250 Horsepower GIAC XR A4 -----

[J. Moss]

Hi All,

Many here seem very hostile about the 250 chp claim that I made in February to some AZ folks that I met at an event. To the point of some calling me a liar, a fool or just plain a scam. Having been in this business as long as I have my feeling is one of distaste for how this has been dealt with.

Let me clarify some things.

GIAC was able to get 250 ft/Lbs close to 240-250 chp for one run on a Beta RACE GAS program. The car was only able to make this number once due to a slipping clutch and further tuning was impossible.

GIAC will be working further on the race gas program in the very near future and will strongly suggest a stronger clutch with this upgrade.

It is not in my, nor GIAC's nature to claim a number unless it has been achieved repeatably. The comment was in passing to some AZ members and the football was run with at that point. I should have said this sooner, as it seems that many have used this “Claim” to discredit me and GIAC for whatever reasons.

When the file is done the results will be posted for all to see. The work is already beginning and when we have a repeatable solid file everyone will see the results.

All “Crank” numbers are just estimates that need to be taken with a grain of salt from anyone! Even the omnipotent Maha numbers as far as I am concerned.

THE MOST IMPORTANT MEASUREMENT IS HOW MUCH HAS BEEN GAINED FROM BASELINE.

I would appreciate an email or a phone call if you have anything negative to say about me. IMO that is the proper way to deal with a “problem.”
I have been in many contest/competitions/shootouts.... And will not be dragged into anything without a solid conversation first. If you want to see some of the published items I have been involved in and a timeline check out my web-site at Torque-Factory, Inc. .

I will gladly respond to any questions that I can answer. If things start to get ugly I will untrack the thread you guys can just fight without me.

Jeff Moss

[EVIL-AUDI]

Let me start off by saying thank you for your post.

Also we are tired of seeing name calling and personal attacks on eachother. This is a forum. Stick to the facts and keep it clean.

[J. Moss]

Originally posted by EVIL-AUDI
Let me start off by saying thank you for your post.

Also we are tired of seeing name calling and personal attacks on eachother. This is a forum. Stick to the facts and keep it clean.

You are very welcome fellow evil one.

The personal attacks got old long ago. Let's keep it clean and I will gladly participate.

Jeff

[Jeff]

Originally posted by EVIL-AUDI
Let me start off by saying thank you for your post.

Also we are tired of seeing name calling and personal attacks on eachother. This is a forum. Stick to the facts and keep it clean.

Exactly my point... i've always stuck with FACTS and not "shit out of my ass", but some people like to take it to a WHOLE other level.

But anyways, this "J. Moss" guy can SUCK IT! Oh yea... sorry..didnt know it was YOU Jeff Moss.

-Jeff

[1sicknickel]

This is gonna start to get ugly

[Villains]

Originally posted by J. Moss
You are very welcome fellow evil one.

The personal attacks got old long ago. Let's keep it clean and I will gladly participate.

Jeff

Jeff,

Once the file is complete and is satisfactory with GIAC, would you be willing to have it dyno'd on the MAHA with a few AZ'ers on site? We would all like to see what the file can do and we all hope that is does make 240 CHP. None of us want the products that are available for our cars to perform poorly. We all want the best for our cars. I have worked with you in the past and have referred people to you; so I ask this out of curiosity and to quiet down all of the claims from both sides and just have hard numbers and facts. I dislike all the hearsay and naysayers as much as you do.

Thanks,
Derrick

[BrokenXenon]

i am just happy with my GIAC 1.2BAR :P
and it's very very very reliable

[EVIL-AUDI]

Originally posted by nickel 1.8
This is gonna start to get ugly

Not if I can help it.

[fongaroos]

Originally posted by BrokenXenon
i am just happy with my GIAC 1.2BAR :P
and it's very very very reliable

is that just the standard GIAC chip?

if 1.2 bar is the standard chip... then what is the "S" or "X" chip running at?

i already feel like the standard chip/programming is already REALLY AGGRESSIVE and i try not to push my car too hard cuz i feel like im gonna break something...

the "S" and "X" must be pushing REALLY REALLY HARD on the engine...

[hyperspeed]

more on the turbo.. when did u get chipped eric?

[gotsportec]

y cant we all just get along???

[DLSJ5]

Originally posted by J. Moss
Hi All,

Many here seem very hostile about the 250 chp claim that I made in February to some AZ folks that I met at an event. To the point of some calling me a liar, a fool or just plain a scam. Having been in this business as long as I have my feeling is one of distaste for how this has been dealt with.

Let me clarify some things.

GIAC was able to get 250 ft/Lbs close to 240-250 chp for one run on a Beta RACE GAS program. The car was only able to make this number once due to a slipping clutch and further tuning was impossible.

GIAC will be working further on the race gas program in the very near future and will strongly suggest a stronger clutch with this upgrade.

It is not in my, nor GIAC's nature to claim a number unless it has been achieved repeatably. The comment was in passing to some AZ members and the football was run with at that point. I should have said this sooner, as it seems that many have used this “Claim” to discredit me and GIAC for whatever reasons.

When the file is done the results will be posted for all to see. The work is already beginning and when we have a repeatable solid file everyone will see the results.

All “Crank” numbers are just estimates that need to be taken with a grain of salt from anyone! Even the omnipotent Maha numbers as far as I am concerned.

THE MOST IMPORTANT MEASUREMENT IS HOW MUCH HAS BEEN GAINED FROM BASELINE.

I would appreciate an email or a phone call if you have anything negative to say about me. IMO that is the proper way to deal with a “problem.”
I have been in many contest/competitions/shootouts.... And will not be dragged into anything without a solid conversation first. If you want to see some of the published items I have been involved in and a timeline check out my web-site at Torque-Factory, Inc. .

I will gladly respond to any questions that I can answer. If things start to get ugly I will untrack the thread you guys can just fight without me.

Jeff Moss

Jeff,

It is I who said the 250CHP X chip was a flat out lie, if my language was too strong than I apologize. At the time I felt that kind of claim deserved an appropriate response. All this bashing and harsh language is not the way we should approach this, cooler heads will prevail. However, it's just crazy, to think a K03 can achieve what a stock 2.7t B5 S4 does off the lot with just a chip and 100octane. If you can hit that somehow than awesome and I hope you can, we all want power. If you do I will take back my statement. You initially claimed 250CHP and 280lbs. of TQ on audiworld BTW, unless I read the post wrong, (link below) Still w/stock injectors, no FMIC, Exhaust? How in the hell can you get 250CHP? Maybe you can on GIAC's dyno, but we'll have to see an indy dyno chart to be sure, good luck with the chip.



http://forums.audiworld.com/a4gen2/msgs/584836.phtml

[David@EuroCode]

Originally posted by hyperspeed
more on the turbo.. when did u get chipped eric?

You want to dyno you car right? Well here is your opportunity we will pay for the dyno session just shoot me an e-mail or give us a call.

We can also hook you up with a deal on a test pipe if you want then you would be able to do before and after runs.


Cheers,

David Sarabi

[Jeff]

Originally posted by EVIL-AUDI
Not if I can help it.

Ok... time to post some shit before EVIL shuts this thread down. j/p

-Jeff

[foofighter]

anything that's got GIAC/Revo/Eurocode will be watched very carefully by staff so as to avoid any further issues like we had last week.

[fongaroos]

Originally posted by hyperspeed
more on the turbo.. when did u get chipped eric?

i got chipped last week...

i wanna dyno MY CAR!!!

i wanna see if that CAI actually does anything...

[fongaroos]

Originally posted by foofighter
anything that's got GIAC/Revo/Eurocode will be watched very carefully by staff so as to avoid any further issues like we had last week.

ummm... sorry im a bit out of the loop...but what happened last week?

[Jeff]

Originally posted by fongaroos
is that just the standard GIAC chip?

if 1.2 bar is the standard chip... then what is the "S" or "X" chip running at?

i already feel like the standard chip/programming is already REALLY AGGRESSIVE and i try not to push my car too hard cuz i feel like im gonna break something...

the "S" and "X" must be pushing REALLY REALLY HARD on the engine...

The "S" is the Standard chip, which you most likely have. The "S" chip is the 1.1-1.2 bar chip, while the "X" is the more aggressive 1.3-1.4 bar chip. According to Garrett, the "X" will make close to the same power numbers, but the torque is lot more aggressive and the turbos come on a lot sooner. However, a lot of people have problems with pinging here in CA w/ the 91octane MTBE gas--for the programs are made mainly on 93 octane they get out in the East Coast.

You should be ok with the "S" on 91 octane, and dont worry about pushing it too hard.

-Jeff

[EVIL-AUDI]

Originally posted by Jeff
Ok... time to post some shit before EVIL shuts this thread down. j/p

-Jeff

Try me.

[fongaroos]

Originally posted by Jeff
The "S" is the Standard chip, which you most likely have. The "S" chip is the 1.1-1.2 bar chip, while the "X" is the more aggressive 1.3-1.4 bar chip. According to Garrett, the "X" will make close to the same power numbers, but the torque is lot more aggressive and the turbos come on a lot sooner. However, a lot of people have problems with pinging here in CA w/ the 91octane MTBE gas--for the programs are made mainly on 93 octane they get out in the East Coast.

You should be ok with the "S" on 91 octane, and dont worry about pushing it too hard.

-Jeff

thanx thats helpful!

[HICK]

what happened last week? Flash back to high school!! It was not too bad at first, but turned south quickly. I think it must have been a shitty week for some last week. Who knows. We all have one thing in common, the drive to enjoy our cars to the fullest, so I think the flash´back is over for now.

[Mark]

was the 250/250 run done with stock injectors?

[fongaroos]

Originally posted by HICK
what happened last week? Flash back to high school!! It was not too bad at first, but turned south quickly. I think it must have been a shitty week for some last week. Who knows. We all have one thing in common, the drive to enjoy our cars to the fullest, so I think the flash´back is over for now.

ohh...you're talkin about the thread from last week...

nevermind... i thought you guys were talkin bout something else...

that was actually my thread...

[David@EuroCode]

Thanks for clarifying the 250CHP stock B6 A4 claim by GIAC Jeff so is it possible or not?

Also I wish you would have said this

"GIAC was able to get 250 ft/Lbs close to 240-250 chp for one run on a Beta RACE GAS program. The car was only able to make this number once due to a slipping clutch and further tuning was impossible."

Before you said this on AW.

"Was just speaking to Garrett today and they have an X program and an XR program. The X makes a good amount more torque and the XR makes about 250 hp and 280 crank on stock injectors. There is some reluctance to release due to some concerns about the stock clutch. Keep in touch and I will continue to ask."

You mention in this AZ post that the clutch was slipping when it made 240-250CHP and 250-280 ft/lb's torque (I quoted both numbers as AW & AZ claims aren’t the same) so is it fair to assume that there is room for growth with your XR program due to a slipping clutch?

You see you made these claims on your own and when you make claims people expect you to deliver if you don’t you will loose their trust and faith. To create hype to sell your product is great only if you can deliver with at least one car that can reproduce those numbers with the claimed bolt on which in this case was none stock everything. However if you cant you are going to pay for it greatly.

You also must keep in mind that everyone respects you because of your previous knowledge and experience but all the background and even magazine publications in the world won’t gain you respect if you have already lost it buy making claims that are not achievable. If these claims are achievable I will come here on AW and personally eat all my words I would like to see this car with my two eyes of course on an independent dyno naturally.

Cheers,

David Sarabi

[David@EuroCode]

Originally posted by foofighter
anything that's got GIAC/Revo/Eurocode will be watched very carefully by staff so as to avoid any further issues like we had last week.

With all do respect to AZ please do not drag EuroCode into this we never said anything here on AZ to offend anyone. Additionally the name Revo was mentioned but that is simply one of many vendors that we do business with. If one of our customers chooses to use the name EuroCode to voice their opinion that is their right but buy no means is this an indication of us getting involved in some ugly argument with any one or tuner here on AZ.

[zemun2]

Jeff,
What do you say when will we see the X-XR chip on a dyno?
Honestly these 250/280 numbers just dont seem realistic to me, that's 80 CHP over stock just on the chip and 100 octane gas.

I'm willing to chip in $20 and hopefully few more AZ-ers will too in order to share the cost of dyno runs.

Dejan

[neoprufrok]

I'd like to see this dyno. I'm just curious again how Dr. Lim can get by the fuel issue. The b6's don't supply enough fuel based on most calculations to get above even 195hp wihtout retarding timing. I notice how most of hte german tuners don't even go above 195 either.

[foofighter]

with all due respect to you sir...i understand that your company hasn't done anything to offend the memebers...it just so happens that when chip tuning is brought up it always seems to get heated so staff is advised to watch for threads containing such talks as more than likely it'll turn into a mudslinging session. That is all, I did not imply that your company was involved.

[J. Moss]

Originally posted by Villains
Jeff,

Once the file is complete and is satisfactory with GIAC, would you be willing to have it dyno'd on the MAHA with a few AZ'ers on site? We would all like to see what the file can do and we all hope that is does make 240 CHP. None of us want the products that are available for our cars to perform poorly. We all want the best for our cars. I have worked with you in the past and have referred people to you; so I ask this out of curiosity and to quiet down all of the claims from both sides and just have hard numbers and facts. I dislike all the hearsay and naysayers as much as you do.

Thanks,
Derrick

That sounds like fun if eveyone can keep it friendly I will gladly participate.

Since you are inviting me I have a request. I do not like the Maha and here are the reasons why:

1. Fans. Although they are supersonic they do not adequately emulate the road speeds that the Maha simulates. This is compounded by #2

2. Length of time on the dyno. Last cars we put on the Maha ran for an excess of 40 seconds. Every other dyno I have used has not exceeded 15 seconds. I measured the IAT's and they were double what was seen at another dyno. This can cause multiple problems and the one besides possible engine damage that needs to be considered is that when IAT's get that high the ecu starts to run everything very very rich. If you have a program that is tuned for those very unusual conditions it has a big leg up on one that is tuned to more realistic IAT's.

With all that geekinese out of the way. No Maha. Must have good fans. LMK when and where and we will see how it goes.

Got to go. Have a chip job coming in. Will come back later a look at this thread and reply.

Adios.

Moss

[J. Moss]

Originally posted by fongaroos
is that just the standard GIAC chip?

if 1.2 bar is the standard chip... then what is the "S" or "X" chip running at?

i already feel like the standard chip/programming is already REALLY AGGRESSIVE and i try not to push my car too hard cuz i feel like im gonna break something...

the "S" and "X" must be pushing REALLY REALLY HARD on the engine...

How's it going Fongaroos?

I have installed hundreds of 1.8t chips myself. There is a very very very small failure rate on the 1.8t.

Give me a ring if you have any questions or concerns.

Jeff

[Silence]

Jeff,
May I ask a question? Now I know what happened to Ari's car on the Maha, and that is was tuned previously the night before on the GIAC dyno, yet why does it seem you are the only tuner to dislike the Maha? You seem to be the only one that is outspoken against it. The way I look at it is, if your car cannot sustain 40 seconds on a dyno, it should never be on the street. No other cars I know of had problems on the dyno that day other than Ari's.

The reason for the Maha challenge is there have been a few b6 a4's that have run on it. It would be great to use as a base, being there has been a fwd, quattro, and an e-05 file tested. The cars were an 02,03,and an 04, so all bases have been covered. David as well dynoed his gt28rs and 71r on that dyno. Personally, I feel this would be the best comparison, and David is paying, so it can't get any better than that.

[J. Moss]

Originally posted by DLSJ5
Jeff,

It is I who said the 250CHP X chip was a flat out lie, if my language was too strong than I apologize. At the time I felt that kind of claim deserved an appropriate response. All this bashing and harsh language is not the way we should approach this, cooler heads will prevail. However, it's just crazy, to think a K03 can achieve what a stock 2.7t B5 S4 does off the lot with just a chip and 100octane. If you can hit that somehow than awesome and I hope you can, we all want power. If you do I will take back my statement. You initially claimed 250CHP and 280lbs. of TQ on audiworld BTW, unless I read the post wrong, (link below) Still w/stock injectors, no FMIC, Exhaust? How in the hell can you get 250CHP? Maybe you can on GIAC's dyno, but we'll have to see an indy dyno chart to be sure, good luck with the chip.



http://forums.audiworld.com/a4gen2/msgs/584836.phtml

My quote is -

"Was just speaking to Garrett today and they have an X program and an XR program. The X makes a good amount more torque and the XR makes about 250 hp and 280 crank on stock injectors. There is some reluctance to release due to some concerns about the stock clutch. Keep in touch and I will continue to ask. "

That is what I was told. And in all honesty not out of the ball-park from the testing the other night. Time will tell how close we can come repeatably once we have a good amount of time into it.

I agree that it seems crazy. Octane makes a big difference. We will all see how it turns out.

[J. Moss]

Originally posted by Mark
was the 250/250 run done with stock injectors?

Yes. What many do not understand is that with higher octane you can run a little bit leaner and get more mileage out of an injector.

[J. Moss]

Originally posted by David@EuroCode
Thanks for clarifying the 250CHP stock B6 A4 claim by GIAC Jeff so is it possible or not?

Also I wish you would have said this

"GIAC was able to get 250 ft/Lbs close to 240-250 chp for one run on a Beta RACE GAS program. The car was only able to make this number once due to a slipping clutch and further tuning was impossible."

Before you said this on AW.

"Was just speaking to Garrett today and they have an X program and an XR program. The X makes a good amount more torque and the XR makes about 250 hp and 280 crank on stock injectors. There is some reluctance to release due to some concerns about the stock clutch. Keep in touch and I will continue to ask."

You mention in this AZ post that the clutch was slipping when it made 240-250CHP and 250-280 ft/lb's torque (I quoted both numbers as AW & AZ claims aren’t the same) so is it fair to assume that there is room for growth with your XR program due to a slipping clutch?

You see you made these claims on your own and when you make claims people expect you to deliver if you don’t you will loose their trust and faith. To create hype to sell your product is great only if you can deliver with at least one car that can reproduce those numbers with the claimed bolt on which in this case was none stock everything. However if you cant you are going to pay for it greatly.

You also must keep in mind that everyone respects you because of your previous knowledge and experience but all the background and even magazine publications in the world won’t gain you respect if you have already lost it buy making claims that are not achievable. If these claims are achievable I will come here on AW and personally eat all my words I would like to see this car with my two eyes of course on an independent dyno naturally.

Cheers,

David Sarabi

My credibility, peoples faith, my own claims, more than 250, making claims that are not achievable....

You seem to be trying to rile this up.

Here is how I started THIS post-

Many here seem very hostile about the 250 chp claim that I made in February to some AZ folks that I met at an event. To the point of some calling me a liar, a fool or just plain a scam. Having been in this business as long as I have my feeling is one of distaste for how this has been dealt with.

Let me clarify some things.

GIAC was able to get 250 ft/Lbs close to 240-250 chp for one run on a Beta RACE GAS program. The car was only able to make this number once due to a slipping clutch and further tuning was impossible.

GIAC will be working further on the race gas program in the very near future and will strongly suggest a stronger clutch with this upgrade.

It is not in my, nor GIAC's nature to claim a number unless it has been achieved repeatably. The comment was in passing to some AZ members and the football was run with at that point. I should have said this sooner, as it seems that many have used this “Claim” to discredit me and GIAC for whatever reasons.

When the file is done the results will be posted for all to see. The work is already beginning and when we have a repeatable solid file everyone will see the results.

All “Crank” numbers are just estimates that need to be taken with a grain of salt from anyone! Even the omnipotent Maha numbers as far as I am concerned.

THE MOST IMPORTANT MEASUREMENT IS HOW MUCH HAS BEEN GAINED FROM BASELINE.

I would appreciate an email or a phone call if you have anything negative to say about me. IMO that is the proper way to deal with a “problem.”
I have been in many contest/competitions/shootouts.... And will not be dragged into anything without a solid conversation first. If you want to see some of the published items I have been involved in and a timeline check out my web-site at Torque-Factory, Inc. .

I will gladly respond to any questions that I can answer. If things start to get ugly I will untrack the thread you guys can just fight without me.

Like I said. We will see how close we can come to the claims. If you choose to think that I am a liar fine.

Time will tell.

Jeff

[J. Moss]

Originally posted by zemun2
Jeff,
What do you say when will we see the X-XR chip on a dyno?
Honestly these 250/280 numbers just dont seem realistic to me, that's 80 CHP over stock just on the chip and 100 octane gas.

I'm willing to chip in $20 and hopefully few more AZ-ers will too in order to share the cost of dyno runs.

Dejan

The base file has already started being worked on. Garrett is on vacation for the next week and after that Waterfest.

Give the guy a little time. We have a good test car and a willing programmer.

Whatever happens I will release the dyno.

Jeff

[J. Moss]

Originally posted by neoprufrok
I'd like to see this dyno. I'm just curious again how Dr. Lim can get by the fuel issue. The b6's don't supply enough fuel based on most calculations to get above even 195hp wihtout retarding timing. I notice how most of hte german tuners don't even go above 195 either.

A calculation is an educated guess.

Based on calculated BSFC, VE and many software limits.

A race gase program is able to run much more timing due to the high octane fuel and gets further on the same injectors.

Neo, I am not here to argue with anyone. Let's see what happens in the end. If GIAC can come close to the 250 mark, cool. Some may even owe me an apologee.

And if they cannot come close I was wrong and I suck.

Let's all have a soda and see what happens.

[J. Moss]

Originally posted by Silence
Jeff,
May I ask a question? Now I know what happened to Ari's car on the Maha, and that is was tuned previously the night before on the GIAC dyno, yet why does it seem you are the only tuner to dislike the Maha? You seem to be the only one that is outspoken against it. The way I look at it is, if your car cannot sustain 40 seconds on a dyno, it should never be on the street. No other cars I know of had problems on the dyno that day other than Ari's.

The reason for the Maha challenge is there have been a few b6 a4's that have run on it. It would be great to use as a base, being there has been a fwd, quattro, and an e-05 file tested. The cars were an 02,03,and an 04, so all bases have been covered. David as well dynoed his gt28rs and 71r on that dyno. Personally, I feel this would be the best comparison, and David is paying, so it can't get any better than that.

Sure. You don't know what happened to Ari's car. If you want some of that info call me.

No other dyno runs for that long. How fast are you going in 40 seconds? Over 115 mph? How fast are the Maha fans blowing air over your radiator?

I have seen the difference in IAT's. Am not making that up.

There should be no problem with another dyno if we have another baseline car. Besides, someone else called me out. I should have some say in where we go.

[Silence]

I spoke to Ari at length about it. I'm pretty sure I know what happened.

[David@EuroCode]

Hello Jeff,

You mention in this AZ post that the clutch was slipping when it made 240-250CHP and 250-280 ft/lb's torque (I quoted both numbers as AW & AZ claims aren’t the same) so is it fair to assume that there is room for growth even beyond these numbers with your XR program due to a slipping clutch??????????

Avoiding my question I assume.

1St claim on AW
"The X makes a good amount more torque and the XR makes about 250 hp and 280 crank on stock injectors."

Notice 250CHP & 280 ft/lb Claim on AW

2nd claim on AZ
"GIAC was able to get 250 ft/Lbs close to 240-250 chp for one run on a Beta RACE GAS program."

Notice 240-250CHP & 250 ft/lb claim on AZ


I'm not calling you a liar so don’t put words in my mouth Jeff your stories just don't match and I'm just pointing them out.

"Time will tell."
It seems that it will your last claim of 250CHP & 280ft/lb's was made on 2004-04-22 19:58:06 nearly 3 months ago how many more months do you need? You mentioned that you had already achieved those number and were reluctant to release it just need a better clutch. I will provide and install a clutch on a stock car for free if you can show me a stock car with your GIAC file that produces 250CHP & 280ft/lb's on Race gas if not you will pay for the clutch and install you seem so confident so what do you say?

04-22
"the XR makes about 250 hp and 280 crank on stock injectors. There is some reluctance to release due to some concerns about the stock clutch."

In the above statement on 04-22 you claim the file is done but and that you are reluctant to release it due to clutch issues. On 07-01 below you say that when the file is done that you will posted the results for everyone to see. So is it done or not and why the conflicting statements? Also whose dyno are these results going to come from?

07-01
"When the file is done the results will be posted for all to see. The work is already beginning and when we have a repeatable solid file everyone will see the results."

[neoprufrok]

Originally posted by J. Moss
A calculation is an educated guess.

Based on calculated BSFC, VE and many software limits.

A race gase program is able to run much more timing due to the high octane fuel and gets further on the same injectors.

Neo, I am not here to argue with anyone. Let's see what happens in the end. If GIAC can come close to the 250 mark, cool. Some may even owe me an apologee.

And if they cannot come close I was wrong and I suck.

Let's all have a soda and see what happens.

That is true about the octane. My bad. Didn't see that you guy swere running race gas!