Just why exactly do our oil pumps fail ?

[Ringsby4]

Hi all,I get it that our oil pumps are along with cf's etc one of the weak points in our 2.0's but I want to drill down to just why they fail.
Had Wolfie's pump out last year @100k miles and every thing looked hunky dory.No side play in balance shafts,no sludging etc in fact it looked like a new pump.Even though the chain and maybe the tensioner were good,I replaced both.
Incidentally,I didn't install the new pickup as we don't suffer freezing over here and it seems like a case of an ambulance at the bottom of the cliff rather than a fence at the top and as said,religious oil changes/no sludging.
Why do these pumps fail.I would have thought if the bearings that the balance shafts/pump shafts ride on developed excessive wear,the effect would be less chance of seizure ( unless shaft whip became the culprit which I doubt having so much support ) [confused]
https://i.imgur.com/iOs4HHZ.jpg

[Ringsby4]

No one knows why they fail [confused]
I don't want to know that's it's simply poor design and implementation.I've seen cases on here where seizure is the result with snapped chains end so on but why do they seize up ?
Few owners run around with no oil in their motors or did they all have blocked/partially blocked pick-ups ?

[EvolutionArmory]

You kind of answered your own question. The balance shafts seize or the chain gear fails.

[EvolutionArmory]

The reasons why are simple. Poor metalergy, poor maintenance or maybe a combo of the 2.

[Ringsby4]

The reasons why are simple. Poor metalergy, poor maintenance or maybe a combo of the 2.

Too simple an explanation but thanks.Maybe's aside,if I am doing *ultra maintenance* on my motor,my pump will last way into the millennium ? Don't think so.
What is poor metallurgy ?- bearing tolerances not great enough ?
I need a more convincing explanation as to why,we should all want to know this if we've got an ( expensive ) ticking time bomb under the hood.
Can those who've had failures maybe let me know what they surmised ( feel free to fess up if you hadn't done an oil change for 20k [rolleyes] ).............

[vce1232000]

I heard some [az]members snow [drive] drifting and cause air to be sucked up and run dry and then the shafts seize up [confused]

[Charles.waite]

My thought is poor oiling of the balance shaft journals due to oil starvation or sludge, and they seize, snapping the chain or shearing the sprocket. The oil pump sprocket is a decoupled design, its similar to a dual-mass flywheel so its not quite as bulletproof as earlier pumps which are direct driven. However it probably makes less noise or runs smoother due to that.

Or maybe head/HPFP failures cause metal in the oil which wears the oil pump which causes low pressure, then boom?

[Ringsby4]

My thought is poor oiling of the balance shaft journals due to oil starvation or sludge, and they seize, snapping the chain or shearing the sprocket. The oil pump sprocket is a decoupled design, its similar to a dual-mass flywheel so its not quite as bulletproof as earlier pumps which are direct driven. However it probably makes less noise or runs smoother due to that.

Or maybe head/HPFP failures cause metal in the oil which wears the oil pump which causes low pressure, then boom?

Good thoughts and I guess it covers all the probable causes and bad effect. I'm going to try my darndest to preserve mine in good serviceable condition.I'm just looking at factors that will help me decide Wolfies future.Everything on the car is in great condition but I had a close call with a partially blocked pickup with what could have been filter material-pulled engine,replaced parts etc
Pity those pumps are so expensive or I would have changed that over too....
I didn't notice the decoupled aspect when I swapped the chain out,maybe it's not that obvious ?

[Ringsby4]

I heard some [az]members snow [drive] drifting and cause air to be sucked up and run dry and then the shafts seize up [confused]

So maybe g-force throws oil away from pickup [confused] You'd think the pump would stabilise quickly at the end of the drift but maybe, just maybe....
I know ( and you know lol ) from my experience that these cars can drive for a little while with virtually no oil [:(]
But let's not try that again......[=(]

[oVeRdOsE]

My thought is poor oiling of the balance shaft journals due to oil starvation or sludge, and they seize, snapping the chain or shearing the sprocket. The oil pump sprocket is a decoupled design, its similar to a dual-mass flywheel so its not quite as bulletproof as earlier pumps which are direct driven. However it probably makes less noise or runs smoother due to that.

Or maybe head/HPFP failures cause metal in the oil which wears the oil pump which causes low pressure, then boom?

from what I read/saw, this is my assumption too.

What is the rotation ratio pump/crank? 2 times?

So , according to this, the preventive maintenance should be :

- magnetic oil plug
- Camfollower maintenance, inspect / change
- Oil pickup tube inspection, or upgrade with the fail safe one (the one with 2 pick up tubes)
- High grade oil, with lower intervals than the manual. (my manual says 15 000km, I do it every 8000km or so)
- seafoam in the oil every xxx xxx km
- regularly Oil level check
- less cut-off boi (high rpm), and less side ways in the snow as per VCE observation .

[A4_PimP]

...
- less cut-off boi (high rpm), and less side ways in the snow as per VCE observation .

Yeah but at that point where's the fun lol

[oVeRdOsE]

Yeah but at that point where's the fun lol

haha, yeah.

Theres a member here that burst his RS4 b7 engine because oil starvation on the track.

audi's dont like side ways.

[Brillo]

Sideways in the snow (drifting) doesn't quite explain it for me because you have to reach greater than 1 G of sideways force which can never be achieved in the snow in this or most all street machines - that's why it slides. Even if 1G were reached on dry pavement with excellent grip tires, the oil in the sump would be at an angle of about 45 degrees plus the angle of the car (a few more degrees) the oil pick up should still be in the oil if one keeps the oil level at close to the correct level. Of course, if you flipped the car on its side, that would be another story.

[A4_PimP]

haha, yeah.

Theres a member here that burst his RS4 b7 engine because oil starvation on the track.

audi's dont like side ways.

haha I kind of see the point because doing the repairs costs a lot. Then it's like if I can't put it sideways or go fast what's the point just buy a prius and call it a day lol. It's def a thin line.

[Charles.waite]

If you take care of your car, driving style should have no major effect on engine longevity or oil pump longevity.

Just use good oil and filter and change the oil regularly. I’m not sure I would bother with sea foam, most good oils have good detergent packages and should keep everything nice and clean. I highly recommend Rotella T6.

Nothing wrong with high rpms, however power drops off so sharply above 5000k that I rarely wrong out the engine as there’s no point. I used to redline my g35 all the time, that engine loved revs, but ours just make no power once the turbo falls off...

[Ringsby4]

I'm all for high frequency oil changes and there are stories about premature engine/parts failure using Audi's and others long life service intervals.If an engine was run at consistent rpm and temperature maybe its valid but that's not the real world.Long life intervals are an invitation for sludging I say.

I don't really get it about the revised oil pickup,I've seen it and know how it works though.I feel its just staving off the problem as if there's a potential blockage drama going on down there its not as if there's any warning as the upper port just takes over and the problem will still exist and eventually that port will get blocked/suck the problem in ( IIRC top port doesn't have mesh ? ) Maybe the exception is for semi frozen oil ( which probably happens hand in hand with sludging ) as when oil returns to normal temps the bottom pickup will function again.
I probably overuse the saying but " better to have a fence at the top of the cliff than an ambulance at the bottom ".......

[Theiceman]

the modified pickup is for extreme cold cond

[Brillo]

the modified pickup is for extreme cold cond

Yes, especially where the car is not driven far enough (at operating temperature) to dehydrated the oil.

[Ringsby4]

Brrrr don't have those conditions over here...well except in the half doz ski resorts and boy ppl get caught out partic. not using alpine diesel which blew a few fuel pumps apart

[Ringsby4]

the modified pickup is for extreme cold cond

Okay I figured as much,I also figured I saved myself a $100 which can go to the other things calling....

[oVeRdOsE]

the modified pickup is for extreme cold cond

maybe, but also when the mesh is full of dirt.

Ive the oem one, and last year we got a couple of -26°C drybuld (-15°F) [o_o] I might looking to upgrade it [>_<]

http://c1552172.r72.cf0.rackcdn.com/488299_x800.jpg

[Theiceman]

maybe, but also when the mesh is full of dirt.

Ive the oem one, and last year we got a couple of -26°C drybuld (-15°F) [o_o] I might looking to upgrade it [>_<]

http://c1552172.r72.cf0.rackcdn.com/488299_x800.jpg

its not designed for that .. if your mesh is full of dirt you have other issues going on that a pickup isn't going to fix.

[oVeRdOsE]

its not designed for that .. if your mesh is full of dirt you have other issues going on that a pickup isn't going to fix.

designed for what? lot of people got the mesh dirty because of dinosaur oil sludge, gasket residue, metal fills from normal/excessive wear, bad oil filter, etc.
Not every body take good care of their cars... this will avoid a big issue from a ''maybe'' smaller issue.

If the mesh is blocked, the oil will go through the valve on the side. Can't tell @ what pressure is opens, but will avoid the oil pump starvation. And hope to not pickup some big chunks.


http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k286/coolairvw/passant%20oil%20pressure%20problem/18t003.jpg

[Theiceman]

designed for what? lot of people got the mesh dirty because of dinosaur oil sludge, gasket residue, metal fills from normal/excessive wear, bad oil filter, etc.
Not every body take good care of their cars... this will avoid a big issue from a ''maybe'' smaller issue.

If the mesh is blocked, the oil will go through the valve on the side. Can't tell @ what pressure is opens, but will avoid the oil pump starvation. And hope to not pickup some big chunks.


http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k286/coolairvw/passant%20oil%20pressure%20problem/18t003.jpg

like I said , you have other issues ....

[mcpcartier]

Or maybe head/HPFP failures cause metal in the oil which wears the oil pump which causes low pressure, then boom?

this makes the most sense to me...

I've always suspected that oil pump failures are entirely after some other failure.....something like, cam follower fails, someone replaces it and whatever else needs to be changed in the head and sometime later the oil pump fails....they ask why! It appears that as long as you take care of everything else properly it'll do it's thing. Subject it to foreign debris from whatever and it implodes.

[Ringsby4]

this makes the most sense to me...

I've always suspected that oil pump failures are entirely after some other failure.....something like, cam follower fails, someone replaces it and whatever else needs to be changed in the head and sometime later the oil pump fails....they ask why! It appears that as long as you take care of everything else properly it'll do it's thing. Subject it to foreign debris from whatever and it implodes.

Yep,this is what I'm coming to ( and want to ) believe.....

[Jay-Bee]

The engine in my B7 was replaced before i bought it, dealer notes say balance shaft failure/oil starvation. Full audi service history for 120K kms before it happened, most oil changes were done around the 16K interval which is typical of the computer oil life timer.

[Charles.waite]

I’m really curious to see what sort of shape the oil pump in my current engine is in. About 40k miles ago I had really bad follower failure, and the pump piston wire down really bad and the revision B cam was so worn it needed to be replaced. There has been a noticeable whine from the engine for a long time now, at least a few years. I’m curious, when I replace the engine and rear down the current one, if the oil pump is showing signs of wear or failure.

[theguysinger]

Does a balance shaft delete of sorts (by clipping or something) help extend the life of these pumps? I haven’t had a failure but I definitely dread one.

[JorisRS6]

I had a cam follower failure. 40k miles later the oil pump went. I dont think these things are related. Oil changes were always done at 6k. I believe the tolerances on the pump parts are very tight. Maybe temperatures play a role? Expanding metal??


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[mcpcartier]

I had a cam follower failure. 40k miles later the oil pump went. I dont think these things are related. Oil changes were always done at 6k. I believe the tolerances on the pump parts are very tight. Maybe temperatures play a role? Expanding metal??


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How many miles on the pump when it gave up the ghost?

I have 224k miles on mine....I think vce has 240k miles on his. They have the ability to last. I'm in SoCal so mines never seen temps below 35F and that is rare so maybe that does help?

[vce1232000]

How many miles on the pump when it gave up the ghost?

I have 224k miles on mine....I think vce has 240k miles on his. They have the ability to last. I'm in SoCal so mines never seen temps below 35F and that is rare so maybe that does help?

I think its just [up] luck & regular oil [wrench]'s. Cam followers that fail throw microscopic metal thru the lubricating systems mite also have a play in it [confused].

[Ringsby4]

Tried to look at my pump pickup with a shitty Ebay borescope- worked for some hidden things,but not for that as its in a really awkward position.I bought better android device,next oil change I'll try have another look...

[JorisRS6]

How many miles on the pump when it gave up the ghost?

I have 224k miles on mine....I think vce has 240k miles on his. They have the ability to last. I'm in SoCal so mines never seen temps below 35F and that is rare so maybe that does help?

Just 140k miles


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[mcpcartier]

I’m really curious to see what sort of shape the oil pump in my current engine is in. About 40k miles ago I had really bad follower failure, and the pump piston wire down really bad and the revision B cam was so worn it needed to be replaced. There has been a noticeable whine from the engine for a long time now, at least a few years. I’m curious, when I replace the engine and rear down the current one, if the oil pump is showing signs of wear or failure.


I had a cam follower failure. 40k miles later the oil pump went. I dont think these things are related. Oil changes were always done at 6k. I believe the tolerances on the pump parts are very tight. Maybe temperatures play a role? Expanding metal??


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Just 140k miles


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I'd be inclined to think the failures are related. I can't recall anyone having a oil pump failure being able to confidently claim the engine hadn't been subjected to some other challenge in advance.

It'll be interesting to see what charles finds when he has time to look at his pump. 40k after a cam follower failure.....i imagine enough foreign bodies have made there way to the oil pump to slowly kill it over the miles and he's been running on borrowed time. I believe Iceman's another one who suffered a cam follower failure and took care of the head and is chugging away. If it were my car I'd be looking to move on before too many miles pile up on that oil pump.

I considered the balance shaft delete.....but convinced myself it's pointless since my cars been well maintained....and if it fails I'll deal with it, but don't expect the need to arise.

[Charles.waite]

^ agreed. Though I don’t think I’m quite on borrowed time yet, but it’s definitely not an engine I really trust anymore.

And the balance shaft delete won’t make the pump last longer, it’s just removing it’s common point of failure. If you treat the engine well and don’t have any premature wear, sludge, or internal failures, it’s likely the pump will last a long time.

[JorisRS6]

^ agreed. Though I don’t think I’m quite on borrowed time yet, but it’s definitely not an engine I really trust anymore.

And the balance shaft delete won’t make the pump last longer, it’s just removing it’s common point of failure. If you treat the engine well and don’t have any premature wear, sludge, or internal failures, it’s likely the pump will last a long time.

I actually had the inside of the block cleaned after the cam follower failure. I think it might have to do something with beating on the car.
Bank in 16 i was beating hard on the car and the low oil pressure light came on. Then in 17, beating on it again the light came on again and wouldnt go away this time. Then all kinds of noises arose and it appeared to be the pump. Both me and the previous owner took good care of the maintenance but we both beat the crap out of that a4 on the track and the road. Maybe the pump doesnt like 7k rpm and quick rpm changes after a fast shift. [emoji848]


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[theguysinger]

Well with that, is there anything outside of routine oil changes, not beating the car, and cam follower monitoring I can do to preserve it?

[Charles.waite]

Moistly just use high quality full synthetic and stay under the 10K OCI recommendation. You can beat on the car, but don't beat on it when the oil temp is cold. If you DO drive aggressively then it might be helpful to install an oil pressure/temp gauge to make sure you're not overheating the oil and causing it to shear out becaus that WILL grenade your engine eventually.

I never baby my cars, I drive them to have fun and enjoy driving. I don't often redline my car because theres no power at redline, but I often shift between 5k and 6k going WOT. I used to redine my Infiniti all the time (once it had warmed up) because it was an NA V6 that loved revs. Engines generally are built to handle that stuff. But you need to take care of them commensurate to how you treat them.

[Ringsby4]

Hi all,I get it that our oil pumps are along with cf's etc one of the weak points in our 2.0's but I want to drill down to just why they fail.
Had Wolfie's pump out last year @100k miles and every thing looked hunky dory.No side play in balance shafts,no sludging etc in fact it looked like a new pump.Even though the chain and maybe the tensioner were good,I replaced both.
Incidentally,I didn't install the new pickup as we don't suffer freezing over here and it seems like a case of an ambulance at the bottom of the cliff rather than a fence at the top and as said,religious oil changes/no sludging.
Why do these pumps fail.I would have thought if the bearings that the balance shafts/pump shafts ride on developed excessive wear,the effect would be less chance of seizure ( unless shaft whip became the culprit which I doubt having so much support ) [confused]
https://i.imgur.com/iOs4HHZ.jpg

Okay, I think we got to the bottom of this and I'm now less concerned-maybe the pump and ass. balance shafts aren't actually a weak point but by association with indisputable weak point's ,cf's for eg.become a weak link in the whole chain that pull's us along......( enjoyably [race] )
[up] for all responses !