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  1. #1
    Registered Member Four Rings A4NCAR's Avatar
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    VAG'd my car....

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    JHM wanted me to log some Blocks and check Fault Codes, so I had my Audi tech use his VAGCOM and see what was going on in there. The VAGCOM they use is so cool (touch screen,..etc), I gotta get me one. Anyways, this diagnostic was done at idle, here's the log info; they wanted me to check Blocks 020, 114 and 118. Note: on Block 020, my tech put in 20 and said it is the same (although, there were no readings).


    02 - Interrogate fault memory:
    2 Fault detected

    17522 P1114 008
    Bank 1, sensor 2
    Internal resistance too large
    sporadic

    17978 P1570 008
    Engine control unit disabled
    sporadic

    08 - Reading Measuring Value Block:

    Display group 20
    Read data block

    0.0 KW
    0.0 KW
    0.0 KW
    0.0 KW

    Display group 114
    Read data block

    96.2%
    94.0%
    20.3%
    0.0%

    Display group 118
    Read data block

    760 /min
    58.0 C
    0.0%
    1000 mbar

  2. #2
    Veteran Member Four Rings neoprufrok's Avatar
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    Hmm at least JHM got back to you. I wish I knew what that stuff meant.
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  3. #3
    Veteran Member Three Rings lawong's Avatar
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    the touchscreen version of VAGCOM is the VAG5052. That thing is so cool.

    Measuring block 020 is the knock sensors. Looks like you are running clean.

    Here's a site with all the measuring block descriptions.

    http://www.ross-tech.com/vag-com/m_blocks/

  4. #4
    Registered Member Four Rings A4NCAR's Avatar
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    Originally posted by lawong
    the touchscreen version of VAGCOM is the VAG5052. That thing is so cool.

    Measuring block 020 is the knock sensors. Looks like you are running clean.

    Here's a site with all the measuring block descriptions.

    http://www.ross-tech.com/vag-com/m_blocks/

    How much are they? Although I'd love to have a carputer with touch screen that could do that.

    And since I was running with 100 octane, no "knock". Guess I should put in 91 octane and check it out.

  5. #5
    Registered Member Four Rings A4NCAR's Avatar
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    Originally posted by neoprufrok
    Hmm at least JHM got back to you. I wish I knew what that stuff meant.

    Actually, Mike at Ikon did. I haven't heard back once from JHM since the dyno day I don't think it should be up to me to keep calling them and get a progress report. The tuner should be the one calling the customer until it is resolved.

  6. #6
    Veteran Member Four Rings neoprufrok's Avatar
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    Originally posted by A4NCAR
    Actually, Mike at Ikon did. I haven't heard back once from JHM since the dyno day I don't think it should be up to me to keep calling them and get a progress report. The tuner should be the one calling the customer until it is resolved.
    Yeah I agree. Its almost as if when a problem arises, some of these tuners just try their best to ignore the situation, hoping that the customer will just give up and go somewhere else.

    Wierd. Big props to Mike at Ikon for pulling through.
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  7. #7
    Veteran Member Three Rings lawong's Avatar
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    Originally posted by A4NCAR
    How much are they? Although I'd love to have a carputer with touch screen that could do that.

    And since I was running with 100 octane, no "knock". Guess I should put in 91 octane and check it out.
    I think you need a VAG5051 before you can purchase a VAG5052. A VAG5051 costs $20k? The VAG5052 costs $2k.

    I believe they are also wireless so they can get update tech bulletins from Audi over the wireless network in the Audi shops.

    But for half the cost, you can just pickup a tablet PC or connect a VAG-COM into your carputer.

  8. #8
    i'm running a vagcom into my carputer.. i have the software squared away.. but where can i get a cheap vag cable? i mean really cheap? it has to be serial w/ drivers and everything...

  9. #9
    Veteran Member Four Rings Jet Jockey's Avatar
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    Yeah, keep us posted on what the fault codes mean.

  10. #10
    Veteran Member Four Rings Jet Jockey's Avatar
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    Originally posted by lawong
    the touchscreen version of VAGCOM is the VAG5052. That thing is so cool.

    Measuring block 020 is the knock sensors. Looks like you are running clean.

    Here's a site with all the measuring block descriptions.

    http://www.ross-tech.com/vag-com/m_blocks/
    Does anyone know what the two faults mean?

    02 - Interrogate fault memory:
    2 Fault detected

    17522 P1114 008
    Bank 1, sensor 2
    Internal resistance too large
    sporadic

    17978 P1570 008
    Engine control unit disabled
    sporadic

  11. #11
    Veteran Member Four Rings teutonic_blur's Avatar
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    Originally posted by A4Tuuuurbo
    i'm running a vagcom into my carputer.. i have the software squared away.. but where can i get a cheap vag cable? i mean really cheap? it has to be serial w/ drivers and everything...
    Here: http://www.obdtool.com
    If A is a success in life, then A equals x plus y plus z. Work is x; y is play; and z is keeping your mouth shut.
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  12. #12
    Veteran Member Three Rings lawong's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Jet Jockey
    Does anyone know what the two faults mean?

    02 - Interrogate fault memory:
    2 Fault detected

    17522 P1114 008
    Bank 1, sensor 2
    Internal resistance too large
    sporadic

    17978 P1570 008
    Engine control unit disabled
    sporadic
    17522 is referring to the O2 sensors. Most likely just a loose connection to the sensor.
    17978 is odd tho. That DTC is more of a Immobilizer fault than an ECU code.


    There are some codes that are generated after swapping ECUs. I can't remember if these look like them or not, but I think I remember reading one code as being resistance too high. I don't see that here, so I'm a bit puzzled.

    A4NCAR, were these DTCs generated by swapping the ECU or were they triggered after running your car for a while?

  13. #13
    Registered Member Four Rings A4NCAR's Avatar
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    Originally posted by lawong
    17522 is referring to the O2 sensors. Most likely just a loose connection to the sensor.
    17978 is odd tho. That DTC is more of a Immobilizer fault than an ECU code.


    There are some codes that are generated after swapping ECUs. I can't remember if these look like them or not, but I think I remember reading one code as being resistance too high. I don't see that here, so I'm a bit puzzled.

    A4NCAR, were these DTCs generated by swapping the ECU or were they triggered after running your car for a while?

    Where is this "O2 Sensor? Maybe I can check the connector.

    The first time anyone VAG'd my car for codes was when Marc at AMS dyno'd it. He did mention a strange code that he's seen before floating around, but I can't recall. Should have had him print out all of that first. I think he cleared all of them though at that time. These recent codes were taken after that. Not sure if they were generated by the MTM ECM SW, but most likely they were.

  14. #14
    Veteran Member Four Rings Saturnine's Avatar
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    Vag stuff is confusing.
    '03 Audi A4 Avant, lightly modded My name is John.

  15. #15
    Veteran Member Three Rings lawong's Avatar
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    Originally posted by A4NCAR
    Where is this "O2 Sensor? Maybe I can check the connector.

    The first time anyone VAG'd my car for codes was when Marc at AMS dyno'd it. He did mention a strange code that he's seen before floating around, but I can't recall. Should have had him print out all of that first. I think he cleared all of them though at that time. These recent codes were taken after that. Not sure if they were generated by the MTM ECM SW, but most likely they were.
    My 02 Bentley Manual sucks, but I have the 04 Bentley Manual for a Passat and it says to check the oxygen sensor heating behind the catalytic converter. That's where the sensor is located.

    You can also read on the 01 - Engine, 08 - Measuring Block - Block #041, check the oxygen sensor heater in the 3rd display field. It should remain below 2 ohms.
    On the 4th field, that field should alternate between on and off.

    I'm guessing the above should be the same for our cars as it is for the Passat, but I can't say for sure.

  16. #16
    Veteran Member Four Rings teutonic_blur's Avatar
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    Originally posted by A4NCAR
    Where is this "O2 Sensor? Maybe I can check the connector.

    The first time anyone VAG'd my car for codes was when Marc at AMS dyno'd it. He did mention a strange code that he's seen before floating around, but I can't recall. Should have had him print out all of that first. I think he cleared all of them though at that time. These recent codes were taken after that. Not sure if they were generated by the MTM ECM SW, but most likely they were.
    I get the 17522 code every once in a while. I don't know if it is related to the Revo software or not. It's supposed to indicate a bad O2 sensor and/or connection. I clear it and it goes away for months and then comes back again. I'm not too worried about it. Even if an O2 sensor goes 100% bad it is not something that can damage the engine. Maybe the fuel mileage will suffer and so will emissions but that's about it. What I mean is that you don't have to run to the dealer.

    The other one you're getting is definitely weird -- I have no clue as to what could cause it.
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  17. #17
    Established Member Two Rings teknik's Avatar
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    Originally posted by A4NCAR
    How much are they? Although I'd love to have a carputer with touch screen that could do that.

    And since I was running with 100 octane, no "knock". Guess I should put in 91 octane and check it out.

    block 08 is showing no knock cause you arent getting into it....

    you will see some ignition trim at full throttle... when I was hearing audible ping, I was seeing 3 - 11 degrees of pull....

    I really hope you get this squared away, I lost it on JHM only to have them dial out some timing or add fuel or something so I cant hear the pinging anymore... which I still do on occasion..

    APR releases their stage 3 for our cars next month, I have a feeling they will be getting some of my money... especialy after my fiasco with hoppen...
    Last edited by teknik; 06-27-2004 at 07:25 AM.

  18. #18
    Registered Member Four Rings A4NCAR's Avatar
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    Originally posted by teknik
    block 08 is showing no knock cause you arent getting into it....

    you will see some ignition trim at full throttle... when I was hearing audible ping, I was seeing 10-25 degrees of pull....

    I really hope you get this squared away, I lost it on JHM only to have them dial out some timing or add fuel or something so I cant hear the pinging anymore... which I still do on occasion..

    APR releases their stage 3 for our cars next month, I have a feeling they will be getting some of my money... especialy after my fiasco with hoppen...
    10-25 degrees!?! When we used the ProDaig (and running 91 octane) we saw 3-11 degrees. Pinging was very audible. I'm not hearing it on 100 octane, but I haven't vag'd it while running. I'll have to do that, but I just started putting 91 octane back in (can't keep spending $4.79 gl for 100).

    The timing on mine was already adjusted when I dyno'd on the MAHA at AMS. And although it helped some, it didn't cure it (as you probably know).

    Did you post something before about your JHM/MTM issue? I seem to recall one or two others with pinging. So there's two of us now. How many more I wonder? This is not good.

    Which MTM upgrade do you have and what octane fuel are you using? Also, did you have any strange feeling hesitation/jerkiness in 1st and 2nd between 2-3K RPM's?

  19. #19
    Established Member Two Rings teknik's Avatar
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    10-15.. i miss typed...

    93 octane

    stage 1+ chip/injectors


    I had some surging/hesitation but that cleared up when I changed my DV/cleaned out my airbox...

    I slammed JHM on audiworld,

    http://forums.audiworld.com/a4gen2/msgs/551522.phtml

    search for my name t3kn1k...

    lots of 1+ info....
    Last edited by teknik; 06-27-2004 at 07:24 AM.

  20. #20
    Established Member Two Rings teknik's Avatar
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    after rereading my own thread, same as you...

    3 - 11 degrees... hmmmm somethings up with 03 stuff... what month was your car built? im going to check mine today.
    ///MONEY PIT MOTORSPORTS
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  21. #21
    Registered Member Four Rings A4NCAR's Avatar
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    Originally posted by teknik
    10-15.. i miss typed...

    93 octane

    stage 1+ chip/injectors


    I had some surging/hesitation but that cleared up when I changed my DV/cleaned out my airbox...

    I slammed JHM on audiworld,

    http://forums.audiworld.com/a4gen2/msgs/551522.phtml

    search for my name t3kn1k...

    lots of 1+ info....


    Yeah, now I remember that post (I replied). Didn't they help you out after that though? So as of right now, your car still has issues then? If yes, that doesn't sound promising for me. What's even stranger is that you are using 93 octane.

    As to the surging/hesitation; my Forge DVR is brand new and my airbox is fine. I know it is not related to those because they have been checked out. Plus the fact that the problem improved after adjusting the timing back.

    IMO; MTM/JHM needs to do more testing with US '02-'03 A4 B6's on 91 octane. Even Dahlback has admitted to problems getting their numbers on 91 octane.

  22. #22
    Established Member Two Rings teknik's Avatar
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    they applied a band aid.... dialed out some timing or added fuel, not sure what....

    honestly I live 1.5 hours south of JHM....

    but I just dont have the tme to go up there, and have them check it.
    ///MONEY PIT MOTORSPORTS
    95 318ti S52 Turbo aka The Money Pit
    95 M3 - DD - Green Machine

  23. #23
    Registered Member Four Rings A4NCAR's Avatar
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    Originally posted by teknik
    they applied a band aid.... dialed out some timing or added fuel, not sure what....

    honestly I live 1.5 hours south of JHM....

    but I just dont have the tme to go up there, and have them check it.
    But how it is running now in your opinion - still pinging on 93 octane? Did you dyno it? I don't want a band-aid. Closest MTM dealer is 6 hrs from me But I do have a local tuner willing to help. Maybe I should have went with AMS or Sportec... maybe even Dalhback, if they can get it right. I was planning on the MTM Stage 4, but I have serious concerns now.

  24. #24
    Established Member Two Rings teknik's Avatar
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    it runs ok...

    I really cant say... nothing to comapre it to. it still pings on occasion..

    some days it runs like a raped ape... others slow...

    no 4 wheel dynos anywhere close...

    I am going to vag my car tomorrow as well.. I have seen that intermittent o2 code before and I am starting to wonder if thats the culprit..
    ///MONEY PIT MOTORSPORTS
    95 318ti S52 Turbo aka The Money Pit
    95 M3 - DD - Green Machine

  25. #25
    Registered Member Four Rings A4NCAR's Avatar
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    Originally posted by teknik
    it runs ok...

    I really cant say... nothing to comapre it to. it still pings on occasion..

    some days it runs like a raped ape... others slow...

    no 4 wheel dynos anywhere close...

    I am going to vag my car tomorrow as well.. I have seen that intermittent o2 code before and I am starting to wonder if thats the culprit..
    ok, is not ok with me Let me know what the VAGCOM says.

    Are you close to Champion Motorsport ? They have an AWD dyno.

  26. #26
    Established Member Two Rings teknik's Avatar
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    well my friend dropped of his hex-com, I loaded up my laptop with the vag com software, jumped in, scanned

    0 codes...

    I then drove the car... It ran great

    WTF....

    I am going to log the blocks you have listed... and see what happens
    ///MONEY PIT MOTORSPORTS
    95 318ti S52 Turbo aka The Money Pit
    95 M3 - DD - Green Machine

  27. #27
    Established Member Two Rings teknik's Avatar
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    well, the car is back to pinging.....

    I let off when it started....


    2 back to back runs.. pinged both times



  28. #28
    Registered Member Four Rings A4NCAR's Avatar
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    Originally posted by teknik
    well, the car is back to pinging.....

    I let off when it started....


    2 back to back runs.. pinged both times


    I wish I understood it more to read it properly. But on Block 020, "Knock Sensor", I guess those numbers above "0" mean pinging. Show this to Hoppen.

    What was the outdoor temps like?

    Now that I'm back to 91 octane, I'm noticing a loss of power after driving time and pushing it WOT. Haven't really heard pingin gthough which is strange. But I'm sure it's happening now.

  29. #29
    Established Member Two Rings teknik's Avatar
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    temp was about 80...

    I have been doing a lot of research into the problem tonight....

    go to the vortex and search for pinging in the archived 1.8t forum... MTM comes up ALOT....

    not just an issue with the b6's it seems.

    I am going to look into fuel trims tomorrow, do some data logging on my way to work...

    have you made any progress with your car?
    ///MONEY PIT MOTORSPORTS
    95 318ti S52 Turbo aka The Money Pit
    95 M3 - DD - Green Machine

  30. #30
    Established Member Two Rings teknik's Avatar
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    more info:

    scenario: car was runnig great, then I hooked up the VAG, checked for codes, and just for the hell of it reset the codes...

    indoing so I cleared the fuel trims, which would explain the instant change in the performance "i.e. pinging" of the car.

    what I learned
    ========================================
    Information on Fuel Trim originally posted by Andy@Ross-Tech IE our Vag-Com God

    Some of the most common fault codes (DTC's) pertain to fuel trim. Here is an explanation of fuel trim and what it does for us.
    The ECU controls Air/Fuel mixture in order to maintain power, efficiency, and emissions. A/F is expressed as either a ratio (14.7:1 for example) or as a Lambda value. With iso-octane ("ideal" gasoline), Lambda of 1.0 is equal to 14.7:1 A/F. This is known as "Stoichiometric", a condition where there is a perfect balance between oxygen molecules and the various hydrogen and carbon based molecules in petroleum. With the oxygenated gasoline that most of us use, actual A/F ratio of 15:1 is closer to stoichiometric.

    If Lambda is greater than 1.0, then there is a surplus of air and the engine is running lean. If Lambda is less than 1.0, then there is a surplus of fuel and the engine is running rich. It should be noted that the ratios are mass-based, not volume-based.

    So, why don't we always run at 1.0 all the time? Well, we do MOST of the
    time. At cruise and idle, mixture is held tightly to 1.0 to keep the catalytic convertor at optimal efficiency, so the emissions are minimized. However, when we need acceleration, the mixture gets richer. Why? Maximum power is made between 0.85 to 0.95 Lambda (12.5 to 14.0 A/F with iso-octane). So, under acceleration, mixtures get richer. Sometimes you want to get even richer under acceleration to keep detonation (pre-ignition of the mixture from excess cylinder temperatures) away. The 1.8T has a relatively high compression ratio for a turbocharged engine, which especially under lots of boost, is very succeptible to detonation).

    So, now that we know that the ECU wants to be able to control the A/F ratio. It has a prescribed set of values (maps) for a given RPM, Load, etc. So, the ECU tells the injectors to pulse for exactly XX.X milliseconds and that SHOULD get us the proper A/F ratio that we want. Well, if you tell an employee to go do something, you want to make sure they actually did it, right? The ECU has some snitches (the front O2 sensor and the MAF, for the most part) that will report back whether or not the desired mixture has been attained. The rear O2 sensor is used mostly to monitor the condition of the catalytic convertor, although in some applications it also contributes to trim information.

    Based on feedback from the snitches, the ECU learns to apply a correction factor to its commands to the fuel injectors. If you know that your employees take longer than the standard allotted time to do a specified job, you will need to adjust for that in your planning (injectors are in a union, so it is tough to fire them ). The learned values go between the maps in the ECU's Flash ROM (the "chip") and the signal to the fuel injectors. These learned compensations are known as "trim". So, when you see "trim", it means "compensation".

    "Add" means additive trim, which is addressing an imbalance at idle. When the ECU is using additive trim, it is telling the injectors to stay open a fixed amount longer or shorter. The malfunction (e.g. vacuum leak) becomes less significant as RPM increase. For additive adaptation values, the injection timing is changed by a fixed amount. This value is not dependent on the basic injection timing.

    "Mult" mean multiplicative trim, which is addressing an imbalance at all engine speeds. The malfunction (e.g. clogged injector) becomes more severe at increased RPM. For multiplicative adaptation values, there is a
    percentage change in injection timing. This change is dependent on the basic injection timing.

    You can check your current state of trim by using VAG-COM or equivalent to look in Group 032 in your engine measuring blocks. The first two fields will have percentages. The first field tells the fuel trim at idle (Additive). The second field tells the fuel trim at elevated engine speeds (Multiplicative). Negative values indicate that the engine is running too rich and oxygen sensor control is therefore making it more lean by reducing the amount of time that the injectors are open. Positive values indicate that the engine is running too lean and oxygen sensor control is therefore making it richer by increasing the amount of time that the injectors are open.

    It is totally normal for both the first and second fields to be something other than zero. In fact, zeros indicate either you just cleared codes (which will reset fuel trim values) or something isn't working properly. If values get too far away from zero, it will cause a DTC (fault code) and can set off the MIL (commonly referred to as the Check Engine Light, or CEL). Specifications for normal operation are usually somewhere near +/- 10%.

    In general, an out-of-spec value in the first field (Additive) indicates a vacuum leak since it is mostly present at idle, when vacuum is highest. An out-of-spec value in the second field (Multiplicative) indicates a fault at higher RPM, and may point to a faulty MAF.

    Here's a good sanity check for the status of your MAF. Do a full-throttle run all the way to redline in a single gear (second works fine). Group 002 usually shows air mass in g/s. Your peak airflow should be roughly 0.80 times your horsepower. So, if you have a stock 150 hp 1.8T, expect around 120 g/s. If you see significantly less than that, you MAF may be on the way out. This still works if you are chipped, but "race" programs may make more power through timing, rather than airflow. Therefore, take all readings with a grain of salt

    ============================

    today im going to let the car adapt, and then check some more stuff...

    hopefully I can find a problem...
    ///MONEY PIT MOTORSPORTS
    95 318ti S52 Turbo aka The Money Pit
    95 M3 - DD - Green Machine

  31. #31
    Registered Member Four Rings A4NCAR's Avatar
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    Whew! Some insightful reading. When you start thinking about what's going on in there, with the A/F ratio, injectors pulsing the right amount, timing, sensors readings from O2/MAF, making adjustments,..etc., it sounds scary . So touchy and the slightest change with the ECM can send it off.

    Thing is, why are "WE" the ones doing this research?

    I'm still not noticing as much pinging, now that I'm back to 91 octane, but I can sense the power loss again (after driving hard). Ambient temps are in the upper 70's to mid 80's. Once it is in the 80's and 90's though, is when it really becomes noticeable. I'm sure the pinging is there too.

    I need to have my tech do another VAGCOM in "real time" (like you did) and get readings, while under load in 3rd and 4th gear too. Blocks; 020, 114, 118, 10, 9, any Fault Codes [DTC's], and I think I'll add Block 032 [Trim] to those as well.

  32. #32
    Established Member Two Rings teknik's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 20 2004
    AZ Member #
    1344
    Location
    FL

    Originally posted by A4NCAR


    Thing is, why are "WE" the ones doing this research?

    if you want something done right.....

    anywho...

    fuel trims all seem fine

    .4 and -6.4

    going to start digging into ignition now...

    I will also do this

    http://forums.audiworld.com/vag/msgs/457.phtml

    and post the result.... it aint a MAHA, but well see what it says...

    what do our cars weigh again?

  33. #33
    Established Member Two Rings teknik's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 20 2004
    AZ Member #
    1344
    Location
    FL

    reset my ecu by disconnecting the negative on the battery... theory behind that is it clears the stored values for the ignition trims

    cars pulls much harder now... still pings...

    found a coolant leak though... need to have that fixed before I can really go any further though...

  34. #34
    Established Member Two Rings wiszmaster's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 19 2004
    AZ Member #
    714
    My Garage
    '97 A6 Avant Q
    Location
    Fort Myers, FL & Miami, FL

    hmmnnn .....

    let me know if you ever need to borrow my vag & let me know what you find out. i've been kind of talking with revo in sarasota & i might just go up there sometime within the month to see about their software.


    did you ever get your motormount swapped out?
    Marco 'wiszmaster'

    CURRENT: '97 A6 Avant Q | '02 Jetta 2.0 | '00 Pontiac Montana ;)
    PREV VAG: '04 A4 1.8T QMT6 | '02 Jetta TDI | '99 Passat 1.8T Wagon | '98 GTI VR6 Ginster
    PREV X:'06 BMW 530i | '05 VW Touareg V8 | '04 BMW 530i ...........

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