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View Full Version : re-writing ko4 file



xcdhracer15
02-24-2006, 09:48 AM
there was mention of this in a few post recently but i was wondering if anyone has contacted giac or not?


i would like to go pc-16 but after seeing all the recent dyno's, they havent been that impressive and the a/f seems to be a big problem with it.


is there any way several of us could come up with something to send to jeff moss about the ko4 pc16 problem and try and get him to re-write the big injector file.


several companies have kits for the audi tt 225 motor that are making around 280hp/ 300torque (not the exact same turbo or motor, but very similar) and at only 18psi.


it also seems that the j31 file for the dbw cars makes considerably more power than the pc16 (higher boost) but i havent seen a/f for this file.

Aliel
02-24-2006, 09:55 AM
I'm still waiting to go to the dyno. After I get the readings I will definitely start fighting I they come out shitty.

I also had an offer from Dahlback to start writing a software for the K04 (fully tested) but I'm the only tester car and we need 2 or 3. Nobody answered my thread though. People don't realise that Dahlback does wonders and TighTT's 225T hit over 260awhp with the dahlback software and boltons.

xcdhracer15
02-24-2006, 10:28 AM
i dont believe 260awhp, 260-280 crank is more like it.


i would be a test car for dahlback but i'm too far away. i'm in maine.

Aliel
02-24-2006, 10:46 AM
On a TT 225 not an A4. But you know its still good numbers and means there is hope for K04s

SeanF
02-24-2006, 11:10 AM
thats also a different k04, and a different motor, the tt's quattro system is also very different for putting the power down...

illbill
02-24-2006, 11:18 AM
Adam's car did hit 260+ whp, I was there when he dyno'ed.


Originally posted by xcdhracer15
i dont believe 260awhp, 260-280 crank is more like it.


i would be a test car for dahlback but i'm too far away. i'm in maine.

b00st
02-24-2006, 12:41 PM
Originally posted by SeanF
thats also a different k04, and a different motor, the tt's quattro system is also very different for putting the power down...

yeah they run the haldex system which is way different than our...which is why they can put more down to the wheels.

b00st
02-24-2006, 12:44 PM
i wish the file would be re-written. i am going to the local giac dealer and we are going to do vag logs and look over the car for any issues that may cause the bad A/F conditions. will do some 3 gear WOT pulls and log some blocks.

i

NogaroA4
02-24-2006, 04:26 PM
If they rewrote it i would probally get it...I'm stock and looking for an upgrade. but nothing out there impresses me. The elim and unitronics is just to expensive in my opion, I mean 1595 for a gt28rs because they redesigned the manifold..and 920 for the software it outragous. yeah there tyring to pay off the 10,000 dollar buy in to get ahold of the software, but still, the chip on the ecu is 2 dollars, your just paying for the tuning time, since there being mass produced now your basically paying 920 to some little tweaking to a mass produced file. and the ko4 just doesnt put down the power that it should.[rolleyes]

Rosati
02-24-2006, 05:01 PM
Originally posted by Aliel
I'm still waiting to go to the dyno. After I get the readings I will definitely start fighting I they come out shitty.

I also had an offer from Dahlback to start writing a software for the K04 (fully tested) but I'm the only tester car and we need 2 or 3. Nobody answered my thread though. People don't realise that Dahlback does wonders and TighTT's 225T hit over 260awhp with the dahlback software and boltons.

The locals know about it, i can tell you that much. especially on AW

94jedi
02-27-2006, 01:17 PM
I wonder if you guys would be interested in a "fixed" pc-16? I'm just kicking around ideas here but I've always liked the supposed tq of the k04. I'm thinking we could try to tune out some of the issues with an safc. Who knows, maybe jeff moss can help us out?? Problem is the b5 is a dead chassis, we usually get shafted.

SeanF
02-27-2006, 01:34 PM
what i dont get though, is its not a dead chassis... its now getting to the point where the majority of people who fix up their cars (young adults/16-30) can easily afford a b5, and thats what they are doing...

Don Supreme
02-27-2006, 01:45 PM
Originally posted by NogaroA4
If they rewrote it i would probally get it...I'm stock and looking for an upgrade. but nothing out there impresses me. The elim and unitronics is just to expensive in my opion, I mean 1595 for a gt28rs because they redesigned the manifold..and 920 for the software it outragous. yeah there tyring to pay off the 10,000 dollar buy in to get ahold of the software, but still, the chip on the ecu is 2 dollars, your just paying for the tuning time, since there being mass produced now your basically paying 920 to some little tweaking to a mass produced file. and the ko4 just doesnt put down the power that it should.[rolleyes]

Are you kidding me? Yes, I think the whole Elim kit is too expensive, but do you think Ko4 software is going to sell for $4 dollars?

I am sure if you were to buy PC-16 software coming from stock GIAC will probably charge you $699+!!!

If they made software for BTs they would probably charge even more.

And about putting down more power... I am sure they could squeeze some more out of pc-16 but not much past what the j31 is making....... have you seen the size of a ko3/ko4? I am amazed it makes what it makes!

lovintheboost
02-27-2006, 02:39 PM
so what file is best for my roomate? he has a 2001 5spd ko4,exshaust, fmic, and probably TT injectors. its all being done in march... j31?

SeanF
02-27-2006, 02:58 PM
j31 is MY2000 only

NogaroA4
02-27-2006, 05:48 PM
Originally posted by Don Supreme
Are you kidding me? Yes, I think the whole Elim kit is too expensive, but do you think Ko4 software is going to sell for $4 dollars?

I am sure if you were to buy PC-16 software coming from stock GIAC will probably charge you $699+!!!

If they made software for BTs they would probably charge even more.

And about putting down more power... I am sure they could squeeze some more out of pc-16 but not much past what the j31 is making....... have you seen the size of a ko3/ko4? I am amazed it makes what it makes!

umm actually awe charges 500 for the software if your coming from stock, and you can catch it for 450 on special at the shows from them...not 699 sorry

TwentyValveB5
02-27-2006, 07:24 PM
Originally posted by lovintheboost
so what file is best for my roomate? he has a 2001 5spd ko4,exshaust, fmic, and probably TT injectors. its all being done in march... j31?

FXK04 was just released for the '01. you'll need 380cc injectors and a tt225 MAF.

TwentyValveB5
02-27-2006, 07:25 PM
I'm strongly considering being a guinea pig for a new nDBW K04 program... maybe something with a TT225 MAF and 380cc injectors? I need to make a trip up to LA to see Jeff Moss.

Don Supreme
02-27-2006, 07:38 PM
Originally posted by NogaroA4
umm actually awe charges 500 for the software if your coming from stock, and you can catch it for 450 on special at the shows from them...not 699 sorry

I didn't look at an exact number, nor was I trying to match the exact number, my point was it was not going to cost $4.

Additionally, show me where they only charge $500. That is the same price for k03 software for my 2000 A4.

Hmm, well the nDBW software for KO3 IS ONLY $400, so maybe that also has something to do with the price.

lovintheboost
02-28-2006, 12:18 AM
Originally posted by TwentyValveB5
FXK04 was just released for the '01. you'll need 380cc injectors and a tt225 MAF.
so is the fxko4 going to make as much power on an 01 as the j31 does on the 2000?
my lazy ass roomate needs to do his own research..lol tried to search but it seems like there is little info on 2001

94jedi
02-28-2006, 04:38 AM
I just saw an fxk04 dyno making like 220+ on a 2001.

xcdhracer15
02-28-2006, 08:01 AM
it made like 200whp and 220wtq but that was in a fwd passat. a lot less drivetrain loss.

94jedi
02-28-2006, 08:57 AM
^ it made 211 whp

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2470009

b00st
02-28-2006, 09:14 AM
well i email J.Moss the link to the PC16 thread i started and it has another dyno sheet from someone else in it. perhaps that can get something started.

Daft
02-28-2006, 09:25 AM
Well it made the 211whp on one run and it made the 223wtq on another. That means that they ran less boost on the 211whp run than the run where they made 223wtq. Typically you tend to make a few less hp and a few more lbft when you simply add a couple psi of boost with no major fuel/timing changes.

Honestly, it appears that no matter what 1.8T motor you have in your A4, the K04-15 pretty much tops out around the 250-260CHP or 190-195whp on a quattro car. Anything after that is little tweaks to the fuel or timing.

If you're hell bent on making the most possible power out of your K04 with an assortment of extra bolt-ons that the mass-produced file won't fully utilize, you need a custom tune. That's the bottom line. I still don't see your peak WHP going alot futher though.

You have to ask yourself whether the cost-vs-HP ratio is really worth it.

I think that in the long run, those who seek more HP and aren't going to pay $4K for a kit, need to just go the piece-by-piece route. It's been done enough times and yields pretty solid numbers.

b00st
02-28-2006, 09:45 AM
Originally posted by Daft
Well it made the 211whp on one run and it made the 223wtq on another. That means that they ran less boost on the 211whp run than the run where they made 223wtq. Typically you tend to make a few less hp and a few more lbft when you simply add a couple psi of boost with no major fuel/timing changes.

Honestly, it appears that no matter what 1.8T motor you have in your A4, the K04-15 pretty much tops out around the 250-260CHP or 190-195whp on a quattro car. Anything after that is little tweaks to the fuel or timing.

If you're hell bent on making the most possible power out of your K04 with an assortment of extra bolt-ons that the mass-produced file won't fully utilize, you need a custom tune. That's the bottom line. I still don't see your peak WHP going alot futher though.

You have to ask yourself whether the cost-vs-HP ratio is really worth it.

I think that in the long run, those who seek more HP and aren't going to pay $4K for a kit, need to just go the piece-by-piece route. It's been done enough times and yields pretty solid numbers.

couldn't have said it better myself.

SeanF
02-28-2006, 10:04 AM
Originally posted by b00st
could have said it better myself.

so do it ;)

onemoremile
02-28-2006, 10:14 AM
just so you all know (i'm sure a lot of you already do), the K04 on the TT, the RS4, and the RS6 all flow better than the K04-15 we use on the A4. as far as power output goes, the TT K04 is about halfway between our K04-15 and an APR stage 3.

260+ hp on a K04-15 will give you some blazing hot intake temps. that little huffer is way out of it's efficiency range at that point.

94jedi
02-28-2006, 10:16 AM
I think that's the k04-23 the TT's use, or something to that effect.

94jedi
02-28-2006, 10:38 AM
you know what? I'm done with my k04 aspirations. K04 is a good Turbo for those not wanting anymore power than maybe 200 awhp tops. At least on Quattro b5's. A BT is superior in every way. T25 or GT28r B5 would be just as good at auto x as a k04 if not better. no more k04 talk for me. I thought it would be the easy way out but it's just not the right thing to do, for me at least.

NogaroA4
02-28-2006, 10:45 AM
If they could some how get a good reliable kit that would give me 225 awhp i would be thrilled. but everything cost way to much in my opion

Daft
02-28-2006, 11:29 AM
Originally posted by 94jedi
you know what? I'm done with my k04 aspirations. K04 is a good Turbo for those not wanting anymore power than maybe 200 awhp tops. At least on Quattro b5's.

I'm glad that you see this now. The K04-15 is a very limited part. You really only have a 40-50CHP increase over a chipped K03 with it.

Back when I bought my A4, I saw how people were paying $500+ for a K03 chip and then looking at spending $1500 more for an extra 40-50HP. It just seemed like a waste of money to me.

With the parts that are out there and the variety of tuning shops that can help you custom tune a BT setup, the K04 is just not a good $-to-HP part.

If you have a daily driver car and you want to make the most power you can without a ton of bolt-ons and taking your car to the nearest dyno shop for tuning sessions, the K04 is the best "off-the-shelf" solution for the price.

The PES or APR stage III kits are good for this purpose too but, they do cost a great deal more so, it's really a different type of product. I still feel that the stage III kits really need a custom tune to make them work at their full potential. I'm sure that they leave these standard issue programs detuned a bit to keep customer's cars safe from engine damage.

94jedi
02-28-2006, 11:42 AM
^ I hear ya. The GT2x Elim from ATP would do that. but yeah it's pricey because Uni is expensive and Mika is chit.

this was meant in re: to nogaro's post.

b00st
02-28-2006, 12:13 PM
Originally posted by SeanF
so do it ;)

OK...so my typing is TEH SUCK [:D]
i fix0red my original post.[:p]

NogaroA4
02-28-2006, 12:22 PM
Originally posted by 94jedi
^ I hear ya. The GT2x Elim from ATP would do that. but yeah it's pricey because Uni is expensive and Mika is chit.

this was meant in re: to nogaro's post.

exactly...All I really want is a relaible car. More hp would be great but reliablity is my number one issue thats why I will probally go ko4. Althought if unitronics lowers there price or another software comes out that is tunable to the user like hondata for honda owners. I would without a doubt go with the gt2x elim.

shindo5oi
02-28-2006, 06:01 PM
I wish I would have never gone with the gt2x. I should I have left the ko4 in and done more. I loved it and never had a problem just wanted more power. My gt2x has not been relaible from day one. the turbo would not keep a boost level at all. ATP had to send me 3 turbos to get one that would work and it never held more then 10psi. That was with a greddy profect b on the car. I now put a 38mm tial wastegate on it and now Im trying to tuning it out and mika s/w blows so Im screwed. Sorry this was to NogaroA4 and 94jedi

NogaroA4
02-28-2006, 07:09 PM
Originally posted by shindo5oi
I wish I would have never gone with the gt2x. I should I have left the ko4 in and done more. I loved it and never had a problem just wanted more power. My gt2x has not been relaible from day one. the turbo would not keep a boost level at all. ATP had to send me 3 turbos to get one that would work and it never held more then 10psi. That was with a greddy profect b on the car. I now put a 38mm tial wastegate on it and now Im trying to tuning it out and mika s/w blows so Im screwed. Sorry this was to NogaroA4 and 94jedi


thanks that helps alot...did u ever think of unitronics...i know there really expensive b ut still

shindo5oi
02-28-2006, 07:13 PM
I didnt know about them untill the last couple months. I got my setup in Oct. and at this point money does not matter and I think Im going to go EIP Tuning s/w

NogaroA4
02-28-2006, 07:18 PM
cool let me know how that goes

94jedi
02-28-2006, 07:49 PM
shindo5oi- have you ever thought about a standalone such as 034 efi?

it's a bit more pricey but you'll really get the full power potential of your setup. It will however take some dyno tuning to get it on point but once you do that, you're all set.

shindo5oi
02-28-2006, 07:53 PM
I was thinking about that but I dont know of any shops around the area that have an awd dyno and would be able to tune an audi. I guess its all the same when its standalone. 034 efi is like $800 right?