P0088 error

[Nutcracker69]

Hi guys. I’ve got a 2008 A4 B7 2.0TFSI.
I’m getting the P310b error and the P0087 and P0088. I’ve changed hpfp, low pressure sensor and fuel filter. I’m stuck and lost now. I don’t have a vcds but Im using a Delphi for logs. On idle my lpfp is at 83% duty cycle. . Any advice please guys. Thanks.


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[TheBushLight]

Lpfp should be below 70% duty cycle at operating temperature , anything above that usually leads to an issue with the pump. Plenty of other posts with guys having the same fuel issues [emoji106]


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[vvenom800tt]

Lpfp should be below 70% duty cycle at operating temperature , anything above that usually leads to an issue with the pump. Plenty of other posts with guys having the same fuel issues [emoji106]


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87676)Wrong.

It should be at 50% at warm idle.

Anything above 55% and its bad.

At 70% its fucked.

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[Nutcracker69]

Ok. Will try and get a lpfp. At idle I’m getting 83% duty cycle and 120bar pressure in block 106. In block 103 I’m getting a constant 4 bar fuel pressure and 4000 value in line 2 fuel Pressure regulation. I can’t upload pics otherwise I’d upload my logs.


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[TheBushLight]

Wrong.

It should be at 50% at warm idle.

Anything above 55% and its bad.

At 70% its fucked.

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“When found on FSI engines, MVB 106.2 shows the duty cycle of the lift pump, this value should be below 70%. The higher the number, the more the lift pump has to run to maintain fuel pressure to the High Pressure Fuel Pump”

This is from Ross-tech


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[vvenom800tt]

“When found on FSI engines, MVB 106.2 shows the duty cycle of the lift pump, this value should be below 70%. The higher the number, the more the lift pump has to run to maintain fuel pressure to the High Pressure Fuel Pump”

This is from Ross-tech


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87676)thats not right.

You try running an lpfp that shows anything over 55% at idle and let me know how great your car runs

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[Nutcracker69]

By the way. Just off the fueling issues. What is standard boost for these cars. Everything is still stock.


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[EvolutionArmory]

“When found on FSI engines, MVB 106.2 shows the duty cycle of the lift pump, this value should be below 70%. The higher the number, the more the lift pump has to run to maintain fuel pressure to the High Pressure Fuel Pump”

This is from Ross-tech


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At 70%, your fuel pump is all done. The reality is, anything over 55% is questionable. It might throw codes, it might not.

[Nutcracker69]

I don’t know how much it is in other parts of the worl. Down here in SA the pump is R8000


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[EvolutionArmory]

I don’t know how much it is in other parts of the worl. Down here in SA the pump is R8000


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That’s about 570 USD.

Dealer fuel pumps in the US are about 340.

[Nutcracker69]

As always we getting ripped off out here


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[vvenom800tt]

Just get one off fcp euro. Its $200 and shipping isnt gonna be over $100

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[EvolutionArmory]

Just get one off fcp euro. Its $200 and shipping isnt gonna be over $100

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If they ship overseas that would be a pretty good idea.

[Charles.waite]

83% duty at idle is doneso.

120bar at idle is also wacky. It should be around 60bar at idle ramping up to 120 as it gets closer to redline. There was a vin-split for the high pressure sensor on the fuel rail, I'd ensure you're running the correct one for your engine. Since you have a BWT engine, make sure its the late-VIN sensor. It should have a red connector-side not black: https://www.ecstuning.com/b-genuine-volkswagen-audi-parts/pressure-sensor/06j906051d/ - 06J906051D

[Nutcracker69]

83% duty at idle is doneso.

120bar at idle is also wacky. It should be around 60bar at idle ramping up to 120 as it gets closer to redline. There was a vin-split for the high pressure sensor on the fuel rail, I'd ensure you're running the correct one for your engine. Since you have a BWT engine, make sure its the late-VIN sensor. It should have a red connector-side not black: https://www.ecstuning.com/b-genuine-volkswagen-audi-parts/pressure-sensor/06j906051d/ - 06J906051D

I have contacted Audi and made sure of the sensor. This is the sensor that matches my https://jhmotorsports.com/fuel-pressure-sensor-low-pressure-sensor-oem-for-b7-a4-rs4-b8-s4-s5-w-fsi.html

Btw I have the BWE and not BWT engine.
Thanks


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[Nutcracker69]

Hi gents. I done a few tests. While waiting for an intank pump.
1 what voltage should I be getting at the pump itself on idle? I’m currently on 7/7.2v. I am getting full 12v on the module.

2 why would a fuel pressure gauge that’s fitted in-line before the hpfp jump around like its mad and rarely reaching 6bar. More around 2.5-4 bar.


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[Nutcracker69]

Will it be safe to supply 12v direct to the pump and run it to check? Will I have to remove the module if I try this or is it safe with the module connected.


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[EvolutionArmory]

Hi gents. I done a few tests. While waiting for an intank pump.
1 what voltage should I be getting at the pump itself on idle? I’m currently on 7/7.2v. I am getting full 12v on the module.

2 why would a fuel pressure gauge that’s fitted in-line before the hpfp jump around like its mad and rarely reaching 6bar. More around 2.5-4 bar.


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The car only supplies as much fuel pressure as is requested at any given time so even though the fuel filter is capped off at 6 bar, that doesn’t mean you’ll see a continuous 6 bar at idle. That’s the whole reason for the fuel pump control module. Fuel pressure and volume on demand.

The fact that you have 83% duty cycle screams out bad low pressure fuel pump. If you replace the pump and you still have high duty cycle, then maybe you should replace the low pump control module.

[Nutcracker69]

Guys. Need some advise here. All agents over here either don’t have stock or it’s booked out already. Now my question is, can I fit a 6bar Bosch pump in the basket? Will it work. I have done that before on a bmw 1 series and it worked. Don’t know about Audi.


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[EvolutionArmory]

Aftermarket fuel pumps don’t drop in the basket. You have to use some sort of adapter to hold it in there.

[Nutcracker69]

Aftermarket fuel pumps don’t drop in the basket. You have to use some sort of adapter to hold it in there.

I’m aware of that. Just wondering if it will work. And if 6 bar is the correct pressure and also what flow rate should I go for?


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[EvolutionArmory]

Of course it will work. A 255 LPH pump should be more than enough from stock to K04 cars. You’ll be limited by how many amps the pump can receive by the low pressure controller so you don’t need to go any bigger than a 255 because something like a 340 LPH pump will be wasted on it.

Buy a 255 pump and make sure you have a 6 bar fuel filter.

[Nutcracker69]

Of course it will work. A 255 LPH pump should be more than enough from stock to K04 cars. You’ll be limited by how many amps the pump can receive by the low pressure controller so you don’t need to go any bigger than a 255 because something like a 340 LPH pump will be wasted on it.

Buy a 255 pump and make sure you have a 6 bar fuel filter.

Thanks man. Will go Monday and get one like that give feedback as soon as I fit it.


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[Nutcracker69]

Update:
New 255 lph 6bar pump fitted. Fuel pressure is on 6 bar. Problem is still having the low pressure error. I’m lost now. I just give up. Any ideas?


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[Nutcracker69]

Oh and before I forget. Duty cycle is still high 80s. 83% to be exact.


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[Nutcracker69]

117788117789


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[Nutcracker69]

These pics are on idle


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[Charles.waite]

Pump controller?

[Nutcracker69]

Pump controller?

I have no idea. But I’m basically tired of just throwing money at it now.


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[Nutcracker69]

Does any1 have a wiring test tutorial that I can use to the the sensor plugs


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[EvolutionArmory]

I have no idea. But I’m basically tired of just throwing money at it now.


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Take out your fuel pump controller and look it over for spots that look like it’s getting hot and is maybe even melting the plastic. If it has spots like that, it’s definitely bad. I’m sorry but I don’t have any wiring diagrams for you.

If you weren’t in Africa I would send you my spare fuel pump controller to use for testing when I get it back from the last guy who borrowed it.

[EvolutionArmory]

Another thing you could try is inspecting or changing the fuel pump relay under the ECU.

[Nutcracker69]

Thanks bud. Yeah I’ll have to look at that. But my question is will the controller still cause the low fuel pressure even though Delphi is showing high pressure. I’ll have to try and drive while recording thebdata


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[Nutcracker69]

Oh btw. I had the car at an Audi guy today. He checked everything he could in the time
We had. He made mention that it could be my cat that’s clogged that’s causing this. But now my question is, can he be right. And if so what correlation is there between the cat and fuel pressure


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[EvolutionArmory]

There isn’t one.

These are the things that can can cause your codes.

A bad fuel rail pressure sensor

A bad low pressure sensor

A worn cam follower/high pressure fuel pump

A damaged camshaft from a worn cam follower/high pressure fuel pump

A kinked or clogged fuel line

A clogged fuel filter

A tired low pressure fuel pump

A bad low pressure fuel pump control unit

A fuel pump relay

A bad ECU

Those are the main system components and the most reported failures.

[EvolutionArmory]

And the fact that your duty cycle is through the roof leads to a low pressure fuel issue logically. Audi problems defy logic sometimes 🤣🤣

[Nutcracker69]

From your list the only things that have not been checked or changed are the ECU, camshaft, pump controller and relay. New low pressure sensor, new rail pressure sensor, new lpfp, new filter, new hpfp


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[EvolutionArmory]

Blow out your fuel lines and check them for damage/bends too.

[Nutcracker69]

I took the supply pipe off before the hpfp and at the filter. I blew through it with my mouth and it was clear.


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[Nutcracker69]

Hi gents. Finally getting somewhere. Took the car for a second opinion today to Vw/Audi specialist. He just asked what the car is doing and what codes it’s throwing. Not even hearing or driving the car he says straight up I’ve changed everything except the main thing. He swears it’s the pressure limit valve on the fuel rail that’s failed and dumping all fuel. So he order upgraded RS3 part and it’s coming on Monday. Let’s hold thumbs.


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[EvolutionArmory]

That would be easy to verify. Do a log of block 231. If actual never meets requested fuel pressure on a full throttle pull or there are dips then that could be your problem. This is a graphed out log I did of mine. Actual meets requested almost the entire time.
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g309/zeddirte/52D174D3-E7F8-4402-A9F0-AC34F02744E7.jpg (http://s59.photobucket.com/user/zeddirte/media/52D174D3-E7F8-4402-A9F0-AC34F02744E7.jpg.html)



I highly doubt that would affect your duty cycle at idle unless the valve is completely stuck open though. But as soon as I think I fully understand the fuel system in this engine the system proves me wrong 🤣

[Charles.waite]

Yea that conceivable. The OEM dump valve will open at around 120bar so if your rail pressure isn’t getting there or if it starts fluctuating as it nears the dump point then it’s a likely culprit.

[Nutcracker69]

That would be easy to verify. Do a log of block 231. If actual never meets requested fuel pressure on a full throttle pull or there are dips then that could be your problem. This is a graphed out log I did of mine. Actual meets requested almost the entire time.
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g309/zeddirte/52D174D3-E7F8-4402-A9F0-AC34F02744E7.jpg (http://s59.photobucket.com/user/zeddirte/media/52D174D3-E7F8-4402-A9F0-AC34F02744E7.jpg.html)



I highly doubt that would affect your duty cycle at idle unless the valve is completely stuck open though. But as soon as I think I fully understand the fuel system in this engine the system proves me wrong 🤣

That will work but problem is I don’t own a VAG-Com so I’m using a Delphi. Any idea which block on the Delphi is used to test that.


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[EvolutionArmory]

Look at your Delphi pic from the first page. Your screen shot says it’s looking at value block 106, which is low pressure fuel on VCDS and the factory scan tool.

Find the Delphi test that says 231 if there is one would be my guess. Sorry, I’m not familiar with that tool.

[Nutcracker69]

Cool. Will double check.


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[Theiceman]

would also explain why two pumps duty cycle is so high , they are working full blast to maintain pressure and its just dumping.

Didn't Dalmation have this problem a while back ? speaking of which where is PSE these days ? ( parts swapper extraordinaire )

[Nutcracker69]

Hey gents. I finally got hold of a working Ross-tech cable. I’ve done some running logs. It’s saved as a csv file. But now when I open the file in excel it’s proper gibberish. Is there another program I can use or am I doing something wrong


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[Nutcracker69]

Hi gents. Finally got the new rs4 fprv. And for the love of me the same story. I’m at a total loss now. I just give up on this car. 118821118822118823


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[EvolutionArmory]

Since you have a ton of new parts and it isn’t making a difference it might be a good idea to visit your nearest Audi dealer if there is one and have your ECU software version read and see if there is a factory update.

[EvolutionArmory]

Hey gents. I finally got hold of a working Ross-tech cable. I’ve done some running logs. It’s saved as a csv file. But now when I open the file in excel it’s proper gibberish. Is there another program I can use or am I doing something wrong


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Run a log in 2nd or 3rd gear, whichever you feel safer in and floor it from 1500-6800 rpms. Right to redline, foot on the floor. Log 003, 230 and 231 and email me the CSV file. I’ll look at it and make graphs for you so you can see what’s happening more clearly.

[Nutcracker69]

Run a log in 2nd or 3rd gear, whichever you feel safer in and floor it from 1500-6800 rpms. Right to redline, foot on the floor. Log 003, 230 and 231 and email me the CSV file. I’ll look at it and make graphs for you so you can see what’s happening more clearly.

Thanks man. I really appreciate it. Will try later to do some runs and log it.


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[EvolutionArmory]

Log those 3 blocks at the same time. 1 pull. When you do the log you’ll see a box on the screen that says turbo mode. Make sure it is selected. It will give me twice as much data.

[EvolutionArmory]

Follow my instructions as best as you can with safety being the most important. You need to be able to go full throttle the whole way and if it’s not safe to do it, wait until you can do it safely. 😀

[EvolutionArmory]

None of the logs you sent me are able to be read. None of them make sense. Also, from your auto scan, you also have P0011 on top of your fuel codes. Maybe it is smarter to focus on this code first. One of the possible reasons Ross Tech lists for this cause is the fuel pump relay. You should try to replace it. It also lists the N205 cam adjuster valve as a possible cause plus cam timing as a possible cause. Maybe you have a bad cam, or need to have your cam timing done.

http://wiki.ross-tech.com/wiki/index.php/16395/P0011/000017

This car is turning out to be a big pain in the ass to diagnose. If you can get me 003, 230 and 231 on the same log and the CSV file can be read I’ll graph it but what you sent me won’t work.

Another thing you could check which might tell us about the cam timing issue is to look at block 91 at warm idle. Cam phaser should read 28 degrees. If it is off, maybe you need a cam timing service done.

[EvolutionArmory]

Your CSV file should be neat and organized like this. If it’s not, maybe make sure you have the most up to date version of VCDS installed. Beyond that, I’m not that great with PC issues.

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g309/zeddirte/62F52B65-23C4-4A8E-9413-BF871939FBAC.png (http://s59.photobucket.com/user/zeddirte/media/62F52B65-23C4-4A8E-9413-BF871939FBAC.png.html)

[Charles.waite]

Hey gents. I finally got hold of a working Ross-tech cable. I’ve done some running logs. It’s saved as a csv file. But now when I open the file in excel it’s proper gibberish. Is there another program I can use or am I doing something wrong


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I believe VCDS output is tab separated CSV you likely have to specify that. It should look like what EA posted above.

[Nutcracker69]

I believe VCDS output is tab separated CSV you likely have to specify that. It should look like what EA posted above.

Will try again when I’m home. Will also try what EA said. Will post feedback.


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[Nutcracker69]

Ok I checked block 91 at operating temp and at idle. It shows 28’. Going to check as much mechanically as I can tomorrow. If nothing then I’m putting it up for sale. It’s becoming a money pit and increasingly stressful


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[Nutcracker69]

125753

Hi gents. I’m not sure if this is right. But from the pics I’ve seen shouldn’t this cam lobe be a triangle and not oval like this.

There’s is no signs of wear on the lobe itself.
Any ideas.

Thanks


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[EvolutionArmory]

Is there anything special about the South African B7 A4?

What is your engine code? I don’t see your camshaft lobe being able to wear itself into a perfect oval but I do find it odd that you have that cam profile.

Is your car a 2.0T? Does the South African market have different motor options than the rest of the world?

[Nutcracker69]

Is there anything special about the South African B7 A4?

What is your engine code? I don’t see your camshaft lobe being able to wear itself into a perfect oval but I do find it odd that you have that cam profile.

Is your car a 2.0T? Does the South African market have different motor options than the rest of the world?

Not that I know off. It’s a bwe engine code. Even if it for the sa market I’m sure it would be more on the emissions side. This is mind boggling to me. Does the fsi and tfsi cams differ.


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[EvolutionArmory]

I’ve never seen a 2.0 FSI cam with only 2 sides. Not only is your cam lobe oval but the bevel on the side of the lobe is perfect. It was meant to be that way so it can’t be wear.

I’d say it’s not suppose to be there.

[Nutcracker69]

I’ve never seen a 2.0 FSI cam with only 2 sides. Not only is your cam lobe oval but the bevel on the side of the lobe is perfect. It was meant to be that way so it can’t be wear.

I’d say it’s not suppose to be there.

So it would be safe to say. I should go out and get a proper/correct cam! One with the triangular hpfp lobe.


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[Charles.waite]

The triangle cam lobes are for the turbo FSI motors. The oval cams are for the non-turbo motors (which we never got in North America for this engine generation). Assuming that your BWE is non-turbo 2.0 FSI?

Don’t get a turbo cam, the profile will be totally wrong for a Naturally Aspirated engine...

[EvolutionArmory]

2.0 FSI non turbo was AWA engine code.

BWE is a legit 2.0T engine code.


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[Nutcracker69]

Yip my car is definitely turbo. So I am correct in saying the monkey who owned the car before probably had cam follower failure and it destroyed his cam so he replaced it with a non turbo cam. Probably cheaper or his mechanic didnt know better. Hopefully this is the solution to my fueling problems


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[EvolutionArmory]

Make sure you have the right cylinder head on that car.

Like Charles said we didn’t get the non Turbo 2.0 FSI here so I don’t even know what differences the actual heads might have.

Make sure you have the right head and yeah buddy, that cam doesn’t belong in there. 😉

[Nutcracker69]

Make sure you have the right cylinder head on that car.

Like Charles said we didn’t get the non Turbo 2.0 FSI here so I don’t even know what differences the actual heads might have.

Make sure you have the right head and yeah buddy, that cam doesn’t belong in there. [emoji6]

Hmmm. Yes please I should actually first check that before I go an buy a turbo cam for a non turbo head. I’ll have to google the difference between the two.


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[EvolutionArmory]

You definitely get the award for not expecting that to be the issue today 🤣🤣

[EvolutionArmory]

So here’s the AWA cylinder head. You can see the oval cam like Charles said.

I think it’s safe to say you have a AWA cam in a BWE head because the exhaust manifolds are different. AWA uses studs on all fasteners where as the BWE would only use studs on top and have the compression wedge on the bottom. Unless of course you can transfer the compression wedge to an AWA head.

So at lease we know your cam is all wrong but you probably have the right head.

125774


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[Nutcracker69]

125777125778

I just checked the casting number on the head on google and it does seem to be a N/A cylinder head. Also my intake has 9 bolts and the head only has space for 8.

Looks like I was the scam of a ‘repair to sell’ job.

Fucks sake


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[Charles.waite]

Damn dude that really blows, sorry...

[Nutcracker69]

It is really a cock up.
Now 2 questions.
how could audi/vw specialists not find this out?
and can i just fit a tfsi intake cam and run it?

[Jet08]

I believe the cam journals are line bored so you can not just swap the cams over, this is probably the reason the whole head was swapped in by the previous owner.

[Nutcracker69]

just my luck[mad]

[Charles.waite]

I put a new cam in my car. Of course you can replace the cam. You can’t swap the cam cradle to a different head.

Realistically you could probably even do that, but it’s not the ideal thing to do since it could wear the cam pretty badly.

[Nutcracker69]

then thats what i going to try.
i just called a supplier now and the are quoting R35 000 ex tax for a cylinder head. equates to about $2364

[Jet08]

Yes Charles you can replace the cam, the issue is that putting a turbo cam in to a normally aspirated head is unlikely to work as the moulding for the heads are very likely different.

[Charles.waite]

Good point, and that’s entirely possible to be the case.

OP there are a boatload of heads on eBay, a used pull-off BPG/BPY/BWT from the states will be a fraction of the cost of that $2400 head you just mentioned, and will likely work fine. I could be wrong, I’m not fully aware of the differences between NA BPG/BWT and the RoW BWE but I can’t imagine it’s fundamentally different.

[Jet08]

He could also use the VW head from a BWA engine as South Africa had the same specifications as Australia.

[Nutcracker69]

thanks guys.
im going to look at a head later today. guy quoted me R10 000 ($675) to supply and fit and 3 MONTH GUARANTEE. It sounds to good to be true but lets keep fingers x its the real deal.

[Nutcracker69]

Hi guys. It’s been awhile. Just a quick update.
The car is sorted and driving as it should.
I still can’t believe the previous guy fitted the wrong head.
But all’s well now

Thanks to everyone for the help, suggestions and patience.


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[EvolutionArmory]

No man, you were great. You asked questions, people gave you suggestions and you actually followed through and we all figured it out together. That’s how it’s suppose to go.

I’m glad it all worked out for you.

[Nutcracker69]

Thanks. I appreciate it. At least it’s sorted and I can start enjoying it. Even though the repairs cost me 2/3s of purchasing price of the vehicle[emoji85]


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