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A1 A2 German
12-12-2018, 01:19 PM
Sold off my AEB before I could notch my AGN vc for cam gear tdc reference.

Swapped in IE cams, you can just barely see the cam notches, notches should correspond to tdc that line up with the white arrows :

http://i.imgur.com/gzFkh37.jpg

16 links between cams, both lined up to the arrows:

http://i.imgur.com/94kOtDC.jpg

All seems well till you view the tdc markings on the cam gear which seem far too forward (to the right) of were it seems like it should sit (see yellow tape as to were it should roughly read tdc, I believe). I'm generically placing the yellow tape as were I believe the vc tdc mark should be (as all pics indicate the tdc is basically at hypothetical 12 o'clock). By 12 o'clock I'm making the correction as if the motor sat flat on a stand (as motor is clocked in the engine bay). As all cam gear to vc marks are straight up and down at the 12 position.

If I dial the cam gear back to hypothetical 12 o'clock at the same time I'll be dialing back the cam marks which won't match the arrows & won't line up to tdc, which in turn places all the lobes elsewhere.

http://i.imgur.com/zltmJ7B.jpg

Keep in mind the cam shaft notches and cam gear tdc are fixed/always the same in relation to each other (due to cam gear key way).

chris164935
12-12-2018, 06:17 PM
Possible that your TDC mark placed on the valve cover is wrong. You could try installing the timing belt and spinning the motor over by hand to make sure there is no contact and then start it up. But, the best solution would be to just find another valve cover at the junkyard that you could keep on hand for reference. No need to bolt it down just the check the TDC markings. Hell, you could even cut most of it off leaving just the end with the TDC mark.

I usually just go by the camshaft timing marks though.

A1 A2 German
12-12-2018, 07:29 PM
What I'm saying is there is no tdc mark on the vc...yet 100% of all tdc vc marks sit at the 12 o'clock position, if I set this at 12 o'clock then the cam marks are off.

Blazius
12-12-2018, 08:26 PM
btw when you install cams.and tensioner and you have 16 links betweeen and the notches are almost lined up its good enough.. It will never line up until you run the car and the tensioner gets filled

A1 A2 German
12-12-2018, 11:11 PM
I'm trying to figure out what you're saying...yet the gear crank and the cam pulley will be in a permanently fixed position to each other. So regardless they'll remain in relation to each other.

It's like the keyway for the cam gear is off by 10 degrees.

If you look at other vc's marks they all sit at 12 oclock (if motor is level): https://goo.gl/images/V71MQr

Yet on my cam gear pic above, if I set the cam notches to the arrows, it places my cam gear at 1 o'clock (if motor was level). All tdc vc marks I've seen are at 12.

Another for refrence: https://goo.gl/images/eiNr1Q

thedanplasse
12-13-2018, 07:36 AM
I've wondered this on my AGV VC as well. I figured I'd just time it off the cam chain, and Crank location. But when I put my cam gear back on (with cat3658's) the cam mark looked way off which honestly made me re-think my cam install....

I'll be keeping out for a solution on this thread.

walky_talky20
12-13-2018, 09:12 AM
I guess I would talk to IE and ask them which machining is the high-precision bit that should be used for timing purposes. My guess is the front keyway will be the highest precision, whereas the rear "notch" is just used to mark which teeth to count on your chain.

Also the diameter at the notch marking is much less than at the cam gear marking. So it's really not going to be reliable for timing anyway.

chris164935
12-13-2018, 01:13 PM
I guess I would talk to IE and ask them which machining is the high-precision bit that should be used for timing purposes. My guess is the front keyway will be the highest precision, whereas the rear "notch" is just used to mark which teeth to count on your chain.

Also the diameter at the notch marking is much less than at the cam gear marking. So it's really not going to be reliable for timing anyway.
That doesn't sound right because how would he time the intake camshaft only using the valve cover TDC marking?

They only way you can know for sure which is right and wrong is to measure the lift of the camshafts to determine which marking is off. But, might be simpler to just get another used valve cover to check. I have never heard of anyone having their camshaft timing marks off with IE camshafts though.

walky_talky20
12-13-2018, 02:43 PM
That doesn't sound right because how would he time the intake camshaft only using the valve cover TDC marking?


The timing of the intake camshaft is just links of a chain. You only need to identify which tooth of the sprocket is #1 (exhaust) and which is #16 (intake). Nothing precision happening back there (as long as the sprockets are fitted to the cams correctly). However, I'd assume the IE cams are designed to be degree'd "on-the-money" for using an OEM front cam belt sprocket. Meaning the front keyway is cut exactly right for zero degrees / OEM timing. But their "notch" on the back end may or may not be accurate within a tenth of a degree or whatever. It's really just marking which tooth you're supposed to start and stop counting at. Could even be drawn on with a dot of paint or dinged with a centering punch if they were being cheap.

That said, I'd definitely call IE if things don't look as expected. I'm sure they can verify what is normal.

chris164935
12-13-2018, 03:41 PM
The timing marks are the exact spots the camshafts need to be installed at in order to be correctly timed. They are precision marked from the factory. Not just markings to count 16 chain links between. I believe the IE camshafts should already be marked correctly since the sprockets on those camshafts are pressed on. And because that was part of their gimmick, that they did not need to be timed like the CATCams camshafts needed to be.

Anyway, what I'm saying is it's less likely the timing marks on the camshafts are wrong than the timing mark he put on the valve cover is right.

A1 A2 German
12-13-2018, 04:21 PM
Good debate.

What I'm saying is there is no timing vc mark, yet when you set the cams to tdc the cam mark on the gear is too far forward sitting at hypothetically 1 o'clock (if motor was flat on a stand) opposed to sitting straight up and down being 12 o'clock like other 1.8t's.

If you see my reference pic links in post #5 you'll see cam tdc marks & tdc vc mark are straight up and down (if motor was flat on a stand).

The timing mark on my vc is yellow tape, to reference where hypothetical 12 o'clock is, to show how far to the right my cam gear is off.

chris164935
12-13-2018, 07:22 PM
It's hard to say from the pictures because of the angles. Is your motor installed in the car?
Turn the motor over by hand with the valve cover off. Go slow though because if the timing is really so far off, it's possible you'll contact the valves. But, if you're moving slow and taking it easy when turning the motor, you shouldn't cause any damage. If it doesn't make contact at all, the next step would be to start the car and see how it runs/idles, if it even can. After that you'll have to contact IE about getting the camshafts specs sheet and degreeing the camshafts or get them to fix them (if they even still mess with them)...

Blazius
12-13-2018, 07:56 PM
As I said again.. They will not line up because you swapped cams and the tensioner didnt tension the cams up properly. It has been the case everytime for me, just make sure you got 16 links between, but even if you got more, then one of the cams is gonna be off by a lot .

But as I said if you got 16 links, and exhaust cam is a bit off to left, and the intake is a bit off to the right its allright.


But to me on the pic , i count 17 links. EDIT: NVM that

On intake side the link is between the 2 sprocket protusions but on exhaust you need to count the one left of the sprocket prutusion which is gonna be offset from the arrow.

send a pic where we can see the gears and the chain. and the arrows slightly.


So it looks like its good afterall

https://i.imgur.com/Y3gYUNX.jpg

But send a pic where I can clearly see the gears and the chain and the arrows just to make sure.

A1 A2 German
12-13-2018, 11:18 PM
Exhaust cam: White arrow hits the dead center of a tooth/tooth spike. The tip of top of the tooth is perfectly aligned with the white arrow.

Intake cam: White arrow hits the cavity/dip between teeth.

I'll post pics tomorrow, pretty funky chicken getting good shots.

bw86
12-14-2018, 06:51 AM
Here's what my CVA1s looked like when I installed them.



http://i.imgur.com/yXKIu.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/mOS03.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/YV2WL.jpg

A1 A2 German
12-14-2018, 12:24 PM
From IE: " Hey there!, The possibility that the alleyway was milled wrong is very slim to impossible. As stated by other users, I would definitely get another VC. I also recommend getting a degree wheel and finding TDC that way so you can properly install the cams that way. Please let me know if you have any other questions! "

I asked which is more important, the cam shaft marks to arrows or vc mark to cam gear (as being on the mark with one, will throw off the other as the keyway keeps them in a permient fixed relation to each other).

From IE: "After looking at your picture again, I think your mark is definitely off, going off of the cam gear bolt straight up, just like in the pictures you've referenced in the AZ thread. I highly recommend getting a valve cover to just 100% make sure you're being spot on. Please let me know if you have any other questions or concerns!"

But that's my problem, say I get an oem vc & a degree wheel, to sound like a broken record, if I degree/move the cams as they sit they will no longer match the cam cap arrows, as they match up this makes the cam gear tdc mark sit far too much to the right (1'oclock if not 1:30ish) when viewed against the vc.

If I get an oem vc and dial back the cam gear to 12ish it will inturn dial back the cams counter clockwise and the cam notches will no longer match the cam cap arrows.

Random internet 1.8t pic like the others, you'll see that cam gear tdc sits at ~12 o'clock (if motor was flat on a stand):
http://i.imgur.com/nfSgDPU.jpg

As you can see I'm ~2-3 teeth off, sitting around ~1 o'clock:
http://i.imgur.com/zltmJ7B.jpg

This, is why I even bother mentioning as to whether the keyway is off, as you can't get both (at the same time).

Cybersombosis
12-14-2018, 12:40 PM
This might not have anything to do with anything but does the adjustable cam gear have anything to do with the marks being off? Do you have an OEM cam gear to install and compare with?

A1 A2 German
12-14-2018, 01:47 PM
^

Didn't think of that, which would have the same effect as the cam shaft keyway being off, is it could be good and the cam gear keyway is off.

Pretty sure I tossed the oem cam gear (to reference keyway notches vs each other, I'll check tonight). I have oem cams, I'll try holding the oem exhaust cam to roughly were it'd sit matching up to the cam bearing arrow and see where the cam shaft key way sits and compare to the IE o'clock.

PringlesInVic
12-14-2018, 02:46 PM
If the IE and OEM keyways do line up, I think you're still going to have to find an OEM VC so you can clock your cam gear properly. Then with the cam gear at it's true 12 o'clock you can add a mark to your AGN cover.

walky_talky20
12-14-2018, 03:23 PM
I feel like we are suffering from the "everything is aftermarket, I don't know what's real anymore" problem. You can't change everything at once. Lets see an OEM cam gear and an OEM valve cover on this thing.

A1 A2 German
12-14-2018, 05:17 PM
The chocolate chip cookie was discovered by accident (along with a hostess of other things ((zing!)) ).

And may of stumbled onto something...I had Tyler send me a pic of his vc timing mark, and what do we have? ~1 o'clock (when you tilt your head to make the motor level)
http://i.imgur.com/ctDqeSy.jpg

This, is not 1 o'clock, it's 12:
http://i.imgur.com/nfSgDPU.jpg

What I may stumbled on is when so many others have had, "It never ran right." issues on builds including VW's is a difference of VC's. If this is common knowledge there's multiple VAG 1.8t tdc marks vs each other that's news to me. Could explain why people have had issues in the past.

Another, 12 o'clock like all the others:
http://i.imgur.com/z4xBaaR.jpg

Blazius
12-14-2018, 10:15 PM
Right. As I said they will never line up properly , if you match up the VC mark , your exhaust mark wont match with arrow on cam cap. This is because you cannot push the cam down as much as you want, at TDC your gonna be pushing down on cylinder 2 lifters when tightening the cam down if I remember right.

If you wanna do this properly , Take a screwdriver or something long that fits into cylinder 1 plug hole, tape the top of it , take off cambelt and rotate crank very slowly , and find out TDC on clyinder 1 ,your cams are in position that no valve is open enough I am 95% sure , when the tape is moving up then starts going back down , stop it before its going back down.

Now you gonna rotate the exhaust cam until the marks are aligned like this :

https://i.imgur.com/UlTVnAH.jpg


Just make sure the exhaust cam arrow is basically where the red line is , and this will bring the intake cam mark to be more towards the middle of the mark , which is allright.

And you are done. They will never line up properly when you 1st install them , either your VC mark is going to be off or your camcap markings are gonna be off. And its better to have the cam line up than the VC mark. Just find TDC on cyl 1 as I said.

RENOxDECEPTION
12-15-2018, 12:55 AM
This, is not 1 o'clock, not even close:
http://i.imgur.com/nfSgDPU.jpg

Another, 12 o'clock like all the others:
http://i.imgur.com/z4xBaaR.jpg

Are you saying that these are different?

Blazius
12-15-2018, 01:19 AM
Are you saying that these are different?



The top pic is a 06a block sprocket, the bottom is a 058 , the marks should be the same.

chris164935
12-15-2018, 06:23 AM
Right. As I said they will never line up properly , if you match up the VC mark , your exhaust mark wont match with arrow on cam cap. This is because you cannot push the cam down as much as you want, at TDC your gonna be pushing down on cylinder 2 lifters when tightening the cam down if I remember right.
First, I want to say that you should turn the crankshaft 90 degrees from TDC to put all 4 pistons half way between TDC and BDC. This will prevent any valves from hitting the pistons when you install your camshafts. Once everything in the head is timed correctly, you can turn the crank back 90 degrees to TDC again to install the timing belt.

In regards to the issue: there's not much else to say until a valve cover with the timing mark is properly installed. That will show for sure whether the makeshift TDC mark on the AGN valve cover is off or the cam gear is off. If the cam gear is off, the fix would be to degree the camshafts. If you degree them properly and it shows that the marks at the back that align to the cam caps are off, you could just make new marks. When I degreed my camshafts that had no markings, I just used a paint marker. If degreeing shows that the marks at the back are correct and the cam gear mark is off (because of the keyway being wrong or whatever), you would just have to pull the valve cover to ensure timing is right when you do any work on the motor that requires re-timing it (timing belt job, removing/installing new cylinder head, etc.).

Blazius
12-15-2018, 06:33 AM
First, I want to say that you should turn the crankshaft 90 degrees from TDC to put all 4 pistons half way between TDC and BDC. This will prevent any valves from hitting the pistons when you install your camshafts. Once everything in the head is timed correctly, you can turn the crank back 90 degrees to TDC again to install the timing belt.

In regards to the issue: there's not much else to say until a valve cover with the timing mark is properly installed. That will show for sure whether the makeshift TDC mark on the AGN valve cover is off or the cam gear is off. If the cam gear is off, the fix would be to degree the camshafts. If you degree them properly and it shows that the marks at the back that align to the cam caps are off, you could just make new marks. When I degreed my camshafts that had no markings, I just used a paint marker. If degreeing shows that the marks at the back are correct and the cam gear mark is off (because of the keyway being wrong or whatever), you would just have to pull the valve cover to ensure timing is right when you do any work on the motor that requires re-timing it (timing belt job, removing/installing new cylinder head, etc.).

Yeah good one, that is how I did mine, but his cams /pistons are mostlly timed anyway. Iff you are in the red area with that adjustable cam gear its fine anyway , which he is , else they wouldnt make it adjustable to a degree where it would hit the piston obivously. He should just make the arrow touch the keyway like I showed in pic, and the tensioner will tighthen it up, and make sure the TDC(valve cover mark) matches the red area(but obviously close to the middle) on the adjustable wheel.

A1 A2 German
12-15-2018, 06:41 AM
Are you saying that these are different?


Quick reply, I'm saying these are the same at 12, yet mine & Tyler's are at 1.

Blazius
12-15-2018, 07:05 AM
Honestly mate, there is no reason to complicate this. Set TDC on piston 1 using a screwdriver or something long and small enough to fit in spark plug hole, with tape on it and a ruler next to it , so you can see where is the deadzone for TDC (before it starts going to down stroke again). Have 16 links between the cam marks, exhaust side being offset to left, and make the cam cap arrows touch the edges of the edges atleast of the machining mark in the sprocket and done , the tensioner will bring it closer up. Now after 100km's , set tdc at crank marking, and mark your TDC mark on the valve cover.

chris164935
12-15-2018, 12:31 PM
Quick reply, I'm saying these are the same at 12, yet mine & Tyler's are at 1.
They are all the same. There's no way to compare the different pictures since we have no idea the orientation of the motor, camera, etc. In some of the pictures, the motor appears to be installed in the car. When installed, the motor is tilted toward the passenger side. If you took a straight picture of the cam gear the TDC mark would be at about 11 o'clock. The front of the valve cover is pretty much level horizontally.


http://i.imgur.com/nfSgDPU.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/z4xBaaR.jpg
These two pictures look different because they are taken at different angles. The first picture looks like how it would look if your motor was installed in the car(tilted toward the passenger side). See how the valve cover goes straight across horizontally?
Now, looking at the second picture, the valve cover slants downward. This is either because the camera taking the picture was angled to put the TDC marking at roughly 12 o'clock or the motor was set straight vertically.

Now, your next post in here better be how you snagged a valve cover from the junkyard and you're headed home to go install it and check timing again! LOL.

chris164935
12-15-2018, 12:36 PM
Also, I want to mention that if you're running aftermarket valvetrain parts(springs, retainers, etc.), you should not need to set the timing marks off from the cam cap marks as the pressure from the chain tensioner should not be enough to overcome the springs and cause the camshafts to rotate when the tensioner is released/pressurized with oil. And, if you're running IE camshafts, I don't think you can get away with the OEM valvetrain for very long.

RENOxDECEPTION
12-15-2018, 05:12 PM
Also, I want to mention that if you're running aftermarket valvetrain parts(springs, retainers, etc.), you should not need to set the timing marks off from the cam cap marks as the pressure from the chain tensioner should not be enough to overcome the springs and cause the camshafts to rotate when the tensioner is released/pressurized with oil. And, if you're running IE camshafts, I don't think you can get away with the OEM valvetrain for very long.

Yeah I made this yesterday but deleted it because wasnít sure thatís what he meant

https://i.imgur.com/whqQvCq.jpg

A1 A2 German
12-20-2018, 06:07 PM
If I could re-title my thread it'd be: My exhaust cam timing marks aren't adding up, in and out of the car.

I appreciate all the other help yet I'm referencing a fixed non-variable to another fixed non-variable. Placing the exhaust cam's machined slot to the cam cap arrow places the key way and cam gear to point at 1 o'clock.

I walked out to my other 06A to get tdc vc marks:
http://i.imgur.com/g8INc1J.jpg

I imposed them:
http://i.imgur.com/AVfzNkf.jpg

And we get 1 o'clock, off 10 degrees:
http://i.imgur.com/w6zlHrD.jpg

So we look at the two oem photos above, those, are 12 o'clock (again, saying those are the same to each other).


If anyone want's to try please do, simply use a ruler to dead center line the middle vc nuts, and simply measure how far to the left your tdc vc mark is.

As you can see, off my other car the distance is like ~71mm, yet I set at the blue mark being ~55mm (55mm from my tdc cam gear mark to center vc nuts).
http://i.imgur.com/K8ycDAx.jpg

Blazius
12-21-2018, 03:04 AM
Allright. Here is what you are going to do. Do not go by the VC specially if you swapped them , and you also swapped the gear, and the adjustable gear middle marking is not the same as OEM. And you still havent said if its a 058 or 06 block

- Take off the belt of the cam sprocket , take off the tensioner to make it easier.
- Turn the crank about 30 degree's clockwise if you had it at TDC @ crank.

- You are going to match the exhaust mark to the arrow on the cam cap until it looks like this :
https://i.imgur.com/oVOx6PG.png

The arrow and the marking should match with the teeth of the gear like shown on picture.

- Now you are going to verify and post a picture of how far off the intake cam marking is counter clockwise or clockwise. If its off by 1cm or more in either direction you dont have 16 links between but less or more. You need to turn the camshaft in the chain seperately , CCW if its off CW, and CW if its off CCW wise. Tighthen everything down then check marking.
- When this is done, the marking should be close to the cam cap arrow, if its off a little bit clockwise, you are going to turn the exhaust cam back counter clockwise by a max of 3mm. If this done, the exhaust cam marking should still be touching the cam cap marking a tiny bit and the intake should be touching the cam cap arrow too. Should look like this roughly :

https://i.imgur.com/szOeFEL.png

- Verify 16 links, check markings again according to pics , then turn the crank back to TDC @ crankshaft mark. You gonna need somebody to hold it when you reinstall the belt and tensioner or such. Make sure you dont really turn the camshaft while reinstalling the belt.
- Drive 100km , take off VC, set TDC @ crank , if marking are good, put VC back on, and mark your TDC mark using the middle point of the adjustable cam gear for next time.

[drive]