Advice on set up for spirited daily S4 build

[jtravis]

A brief history.

Currently own (6 years) a B7 A4 6MT with 235,000 miles. Lot's of mechanical experience rebuilding these cars as I worked at place that specialized in saving the B7's with the blown motors. Never upgraded my car because I invested all spare income in real estate.

I'm at a point where I need a new car and can responsibly get B8.5 S4 and perform some upgrades. Based on my goals and research I still need some advice.

Goal: Very spirited daily driver. Maybe 1 or 2 track days a year, but I commute 60 miles to work on open, curvy back roads/highway in NE Ohio. Stock(ish) car, haha.

I think I need a 2013-2015 S4 Premium Plus, 6MT, Sport Diff.
I want to stay away from extra moving items like the turning headlights, etc.

I don't want Drive Select (Adaptive Suspension)
I want to avoid upgrading the SC cooling. (Unless it's extra worth it)
I don't want to change the intake or exhaust (I will gut or delete the Cats when I need to)

Upgrades I think I want: Eurocode chasis mount and sway bars. SC pulley ratio at about the 2.95 mark and the proper tune to go with it.

Questions/thoughts:
Is the steering as tight on a non adaptive car as it is in sport mode on the adaptive version?

Is changing the SC pulleys to go from the stock 2.56 ratio up to 2.95 worth it or is this something where going to 3.0-3.10 is really worth it? I did read the Life beyond Stage two thread and the recommendations for upgrading SC cooling around the 3.0 mark, which is what I'm trying to avoid and why I want to know if going to 2.95 is worth it.

If going to 2.95 is worth it, should I just change one of the pulleys or both to get to that ratio, or doesn't it matter?

Is it worth it to get into a throttle body upgrade / APR ultracharger system? If so, can upgrading this system increase hp/tq with proper tuning without having to upgrade SC cooling or intake/exhaust?

Anything I am forgetting?

Thank you in advance for input, experience.

Also, since I trust most people on here to take very good care of their cars, if you have a similar set up or know of one that want's to be sold to me, I'd be very interested.

[doughboy17]

With your mechanical experience, I would advise only changing the crank pulley to achieve the pulley ratio desired (I ended up going with a S/C pulley only because the shops around me looked at me like I had a 3rd head when I inquired about experience installing an oversized crank pulley and grinding a bit on the engine). Since you are going Stage 2, although you do not need to change out the entire intake per se, I would suggest getting at least a high flow filter to be placed in the airbox (aFe, etc.). If you are pushing the car through corners and up hills, you may notice some heat soak but additional cooling may not be necessary. My understanding is that Stage 2 on track days will experience heat soak unless you are able to move a high amount of air over the radiator.

[BlueSteW8]

You should be fine going with a lower ratio - the "gold standard" for Stage 2 can be achieved by using a 179mm LW crank pulley.
Or you can go 180-187 without much worry. I think 187 puts you at 2.99?

Some people have retained the stock HX, and piggy-backed a second one on to that.
Another alternative is to completely divorce the SC cooling loop, and go to a lower ratio of G13 to water (or 95% H20 and 5% Redline water wetter)

[jtravis]

Are the stock crank pulleys dampened? I'm just trying to gauge if going the damped route is better.

[Solarsuplex]

Are the stock crank pulleys dampened? I'm just trying to gauge if going the damped route is better.

Yes they are and it is a known failure point

[jtravis]

So I should definitely go the dampened pulley route.

[GandalfTheIbis]

With your goals, I would absolutely improve cooling.

And many go for lighteight pulleys over dampened. I don't hear any complaints from either camp aside from 1-2 fluidampr fitment issues that guys try to crucify issam over.

[GandalfTheIbis]

A brief history.
I don't want to change the intake or exhaust (I will gut or delete the Cats when I need to)

Some of us have done a swiss cheese airbox mod where you just change out the filter and drill some holes in the housing. It's more than adequate. The factory airbox is very good.

Upgrades I think I want: Eurocode chasis mount and sway bars. SC pulley ratio at about the 2.95 mark and the proper tune to go with it.

2.95 is higher than traditional stage 2, and traditional stage 2 will benefit from cooling. It sounds like you'll spend ample time in third and fourth gear which will definitely produce a lot of heat in the upper rev range

Questions/thoughts:
Is the steering as tight on a non adaptive car as it is in sport mode on the adaptive version?

Is changing the SC pulleys to go from the stock 2.56 ratio up to 2.95 worth it or is this something where going to 3.0-3.10 is really worth it? I did read the Life beyond Stage two thread and the recommendations for upgrading SC cooling around the 3.0 mark, which is what I'm trying to avoid and why I want to know if going to 2.95 is worth it.

If going to 2.95 is worth it, should I just change one of the pulleys or both to get to that ratio, or doesn't it matter?

Yes, I'm a greedy boost addicted moron... but yes. Slightly above stage 2 with cooling and some ethanol is a sweet spot imo

Is it worth it to get into a throttle body upgrade / APR ultracharger system? If so, can upgrading this system increase hp/tq with proper tuning without having to upgrade SC cooling or intake/exhaust?

For your goals, not a chance. There's lower hanging fruit and money better spent. Methanol/ethanol over the throttle body every time in my opinion.

Anything I am forgetting?

Ported supercharger... this is another place money is better spent on a low pulley ratio setup instead of a throttle body

Thank you in advance for input, experience.

Also, since I trust most people on here to take very good care of their cars, if you have a similar set up or know of one that want's to be sold to me, I'd be very interested.

Good luck

[Gberg888]

With my S4, Ive noticed on spirited drives and on a track the suspension could really use some stiffening. Its a nose heavy pig afterall. So I would recommend a spring and shock "cup kit" to fix that, the eurocode sways with Moog endlinks, CR 15 and the AK brace. The other inserted mounts like the trans mount and the other 2 I cannot recall right now are also short money, easy to install and worth it.

I personally am going dual pulley, upgraded HX and then the AK brace and I am done. I have already done everything listed above aside from the cup kit which I am waiting for my shocks to go. Just ticked over 100k on the stockers and they still seem fine but I know its just a matter of time.

Also, with all that added speed, I would def go with high temp brake fluid and some lines and pads at a minimum. If your feeling like spending some extra, the q5 brembos are cheap and use the stock rotor. Same pad as an 08 STI , so the pad options are numerous. And, the macan brake ducts are short money, so cut some holes in the brake shields and bolt those on for some added cooling.

Once you have done all that, you will have made the car faster, handle better and, slow down better... full package really.

I wouldnt do the upgraded throttle body or ultracharger... those spell bad news for your cats.

On another note, say fuck the S4, sell it and buy a 996 turbo. Thats also what I did.

[Morritse]

I feel like. You should drive a stock S4, evaluate what you want to change, THEN ask for advice. Everything is relative, you have no point of reference for us to go off of yet. Like, how are we supposed to suggest to you a pulley ratio until you know how fast stock is? Or 3.14?

[jtravis]

Great points and advice from everybody. Thank you!

A few quick notes.

1. I love the "everything" about the Audi. 4 door, sport sedan, roomy(ish), comfort(ish) and fast as you want it.
2. I've driven plenty of fast cars and S4's so I know I want more than stock but not quite race mode, I know that's a fine line to walk.
3. Seems like for simplicity of that fine line, I should stay under the 2.95 mark. Probably just "Stage 2" with a TC pulley instead of a Crank pulley so I can keep the stock dampened one... for now. haha.
4. Also seems like some sort of intake is the way to go, I'll figure that out then.
5. What is everyone's feelings on the Drive Select in this situation? I've seen the Sport Diff option without it in the past, but right now it seems that the only sport diff's I can find also have Drive Select.

[Morritse]

Great points and advice from everybody. Thank you!

A few quick notes.

1. I love the "everything" about the Audi. 4 door, sport sedan, roomy(ish), comfort(ish) and fast as you want it.
2. I've driven plenty of fast cars and S4's so I know I want more than stock but not quite race mode, I know that's a fine line to walk.
3. Seems like for simplicity of that fine line, I should stay under the 2.95 mark. Probably just "Stage 2" with a TC pulley instead of a Crank pulley so I can keep the stock dampened one... for now. haha.
4. Also seems like some sort of intake is the way to go, I'll figure that out then.
5. What is everyone's feelings on the Drive Select in this situation? I've seen the Sport Diff option without it in the past, but right now it seems that the only sport diff's I can find also have Drive Select.

The stock CP is known to fail, you should do that instead. Intake will only give you more noise

[PBKIDD24]

Having Drive select does not necessarily mean the car has the adaptive damping suspension. Drive select is simply the ability to change steering feel, shift points and sport diff aggressiveness. ADS does tie into drive select with the ability to adjust dampening as well. Someone might correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe that all B8.5 come with drive select standard. I know my car did not come with ADS but it does have drive select.

[GandalfTheIbis]

It does make more sense to do the crank pulley. I agree. It takes care of a point of failure and a mod. Stick with 179-183 if you really want to leave stock cooling. I also don't really agree that a full intake system is needed. I believe its 034 that sells the intake tube to replace the stock one with the baffling. Swapping that tube and drilling your airbox is plenty. I run that on dual pulley (3.28) to this day. I only added the afe filter recently because my OEM one was due for replacement.

As an alternative to a full cooling system you can divorce the supercharger coolant loop and add a reservoir and run water/water wetter during the warm months. That will substantially improve cooldown times after a pull.

[doughboy17]

My comment re: a free flowing air filter was more for airflow. At the Stage 2 level, there is evidence that improved breathing creates additional HP and TQ. GandalfTheIbis suggestion of a silicone intake tube will give you more S/C whine (I have one), but I don't believe it improves air flow per se.

[GandalfTheIbis]

I disagree with the evidence that an open airbox design gives more flow. I think that the evidence only applies to cars on dynos, which are not in motion. When in motion with airflow over the front of the vehicle you introduce ram air effects and improve the efficiency of the stock box...something you cannot do with an open box design. The same concept would apply for testing a heat exchanger.... the dyno data just doesn't hold real world value.

[Morritse]

I disagree with the evidence that an open airbox design gives more flow. I think that the evidence only applies to cars on dynos, which are not in motion. When in motion with airflow over the front of the vehicle you introduce ram air effects and improve the efficiency of the stock box...something you cannot do with an open box design. The same concept would apply for testing a heat exchanger.... the dyno data just doesn't hold real world value.

I thought it was pretty accepted that the best intake performance wise was the ported stock airbox with a high flow filter.

[GandalfTheIbis]

Being careful what I say, I don’t know which is the best. I just believe that companies use irrelevant data to claim that several hundred dollar aftermarket systems are better than the system you described.

In practice, I don’t really know if the system you described is better, but there’s plenty of evidence to show that it’s at least as good as the aftermarket open box systems. The best part is that an aftermarket filter and the tube from 034 cost like a combined $150. So it’s just as good as and still cheaper than any other system on the market.


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[doanut]

Being careful what I say, I don’t know which is the best. I just believe that companies use irrelevant data to claim that several hundred dollar aftermarket systems are better than the system you described.

In practice, I don’t really know if the system you described is better, but there’s plenty of evidence to show that it’s at least as good as the aftermarket open box systems. The best part is that an aftermarket filter and the tube from 034 cost like a combined $150. So it’s just as good as and still cheaper than any other system on the market.


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Tell me more about this setup? What filter?

[GandalfTheIbis]

Tube

https://www.ecstuning.com/b-034motorsport-parts/silicone-supercharger-inlet-hose/034-112-6005/



Filter

https://www.uspmotorsports.com/aFe-Power-Magnum-FLOW-OER-Air-Filter-Pro-5R-3.2L-3.0L.html


I saw a cheaper version of the tube produced by ECS too but its not what I have installed.

[midnitemass]

I thought it was pretty accepted that the best intake performance wise was the ported stock airbox with a high flow filter.


which filter is considered 'the one' to use?

[midnitemass]

edit: just saw that usp one linked. thanks, boys.

[brs2c]

May want to consider XLR8, crank. Super light, yet you can change the SC part out very cost effectively, if your goals change. https://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/816131-Excelerate-Performance-3-0T-Overdrive-Two-Piece-Crank-Pulley?highlight=Xlr8

I have Fluidampr, and it is great, but I hate how it is noticeably heavier than stock. FWIW I will probably swap to Aluminum if I bump up my ratio.

Also, I really enjoy my drivetrain inserts for spirited driving, as it noticeably improves response, and they aren’t that expensive.


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[raudiace4]

Stop at stage 1. Coilovers, rear sway bar, and update crank pulley with damped. That's all you need to avoid headaches on this platform.

[GandalfTheIbis]

Stop at stage 1. Coilovers, rear sway bar, and update crank pulley with damped. That's all you need to avoid headaches on this platform.

I mostly agree with raudi here. If you don’t want to end up going down the rabbit hole then less is more. I went straight to stage 2 and now I’m a boost addicted retard.

My car is a heavily modded dual pulley car and coilovers are still my favorite part of my build


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[raudiace4]

I mostly agree with raudi here. If you don’t want to end up going down the rabbit hole then less is more. I went straight to stage 2 and now I’m a boost addicted retard.

My car is a heavily modded dual pulley car and coilovers are still my favorite part of my build


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LOL

Yo just realized you’re from IL. Pm’d

[Morritse]

I’m a boost addicted retard.



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Lol, same.

[vdubjetta02]

Stop at stage 1. Coilovers, rear sway bar, and update crank pulley with damped. That's all you need to avoid headaches on this platform.

This man makes a great point and he is spot on with what I plan to do when I sell my avant. Stage 1, then suspension mods.

I am getting too old/ after 14 modified cars to deal with emissions anymore (IE HFC's on my past 11 cars, ECU tunes that turn readiness off, headache/money every two years to pass emissions)

*also heard going "stage 2 and beyond" can lead to catalytic failures which I am not interested in

[GandalfTheIbis]

Yup... I toasted some hi flow Cat’s after about 1000 miles of driving. And a friend recently ruined his OEM Cat’s in a stage 2 setup. Cats however are just hit or miss in the 3.0T as they fail in stock form as well.

I’ve named the best thing about the car so I may as well name the worst too. Test pipes! They do the job and they free up power but I really wish that my exhaust was quieter.


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[Morritse]

What's your setup? My catless setup is quieter than a catback AWE touring on completely stock everything else.

[dimonblr]

The numbers for me personally don't make sense post Stage 1, as far as a 'bang for your buck investment' goes. is it really worth all the extra effort?

https://live.staticflickr.com/7895/46629168005_8bfa56903e_o.jpg

[GandalfTheIbis]

The numbers for me personally don't make sense post Stage 1, as far as a 'bang for your buck investment' goes. is it really worth all the extra effort?

https://live.staticflickr.com/7895/46629168005_8bfa56903e_o.jpg

The dyno numbers are actually a really poor expression of real world performance. Going single pulley is a drastic change in daily driving experience, and going dual pulley is yet another drastic change despite what the numbers say.

I’d encourage you to look at actual dyno graphs and look at the amount of torque each is making at 3500rpm.


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[GandalfTheIbis]

What's your setup? My catless setup is quieter than a catback AWE touring on completely stock everything else.

Yeah, I’ve heard guys claim that.... but I’ve never seen any of those quieter than stock or quieter than x catback setups in person.

My setup is milltek valvesonic with the additional center resonator from the resonated exhaust. It’s very loud and bassy at 3000rpm. It’s tolerable in cabin don’t get me wrong but I wish it was better. There are throttle inputs that I avoid entirely because they sound so shitty.


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[dimonblr]

The dyno numbers are actually a really poor expression of real world performance. Going single pulley is a drastic change in daily driving experience, and going dual pulley is yet another drastic change despite what the numbers say.

I’d encourage you to look at actual dyno graphs and look at the amount of torque each is making at 3500rpm.



Not disputing that - it's a change and power is increased. A description of 'drastic' is up to personal interpretations I suppose. Even a 20HP increase could be felt through the driver seat, but at what cost is it worth it? That's also up to personal interpretations, right? Here is the reasoning for my interpretation:

How much are people spending all in for running Stage II Dual Pulley efficiently and safely? Considering the additional parts necessary to run without issues in the higher Stages becomes expensive quickly as far as I understand it. You need the tune, the pulleys, the belts, the cooling, the cats, etc, etc.. That's thousands upon thousands of dollars. What about those who don't DIY it?

I like this path - I pay a guy $900, he tinkers on a computer for a few minutes and I leave with over 100 additional HP without having to buy anything else. Now that's a good deal! [:D]

[GandalfTheIbis]

Totally, you’ve answered your own question... it’s all very subjective. I’ve easily got as much money in mods into my car as the car itself is worth. But I’ve enjoyed the modding process and have a very well balanced and high powered toy now that would be as much at home in a road course as it is on a highway.

I won’t knock it either way. If I had stopped modifying my car in 2017 then my finances would be in better shape.... or I’d have sold it and bought a different car. But I’m also happy with where I’m at.


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[Morritse]

The dyno numbers are actually a really poor expression of real world performance. Going single pulley is a drastic change in daily driving experience, and going dual pulley is yet another drastic change despite what the numbers say.

I’d encourage you to look at actual dyno graphs and look at the amount of torque each is making at 3500rpm.


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To elaborate on that, I did some analysis a while back computing area differences under torque curves of different stages of tunes.

OK here's some quick maths. If you want I can do this with any upgrade, so let me know. I think you'll be surprised how much fueling changes things.




Stage 2 contains about 25% more area under the curve than stage 1 COMPARED TO STOCK.

Stage 1 costs $1000
Stage 2 upgrade costs $250 + pulley.

So you get 25% more performance for 50% more, which is pretty good in my book.

just for kicks, stage 1 on 104 octane fuel gives you almost 38% more area than stage 1 compared to stock, and ultracharger with 104 gives you almost 250% more than stage 1 compared to stock. I'm not sure why APR dyno only show OEM going up to 6k, I know these aren't real dyno graphs, but surely they could have simulated 3rd gear...

You're going to get diminishing returns on ANY platform with tuning. It doesn't make sense not to go past stage 1 because of price to performance, if so, get a 100hp Honda for $500, way better price/performance than we will ever achieve!

In the end it comes down to how much the extra power is worth TO YOU.

[brs2c]

Not disputing that - it's a change and power is increased. A description of 'drastic' is up to personal interpretations I suppose. Even a 20HP increase could be felt through the driver seat, but at what cost is it worth it?

Granted I am not with APR, but in my experience- the Single Pulley/Stage 2 is the best bang for the buck. IMO, adding a single pulley is very noticeable. Adding the throttle body felt like less of a gain than either of the pulleys (even though APR's numbers show a different story, but they give you a higher red line with the TB)...come to think of it, if you like winding it out- you may want to consider a tuner that will increase your red line at an earlier stage.

[Morritse]

Yeah, I’ve heard guys claim that.... but I’ve never seen any of those quieter than stock or quieter than x catback setups in person.

My setup is milltek valvesonic with the additional center resonator from the resonated exhaust. It’s very loud and bassy at 3000rpm. It’s tolerable in cabin don’t get me wrong but I wish it was better. There are throttle inputs that I avoid entirely because they sound so shitty.


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It's almost impossible to compare from videos, I agree.

This is what mine is like from outside on vid, anyways.

https://youtu.be/92zbRnarRXY

[GandalfTheIbis]

It's almost impossible to compare from videos, I agree.

This is what mine is like from outside on vid, anyways.

https://youtu.be/92zbRnarRXY

It does seem pretty quiet. Is that one of those dual 11385/11386 setups?

Edit: I’m gonna stop thread jacking after this comment unless somebody has a specific question. The setup sounds nice Morritse


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[Marilius]

The dyno numbers are actually a really poor expression of real world performance. Going single pulley is a drastic change in daily driving experience, and going dual pulley is yet another drastic change despite what the numbers say.

I’d encourage you to look at actual dyno graphs and look at the amount of torque each is making at 3500rpm.


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Agreed. Though I'm all armchair, and no experience, looking at the charts, what concerns me for daily driving is the MASSIVE increases in very low end torque. 50% increase at 2000rpm for a dual pulley setup! That'll take some real care in traffic.

[Morritse]

It does seem pretty quiet. Is that one of those dual 11385/11386 setups?

Edit: I’m gonna stop thread jacking after this comment unless somebody has a specific question. The setup sounds nice Morritse


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Yea, last response here. It's gutted cats into stock down pipes into 11385 into 034 resx into stock mufflers.