engineers who are actually involved in dyno design, and they both told me what I have told you.

And BTW - the forum in general would benefit more if you rather try to share with ppl your technical knowledge or even better offer a technical explanation, than insults.

**Jet Jockey** · 08-03-2004 06:58 PM

Man this dyno stuff is getting people really excited here on this forum.

Tell you what, I'm going to design and build my own dyno and we, here at Audizine will make it the "OFFICIAL DYNO" and that will be that.

Oh yeah, one more thing before everyone jumps on me and my dyno runs...

Mine were done in fourth (4) gear! The Dynapack recalibrates it for a perfect 1:1 ratio, so there!

Be happy, peace!

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