Argh! So Pissed! Freakin Gfb!!!

[fongaroos]

ok so here is my crude drawing of my GFB HYBRID BOV.

the way i initially installed my GFB with the CHARGED AIR on the side marked "A"

and when i let off the throttle the charged air is rerouted back into the intake tract through "B"

is this the right way to install the DV?

i installed it this way and the car felt SOOOO SLUGGISH!!!

it also showed a CEL!!!



so i thought maybe i installed it backwards...
so after i installed so that the CHARGED AIR was on the "B" side and the rerouted air went in through the "A" side.

i drove the car and it felt GREAT!

but for some reason it wont vent...

ARGH!!!

it just flutters

ANY THOUGHTS?!?!?

ARGH!!!


btw... i have an 04.5 CVT non quattro

[HyperM3]

I went through this problem too. Installing mine incorrectly. You cant install it assuming the same position as the stock bpv. If you are lying under the car facing up, 'B' needs to be to the left and 'A' needs to be facing down. The vacuum nipple is straight up and the vent is facing forward of the car. Thats how mine is. It works perfectly now. Also, make sure your top spring tensioner isnt too tight or too loose. That will make it flutter too if its too tight. Do you have it chipped or stock? If its stock, you can have it set to a lighter tension but if its chipped you need it tighter to hold the boost better. After a while i started learning to tighten it from top of the car with the intake tube removed instead of going under the car every time. Good luck and if you need anymore info or pics, pm me.

[fongaroos]

are you sure?

the first time i installed it i had the vacuum tube facing up just like you said. the sound was FREAKIN AWESOME!!! i had the GFB loosened ALL THE WAY and then i tightened it by 2 full rotations.

the car felt REALLY SLUGGISH and it felt like maybe i was loosing boost.

afterwards... i tightened it ALL THE WAY and it DEFINITELY felt a lot better but it still felt like it was more sluggish than with the OEM DV on...

i have a GIAC chip and the boostedtech... thats about it as far as engine mods...

ARGH!!! im so upset...

[HyperM3]

I dont know, I dont feel sluggish at all really. I know that when I had it on wrong the first time and was hitting second gear hard, the car was bucking from the air being routed improperly. Felt so horrible. Then I changed it and wow, what a difference. Now I have to turn off traction control so it wont kick in on shifts. Seriously, if you want me to take pics though i will. The other things Ive done is exhaust and K&N filter. Not sure if they have anything to do with it but its all relating to air flow. I also have GIAC and no cel or problems.

[fongaroos]

ARGH! this is ridiculous...

maybe it was all in my head...

i think maybe ill try one last time. ill adjust it so that the tension is higher and then ill see what happens then...

do you think setting it at the HIGHEST TENSION would be too much?

[HyperM3]

Absolutely. Even with what I have, I have it 4 FULL turns from completely tight.

[fongaroos]

if its set TOO TIGHT then what would happen?

would it just NOT VENT when you get off the throttle?

[HyperM3]

If its too tight then it wont vent and you will get that flutter noise if anything. Otherwise it will prevent all the air from excaping the hose thats now blocked by the diaphram in the bov. This will over time, damage the hose from holding the pressure with no place to go. Plus damage the turbo if the air goes backward from the pressure. However, I dont think that any spring is tight enough to have that situation happen.

[fongaroos]

UGH! i put the stock airbox in and i am gonna try this ONE LAST TIME!!!

ARGH!!!

[bbaudi382]

nice pic eric.it HASTA be the 2nd way...no cel.

[fongaroos]

well steve was telling me that it doesnt really work if you have a CAI.

he said it has to do with the fact that the stock airbox provides some pressure in the turbo or something and that in turn affects the vac line...

im COMPLETELY BUTCHERING his explanation but basically he said get the stock airbox back in...

with the stock airbox and the OE dv... my car feels... i dunno
its really different

the CAI made the TURBO so much more audible... and it was SO MUCH MORE FUN to drive...

but DAYAM! the stock airbox has a lot more torque...

i put the stock airbox back in and i was FLYING down the streets...

i think imma try to get the GFB back in tomorrow and give it one last shot. if it really doesnt work im just gonna ditch BOTH the CAI and the GFB...

GIAC with stock airbox is good enough...just no cool sound...ARGH!

[bbaudi382]

why not try stock airbox with GFB?

[HyperM3]

Im using stock airbox w/K&N and I have no problems, good throttle response, decent turbo whine, no lag and WOOOOSHHH. I understand what steve was talking about and it makes sense that a vacuum is created in the stock airbox. Try stock box with bov. You will have no problems, no cel, more torgue and happiness.

[A4Tuuuurbo]

yo hyper we need to meet up so u can get my gfb workin good.. cause i'm throwing codes like crazy.. i'm pretty sure i have it set to 4 turns from tightend but i dunno.. i'd rather have u look at it.. i keep vaggin my car and its saying pressure drop between DV and turbo.. basically means i'm venting too much.. i dropped u a PM hit me up so we can meet up sometime this week..

[fongaroos]

wait...4 turns from the MOST LOOSE setting? or 4 turns from the MOST TIGHT setting?

[HyperM3]

4 turns FROM the most TIGHT setting with GIAC chip.

[A4Tuuuurbo]

ahh so what do u think i should do in the case of not being chipped? cause i'm pretty sure i'm at 4 turns and still throwing codes.. hit me up hyper..
i need to ask u some turbo questions too..

[fongaroos]

and are you ABSOLUTELY SURE that i need to install it the OPPOSITE orientation as the STOCK DV? ive installed this thing like 10 times. i installed it with the VAC LINE facing up and i threw codes and the car got REALLY SLUGGISH! HOWEVER... i did have that AWESOME SOUND!!!

when i installed it as the SAME ORIENTATION as the stock DV (with the VAC LINE facing the passenger side of the engine bay) the CEL went away by itself without even being VAGGED and the car felt alive again... but it just KEPT FLUTTERING... no WHOOOSH at all.

with both the installs i had the spring tension set at both ends of the spectrum. i had it ALL THE WAY TIGHTENED and i also had it ALL THE WAY LOOSENED.

im SO CONFUSED...

[JMG]

Get a BPV.

[fongaroos]

honestly... ive been thinknig about getting a forge again...

i sold my forge for this thing and now im kinda regretting it...

but the thing is... the sound is HONESTLY so freakin nice.

if i can figure out a way to make this thing work...i really do like the sound. and it makes the car more fun to drive too...

[HyperM3]

OK, I just went outside to take some pics. I dont have much light till tomorrow so just deal with these.





They were taken at the top of the engine bay with the front of the car to the left. With that information, you can make out the orientation of the bov.

Looking at your diagram again and then my pictures, I think the main reason Im not having problems is because I have the STEALTH hybrid. The extra adjustability helps me get the woosh, not get cel's, and not loose any power. That might explain a lot here.

[JMG]

Originally posted by fongaroos
honestly... ive been thinknig about getting a forge again...

i sold my forge for this thing and now im kinda regretting it...

but the thing is... the sound is HONESTLY so freakin nice.

if i can figure out a way to make this thing work...i really do like the sound. and it makes the car more fun to drive too...

Going back to the Forge would be a move in the right direction if you are truely concerned about running rich and dealing with the complications of making something that doesn't really work for our cars work.

Some people feel the sound is worth post ignition in the cat. I would run a recirculating kit instaed of venting to the atmosphere. Think about it:

If the BOV is venting too much air you get a CEL and major problems. When you adjust it to vent less air you are just decreasing your problem so that the ecu things everythign is fine instead of solving your problem completely.

the CAI made the TURBO so much more audible... and it was SO MUCH MORE FUN to drive...

but DAYAM! the stock airbox has a lot more torque...

i put the stock airbox back in and i was FLYING down the streets...

That's because the CAI doesn't really work. Your are pulling in hot air from the engine bay due to inferior heat shielding. Again some people liek to believe that CAIs work, because we all would like to get a return for our money. But they don't. Do some reasearch and you will find out that peope who have actually run the numbers on CAIs have returned or sold them. Unfortunately, those that leave them in experience percieved gains due to the sound and the expectations or have done EXTENSIVE custom heat shielding and air routing.

[fongaroos]

concerning the GFB... i think im pretty sold on the fact that our cars are designed with full recirculation in mind...

i dont doubt that at all..


as for the CAI... i kinda disagree with you on that.

the setup that i had was pretty modified. i made a heatshield out of aluminum that pretty much separated the engine bay. the heat from the turbo was pretty effectively deflected away from the intake. the way i could tell is that after a hard run i could pop my hood and even though the turbo was CRAZY HOT... the area around the intake was perfectly cool. the heatshield was very effective. the CAI DEFINITELY drew more cold air. i had aluminum mandrel bent piping all the way down to the area behind the passengers side fog light. the cone filter was sitting right behind the fog light grille and it was definitely drawing the coolest air possible. HOWEVER, i believe that you lose some torque because the stock airbox provides some kind of pressure system or restriction. for some reason the turbo runs better when it has that restriction. with the CAI on it seemed like i lost some low end torque but the upper end seemed to be a lot more free.

this is PURELY SPECULATION and based on how things FEEL...

[JMG]

Originally posted by fongaroos
concerning the GFB... i think im pretty sold on the fact that our cars are designed with full recirculation in mind...

i dont doubt that at all..


as for the CAI... i kinda disagree with you on that.

the setup that i had was pretty modified. i made a heatshield out of aluminum that pretty much separated the engine bay. the heat from the turbo was pretty effectively deflected away from the intake. the way i could tell is that after a hard run i could pop my hood and even though the turbo was CRAZY HOT... the area around the intake was perfectly cool. the heatshield was very effective. the CAI DEFINITELY drew more cold air. i had aluminum mandrel bent piping all the way down to the area behind the passengers side fog light. the cone filter was sitting right behind the fog light grille and it was definitely drawing the coolest air possible. HOWEVER, i believe that you lose some torque because the stock airbox provides some kind of pressure system or restriction. for some reason the turbo runs better when it has that restriction. with the CAI on it seemed like i lost some low end torque but the upper end seemed to be a lot more free.

this is PURELY SPECULATION and based on how things FEEL...

Well, like I said you need to do a lot of custom heat shielding and air routing to actaully accomplish anything with so called CAIs. Looks like you did. Got any pics?

[JMG]

Its funny how a "Go Fast Bits" part is doing everythign but making you "Go Fast".

[fongaroos]

not right now... i did... but i took it all down and i have the stock air box right now...

[bbaudi382]

i copied eric.

[Saturnine]

Thats gonna suck if you hit a big puddle

[bbaudi382]

well...as for performance aspects...i have some thoughts.

first of all, the psi goes DOWN with this cai. eric is definately correct. theres something about a restrictive box that allows the turbo to push harder. did some vag logs with drew and i peaked at .9 bar and held .8 bar with the giac chip.

this chip is supposed to go to 1.2. however, the cai feels MUCH better than the stock box. i dont think i lost much torque on the low end but higher rpms breathe so much better, especially at higher speeds. my car feels like it just breathes better on the highway. if anything, throttle response definately improves and the turbo is much more audible. makes the car more fun to drive =)

[JMG]

Well the whole deal with the 1.8t is that its a small engine. How much air do you need? The stock airbox feed the engine sufficent cool air. You lose bottom end but gain top end? I'd be interested to see the real numbers on this to see if gain on the top outweighs the gain on the end.

[hyperspeed]

yeah.. intakes are supposed to provide low end rpm gains.. top end gain is usually from exhaust breathing..

i have the same setup...and my notes showed increase throttle response as well as low end rpm response.

[bbaudi382]

maybe ijust dont know what im talkin about

[fongaroos]

check out what GFB has been sayin...

-----------------------------
email 1:
"Hi Eric,
That is an unusual problem. The reverse orientation is correct, as you
have
noticed in the OEM position it does not blow off. Are you losing boost
pressure when accelerating? Have you tried plugging off the trumpet
with the
black screw-in plug supplied? Have you tried adjusting the spring
pre-load?

If the answer to either of these questions is no, I would suggest
trying
them both. Tighten the vacuum nipple on the top until it stops, see if
that
fixes it. Let me know how it goes."

-----------------------------
email 2:
"Hi Eric,
By adjusting the spring pre-load I meant tightening the adjustment. If the
valve is too tight, you'll hear significant fluttering, like when it is
installed the OEM way. You may still hear a little at low RPM, but that is
not uncommon. The adjustment is not there to compensate for different boost,
it is there to accommodate different car characteristics. If yours runs
better with it tight, then that's the way to do it.

I'm not sure if the CVT places any other demands on the diverter that are
not found in auto/manual models, but there is one other thing to try if the
spring adjustment does not cure the problem. The vacuum hose that goes to
the top of the valve, is usually connected to a complex solenoid/reservoir
set-up, which the ECU controls. The ECU therefore has the power to open the
diverter under load, which is not what you want. SEAT owners in Europe
sometimes find this occurring, and the best fix is to block the factory
vacuum hose where it would connect to the diverter, then run a single vacuum
hose from the manifold to the Hybrid. This will prevent any chance of ECU
intervention, and keep the boost where it is supposed to be."

what you guys think?

[bbaudi382]

try it?

[wsdfOO]

Originally posted by bbaudi382
try it?

let's not and say we did.

have you tried installing opposite of the Dv with the adjustment at it's tightest?

[fongaroos]

im gonna try installing it REVERSED OF OEM with the spring tension at the highest... see what happens.

we did it once... but i remember there still being some loss of performance... and the CEL was still there.


the CEL only went away when i turned it to the REGULAR OEM ORIENTATION... (vac line pointed towards passengers side)

[bhvrdr]

Originally posted by JMG
Get a BPV.

I agree here. I dont think the benefits of a cool sound outweigh the negatives of a poorly tuned automobile. cheers! mike

[fongaroos]

Originally posted by bhvrdr
I agree here. I dont think the benefits of a cool sound outweigh the negatives of a poorly tuned automobile. cheers! mike

yah i know...

im trying to work it out so that i can tune it RIGHT! but ultimately if i cant get it to work right... then im just gonna end up selling the valve and getting a forge again...

but like i said... if i can get it to work thatll be great cuz the sound is just so irresistable...

[fongaroos]

Originally posted by fongaroos
I'm not sure if the CVT places any other demands on the diverter that are
not found in auto/manual models, but there is one other thing to try if the
spring adjustment does not cure the problem. The vacuum hose that goes to
the top of the valve, is usually connected to a complex solenoid/reservoir
set-up, which the ECU controls. The ECU therefore has the power to open the
diverter under load, which is not what you want. SEAT owners in Europe
sometimes find this occurring, and the best fix is to block the factory
vacuum hose where it would connect to the diverter, then run a single vacuum
hose from the manifold to the Hybrid. This will prevent any chance of ECU
intervention, and keep the boost where it is supposed to be."

anyone know anything about this? is it true that the ECU controls the vac line? i always thought that the DV was activated by a purely physical mechanism... not an electrical solenoid...

to my understanding... when you let off the throttle the pressure in the intake manifold drops and this in turn creates vacuum in the DV and affects the DV in 2 ways. 1) it allows the charged air to PUSH the piston up and thus vent to atmosphere or get rerouted into the intake tract, and also 2) the vacuum pressure in the vac line actually SUCKS or PULLS the piston up to release the pressure...

is this correct?

[bbaudi382]

Originally posted by bhvrdr
I agree here. I dont think the benefits of a cool sound outweigh the negatives of a poorly tuned automobile. cheers! mike

for what its worth, i think the benefits of a cool sound outweigh the negatives of a poorly tuned automobile.