RS3 FACELIFT vs BMW M2

[Heat00]

btw I put the same conti dws06 on my m2 a few months back and I saw zero difference on that car as well... (for street driving). Guess my blood runs with 1320 as the only track I have ever seen is a 1/4 mile strip. guess I'm getting old.

[Crowlski]

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a6...-drive-report/

This might put to rest the traction discussion

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[Heat00]

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a6...-drive-report/

This might put to rest the traction discussion

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yup, the m2 needs this in a bad way.... and if or when the m2 gets xdrive, I suspect it will leap ahead of the rs3, at least in terms of acceleration, 0-60, 1/4 etc. not to mention the handling... wonder if it then tops the rs3 around the ring...

[IanCH]

yup, the m2 needs this in a bad way.... and if or when the m2 gets xdrive, I suspect it will leap ahead of the rs3, at least in terms of acceleration, 0-60, 1/4 etc. not to mention the handling... wonder if it then tops the rs3 around the ring...

The current M2 record is 5 sec slower than RS3, but the M2 has PS4S and the RS3 has trofeo R. The M2 RWD would likely beat the RS3 in current 2025 LCI form with the same tires.

The AWD variant will post a 2.6-2.7 0-60... nuff said.

[RudyH]

It's absolutely wild that audi gets away with mag tests and stats taken with trofeo R tires on the car. The track specific tires that might last for 7k miles of road driving... if you put any other car on those tires you are dropping 5sec+ off the lap times.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a4...eife-ring-lap/

like Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2? I hear they are pretty good tires too lol
have to post your sources / do research

Yes I completely agree though, tire technology is so important. My wife thinks I go a bit too crazy on tires, but I let her make her own choices regarding tires one year, and the next year she asked me to buy new tires for her.

I think the real argument is that the Nordschleife was repaved, so the RS3 was able to take advantage of that 5 seconds...but no sources on that argument neither.


Anyway,

Audi RS3 on optional Trofeo R: 7:33.123
BMW M2 on optional PSC2: 7:38.71

[Jetdriver]

I never understood why people cheap out on tires or discount the significance of running a good tire. The one thing that is connecting your car to earth.

[IanCH]

https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a4...eife-ring-lap/

like Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2? I hear they are pretty good tires too lol
have to post your sources / do research

Yes I completely agree though, tire technology is so important. My wife thinks I go a bit too crazy on tires, but I let her make her own choices regarding tires one year, and the next year she asked me to buy new tires for her.

I think the real argument is that the Nordschleife was repaved, so the RS3 was able to take advantage of that 5 seconds...but no sources on that argument neither.


Anyway,

Audi RS3 on optional Trofeo R: 7:33.123
BMW M2 on optional PSC2: 7:38.71

Yes but trofeo R tires are even more crazy than Cup 2 tires. Cup 2 are actual streetable track day 200tw tires, where the trofeo R is actually just for getting to the track on the street and is a real race tire compound.

From the C&D lighting lap on a 3 minute ish total lap time switching to the trofeo R tires gave the RS3 a 9 second advantage over the regular summers

[Jetdriver]

https://youtu.be/GwVF4mKu6BY?si=_ZGtO5sTdxPiFAgU

[Heat00]

I never understood why people cheap out on tires or discount the significance of running a good tire. The one thing that is connecting your car to earth.

If this is directed towards me, it has nothing to do with being cheap lol... it has more to do with my needs or what I see value in. I find no advantage to a summer tire (for my needs) on any car I've owned. check my sig, I'm the opposite of cheap out on things lol.. but there is ZERO advantage for MY driving and purpose so I opt for a longer lasting tire otherwise its a waste of money in my scenario. I am NOT going to the ring or any other road coarse ever and there is ZERO extra traction that a summer tire adds, when we're talking about straight line performance, at least based on my own tests... which is all I care about. I realize this car is more capable and made for tracks and corners etc. but I don't care nor have I ever pushed it through corners to the point where the tire compound matters and it's not why I bought the RS3... besides, where i live most of the roads are straight, 1320 ft at a time, there ain't no tail of the dragon around here.

My m2, 5 scat packs, 1 hellcat, and now RS3 saw no help whatsoever from summers when it comes to 'traction' off the line or even rolling .. that's what I was trying to say lol. I tested both on each car many times over. the hellcat still broke loose even when it had summers, on a dry day, at 45 MPH. our m2 is not far behind btw.

[Heat00]

The current M2 record is 5 sec slower than RS3, but the M2 has PS4S and the RS3 has trofeo R. The M2 RWD would likely beat the RS3 in current 2025 LCI form with the same tires.

The AWD variant will post a 2.6-2.7 0-60... nuff said.

I understand and its to my point, I wish our M2 had AWD. it has a serious traction problem currently (even with the OEM summers lol). I was actually surprised as it's almost as bad as my hellcat which I did not expect for some reason... I guess any RWD with loads of power is bound to have this issue... although our m340i did a much better job getting out of the hole... then again, it's short a bunch of power... our m340i was pretty darn fast, it actually beat my scat pack when we lined them up, albeit not by much and with more road the displacement eventually would have caught up and won... same with the hellcat... people only gave me problems from a stop because of traction, from higher speeds it was lights out for most of them including the x6m and lambo that I got tangled up with (in mexico of course). no tire made any difference on that car, short of slicks.

[Jetdriver]

If this is directed towards me, it has nothing to do with being cheap lol... it has more to do with my needs or what I see value in. I find no advantage to a summer tire (for my needs) on any car I've owned. check my sig, I'm the opposite of cheap out on things lol.. but there is ZERO advantage for MY driving and purpose so I opt for a longer lasting tire otherwise its a waste of money in my scenario. I am NOT going to the ring or any other road coarse ever and there is ZERO extra traction that a summer tire adds, when we're talking about straight line performance, at least based on my own tests... which is all I care about. I realize this car is more capable and made for tracks and corners etc. but I don't care nor have I ever pushed it through corners to the point where the tire compound matters and it's not why I bought the RS3... besides, where i live most of the roads are straight, 1320 ft at a time, there ain't no tail of the dragon around here.

My m2, 5 scat packs, 1 hellcat, and now RS3 saw no help whatsoever from summers when it comes to 'traction' off the line or even rolling .. that's what I was trying to say lol. I tested both on each car many times over. the hellcat still broke loose even when it had summers, on a dry day, at 45 MPH. our m2 is not far behind btw.

Not necessarily directly towards you. Just people in general that cheap out on tires. I am a big proponent of Ultra High-Po All Seasons, like the Mich Pilot AS4's. I run them on my WRX and they're great tires.

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[Crowlski]

Not necessarily directly towards you. Just people in general that cheap out on tires. I am a big proponent of Ultra High-Po All Seasons, like the Mich Pilot AS4's. I run them on my WRX and they're great tires.

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Bunch a cheap bastards.. all of ya!! Lol..
J/k
I do agree that the tires make the difference. If you own a high performance car then give it what it needs but that is dependent on your style of driving and where you drive. I being the dummy that I am found out that the M3 I ordered will come with Summer rubber which should not be driven in snow or below 35° in any circumstances. So living on the East Coast, this means a trip to my local tire shop in the fall for a set of good AWUHP tires will be in order.

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[Heat00]

Not necessarily directly towards you. Just people in general that cheap out on tires. I am a big proponent of Ultra High-Po All Seasons, like the Mich Pilot AS4's. I run them on my WRX and they're great tires.

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agreed. i used to run the ps4as but as of the last 12 months or so, they seemed to have jumped up in price. they used to be about the same price of the dws06 so I always opted for the ps4as'. I didn't even see them for the rs3 i just looked now. I also looked at the m2 just now and they are only 1285 vs 1131... guess they came down a bit. I recall a few month's ago they were a few hundred more. both tires have been good to me in the past.

funny enough, this morning I woke up and the passenger rear was at 14 lbs. what a pain at 8:00 am I found a screw.. had to take the tire off the car, and plug it. (yes I do it myself if I'm at home or close by) but I'm getting old and it's getting hard to get the dam plug into the tire LOL.. my son was asleep or I would have borrowed his strength... and yes I know an inside patch is better but I've been driving for 30 years about 25k/year and I've had a zillion plugs. my x3 had 3 in one tire and never lost a single lbs of pressure, they work just fine.. just getting difficult to get the plug into the tire these days as I get older hahah.. was a pain too as the car is pretty low and you can't really get any leverage lying on the ground with the tire on the car. with this car it would be difficult to plug if this happened on the road.. guess that's when I cash in my aaa and let them plug it.

not to open another debate but not having a spare is the stupidest new trend ever created. I get it, save money and weight but I have had situations where you can't repair it and the only solution is a spare or a tow. it happened in my hellcat and I had to wait 3 hours for a flat bed in a bad area by myself.. just saying, a spare solves that problem so easily I had an aftermarket one in my charger and my x3 but not sure about this car, there really isn't even room, it would eat up the whole trunk if it wasn't under the floor board like it should be.

sorry for the rant lol.. just funny while on the tire subject I get a flat .. of course I do , murphys law kicked in this morning hahah

[Heat00]

Bunch a cheap bastards.. all of ya!! Lol..
J/k
I do agree that the tires make the difference. If you own a high performance car then give it what it needs but that is dependent on your style of driving and where you drive. I being the dummy that I am found out that the M3 I ordered will come with Summer rubber which should not be driven in snow or below 35° in any circumstances. So living on the East Coast, this means a trip to my local tire shop in the fall for a set of good AWUHP tires will be in order.

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yea we don't worry about 35 degress in Miami LOL.. although this winter we did have some high 40 mornings... but aside from those few days, its usually 90 plus around here.. certainly we ain't getting an snow .. still like the AS's for wet even if cold temps aren't an issue.

[Crowlski]

yea we don't worry about 35 degress in Miami LOL.. although this winter we did have some high 40 mornings... but aside from those few days, its usually 90 plus around here.. certainly we ain't getting an snow .. still like the AS's for wet even if cold temps aren't an issue.

Ha! My sister is far north of you near Jax and she got snow this winter. Crazy. Yeah I don't plan to risk spinning out in the M3 in the winter on Summer tires

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[Heat00]

had the m2 and rs3 both washed today, sun came out so I grabbed the photographer and we went out for a quick shoot... I think we got some great shots, will post them up when I get them... got some rolling ones too which should look cool... here are a few from our last 2 shoots... but since this thread is m2/rs3, the pics will be relevant LOL..


10.6.23 alex bmw (52).jpg10.6.23 alex bmw (72).jpg8.6.22 chargers (20).jpg8.6.22 chargers (10).jpg

[Crowlski]

had the m2 and rs3 both washed today, sun came out so I grabbed the photographer and we went out for a quick shoot... I think we got some great shots, will post them up when I get them... got some rolling ones too which should look cool... here are a few from our last 2 shoots... but since this thread is m2/rs3, the pics will be relevant LOL..


10.6.23 alex bmw (52).jpg10.6.23 alex bmw (72).jpg8.6.22 chargers (20).jpg8.6.22 chargers (10).jpg

Great shots! Hey cool cars are always welcome. Love the green HC.

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[Heat00]

Great shots! Hey cool cars are always welcome. Love the green HC.

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Thanks bud. I miss the chargers more than any car. They were a ton of fun , they just got ruined by people driving like idiots and stealing them … then discontinued by the idiot CEO of stelantis … at least the new CEO has his head on straight and can maybe save the dodge brand from bankruptcy. A 2 year old could have made better decisions , they took away the only reason anyone bought any of their cars lol… and it was working , they outsold mustang and Camaro in22 I believe , selling a ton of units…now the lots are filled with ev junk collecting dust hahah

[Crowlski]

Thanks bud. I miss the chargers more than any car. They were a ton of fun , they just got ruined by people driving like idiots and stealing them … then discontinued by the idiot CEO of stelantis … at least the new CEO has his head on straight and can maybe save the dodge brand from bankruptcy. A 2 year old could have made better decisions , they took away the only reason anyone bought any of their cars lol… and it was working , they outsold mustang and Camaro in22 I believe , selling a ton of units…now the lots are filled with ev junk collecting dust hahah

Yeah Stelliantis really feel apart. I get there's an EV mandate, or was, but they discontinued all the cars everyone wanted. EV Charger?? Where'd that end up sales wise so far?

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[RudyH]

Yes but trofeo R tires are even more crazy than Cup 2 tires. Cup 2 are actual streetable track day 200tw tires, where the trofeo R is actually just for getting to the track on the street and is a real race tire compound.

From the C&D lighting lap on a 3 minute ish total lap time switching to the trofeo R tires gave the RS3 a 9 second advantage over the regular summers

https://www.motor1.com/news/435497/t...elli-goodyear/

are you maybe thinking of the Trofeo RS?
trying to post again, man this site sucks now...constantly trying to install stuff on my PC, but Google keeps blocking it...

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/...=230&t=1479991

You make it sound like we are comparing a PS4S to a Trofeo R, which is not what was happening.

stock M2 is running on PS4S (max performance summer)
stock RS3 is running on PZero's (max performance summer)

M2 was running on a PSC2 (streetable track and competition)
https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires...ot+Sport+Cup+2

RS3 was running on a Trofeo R (streetable track and competition)
https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires...+Zero+Trofeo+R

[IanCH]

https://www.motor1.com/news/435497/t...elli-goodyear/

are you maybe thinking of the Trofeo RS?
trying to post again, man this site sucks now...constantly trying to install stuff on my PC, but Google keeps blocking it...

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/...=230&t=1479991

You make it sound like we are comparing a PS4S to a Trofeo R, which is not what was happening.

stock M2 is running on PS4S (max performance summer)
stock RS3 is running on PZero's (max performance summer)

M2 was running on a PSC2 (extreme performance summer)
RS3 was running on a Trofeo R (streetable track and competition)

Don't I know it, it just froze my chrome on my phone trying to reply. Audizine going to shite.

The gist of what I'm saying is that there is something like 4-6 seconds that the m2 would pick up on the ring if it also had trofeo r tires.

The 9 second advantage was the rs3 on vir for lightning lap. Everyone who drove the rs3 with those tires said they were cheater tires given that you would never run them on a street car.

[RudyH]

Don't I know it, it just froze my chrome on my phone trying to reply. Audizine going to shite.

The gist of what I'm saying is that there is something like 4-6 seconds that the m2 would pick up on the ring if it also had trofeo r tires.

The 9 second advantage was the rs3 on vir for lightning lap. Everyone who drove the rs3 with those tires said they were cheater tires given that you would never run them on a street car.

I updated the link for PSC2 (M2 Nurburg time), and both them and the Trofeo R's (RS3 Nurburg time) are considered 'streetable track and competition' tires according to Tirerack. I do get your point of 9 seconds between tires on the 8Y RS3 vs 8Y.5 RS3 though. The M2 which was 5 seconds slower, was also on a 'streetable track and competition' tire. Maybe not as good as a streetable track and competition tire, but its hardly a PS4S.

[IanCH]

The cup 2 is not even close to the trofeo r.

If the trofeo had a treadwear rating it would be sub 100.

According to other sources I found, trofeo R drops around 2seconds per 2 minutes of lap time vs cup 2. Lots of use real world experience corroborating the 50% tread life.

[bokiboki]

The cup 2 is not even close to the trofeo r.

If the trofeo had a treadwear rating it would be sub 100.

According to other sources I found, trofeo R drops around 2seconds per 2 minutes of lap time vs cup 2. Lots of use real world experience corroborating the 50% tread life.

Yep, I thought I saw somewhere that Trofeo R's have thread wear rating of 60 but I could be wrong.

[RudyH]

The cup 2 is not even close to the trofeo r.

If the trofeo had a treadwear rating it would be sub 100.

According to other sources I found, trofeo R drops around 2seconds per 2 minutes of lap time vs cup 2. Lots of use real world experience corroborating the 50% tread life.

2025 Audi RS3 on optional Trofeo R: 7:33.123
2022 BMW M2 on optional PSC2: 7:38.71
2022 Audi RS3 on optional Trofeo R: 7:40.75


**edit this changes everything, updated 2022 RS3 on Trofeo's...

Ok so taking a step back, a 8Y RS3 with street tires is 2 seconds behind a G87 M2 with PSC2 streetable track tires.
The Trofeo R is a 'godly streetable track tire' and knocked over 5 seconds off a time vs a comparable tire in its class. I say over 5 seconds, because we are certain the M2 is faster than a RS3 around a race track.

What we don't know is how fast a M2 is on street tires, but apparently Michelin makes terrible tires. You are suggesting, a PS4S is even worse than a P Zero? OR the gap between the PSC2 is non existent and the PS4S, and you are stupid to pay more for a PSC2's?

Then there is that slight chance too the M2 or the driver is slower, then say a RS3, or its driver around the race track.

Don't get me wrong, a 6MT RWD /w sports diff M2 is going to be one of those cars you want to keep. A potentially future M2 with xDrive and it's ZF will likely be able to take out the RS3 on the track, but the RS3 is lighter and has so much more assistance over the current M2, I don't think it's just tires that has it going faster around the 'Ring.

[LazyEvul]

One thing worth noting is the 2022 RS3 Ring record was also on Trofeo Rs, as confirmed in this Audi press release: https://www.audi-mediacenter.com/en/...ct-class-14102

So the M2 with Cup 2s already beat the RS3 with Trofeo Rs once. The facelift taking back the record clearly wasn't down to the tires at that point, they haven't changed. There's definitely a lot more factors at play here.

It'd be interesting to see the M2 LCI run a lap with its extra power, but my guess is BMW isn't going to run another record attempt at least until the M2 CS comes out.

[Heat00]

In the end, they are both great cars (i currently own both) and does it really matter which one is a few seconds faster around the track in Germany? Yes I get it.... it's the benchmark of how we measure each car and it's capabilities but most of us will never have either car on that track, nor are we professional drivers (most of us anyhow).

for an every day car, for me, it's not even close. I would never buy the m2 no matter what tires or track times it has. Many of us use these cars as daily drivers in which case most of this stuff is out the window. also my rs3 came with summer bridgestones... which didn't last long albeit they did "feel" like better handling tires then my current DWS06's, not that I care. I don't recall what came on my M2, I believe it was one of the summer pirellis, pzero somethings...

[9kracing]

my rs3 came with summer bridgestones... which didn't last long albeit they did "feel" like better handling tires then my current DWS06's

I actually disagree, the Bridgestones that come on the car are trash. I can't wait till we burn through them.

Firestone Firehawks are better even.

[yukoncornelius]

This thread is going into a discussion on tires but I'm pretty surprised you see no value from conti DWS to summers...

When I had my rs3 and went from stock summer pzeros to conti dws06 for winter and back to pzeros in spring - I vividly remember how much sharper the brake pedal feel and ability was.... Its quite noticeable to me in normal driving, let alone hooning it...

On my m340 now, I chose to go with pilot sport as4 - I think they have a much better road feel than dws06. M340 came with some touring bridgestone summers which are blah for performance... and the ps as4 really transformed the handling and feel of it. I guess I agree with Ian, tires are likely THE best low hanging fruit mod you can do, and I think the difference between a proper summer and dws is very noticeable and worth it, IF, you're really wanting to feel the capabilities of the car. If its a year round daily you dont care about, sure the dws is a great tire in its own right for that. dws was my defacto choice for the high performance all season tire but man I really like the ps as4 now that I've had time with it.

I'd really like to see how much difference I could feel between ps as4 and ps4s, in daily and spirited driving.

[Crowlski]

Whats funny to me is I've owned two RS3s and just come to realize I've had Summer tires (oem) the whole time and I live in NJ. Not sure how bad this was traction wise but I won't make that mistake again

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[RudyH]

One thing worth noting is the 2022 RS3 Ring record was also on Trofeo Rs, as confirmed in this Audi press release: https://www.audi-mediacenter.com/en/...ct-class-14102

So the M2 with Cup 2s already beat the RS3 with Trofeo Rs once. The facelift taking back the record clearly wasn't down to the tires at that point, they haven't changed. There's definitely a lot more factors at play here.

It'd be interesting to see the M2 LCI run a lap with its extra power, but my guess is BMW isn't going to run another record attempt at least until the M2 CS comes out.

oh wow, I didn't notice that part. I guess need to just read the actual article from Audi, and happy to update my info, good find
In other words, the 8Y.5 RS3 is a huge upgrade handling wise compared to the 8Y

[Crowlski]

oh wow, I didn't notice that part. I guess need to just read the actual article from Audi, and happy to update my info, good find
In other words, the 8Y.5 RS3 is a huge upgrade handling wise compared to the 8Y

What will be interesting is when the M2 comes out as an xdrive model. Although we are still coupe vs sedan it will be fun to watch.

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