B7 Multi-Function Steering Wheel into 2002 Audi 24...

[alexza4]

Excellent. Exactly what i needed to know.
Thank you Santos and +rep to you.

[md5mike]

Is it possible to reuse the airbag harness that's on the car now when doing this?
TIA

[CyberPMG]

Is it possible to reuse the airbag harness that's on the car now when doing this?
TIA

Thanks for bringing a year old post back to life.

Please do a search. There's been plenty of threads about this.

Until it has been proven that the airbag from a stage 2 steering wheel will work on a stage 1 system, I will not sacrifice safety just to have something that looks better. So far, I'm aware of a few accidents where the airbag did not deploy during an accident when it should have. There will be speculation on how it was put together, but I have yet to see consistent reports of a stage 2 airbag working properly in our cars.

[AvanTTix]

... So far, I'm aware of a few accidents where the airbag did not deploy during an accident when it should have. ...

Let me correct you here. What you meant to say is:

... So far, I'm aware of a few accidents where the airbag did not deploy during an accident when I think it should have. ...

And for the sole purpose of total disclosure, would it be fair to say your experience and knowledge regarding the circumstances in which an airbag should deploy or not is not based on a professional and scientific opinion of how airbags should operate? Kind of just like I and most other people on Audizine, i.e. it's all speculation on both parts?

[CyberPMG]

Steph, it's always speculation until somebody forks over the cash and does some legitimate scientific tests. Unfortunately, I don't think this will ever happen considering the B6 and B7 models are now discontinued. Never said my opinions were scientific or professional. They are simply that.... an opinion, one for the reader to determine if they agree or not.

I really do love the design and functionality of the B7 steering wheels. I also appreciate the work others have done to retrofit them into the B6 cars. I only wish there was substantial information to know that the stage 2 airbag can deploy properly when connected to a stage 1 system.

[AvanTTix]

Fair enough... ...

For the record, during the recall of the 2-stage A6 airbags 3-4 years, Audi instructed its mechanics to blow off the airbags to avoid discarding them while there was still a possibility one might accidentally fired-up. My mechanic, who used to be a Master Tech, was blowing up these 2-stage airbags by wiring them up as 1-stage airbags. So it's known that a 2-stage can be wired as a 1-stage and inflates when triggered. However let's be clear here, this still does NOT prove anything as to what would happen in real life situation.

There has been cases of accidents involving a vehicle in which a 2-stage airbags was installed and wired up as a 1-stage airbag. In some of these accidents, mine included, the SW airbag didn't deploy while the passenger side airbag did. As far as I'm concerned and I've said it before, I don't believe my SW airbag malfunctioned and I'm actually glad it didn't deploy. There has been one accident in which the 2-stage airbag deployed.

I also find it interesting that there has recently been report (i.e. a thread) about an accident involving a vehicle w/ a 1-stage airbag in which the SW airbag didn't deploy while the passenger side airbag did, which is consistent w/ what happened in mine.

Again, and as you said, until someone forks over the money to perform rigorous testing around this particular mod, all of this should be carefully considered when doing this particular mod.

Note to self: create a dedicated thread about this... ...

[halik]

Fair enough... ...

For the record, during the recall of the 2-stage A6 airbags 3-4 years, Audi instructed its mechanics to blow off the airbags to avoid discarding them while there was still a possibility one might accidentally fired-up. My mechanic, who used to be a Master Tech, was blowing up these 2-stage airbags by wiring them up as 1-stage airbags. So it's known that a 2-stage can be wired as a 1-stage and inflates when triggered. However let's be clear here, this still does NOT prove anything as to what would happen in real life situation.

There has been cases of accidents involving a vehicle in which a 2-stage airbags was installed and wired up as a 1-stage airbag. In some of these accidents, mine included, the SW airbag didn't deploy while the passenger side airbag did. As far as I'm concerned and I've said it before, I don't believe my SW airbag malfunctioned and I'm actually glad it didn't deploy. There has been one accident in which the 2-stage airbag deployed.

I also find it interesting that there has recently been report (i.e. a thread) about an accident involving a vehicle w/ a 1-stage airbag in which the SW airbag didn't deploy while the passenger side airbag did, which is consistent w/ what happened in mine.

Again, and as you said, until someone forks over the money to perform rigorous testing around this particular mod, all of this should be carefully considered when doing this particular mod.

Note to self: create a dedicated thread about this... ...

There's a guy here with a B6 cab that had the B7 steering wheel pop in his accident, thought it would be nice to get more data.

It is a fact that the seatbelt restraints, steering wheel or pass side airbags can fire independently of one another, so having the passenger airbag go, but not the driver's is entirely feasible.

My brother does R&D on the seatbelt things for an automotive supplier, confirmed the above.

[dmaxben]

Im almost positive that there are no circumstances under which the SDM (I dont know what audi calls their airbag module, GM calls it a Sensory Diagnostic Module) will intentionally fire the passenger side bag but not fire the driver side bag.

If the passenger bag blows in an accident, the driver side [should have] blown too. The side-impact airbags are obviously independant; they might not necessarily deploy when the front bags deploy or vice versa, but the two front bags are on the same deployment loop. The exception being the B7 airbags with the passenger sensing system/active passenger side airbag...depending on if someone is sitting in the passenger seat, or if the person is too small, in an accident it might deploy only the driver side bag and not deploy the passenger side bag, but NEVER vice-versa.

I think those instances of B7 bag retrofits (where the B6 was crashed and the pass bag deployed but the driver side did NOT) were simply that the B7 bag is....wait for it....simply NOT compatible (in any way) with a B6 single stage SDM.

JMO.

ben

[AvanTTix]

Im almost positive that there are no circumstances under which the SDM (I dont know what audi calls their airbag module, GM calls it a Sensory Diagnostic Module) will intentionally fire the passenger side bag but not fire the driver side bag.

If the passenger bag blows in an accident, the driver side [should have] blown too. The side-impact airbags are obviously independant; they might not necessarily deploy when the front bags deploy or vice versa, but the two front bags are on the same deployment loop. The exception being the B7 airbags with the passenger sensing system/active passenger side airbag...depending on if someone is sitting in the passenger seat, or if the person is too small, in an accident it might deploy only the driver side bag and not deploy the passenger side bag, but NEVER vice-versa.

I think those instances of B7 bag retrofits (where the B6 was crashed and the pass bag deployed but the driver side did NOT) were simply that the B7 bag is....wait for it....simply NOT compatible (in any way) with a B6 single stage SDM.

JMO.

ben

ORL'Y... You naysayers are making this way too easy... ...

Let's see. As unfortunate as Tony's accident was, this was a perfect example as to what could happen when a car w/ an OEM airbag set-up crashes.

Well tonight I crashed my car on my way to my girlfriends house. ... I'm in the fast lane going 65 because it's raining pretty heavily and I didn't feel like speeding. Next thing I know, my car is slowly doing a 180 across all 3 lanes and I smash driver side first into a huge wall. At this point my car is facing traffic along the side shoulder in the pouring rain. My passenger side airbag went off but mine didn't...

Wanna reconsider your statement Ben... ...

Now Ben, do not take this personally. I'm just trying to illustrate that when it comes to airbags, unless one has an extensive understanding of their operating mode as well as first hand experience, we all know sh!t and we're all just drawing our own assumptions/conclusions.

The statement below is probably the most reliable piece of information posted on this particular topic just b/c it comes from someone who has experience in this field. Albeit it's still second hand information, but it makes so much sense.

It is a fact that the seatbelt restraints, steering wheel or pass side airbags can fire independently of one another, so having the passenger airbag go, but not the driver's is entirely feasible.

My brother does R&D on the seatbelt things for an automotive supplier, confirmed the above.

Why would you develop a system that would be costly to replace and that could also lead to more injuries due to unnecessary deployment?

Imagine the cost insurance companies would have to pay if the airbag system wasn't engineered in a way that each unit is somewhat independent from each other when cars get into accidents. The side curtains are independent from the SW airbag or the passenger airbag. Obviously sensors are located throughout the car to provide the on-board computer to figure out which airbag(s) need to be fired off and when.

I would actually not be surprised to hear/learn that insurance companies played a role when auto-makers decided to implement bladders in passenger seats to confirm the presence of a person in that seat before deploying the airbag.

[dmaxben]

I do know that the pretensioners can fire with or without an airbag deployment.

Did you check the airbag control module as to what DTC's were set? Usually they will set a 'latched' (cant be cleared/reset) code for deployment threshold exceeded and a DTC for each airbag that was fired. If there were any faults present at the time of the crash.

My info also comes from a safety/restraints engineer...(but he is at GM)...ok???? Now of course you can say "duh well this isnt a shitty old GM now is it, its an AUDI", but GM has been making airbags and active restraints longer than anyone else, so I would think it would be a fair guess that other car mfg's follow the typical GM-airbag scenarios???? (the SDM wont fire only the passenger side bag without also firing the driver side bag)

So im not totally pulling assumptions out of my butt. Regardless, until I find an instance of a B7-airbag-swapped-B6 having a crash with a proper driver side deployment, its ALL just "speculation".....

[AvanTTix]

There is/was one:

There's a guy here with a B6 cab that had the B7 steering wheel pop in his accident, thought it would be nice to get more data.

[Turbavanttro]

GM has been making airbags and active restraints longer than anyone else, so I would think it would be a fair guess that other car mfg's follow the typical GM-airbag scenarios???? (the SDM wont fire only the passenger side bag without also firing the driver side bag)

Personally, I dont think that is a fair guess at all. I think it is quite a far fetched guess....and sounds as if it was pulled quite directly out of your arse. Nothing against your friend's input, but that logic has no factual basis whatsoever. I would guess the exact opposite based on the fact that car manufacturers spend millions upon millions in airbag research and development trying to win the highest safety ratings and out-perform their competitors.

[CyberPMG]

I think we can all agree that anything reported or commented is simply speculation and personal unprofessional opinions. Owner assumes responsibility for any potential risk (if there are any).

What could have been worth testing is to get several airbag systems (sensors, ECU, airbags, etc) instead of getting whole cars and then conduct a series of controlled tests to see what triggers steering wheel airbag deployment for both a one stage steering wheel and a two stage steering wheel integrated into a one stage system. It would have been more cost efficient and not have to wreck cars (although the argument can also be made that the only way to test is in a car). By isolating and testing only the airbag system, we could understand how it works and if it works the same way when integrating a two stage steering wheel.

Too bad we can't come up with some sort of Urban Myth and give it over to Mythbusters. They could do the testing for us. They love to crash stuff anyway.

[Turbavanttro]

Too bad we can't come up with some sort of Urban Myth and give it over to Mythbusters. They could do the testing for us. They love to crash stuff anyway.

great idea!

[dmaxben]

Personally, I dont think that is a fair guess at all. I think it is quite a far fetched guess....and sounds as if it was pulled quite directly out of your arse. Nothing against your friend's input, but that logic has no factual basis whatsoever. I would guess the exact opposite based on the fact that car manufacturers spend millions upon millions in airbag research and development trying to win the highest safety ratings and out-perform their competitors.

Fair enough. I still think the final ruling is "unknown"...IMO it cant be said with any degree of certainty as to whether "yes, it will 100% work properly" or "no, it wont work at all".

However AvanTTix's info also comes from "a friend in the safety/restraints industry"...so whos to say either of our sources are right or wrong?

or its just cause im the newb here, my source's word automatically has less merit which ok, I can understand.

Airbags are by definition "supplemental restraints", they are 100% designed to be used in conjunction with seatbelts, obviously, as we all know. Car manufacturers design them around (and to be most effective with) seatbelt usage. If the occupant isnt wearing a seatbelt, car mfg's are "off the hook" so to speak and theoretically/technically have no responsibility in terms of designing the airbag to work/protect the occupant in that scenario. Yes, auto mfg's DO do out-of-position airbag testing, but the odds of their results being repeatable in the real world are slim to none.

Of course the holy grail would be if someone could contact an audi 8E safety/restraints engineer and get a definitive (albiet 'off the record') answer.

I suppose another way, is if someone took a B6 single stage bag, and a B7 two stage bag, and setup high speed cameras, and a very precise/accurate meter/scope to measure peak current draw, duration, and resistance when the airbag is fired. Measure the electrical data when a single stage bag is deployed, and compare it to both when a B7 bag has both stages wired in parallel, when both are wired in series, and finally with only one or the other stage hooked up. Then review high speed camera footage of the two and compare ignition timing, deployment characteristics, and the amount of time it takes from sending the electrical signal to full deployment/inflation. If I had a couple thousand bucks to spend on this, thats the way I would do it...

Like I said, im not arguing over whos right and whos wrong, but I dont think its fair to call out a definitive answer on this and people doing this swap SHOULD be made well aware of the potential risks.

Ben

[derleicaman]

Unfortunately, this debate has been going around and around for quite some time. All we have so far is some anecdotal reference to "I heard of a guy with a B6 Cab whose B7 airbag went off". And some people have heard that the B7 hadn't gone off when the passenger's side did. I can also see the reluctance of anyone to commit to writing what they have done or had happen with airbag deployment for fear of a problem with their insurance, so I guess we will never know for sure.

What did we do in the days before SW airbags? We used our seatbelts, which will prevent more serious injury to the driver than an airbag ever will. I still have my Nardi wheel from my 1973 BMW 2002. I shudder to contemplate getting in an accident with that thing in my chest, but I drove with it for many years without incident or a second thought. There is a reason why the airbag is called a "supplemental restraint system" - because its not the primary restraint system. Seat belts are. When seat belts were first introduced, there were a lot of the same arguments!

[Turbavanttro]

Ben, I've never taken sides on this issue, there are few if any solid facts to support any conclusion. your points are duly noted but didnt offer any additional facts to support either argument. I did not even notice or think about whether you were a noob or not.

the facts are pretty clear, the issue is an open case and will remain that. One thing is for sure in my opinion, I love my B6 with the multi-function flat bottom wheel alot more than I did without it. I chose to do this mod because I wanted the look, feel, and functions of the flat bottom MFSW, and decided I am comfortable with the uncertainty regarding the airbag.

The other day I was reminiscing the good ol days of the rear facing back seats in 70s-era station wagons and fold down beds in conversion vans we used to play and sleep in cars and vans on road trips all the time!

[HX_Guy]

Glad to see this thread did so well...29,000+ views. :) I ended up making a blog if anyone needs it for future reference and this thread disappears.

Audi DIY MFSW Retrofit

[Hyde]

It may be on one of these pages, but I don't see it. I'm looking for the part number of the yellow plug in this photo. I'm trying to go back to stock, and I've lost my stock connector:



While I'm here, the reason I'm going back to stock is that with the RS4 steering wheel installed, my wipers and horn don't function. The clockspring and control module have been changed several times in pursuit of the problem. As of right now, the RS4 wheel is installed using the new clockspring and stock control module. VAGCOM says "short to ground" for the wipers, and the horn fault doesn't show up at all. In going back to stock, I'll see if my horn and wipers return. If they don't (or do), can one of you bright 'Ziners point me in the right direction?

[AudiTLC]

There is some basic confusion on how airbags work. Sorry this is so long but basic info that is not represented:

The two stage system has (2) ignitors. Ignitor 1=green, Ignitor 2=orange
These ignitors are inside the Inflator module
The Inflator module is a chemical explosive charge with the 2 ignitors inbedded.
When current hits the ignitor(s), it causes a chemical reaction which releases N2 gas- similar to a rocket.
The gas expands the airbag in milliseconds.


Low speed crash= Ignitor 1 fires
High speed= Ignitor 1 & 2 fires
Intermediate speed= Ignitor 1 fires>millisec's>Ignitor 2 fires

A multi (in this case 2 ignitors & three possible levels of deployment) stage airbag does not have two airbags.
It is one airbag and two ignitors that activate the explosive charge
1 ignitor=fewer crystals ignite=lower pressure airbag deployment
2 ignitors=all crystals ignite=high pressure deployment
1+2=tiered deployment


It is a simple system and is not dependent on the airbag/steering wheel side.
The wires lead to the inflator module (the explosive just behind the airbag)


Put current into it and it will blow.
Put current into ignitor 1 connector and it will blow.
Put current into ignitor 2 and it will blow.
Put current to 1+2 and it will blow.


Audi will never disclose airbag ignition info or rates. These are ECU/Airbag sensor trade secrets that each company develops.
I would never use GM as an example of airbag development or deployment info for Audi. GM started with a completely different system than Audi (late adopters). They all work in similar fashion now but every company has it's own system and ecu/sensor differences may be significant.


Does Audi actually have three stages of firing (slow/inter/high)? I don't know but highly likely.
Does Audi have at least two? Yes
Will changing the steering wheel end change the firing seqence? No.


Like a detonator wired to dynamite, the dynamite end is not what determines firing sequence. It is the control/ecu end that does that.
The ignitor end's purpose is to explode. It does not control stages of explosion.


Airbags must "save" the life of an "unbelted 50th percentile male". That is a gov. mandate from 1998 (same yr as "2nd gen airbags").
Airbags can cause injury and death. They are a tradeoff of best of the worst case.
Early airbags may not be worth the tradeoff, imo (thus the gov. mandate for softer airbags).


Thanks to HXGuy for all the R&D to make functions work, makes for an interesting read.


All of what I have written is opinion and conjecture. It is not fact and should not be taken as fact or accurate information. It's all theory and conjecture on how the Audi airbags work. This is simply theoretical discussion and in no way should be used in the real world. No one should take this information and use it for reference in any way.

[krew53]

It may be on one of these pages, but I don't see it. I'm looking for the part number of the yellow plug in this photo. I'm trying to go back to stock, and I've lost my stock connector:



While I'm here, the reason I'm going back to stock is that with the RS4 steering wheel installed, my wipers and horn don't function. The clockspring and control module have been changed several times in pursuit of the problem. As of right now, the RS4 wheel is installed using the new clockspring and stock control module. VAGCOM says "short to ground" for the wipers, and the horn fault doesn't show up at all. In going back to stock, I'll see if my horn and wipers return. If they don't (or do), can one of you bright 'Ziners point me in the right direction?

The part number is 8E0-972-133

[Hyde]

^OMG thank you. I've been dealing with this mess for far too long.

[krew53]

^OMG thank you. I've been dealing with this mess for far too long.

Not a problem.

[a4udi55]

Hello.
My name is Gökhan. I am from Turkey. :)
My car is 2003 A4.
my car has a manual gearbox and four-spoke steering wheel.
currently on the steering modules:
S/C Ring : 4E0-953-541-C
Column Module : 8E0-953-549-F

I bought mfsw.
I want to get the modules that are needed now.
column module: 8E0-953-549-R or Q
S/C Ring - 4E0-953-541-A or B

Are these the correct part numbers?
Thanks.

[a4udi55]

Help me, please !

[Matt Devo]

Are these the correct part numbers?
Thanks.

yes

[a4udi55]

yes

Thanks.

[a4udi55]

I bought the airbag: 8P0 880 201 AK_6PS (Audi A3 2008)

It is a 3-spoke airbag that.



Is it compatible with 2003 model A4?
Thanks.

[a4udi55]

I bought the airbag: 8P0 880 201 AK_6PS (Audi A3 2008)

It is a 3-spoke airbag that.



Is it compatible with 2003 model A4?
Thanks.

Please, I need your help on this issue.

[onceover]

No one knows for sure if B7 bags are compatible with B6's since theyre dual stage and B6's arent. People do run them though, so its your call.

[a4udi55]

No one knows for sure if B7 bags are compatible with B6's since theyre dual stage and B6's arent. People do run them though, so its your call.

yes I know it.
I wonder in my subject, A3 airbag compatible with A4 airbag?

[onceover]

A3 bags are identical to B7 ones. Same answer applies

[a4udi55]

A3 bags are identical to B7 ones. Same answer applies

Thank you very much.
I'll be here soon with a new share. :)

[drjonez]

While I hate to necro-bump, I'd like to add that you can use the first gen (pre-facelift or whatever...) S5 wheel and airbag. It is the same basic design as the standard 3 spoke MFSW, no changes from the rest of this DIY.

[UFfitz56]

I am pretty sure the MK6 GTI wheels have single stage airbags. I wonder if those would fit? This wheel is one my favorite things about my GTI. You could always just replace the VW badge. At least the airbag should work.

[markaudi]

hey guys,

sorry to bring an old thread to life but i've been searching on this topic and none of the posts really speak to what i'm doing here.

i have a B6 with a four spoke MFSW and changing over to a B7 three spoke with multi function. My main concern is the clock spring (or S/C ring). I bought 4E0 953 541 A off of ebay and am planning to buy 4F0 971 589 A (4F0 971 589 A is supersede to 4F0 971 589 K) from my dealership.

what i'm unclear about is all the pictures i'm seeing of the clock spring look like it fits the older single stage airbag wire harness.

can anyone confirm if i have the right parts? I'm also assuming i need to get and change over to the new 4 pin connector 4E0-972-133 as this plugs into the new clock spring.

thanks.

[speedshopmike]

hey guys,

sorry to bring an old thread to life but i've been searching on this topic and none of the posts really speak to what i'm doing here.

i have a B6 with a four spoke MFSW and changing over to a B7 three spoke with multi function. My main concern is the clock spring (or S/C ring). I bought 4E0 953 541 A off of ebay and am planning to buy 4F0 971 589 A (4F0 971 589 A is supersede to 4F0 971 589 K) from my dealership.

what i'm unclear about is all the pictures i'm seeing of the clock spring look like it fits the older single stage airbag wire harness.

can anyone confirm if i have the right parts? I'm also assuming i need to get and change over to the new 4 pin connector 4E0-972-133 as this plugs into the new clock spring.

thanks.

Mark, I'm prepping to do exactly the same swap as you.
What did you discover, assuming you got it done?
thanks much

[iamshayan]

Mark, I'm prepping to do exactly the same swap as you.
What did you discover, assuming you got it done?
thanks much

before you guys go and buy parts pm me. I have a set of clock spring/ control module / airbag wires for this mod that i'm not using.

[speedshopmike]

Shayan, mine is now apart and i'm going to need some of that stuff.
Please pm me your email, i don't text.
thank you

[Dubsport Inc]

OP just completed this conversion.. With extra parts from Shayan! Thank you very much for the write up!