B7 A4 Stock vs. GIAC Sport Chip vs GIAC Sport Chip with Full Exhaust.

[J. Moss]

Hi Everyone,


Thought you guys would find this interesting.

Front Trac B7 A4
GIAC Sport Chip (same file for both chipped runs)
Milltek 200 cell cat
Labree cat back
91 octane

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d78/J_Moss/Dynos/std_spGIAC_spGIACcatexh_tq.jpg
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d78/J_Moss/Dynos/std_GIACsp_catexhGIACsp_hponly.jpg

It seems that the new cars really like a good exhaust and cat.

83 whp at 6500! [=)]

Below information was added 2/14/2006 to answer questions that were posed.

Some questions were posed after the original post. Here they are along with some answers.

**”It also just shows that the giac file is more optimized for an exhaust than with a stock exhaust”:

There is no software adjustment to optimize for exhaust. Due to the pump limitations if you have an aggressive file with the early “B” pump and you add an exhaust it may cause a problem. The dyno charts shown are for the GIAC “Sport” chips which are the mildest and should work under most conditions and pumps.
The more aggressive files are done for most of the transverse cars, the long motored cars are being worked on now.

**GIAC’s sport chip only runs 1 psi more boost than stock.
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d78/J_Moss/Dynos/Boost_std_schip.jpg
As we can all see the boost is 200-300 mbar (3-4.2 psi) higher than stock with a 17.5psi peak.

**”Very good numbers Jeff. Out of curiousity, what happened on that stock cars dyno? Looks like the stocker lost almost 30whp from 5500rpm to 6500rpm? cheers! Mike:”

When testing began some common things were tested. Here are some plots of the same car with stock software in 3rd vs. 4rth gear.
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d78/J_Moss/Dynos/b7a4_std_3rd_vs_4rth.jpg
We tested both the stock setup and the GIAC files under the harshest conditions to give the most realistic gains.

**”Does that dyno run for stock say 134Hp??? My stock dyno baseline was 179.1Hp”
At the point shown the power was 134whp. The peak number was 167whp in 4rth gear and in 3rd gear the peak was very close to yours. The intention was to show the whole power band gained. As you can all see from the 3rd vs. 4rth gear dyno above load play a major role on power delivery on this system. With the GIAC chip the power band is noticeably and usefully extended. Peak numbers are as follows:
226whp Turbo Back with GIAC “Sport Chip”
201whp GIAC “Sport Chip” only
167whp stock

[wsy78]

Sweeeeeeeeeet! Thanks!

[J. Moss]

Originally posted by wsy78
Sweeeeeeeeeet! Thanks!


[:D]

[bhvrdr]

Very good numbers Jeff. Out of curiousity, what happened on that stock cars dyno? Looks like the stocker lost almost 30whp from 5500rpm to 6500rpm? cheers! Mike

[obviouse]

Just curious, but if all the tuners are claiming good hp gains, but incredible torque gains, why is it that your car didn't gain very much torque? Not trying to dis, just curious.

[J. Moss]

Originally posted by obviouse
Just curious, but if all the tuners are claiming good hp gains, but incredible torque gains, why is it that your car didn't gain very much torque? Not trying to dis, just curious.

Really good question.

The "Rail pump" is engine driven and has roughly half the capacity at 3000 than at 6000. The "Sport Chip" is the most mellow of all of the GIAC files with the least aggressive torque ramp. This is for cars with the early fuel pumps which have less capacity.

The higher torque chips are out for most applications that have the newer fuel pump and is being worked on for this car also.

LMK if you have any further questions.

[J. Moss]

Originally posted by bhvrdr
Very good numbers Jeff. Out of curiousity, what happened on that stock cars dyno? Looks like the stocker lost almost 30whp from 5500rpm to 6500rpm? cheers! Mike

On the fourth gear runs the drop off is greater. When the car was tested in 3rd gear the top end appeared better but torque seemed lower. Since 4rth showed lower numbers we decided to use those as a better base.

Are you going to ask me the same question on every post? Do I need to make endless charts[:D]

[bhvrdr]

Originally posted by J. Moss
On the fourth gear runs the drop off is greater. When the car was tested in 3rd gear the top end appeared better but torque seemed lower. Since 4rth showed lower numbers we decided to use those as a better base.

Are you going to ask me the same question on every post? Do I need to make endless charts[:D]

LOL...no, no, no need for endless charts, hehe.

Here's my 4th gear run...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v714/bhvrdr/StockDyno-2-4th.jpg

That's the only reason I ask. I hear ya on the cars getting plugged up the more you load them up and flow through them. These cats suck. Good seeing the results from kicking them to the curb.

BTW, good torque gain there over just the chip. That's the kind of torque most people were seeing from adding 3psi with the old 1.8t. Hopefully i'll be so lucky when I try out the Miltek hiflo as well.

cheers! Mike

[XXXX]

Can you post up a bigger picture of the power graph.

thanks

[parks853]

Originally posted by J. Moss
Really good question.

The "Rail pump" is engine driven and has roughly half the capacity at 3000 than at 6000. The "Sport Chip" is the most mellow of all of the GIAC files with the least aggressive torque ramp. This is for cars with the early fuel pumps which have less capacity.

The higher torque chips are out for most applications that have the newer fuel pump and is being worked on for this car also.

LMK if you have any further questions.

that is weird.. because when I was testing the GIAC some of the more aggresive files came out and Anders wanted to load the more aggresive files on my car before I went to the dyno. But the funny part is that I have the B pump. If these B pumps are having so much trouble then why would he want to load the more aggresive file on my car 30 minutes before I went to the dyno?

other funny thing.. my car which let me remind you has the B pump, had ass loads of torque at 3000 RPMs with the REVO software. Why is REVO not having any pump problems when they have so much low end torque?

Should I post these questions everywhere you posted this? or do you just want to answer it here?

[gods_kitchen]

Originally posted by parks853
....had ass loads of torque at 3000 RPMs with the REVO software. Why is REVO not having any pump problems when they have so much low end torque?


2nd that question

[sushi_turbo]

Interesting....

[J. Moss]

Originally posted by parks853
that is weird.. because when I was testing the GIAC some of the more aggresive files came out and Anders wanted to load the more aggresive files on my car before I went to the dyno. But the funny part is that I have the B pump. If these B pumps are having so much trouble then why would he want to load the more aggresive file on my car 30 minutes before I went to the dyno?

other funny thing.. my car which let me remind you has the B pump, had ass loads of torque at 3000 RPMs with the REVO software. Why is REVO not having any pump problems when they have so much low end torque?

Should I post these questions everywhere you posted this? or do you just want to answer it here?


Hi Parks,

I can’t speak for Anders or Evo, but I think at this time I have more test time with the pumps and files for the 2.0T
.
Can you log a couple of 3rd gear runs of 002, 206 and 115? That way we can all see what your “B” pump is doing for pressure. If you email them to me we can compare them to my data.

No need to post this everywhere, I will just have to put links to all of my answers which will be the same ;)

Take care and let us know how your dyno testing goes.

Jeff

[bhvrdr]

Fuel pressure seems to look great on both the GIAC and the Revo car. It stays near the specified 110bar.

Here's the same B pump car...

Stock Car Boost hits about 14psi

GIAC Boost hits about 15psi

Revo Boost hits about 20psi

GIAC and Revo fuel pressure look spot on.

cheers! Mike

[XXXX]

Originally posted by bhvrdr
Fuel pressure seems to look great on both the GIAC and the Revo car. It stays near the specified 110bar.

Here's the same B pump car...

Stock Car Boost hits about 14psi

GIAC Boost hits about 15psi

Revo Boost hits about 20psi

GIAC and Revo fuel pressure look spot on.

cheers! Mike
Interesting.
Are these "B" pumps "supposed" to have fuel pressure problems?

[brad65ford]

So the Revo makes more boost just from the programing?[confused]

[bhvrdr]

Originally posted by brad65ford
So the Revo makes more boost just from the programing?[confused]

The programming is what changes the boost for the most part. Yes, the stock car is programmed to request and make up to 14psi peaks. The GIAC requests and makes up to 15psi. The Revo requests and makes up to 20psi. APR requests and makes about 18.5psi. Of course programming is much more than just manipulating boost, but yeah boost is is one of the major variables manipulated. It correlates pretty directly with increases in torque. This is why the GIAC program sees only 20wtq gains when some running 18-20psi are seeing over 50wtq gains. However, it takes a lot more than just cranking up the boost. Other parameters must be kept optimal as well. cheers! Mike

[obviouse]

Maybe I missed something... did the 2005.5 cars have a different fuel pump than the 2006 cars? Because I did not get the sort of top end hp gains I was looking for with my Revo chip. It feels like I just max out fuel flow when the pedal is depressed about halfway or so.

[Saturnine]

Awesome #'s Jeff!

[bhvrdr]

Originally posted by obviouse
Maybe I missed something... did the 2005.5 cars have a different fuel pump than the 2006 cars? Because I did not get the sort of top end hp gains I was looking for with my Revo chip. It feels like I just max out fuel flow when the pedal is depressed about halfway or so.

Shouldnt be the fuel pump unless your earlier unit is failing. Both pumps use the same audi programming and have the same flow per hitachi. cheers! Mike

[Fobia]

the lower the psi, the longer the turbo will last right? and can you crank it up to 25psi? my friends vw jetta peaks at that its a 01 with apr 93

[J. Moss]

Below information was added 2/14/2006 to answer questions that were posed.

Some questions were posed after the original post. Here they are along with some answers.

**”It also just shows that the giac file is more optimized for an exhaust than with a stock exhaust”:

There is no software adjustment to optimize for exhaust. Due to the pump limitations if you have an aggressive file with the early “B” pump and you add an exhaust it may cause a problem. The dyno charts shown are for the GIAC “Sport” chips which are the mildest and should work under most conditions and pumps.
The more aggressive files are done for most of the transverse cars, the long motored cars are being worked on now.

**GIAC’s sport chip only runs 1 psi more boost than stock.
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d78/J_Moss/Dynos/Boost_std_schip.jpg
As we can all see the boost is 200-300 mbar (3-4.2 psi) higher than stock with a 17.5psi peak.

**”Very good numbers Jeff. Out of curiousity, what happened on that stock cars dyno? Looks like the stocker lost almost 30whp from 5500rpm to 6500rpm? cheers! Mike:”

When testing began some common things were tested. Here are some plots of the same car with stock software in 3rd vs. 4rth gear.
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d78/J_Moss/Dynos/b7a4_std_3rd_vs_4rth.jpg
We tested both the stock setup and the GIAC files under the harshest conditions to give the most realistic gains.

**”Does that dyno run for stock say 134Hp??? My stock dyno baseline was 179.1Hp”
At the point shown the power was 134whp. The peak number was 167whp in 4rth gear and in 3rd gear the peak was very close to yours. The intention was to show the whole power band gained. As you can all see from the 3rd vs. 4rth gear dyno above load play a major role on power delivery on this system. With the GIAC chip the power band is noticeably and usefully extended. Peak numbers are as follows:
226whp Turbo Back with GIAC “Sport Chip”
201whp GIAC “Sport Chip” only
167whp stock

[J. Moss]

Originally posted by obviouse
Just curious, but if all the tuners are claiming good hp gains, but incredible torque gains, why is it that your car didn't gain very much torque? Not trying to dis, just curious.

Good question. The "Sport Chip" is the most mild chip that GIAC offers. For the B7 A4 with the early "B" fuel pump to keep the fuel pressure in a stable range with a full exhaust the torque needed to stay at lower level.

Most of the transverse cars have "X" chips ready to go and make more torque. These require the "F" pump, especially if the car has full exhaust.

The X and FX chips are being worked on for for the long motored cars now.

Jeff

[J. Moss]

Originally posted by bhvrdr
Fuel pressure seems to look great on both the GIAC and the Revo car. It stays near the specified 110bar.

Here's the same B pump car...

Stock Car Boost hits about 14psi

GIAC Boost hits about 15psi

Revo Boost hits about 20psi

GIAC and Revo fuel pressure look spot on.

cheers! Mike

Here is a plot that shows your boost values to be incorrects. These were taken on the dyno in 4rth gear.
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d78/J_Moss/Dynos/Boost_std_schip.jpg

Do you or the guy testing have any logs showing the boost or fuel pressure?

[J. Moss]

Originally posted by Saturnine
Awesome #'s Jeff!

Thanks J.

Give me a ring sometime so we can catch up!

[bhvrdr]

Thanks for the logs. The only reason I stated 1psi more is that you can see from this B pump car that was tested both stock and with GIAC, it gained only 1psi, which would explain the gain of only 20tq to the wheels in both your car and his.

Fuel pressure seems to look great on both the GIAC and the Revo car. It stays near the specified 110bar.

Here is logs from the same B pump car tested under each condition.

All logs taken in 3rd gear in real world street conditions with the same test area utilized. These are not dyno logs that depend on dyno setup and calibration...

Stock Car Boost:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v714/bhvrdr/Jeremy-StockBoost-1.jpg

GIAC Boost:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v714/bhvrdr/GIAC-Boost-1-med.jpg

Revo Boost:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v714/bhvrdr/JP-Revo-Boost-1-med.jpg

GIAC Fuel Pressure:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v714/bhvrdr/GIAC-FuelPress-1.jpg

Revo Fuel Pressure:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v714/bhvrdr/JP-Revo-FuelP-Bpump-1.jpg



cheers! Mike

[DanFromPA]

It seems that your boost curve on 4th gear and the dyno chart on the first post does not match... Are you sure the dyno was not from the 3rd gear for the GIAC reflashed runs??????

Either way, this information is the indicative of how small the turbo is on B7 A4... Hence there's no top end.... At lease Audi introduced FSI to be able to run much leaner AFR with more timing.....

[bhvrdr]

Originally posted by DanFromPA
It seems that your boost curve on 4th gear and the dyno chart on the first post does not match... Are you sure the dyno was not from the 3rd gear for the GIAC reflashed runs??????

Either way, this information is the indicative of how small the turbo is on B7 A4... Hence there's no top end.... At lease Audi introduced FSI to be able to run much leaner AFR with more timing.....

Hi Dan,
Unfortunately the stratified mode is not available in the US. We use the homogenous mode that runs very rich at WOT to wet the cylinder and keep EGT down. The OEM programming can actually get down to 10.5:1 A/F ratio. You're definitely right about the timing though. The BTDC looks very strong up top.

cheers! Mike

[DanFromPA]

Hey Mike,

When I say "Leaner AFR", I ment it for the tuners to be able to set lower AFR than 11:1 (which is sort of conservative) at the top end...... I saw your posting and log for the stock AFR.... Your post is always informative...... I am dying to see your future post about your endevor with the high flow cat systems.......

Ciao,

Dan.

[bhvrdr]

Originally posted by DanFromPA
Hey Mike,

When I say "Leaner AFR", I ment it for the tuners to be able to set lower AFR than 11:1 (which is sort of conservative) at the top end...... I saw your posting and log for the stock AFR.... Your post is always informative...... I am dying to see your future post about your endevor with the high flow cat systems.......

Ciao,

Dan.

Oop Sorry for the misunderstanding. Yup, I hear you there. For now I dont think we have seen dangerously high EGTs at all from a slight bump there. Thanks for the words. I'm as excited as you are. It's good to see Jeff have such good results with adding the hiflow cat. I hope I can see something even a bit similar. cheers! Mike

[obviouse]

So there seem to be some conflicting opinions. Bhdrvr says that the two pumps have the same flow output and same specs. Then J. Moss is saying that "due to pump limitations" cars with early pumps may have problems when an exhaust is added.

Just trying to figure out if I have pump limitations... because thats the LAST thing a man in his prime needs...

[bhvrdr]

Hitachi rates the pumps as the same capacity but ALL these pumps have about a 5% variance that can be expected. I know of three companies now that are tuning over 300hp K04 kits on the B pump. The key is just to keep an eye on it like Moss says and just make sure your tuner is doing it right. As can be seen from fuel pressure logs posted by Mr. Moss it is easy enough to get even the F pump squirelly if not tuning correctly. Right now I can say that we found so much headroom in the APR program even when adding a freeflow exhaust and hiflow cat that I'm hoping to see an even more aggressive "motorsport" option come out. No worries if going with most reputable tuners. Like i said MTM and Sportec already are running bigger turbos and over 300hp on some of these and Abt and Oettinger are either there or on the way too. EDIT: As we know the k04 kits are making massive peak torque down at 3000rpm, unlike real "big turbos" so tuning can be done on these cars, it just takes a bit to get it right.

http://www.goapr.com/images/06F127025B_flow.gif

http://www.goapr.com/images/06F127025F_flow.gif

cheers! Mike

[J. Moss]

It seems that the pump have excess capacity at the peak horsepower area that can meet the demands of more airflow than durrently being utilyzed. But the area near peak torque is maxed out and needs to be capped to not dry out the pump.

The flow capacity of the pumps used in the FSi cars are directly connected to engine speed (they are driven by the camshaft).

So using a simple example
-You have signifigantly less fuel capacity at 3000 rpms where the stock turbo can make 20+ psi and the motor makes peak torque. (this is mainly why a program meant for a lessor pump needs to make less torque)
-At 5700-6000 where the motor is able to make peak power there is signifigantly more fuel capacity as the pump is driven at a much higher rate. A larger turbo may be able to match the delivery curve of the pump vs. rpm. better as it can move more air up top, just like the fuel flow vs rpm.

There are some drive-ability bugs that occur when the pumps drop signifigant pressure as well as a CEL if if goes far enough.

Hope that answers some questions.

[J. Moss]

Originally posted by obviouse
So there seem to be some conflicting opinions. Bhdrvr says that the two pumps have the same flow output and same specs. Then J. Moss is saying that "due to pump limitations" cars with early pumps may have problems when an exhaust is added.

Just trying to figure out if I have pump limitations... because thats the LAST thing a man in his prime needs... [:D]

What setup are you running? And do you have access to a scan tool?

[obviouse]

I'm currently running a stock 2005.5 with Revo chipping, but I've been eyeing the Milltek exhaust.

Bhdrvr, that was an excellent explanation. So let me try to rephrase this... under your rationale, my limitations have to do with airflow at high rpms? The pump can supply more fuel than can be correctly applied to the air going into the engine.

J. Moss, also a very good peek into the workings of our fuel pumps. So you're saying that my car's fuel supply is limited at low rpms because the pump's flow is directly correlated to engine speed.

You both need to remember that this is an unusual situation since I'm at high altitude. My daily driving is above 5000 feet and I have frequent trips up to 10,000 feet when skiing, which will siginificantly affect airflow.

So what I'm getting out of both of you combined is that my engine suffers from limitations at both low and high rpms... fantastic.

Seriously, though, guys... I appreciated the technical conversation. I really try to understand my engine dynamics as much as I can and every bit of information helps.

I'd still love to figure out how to tweak my car to get a little more out of it, thats all.

[blackb7]

So, J. Moss how much hp/tq do you think I will be getting if I just chipped my CVT with the sport chip no exhaust. It seems more suitable than others for a cvt because the torque curve seems to gradually rise than overload? I don't want damage my tranny in the long run, but am also looking for performance. How come on GIAC's website it says that they are looking at 18-50 hp gain at the crank. Your #'s seem much more impressive than that.

[Straz S4]

just got an email back from Mike @ AWE. He said the X-Chip for the 2.0T is dynoing more hp and torque than its competitors and they are working on getting their website updated. I cannot wait to see these numbers.

[drive]

[parks853]

I will be more interested in seeing some customers numbers. So far I dont know of anyone that has dynoed an A4 with GIAC.

[parks853]

I just checked GIAC's website and right now it states nothing about the updates, but I did receive a call from Anders stating that there were some new files coming out. He also verified that the file that was loaded in my car was not a special file for the B pump. It was the same file that would have been used if I had a F pump.

Jeff, you say there were different files. I am confused here. I trust Anders considering they are one of the premier installers of GIAC software. Do you have information that Anders does not; like, are you the spokes person for GIAC? It would be nice to see some post from the software companies. I would like to see some post from GIAC.

[A4TwoZeroT]

is the sport chip the only one available right now???
are the other softwares safe for the CVT tranny??
TIA

[parks853]

dont know anything about the CVT sorry.

I talked to the guy thursday or friday and said the new releases have been made offical, but they are not out to the public, to my knowledge. GIAC will have to let us know the release dates of the new software.

[A4TwoZeroT]

thanks .. ygpm

[lavetaaxon]

i want a B7 now!