Why are flash tunes so expensive on this platform?

[NotQuickEnough]

Is there any good reason? Over at BMW land you can get MHD flasher with a vin licence and a map pack and be flashed to stage 1 or 2 for $150. With logging module and some other extras $200.
Not sure why stage 1 flash tunes here are $1000 and up?

[tominabox1]

Is there any good reason? Over at BMW land you can get MHD flasher with a vin licence and a map pack and be flashed to stage 1 or 2 for $150. With logging module and some other extras $200.
Not sure why stage 1 flash tunes here are $1000 and up?

my guess is high development cost of cracking the Audi special sauce that keeps prying eyes out of the ECU.

[theweebabyseamus]

Don’t ask. The answers won’t make you feel any better.

[doughboy17]

Same answer I give my son when similar questions are asked, "Because people will pay that much. Supply and demand." Should I assume the BMW tunes provide similar HP/TQ increases?

Regardless, good to know that BMW tunes are more inexpensive. Something to consider if I am ever lured over to the dark side.

[jimrobbington]

Same answer I give my son when similar questions are asked, "Because people will pay that much. Supply and demand." Should I assume the BMW tunes provide similar HP/TQ increases?

Regardless, good to know that BMW tunes are more inexpensive. Something to consider if I am ever lured over to the dark side. And they provide soooo many more features. They can hijack the gauges/ display to show different things, they can control exhaust valves, Bluetooth to your phone and logging capabilities, etc

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[TheCaptain39]

Is there any good reason? Over at BMW land you can get MHD flasher with a vin licence and a map pack and be flashed to stage 1 or 2 for $150. With logging module and some other extras $200.
Not sure why stage 1 flash tunes here are $1000 and up?

Which platform were you on? The tune on my E46 m3 was around the $850 mark. JB4 isnt that cheap either for the 335 guys

[NotQuickEnough]

Which platform were you on? The tune on my E46 m3 was around the $850 mark. JB4 isnt that cheap either for the 335 guys

N54 335i. I'm talking flash tunes. JB4 is a piggy and not even that much $479 brand new. I might just go with Chipwerke Pro on the S4

[TruS4]

Yeah I came from the n54 platform too. Way more features, live gauges so no need for p3 gauges, lots of fuel options , more data logging options, list goes on. $150-450 total

[wangshuo1989]

Didn't know n54 was that cheap to tune, damn.

[AFR1485]

The S4 piggy doesn’t perform near as well as a proper flash. You get what you pay for in this case.

The Audi ECUs take a lot of resources to crack, and the market is already set. Tuners won’t get into a price war for these cars, it just doesn’t make sense.


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[RReddington]

It's ridiculous. To be honest, I don't know of any car that has more big companies that tune for it. I swear there's like 8 companies that tune for our platform...and no one is remotely inexpensive. Ridiculous.

[NotQuickEnough]

It's ridiculous. To be honest, I don't know of any car that has more big companies that tune for it. I swear there's like 8 companies that tune for our platform...and no one is remotely inexpensive. Ridiculous.

I'm sure they all came up with these prices independently too ;)

[SR7D1]

The S4 piggy doesn’t perform near as well as a proper flash. You get what you pay for in this case.

The Audi ECUs take a lot of resources to crack, and the market is already set. Tuners won’t get into a price war for these cars, it just doesn’t make sense.


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I disagree. I ran the CW for a year before I flashed the ECU and it was very good for the money. Stage 2/ single pulley. I even tracked it 4 times that year (road course)

Bought it used on our forum and when I was done with it, I resold it on the forum. Curious, did you ever run the CW?

[SteveYem]

Well, we keep paying for them, so that's what the market bears. Also (and this is a generalization), young professional with decent income can afford $50000 Audi and $1000+ tune......19 year old kid in auto tech school can afford $25000 Subaru and $300 Cobb AccessPort. Of course there are other situations - I'm just commenting based on what I see driving through the corporate park and surrounding suburbs on a daily basis.

[AFR1485]

I disagree. I ran the CW for a year before I flashed the ECU and it was very good for the money. Stage 2/ single pulley. I even tracked it 4 times that year (road course)

Bought it used on our forum and when I was done with it, I resold it on the forum. Curious, did you ever run the CW?

Not on my car, but it was on my buddies car for a while. I drove it and saw the over boost errors from it. It’s certainly a cheaper way to get more power, but when you have ~$40-$50k car it seems silly complain about the price difference between the piggy and a flash tune.

Piggy will make power, but a flash tune will perform better. The piggy is fine for the money.



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[SteveYem]

Not on my car, but it was on my buddies car for a while. I drove it and saw the over boost errors from it. It’s certainly a cheaper way to get more power, but when you have ~$40-$50k car it seems silly complain about the price difference between the piggy and a flash tune.

Piggy will make power, but a flash tune will perform better. The piggy is fine for the money.



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I used a Chipwerke S for a little while before I sold it and flashed to EPL Stage 1. In a way, the Chipwerke piggyback was a more apparent performance boost than the ECU flashed tune, because of how relatively crudely it integrates with the stock programming. In other words, I could regularly feel the Chipwerke "kick in", whereas the ECU tune feels like a much smoother torque curve.

[SR7D1]

Overboost errors? That's odd, the ECU is uncompromised and able to do everything including pull timing and boost? I logged it too and did not see any anomalies in my logs? I was running 93 octane and Stage 2 file. Maybe I had a different file than your buddy?

We both agree, it is a cheaper way to go for power.

I find it funny when people compare the cost of the car when telling others how much money they should spend on a bolt on. Some of us bought the cars used so we didn't spend that much to begin with and the less we spend on one item, the more we have leftover for other items we want.

IE: If I spent $1500 on a tune, there is nothing left for say, tires, or brakes, or intake, or whatever. But if I spent $500 on a piggy back (piggys are common all over the tuner world, in many case there are no flashes available for certain models) then I have $1000 left over for other things? So if I may, it's not really a question of being cheap, it's spending what limited funds many of us have, wisely. It's not you AFR1485, I have seen this type of "advice" given many times over the years on this Audi forum. I mean no offense, just trying to explain why some of us spend less money on certain things, that's all.

[SR7D1]

I used a Chipwerke S for a little while before I sold it and flashed to EPL Stage 1. In a way, the Chipwerke piggyback was a more apparent performance boost than the ECU flashed tune, because of how relatively crudely it integrates with the stock programming. In other words, I could regularly feel the Chipwerke "kick in", whereas the ECU tune feels like a much smoother torque curve.

Unless you have a GIAC flash, it's still not smooth! LOL. But I agree totally on the throttle tip in with the CW.

[Tony@EPL]

I generally stay out of this stuff... but Ill comment....

I remember tuning my first n54.... it took me 2-3 days to have a viable stage 1 project for resale.
I also remember tuning my first b8.... it took most of 2010-2011 to have a viable stage 1 for resale.....

[doughboy17]

I generally stay out of this stuff... but Ill comment....

I remember tuning my first n54.... it took me 2-3 days to have a viable stage 1 project for resale.
I also remember tuning my first b8.... it took most of 2010-2011 to have a viable stage 1 for resale.....

This speaks volumes. Tony, best wishes on cracking the B9 S4.

[SR7D1]

I generally stay out of this stuff... but Ill comment....

I remember tuning my first n54.... it took me 2-3 days to have a viable stage 1 project for resale.
I also remember tuning my first b8.... it took most of 2010-2011 to have a viable stage 1 for resale.....

Tony, I don't have your tune but thanks for developing an alternative for us in the consumer marketplace and helping make our cars faster!

[Tony@EPL]

This speaks volumes. Tony, best wishes on cracking the B9 S4.

Perfect example of what VAG is doing to us and why B9 tunes will be just as expensive if not MORE then the B8.... The B9 shares the same ECU as the new Ford Raptor.

Ford has left the ecu open enough that US tuners got in to the ECU in a few weeks start to finish.
VAG has lock that ECU down to the point that the car have been on US soil for over a year and not a single US tuner has released a product....

Currently there is no other manufacturer that locks their ECU's down more then VAG.

[EAFLO88]

Chipwerke “Stage 2” w/ upper pulley was the best bang for buck I did on the daily S4. On 93 octane on setting 7-1, the car came back with VERY good logs. The IAT’s were good and no issues with knock. At the price I paid for this combo, I was able to spend money on other aspects of the car to make it better without being cheap about it.

[AFR1485]

If you complain about the price then you shouldn’t buy it. I’m the king of paying less for my mods; I just wait until I find the price i want or have the money to pay full price.

You can’t be mad at a manufacturer for charging as much as they can for a product. The day their high price affects their bottom line is when they might consider dropping it. Until then everyone needs to live with it.


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[SR7D1]

If you complain about the price then you shouldn’t buy it. I’m the king of paying less for my mods; I just wait until I find the price i want or have the money to pay full price.

You can’t be mad at a manufacturer for charging as much as they can for a product. The day their high price affects their bottom line is when they might consider dropping it. Until then everyone needs to live with it.


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You're not talking to me? Right? I'm not complaining about the price of anything? That was the OP.

After all, I am running the GIAC and Stoptech BBK, not cheap items by any means. And just like you, I bought each at the right time, GIAC Black Friday sale and BBK 1 year old from a forum member. [up]

[AFR1485]

You're not talking to me? Right? I'm not complaining about the price of anything? That was the OP.

I was making two different point.


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[SR7D1]

Is there any good reason? Over at BMW land you can get MHD flasher with a vin licence and a map pack and be flashed to stage 1 or 2 for $150. With logging module and some other extras $200.
Not sure why stage 1 flash tunes here are $1000 and up?

Not sure if this helps, but maybe Tony @ EPL was able to answer your original question? Because VAG has the ECU locked down so tight? I dunno.

[AFR1485]

I generally stay out of this stuff... but Ill comment....

I remember tuning my first n54.... it took me 2-3 days to have a viable stage 1 project for resale.
I also remember tuning my first b8.... it took most of 2010-2011 to have a viable stage 1 for resale.....

I don’t pretend to understand I know what it take to crack these ECUs. I believe the price represents the work you guys put into to. These tunes aren’t open source, they are a commercial product we totally want :)


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[theswoleguy]

Perfect example of what VAG is doing to us and why B9 tunes will be just as expensive if not MORE then the B8.... The B9 shares the same ECU as the new Ford Raptor.

Ford has left the ecu open enough that US tuners got in to the ECU in a few weeks start to finish.
VAG has lock that ECU down to the point that the car have been on US soil for over a year and not a single US tuner has released a product....

Currently there is no other manufacturer that locks their ECU's down more then VAG.If only it was a simple as swapping the raptor ecu and flashing vag tune.

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[TEB]

I generally stay out of this stuff... but Ill comment....

I remember tuning my first n54.... it took me 2-3 days to have a viable stage 1 project for resale.
I also remember tuning my first b8.... it took most of 2010-2011 to have a viable stage 1 for resale.....

So, the 3.0T is locked down more than the 2.0T? The 2.0T tune seems to be half price of the 3.0T tune.....

[Tony@EPL]

So, the 3.0T is locked down more than the 2.0T? The 2.0T tune seems to be half price of the 3.0T tune.....

First - saying 2.0 vs 3.0 can be confusing... because your talking about several different ecu's, both Bosch make vs Seimens.

But honestly the simple answer is just economy of scale. VAG only used the 3.0t in Audi chassis. VAG used the 2.0 Engines in basically EVERY platform, make, model, trim they could stick it in... We do not offer 2.0t tunes, but Im sure that tuners that do sell 10 of them for every 3.0t tune they sell...

[steampunkjunker]

Not on my car, but it was on my buddies car for a while. I drove it and saw the over boost errors from it. It’s certainly a cheaper way to get more power, but when you have ~$40-$50k car it seems silly complain about the price difference between the piggy and a flash tune.

Piggy will make power, but a flash tune will perform better. The piggy is fine for the money.



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Would you spend $100 on tire valve caps because you have an expensive car. I totally don’t agree with this logic on S4 tunes. And my 2013 S4 certainly isn’t worth $60k. Next time I’d consider a piggyback unit for sure.


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[Corradobrit]

From what I understand the B9 ECU needs to communicate with other systems controllers around the chassis to function. This is why working on the ECU in isolation has been unsuccessful (so far). I have a feeling that if it hasn't happened already its not going to. Better make the most of your B8/8.5's.

[TEB]

First - saying 2.0 vs 3.0 can be confusing... because your talking about several different ecu's, both Bosch make vs Seimens.

But honestly the simple answer is just economy of scale. VAG only used the 3.0t in Audi chassis. VAG used the 2.0 Engines in basically EVERY platform, make, model, trim they could stick it in... We do not offer 2.0t tunes, but Im sure that tuners that do sell 10 of them for every 3.0t tune they sell...

I was just specifically referring to the the tunes for the engines in the B8 platform. Did Audi do something different to make the 3.0T less accessible?

just trying to remove BMW from the discussion and talk apples to apples.

[badazzstang]

Would you spend $100 on tire valve caps because you have an expensive car. I totally don’t agree with this logic on S4 tunes. And my 2013 S4 certainly isn’t worth $60k. Next time I’d consider a piggyback unit for sure.


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I agree. It blows my mind that part companies have zero push back about not putting out coupon codes and what not. My company wouldn't make as good of numbers without coupon codes flying around. ECS does a good job with putting new items on sale but I am surprise that there is not even an option for a coupon anywhere. Not even an option for one. My company is very similar to ECS as far as manufacturing our own parts, and the type of items we sell.

[switchedstance]

So, the 3.0T is locked down more than the 2.0T? The 2.0T tune seems to be half price of the 3.0T tune.....

Yeah I'm still convinced we pay a "luxury tax" on tunes. For instance, rs4 v8 tune is $699, r8 v8 tune is $1199, v10 is $1499, they use the same MED 9 ECU, so I would imagine the "cracking costs, re: development costs" are the same. Also, if "cost to crack" the ecu was the main determining factor on price, why didn't we see an increase in price on VW 2.0T tunes when they switched to the Simos 18?

[TEB]

I agree. It blows my mind that part companies have zero push back about not putting out coupon codes and what not. My company wouldn't make as good of numbers without coupon codes flying around. ECS does a good job with putting new items on sale but I am surprise that there is not even an option for a coupon anywhere. Not even an option for one. My company is very similar to ECS as far as manufacturing our own parts, and the type of items we sell.

Unitronics is 10% off right now, FWIW.

[Tony@EPL]

I was just specifically referring to the the tunes for the engines in the B8 platform. Did Audi do something different to make the 3.0T less accessible?

just trying to remove BMW from the discussion and talk apples to apples.

So was I. Audi used both a simens and bosch ecu depending on year.

Most tuners have a price difference reflecting this...

[303 Spartan]

From what I understand the B9 ECU needs to communicate with other systems controllers around the chassis to function. This is why working on the ECU in isolation has been unsuccessful (so far). I have a feeling that if it hasn't happened already its not going to. Better make the most of your B8/8.5's.

Honestly, this is what scares me about jumping into a B9. Also, as car tech continues to advance, it has me worried that aftermarket tuning for new cars in the future will become a thing of the past. And I want to be clear when I say "aftermarket tuning", because I have no doubt that as aftermarket tuning fades away, car manufacturers/dealers will gladly offer an *insert car brand here* backed 'upgraded' tune for your car for another $2,500. And those dealer installed tunes will still probably cause warranty repair issues, too.

For this reason I've come to the realization that for the first time in my car buying life, when I'm shopping for my next car I'll need to account for this and make sure to splurge a little more on the car that already has the performance output I want. Rather than planning on improving the performance afterwards.

Times, they are changing...

[AFR1485]

Would you spend $100 on tire valve caps because you have an expensive car. I totally don’t agree with this logic on S4 tunes. And my 2013 S4 certainly isn’t worth $60k. Next time I’d consider a piggyback unit for sure.


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Sorry I wasn’t clear with my “expense car point”. I paid $24k for my 2014 S4.

The expensive car refers to the higher cost of maintenance and parts. The parts for my car will be more than parts for a $25k Honda. This includes the work to create a tune for this platform. EPL already explained the work it took to crack the VAG ECU.

Everyone loves capitalism until they need to pay the price.


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[TEB]

So was I. Audi used both a simens and bosch ecu depending on year.

Most tuners have a price difference reflecting this...

Just so I understand, is one of those two ecus harder to work with than the other? And, can I assume, that whichever is harder is the same ecu mfr used in the 3.0?

[Tony@EPL]

Just so I understand, is one of those two ecus harder to work with than the other? And, can I assume, that whichever is harder is the same ecu mfr used in the 3.0?

It would be a complete over simplification to say yes since you are talking about 4-5 different ecu's.... but yes that is mostly accurate.

[NotQuickEnough]

Yeah I'm still convinced we pay a "luxury tax" on tunes. For instance, rs4 v8 tune is $699, r8 v8 tune is $1199, v10 is $1499, they use the same MED 9 ECU, so I would imagine the "cracking costs, re: development costs" are the same. Also, if "cost to crack" the ecu was the main determining factor on price, why didn't we see an increase in price on VW 2.0T tunes when they switched to the Simos 18?

This. Blows my mind some are bringing up having enough money for $60k car etc, rich people become rich and stay rich because they spend less. I'm not going to buy something just because I can afford it, it has to make sense.

Also shouldn't R&D costs have already been covered by this point in time?

Anyway props to EPL for responding to a touchy subject!

[steampunkjunker]

You mean other than the competing piggyback devices that cost 1/3 the price for stage 2?

[mavz]

This. Blows my mind some are bringing up having enough money for $60k car etc, rich people become rich and stay rich because they spend less. I'm not going to buy something just because I can afford it, it has to make sense.

Also shouldn't R&D costs have already been covered by this point in time?

Anyway props to EPL for responding to a touchy subject!

Someone already mentioned it, if you don't like it - don't pay for it as you eluded to as well.

You maximize profits as a business right? If the current market price is what they (the tuners) deemed satisfactory to their business then it doesn't matter what the reason is.

Hypothetical: If you could make 300% profit but lose 10% sales vs when you were making 200% profit would you do it?

[blackfunk]

This. Blows my mind some are bringing up having enough money for $60k car etc, rich people become rich and stay rich because they spend less. I'm not going to buy something just because I can afford it, it has to make sense.

Also shouldn't R&D costs have already been covered by this point in time?

Anyway props to EPL for responding to a touchy subject!

While I 110% agree with you we should also note that these companies have employees and need a consistent revenue stream while they work on the next platform. So in layman terms, don't expect a price reduction anytime soon.

With that said I'd like to point out the hypocracy on this forum where people constantly state 'pay to play' like it a badge of honor. Simple bits and peices are WAYYY over priced on this platform vs others. i.e exhaust, intakes, driveline mounts, carbon fiber bobbles, brake systems etc etc.

[JBalls]

I’m also from the N54 335i platform, and if my HPFP didn’t blow up four times under warranty when I used to have one back in Canada, I might’ve been back in one after relocating to Asia. Great car, when it worked.

I always figured a big part of the aftermarket mod pricing disparity was from the fact that that car was considered part of the mass market “3 Series” line-up and thus kept cheaper, as opposed to the step up line of designated “S” cars that our Audi’s are compared to perceived mass market “A” cars..


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[GandalfTheIbis]

Perception may be a bit different, but don't let it fool you. S cars are mass market cars. RS cars are not... except for some reason the RS3 feels like it is right now... but it's probably just a reflection of the economics in big cities in America.

[mavz]

Perception may be a bit different, but don't let it fool you. S cars are mass market cars. RS cars are not... except for some reason the RS3 feels like it is right now... but it's probably just a reflection of the economics in big cities in America.

Yup it's better marketing by Audi imo since S cars compete with the 35/40 BMWs. S4 sounds better than 335/340 [:D]

[ENV²]

I kind of get it now. Custom dyno tune on my V cost $650. It will cost $350 anytime after that when I add more parts and need more tune. I am not sure whether I am going to do that or just move to a different platform after this season.

[Toaster11]

Just to run along with this thread.... I went with APR stage 1 in my 2006 VW GTI. Spent $500 - $600. I was blown away by the cost for APR stage 1 for my S4. (I have not tuned it yet.) Why would I spend $1.5K on a tune when I could buy a $300 - $400 CW piggy? From what I've read on this forum, they work very well.

[switchedstance]

Just to run along with this thread.... I went with APR stage 1 in my 2006 VW GTI. Spent $500 - $600. I was blown away by the cost for APR stage 1 for my S4. (I have not tuned it yet.) Why would I spend $1.5K on a tune when I could buy a $300 - $400 CW piggy? From what I've read on this forum, they work very well.

Exactly, and combined with TD1 possibility, I went the latter route also. Not to mention you can sell your CW for easily 2/3 what you paid for it.

[Tony@EPL]

I kind of get it now. Custom dyno tune on my V cost $650. It will cost $350 anytime after that when I add more parts and need more tune. I am not sure whether I am going to do that or just move to a different platform after this season.

You bring up a very important point...and this will be a very controversial thing Im about to say.....

In most cases like this your 650 dollar tune should be LESS because MOST are produced by a tuner that PURCHASES a flashing system, map pack, flashing licensee for your vehicle and possibly even a base map to start with. Theses are all things/system/knowledge that are produced/acquired/learned in house by all major tuners on this forum.

To start "professionally" tuning certain platforms its as easy as writing a check and waiting for your package to show up.

[badazzstang]

Yeah most people dont think about the Flash license. My 11 GT was 700 for the tune. I dynoed the car myself and communicated back and forth with the tuner with revisions.

GM run on credits and cost on the credits can be 100 per credit. The C7 can take 4 credits so your already starting with 400 cost to tune someones car. Thats not labor just the cost of someone to touch the car on a tune. The last tune on eht eC7 ran nearly 1000.

I thoughly enjoy all my dealings with EPL. They have been nothing but great. Keep up the awesome work guys. Need to get with you guys for the trans tune and stage 2 soon!

[Chris@EPL]

Yeah most people dont think about the Flash license. My 11 GT was 700 for the tune. I dynoed the car myself and communicated back and forth with the tuner with revisions.

GM run on credits and cost on the credits can be 100 per credit. The C7 can take 4 credits so your already starting with 400 cost to tune someones car. Thats not labor just the cost of someone to touch the car on a tune. The last tune on eht eC7 ran nearly 1000.

I thoughly enjoy all my dealings with EPL. They have been nothing but great. Keep up the awesome work guys. Need to get with you guys for the trans tune and stage 2 soon!

LMK when you are ready.

[Ford Prefect]

Exactly, and combined with TD1 possibility, I went the latter route also. Not to mention you can sell your CW for easily 2/3 what you paid for it.

I changed from CWP stage 2 to EPL stage 2 and there is no comparison. I’m also not worried about running lean at any point.

EPL, IMHO, is the way to go with support here on the forum and flash from home. They also seem to have the best prices.


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[MSq5]

You mean other than the competing piggyback devices that cost 1/3 the price for stage 2?

I realize I am in an S4 thread. I have a Q5 3.0T (mods in my sig). I ran, or TRIED to run CW. It made good power, but was abrupt, jerky and did not play well with the 8 speed ZF we run, especially causing huge lag at random times and always on part throttle upshifts.

EPL's tune is smooth and consistent everywhere, every gear, every throttle position, not just at WOT. A lot of R&D to get that, on top of cracking the ECU and making great max power. I'm sure APR, GIAC, Unitronics, 034 and other real tuners have similar time invested in making their tunes work well for daily driving with all transmissions available for the engine.

Maybe if you have a 6MT CW should work fine, as you are controlling gear selection and shift points. CW is blind about such things.

[blackfunk]

I realize I am in an S4 thread. I have a Q5 3.0T (mods in my sig). I ran, or TRIED to run CW. It made good power, but was abrupt, jerky and did not play well with the 8 speed ZF we run, especially causing huge lag at random times and always on part throttle upshifts.

EPL's tune is smooth and consistent everywhere, every gear, every throttle position, not just at WOT. A lot of R&D to get that, on top of cracking the ECU and making great max power. I'm sure APR, GIAC, Unitronics, 034 and other real tuners have similar time invested in making their tunes work well for daily driving with all transmissions available for the engine.

Maybe if you have a 6MT CW should work fine, as you are controlling gear selection and shift points. CW is blind about such things.

Being devils advocate here - and I also run EPL. I'm not sure that the OP's question is being addressed. CW should really have no bearing on this discussion. The question is should tunes cost as much as they do on a mature platform on an engine that is EOL for all intents.

[Charles]

This. Blows my mind some are bringing up having enough money for $60k car etc, rich people become rich and stay rich because they spend less. I'm not going to buy something just because I can afford it, it has to make sense.

Also shouldn't R&D costs have already been covered by this point in time?

Anyway props to EPL for responding to a touchy subject!


Tony said it took over a year to crack open the B8 ECU. A good programmer is 100K/year (probably more...depending). How many programmers were working on it? After that, how much time did it take for them to test their tunes? How many techs handled that? What about race tunes and different fuel tunes? Updates to the code to refine it. Updates when new hardware is developed...
Then there's the overhead of running a business (granted, that's shared over the cost of all products offered), then you have the market. Fact is, people looking to tune an S4 are much more rare than the people looking to tune a N54/55 platform.

I have no doubt it cost a shit ton of money to dev a tune for this platform, and while R&D might have been recouped, there's still ongoing support that needs to be funded. I'm fine paying the price for it and I don't feel anyone it getting bent over by doing so.

[BlackJon]

Chipwerke “Stage 2” w/ upper pulley was the best bang for buck I did on the daily S4. On 93 octane on setting 7-1, the car came back with VERY good logs. The IAT’s were good and no issues with knock. At the price I paid for this combo, I was able to spend money on other aspects of the car to make it better without being cheap about it.
What's up, a quick question.. you may know or not it's cool either way. But I got a 2013 6MT S4 and I'm use the Chipwerke S which I was told was the best one to use with the 6MT. I run it to the F setting and with 93 octane (working like a dream) but I want update my pulley. Would my CW S compute to Stage 2 once I update the pulley or do I have to send it back or get a new one?

I do have roc euro intake and awe tuning touring exhaust system installed

Drive it like you stole it 😎

[ENV²]

Yeah most people dont think about the Flash license. My 11 GT was 700 for the tune. I dynoed the car myself and communicated back and forth with the tuner with revisions.

GM run on credits and cost on the credits can be 100 per credit. The C7 can take 4 credits so your already starting with 400 cost to tune someones car. Thats not labor just the cost of someone to touch the car on a tune. The last tune on eht eC7 ran nearly 1000.

I thoughly enjoy all my dealings with EPL. They have been nothing but great. Keep up the awesome work guys. Need to get with you guys for the trans tune and stage 2 soon!

So true with the GM credits piece. My tuner had to use 4 credits for mine. Its usually 3 but we needed to unlock another module so I figured he made $250 for spending hours upon hours on my car. I do not mind paying again when the time comes. He put in work.

[RCFC89]

I disagree. I ran the CW for a year before I flashed the ECU and it was very good for the money. Stage 2/ single pulley. I even tracked it 4 times that year (road course)

Bought it used on our forum and when I was done with it, I resold it on the forum. Curious, did you ever run the CW?

I agree. It has been well documented that the CW piggyback performs on par with most stage 1 tunes. Its also great for those still under factory warranty. Only way I'd go with a full tune is stage 2 or after.
What blows my mind is that people will pay thousands of dollars to tune these cars to only put a cheap plastic Chinese grill from Ebay on their car [>_<]

[Estoril4]

Just to inject some random conjecture, I'm largely unfamiliar with the BMW tuning world. When you look at hp/$ upgrades, how do these cheaper BMW flash tunes compare? Are they raising your wheel figures as much as one of our stage 1 tunes? Do they require TCU tunes as well?

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[EAFLO88]

What's up, a quick question.. you may know or not it's cool either way. But I got a 2013 6MT S4 and I'm use the Chipwerke S which I was told was the best one to use with the 6MT. I run it to the F setting and with 93 octane (working like a dream) but I want update my pulley. Would my CW S compute to Stage 2 once I update the pulley or do I have to send it back or get a new one?

I do have roc euro intake and awe tuning touring exhaust system installed

Drive it like you stole it [emoji41]

You’ll have to send it back to them to update it for the extra boost. Just hit up CW and they’ll send it back in no time.

[wangshuo1989]

Tony said it took over a year to crack open the B8 ECU. A good programmer is 100K/year (probably more...depending). How many programmers were working on it? After that, how much time did it take for them to test their tunes? How many techs handled that? What about race tunes and different fuel tunes? Updates to the code to refine it. Updates when new hardware is developed...
Then there's the overhead of running a business (granted, that's shared over the cost of all products offered), then you have the market. Fact is, people looking to tune an S4 are much more rare than the people looking to tune a N54/55 platform.

I have no doubt it cost a shit ton of money to dev a tune for this platform, and while R&D might have been recouped, there's still ongoing support that needs to be funded. I'm fine paying the price for it and I don't feel anyone it getting bent over by doing so.

100K a year is for new grads. A good engineer's salary is about 200K to 300K, at least in Seattle area. So yeah I can understand the tune cost if the firmware is very hard to crack. It takes a lot of resource (hardware), and labor to iterate and test.

[BlackJon]

You’ll have to send it back to them to update it for the extra boost. Just hit up CW and they’ll send it back in no time.
Thanks, yea I called them and they gave the the low down

Drive it like you stole it 😎

[Charles]

100K a year is for new grads. A good engineer's salary is about 200K to 300K, at least in Seattle area. So yeah I can understand the tune cost if the firmware is very hard to crack. It takes a lot of resource (hardware), and labor to iterate and test.

Yeah, I'm coming from database/.net corporate world in Florida, so yeah, good to know. I should def expand my coding resume. Unfortunately, I have zero urge to move to Seattle. Haha!

[MSq5]

Being devils advocate here - and I also run EPL. I'm not sure that the OP's question is being addressed. CW should really have no bearing on this discussion. The question is should tunes cost as much as they do on a mature platform on an engine that is EOL for all intents.

My point is that CW is cheaper because no attempt is made to provide part throttle and daily drive shifting smoothness. Good ECU tunes (and TCU tunes) take a lot of R&D time and resources to crack our complex code and not only tune for WOT power but for smoothness under all operating conditions. We also have had more than one type of ECU, and Audi keeps reflashing them with changes, making tuners have to adjust, especially those who provide flash back to stock capability.

[RReddington]

I changed from CWP stage 2 to EPL stage 2 and there is no comparison. I’m also not worried about running lean at any point.

EPL, IMHO, is the way to go with support here on the forum and flash from home. They also seem to have the best prices.


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Lol, what's so special about EPL exactly? Their prices aren't even that great if you consider getting more maps at different times and not getting it when their tunes go on sale. In Canada, Unitronic stock to DP including pullies is $2000 Canadian. Now that's a good deal, no sale needed. But then their TCU tune is a ridiculous amount for those that are DSG. There is no winning. EPL sucks if you want to go stage 2 at a different time or if you want to add a race map or something, it's ridiculously expensive if you don't do it all at once.

It's been so long since these tunes have been released. Initially, I understand the pricing being high. But after more and more cars are being tuned as the 3.0Ts get cheaper to purchase for the younger crowds, I don't see why pricing doesn't go down. Oh wait, I do..the companies aren't down to engage in pricing wars.

[RReddington]

Yeah I'm still convinced we pay a "luxury tax" on tunes. For instance, rs4 v8 tune is $699, r8 v8 tune is $1199, v10 is $1499, they use the same MED 9 ECU, so I would imagine the "cracking costs, re: development costs" are the same. Also, if "cost to crack" the ecu was the main determining factor on price, why didn't we see an increase in price on VW 2.0T tunes when they switched to the Simos 18?

Great facts pointed out.

[PopTart]

Why don't you complain about Exhaust prices? $1400 for an extra 80HP is worth it.

[mercedesinfarct]

It's cheaper than that. During a sale you can get a GIAC flash at home kit for less than $1100. The people who are shitting on these tunes better not have any sort of full catback exhaust system. That would be..you know..hypocritical.

[BozMan-S4]

I won’t comment on tuner vs tuner but share how I looked at cost. I agree, I was a little sticker shocked when I joined this B8 platform 5-6 months back. 2k-3k plus Pulley installs and necessary mods to get the most out of the tune adds up real quick. After a while of reasoning with myself and wanting to tune the car I justified it this way:
1. I believe it’s hard to find tunes for other platforms that transform the car to the level these S4’s are hitting.
2. The reliability for DD seems to be strong across all tuners while adding 100-150hp to your car and syncing the trans to match.
3. They all buy our car and do months if not years of testing.
4. If they dropped prices dramatically you’d have several thousand existing customers pissed off.
5. After putting the money up I have smiled more than 2000 times, so I can live with $1 a smile and that price only gets better as the smiles continue.

It’s hard to peel off that kind of cash considering you should do exhaust, intake and cooling to maximize the investment. My experience...as soon as I flashed the car I forgot how much I paid for the tune...zero buyers remorse.

Someone is selling a Stage 1, TCU and cable from EPL for $1200.00 right now on AZ. That’s a pretty strong deal, if I was searching now for a tune and know what I know about EPL...I’d buy it.

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[Ford Prefect]

Lol, what's so special about EPL exactly? Their prices aren't even that great if you consider getting more maps at different times and not getting it when their tunes go on sale. In Canada, Unitronic stock to DP including pullies is $2000 Canadian. Now that's a good deal, no sale needed. But then their TCU tune is a ridiculous amount for those that are DSG. There is no winning. EPL sucks if you want to go stage 2 at a different time or if you want to add a race map or something, it's ridiculously expensive if you don't do it all at once.

It's been so long since these tunes have been released. Initially, I understand the pricing being high. But after more and more cars are being tuned as the 3.0Ts get cheaper to purchase for the younger crowds, I don't see why pricing doesn't go down. Oh wait, I do..the companies aren't down to engage in pricing wars.

I didn’t say they were special, I said I thought they were the way to go for the reasons I stated. When I was looking they were the best.

Someone said it earlier, this is simple: if people stop buying tunes for the prices listed then prices will go down. That’s how it works, why would any business drop prices just because?


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[blackfunk]

My point is that CW is cheaper because no attempt is made to provide part throttle and daily drive shifting smoothness. Good ECU tunes (and TCU tunes) take a lot of R&D time and resources to crack our complex code and not only tune for WOT power but for smoothness under all operating conditions. We also have had more than one type of ECU, and Audi keeps reflashing them with changes, making tuners have to adjust, especially those who provide flash back to stock capability.

I'm saying specifically - removing CW from the discussion because it was not a part of the OP question - tunes tend to cost more on this platform than other platform - significantly more too. The comparable BMW or Merc tune is cheaper - why? I'd imagine that similar levels of development goes into both for what I'd imagine are after market pools of similar sizes (no evidence of this just flat out guessing). As I also pointed out earlier its not just tunes but hardware as well costing more. Why?

[RReddington]

I didn’t say they were special, I said I thought they were the way to go for the reasons I stated. When I was looking they were the best.

Someone said it earlier, this is simple: if people stop buying tunes for the prices listed then prices will go down. That’s how it works, why would any business drop prices just because?


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Ah sorry, read your comment wrong, thought you said they should get supported for being cheap!

Well it's simple really, all the big companies have made their return on investment. The amounts of tunes that will be sold will go up as the price of the cars go down. The margin on stage 1 tunes is nearly 100%. That means if certain companies drop their prices in order to be much more competitive, their sales will go up and most likely their profits. Certain companies won't decrease their prices, that's obvious (IE APR because they think their brand is strong enough to not warrant such a thing).

But regardless, yes, even at 1000USD for a stage 1 tune, it's amazing bang for buck. But that's not the point, OP is comparing our tunes to other cars. That's the whole point of this discussion. And again, I repeat, I feel like our platform has more tuners than any platform I've ever seen. There's literally like 8 companies that tune for our cars. That's actually ridiculous.

[RReddington]

I won’t comment on tuner vs tuner but share how I looked at cost. I agree, I was a little sticker shocked when I joined this B8 platform 5-6 months back. 2k-3k plus Pulley installs and necessary mods to get the most out of the tune adds up real quick. After a while of reasoning with myself and wanting to tune the car I justified it this way:
1. I believe it’s hard to find tunes for other platforms that transform the car to the level these S4’s are hitting.
2. The reliability for DD seems to be strong across all tuners while adding 100-150hp to your car and syncing the trans to match.
3. They all buy our car and do months if not years of testing.
4. If they dropped prices dramatically you’d have several thousand existing customers pissed off.
5. After putting the money up I have smiled more than 2000 times, so I can live with $1 a smile and that price only gets better as the smiles continue.

It’s hard to peel off that kind of cash considering you should do exhaust, intake and cooling to maximize the investment. My experience...as soon as I flashed the car I forgot how much I paid for the tune...zero buyers remorse.

Someone is selling a Stage 1, TCU and cable from EPL for $1200.00 right now on AZ. That’s a pretty strong deal, if I was searching now for a tune and know what I know about EPL...I’d buy it.

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1. There are plenty, actually. 335i/C63s/M3s/M5s/E63s etc etc
2. The TCU tune is a separate issue on its own. It's nearly $1,000 just for that, we're not even talking about that, so that's a bit irrelevant. Although plenty of cars are reliable with gaining 100hp too
3. Don't think all tuners buy the cars tbh..and again this happens with almost every tuned car
4. It's not about a dramatic decrease in price. A 20-25% decrease in price is warranted, people aren't going to be pissed off that they paid $300 more 3 years ago lol
5. I do agree that it's still worth it, but that's irrelevant to OP's post. It's about comparing our car's pricing to others.

[BozMan-S4]

Okay, he asked why are they so expensive. Not if they should be...my answer may have varied. I was just giving the exact reasons tuners gave to me. The smiles part I added of course.


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[Ford Prefect]

Ah sorry, read your comment wrong, thought you said they should get supported for being cheap!

Well it's simple really, all the big companies have made their return on investment. The amounts of tunes that will be sold will go up as the price of the cars go down. The margin on stage 1 tunes is nearly 100%. That means if certain companies drop their prices in order to be much more competitive, their sales will go up and most likely their profits. Certain companies won't decrease their prices, that's obvious (IE APR because they think their brand is strong enough to not warrant such a thing).

But regardless, yes, even at 1000USD for a stage 1 tune, it's amazing bang for buck. But that's not the point, OP is comparing our tunes to other cars. That's the whole point of this discussion. And again, I repeat, I feel like our platform has more tuners than any platform I've ever seen. There's literally like 8 companies that tune for our cars. That's actually ridiculous.

The next question is, why such a large jump in price for Stage 2, lol

That actually pains me more than stage 1. I bought this car because of the stage 1 tune.


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[RReddington]

The next question is, why such a large jump in price for Stage 2, lol

That actually pains me more than stage 1. I bought this car because of the stage 1 tune.


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Well, technically, stage 1 is 85% of the gains while a single supercharger pulley is only like 15%. But daily drivability totally changes with the throttle response + torque. I don't mind the $400 charge or so for stage 2 + pulley. I just don't agree that Stage 1 should be up to $1300!

[303 Spartan]

Just a quick comparison to contribute:

I'm only able to use my personal experience and the actual amount I paid for the below setups/tunes.

Subaru STI
Stage 1: COBB Accessport (with Stage 1 & Stage 2 maps built in) = $650 | Net gain over stock is 7% HP and 20% TQ
Stage 2: COBB Accessport ($650) + Downpipe ($550) = $1,200 | Net gains over stock are around 11% HP and 29% TQ

Audi S4 (going with EPL)
Flashing cable + Stage 1 = $999 | Net gains over stock are around 23% HP and 7% TQ
Flashing cable + SC Pulley/Belt + Stage 2 tune = $1,549 | Net gains over stock are around 27% HP and 13% TQ

This results in a 35% higher price for the S4 stage 1 tune compared to an STI Stage 1 tune. However, just focusing on the HP improvements, the S4 Stage 1 tune provides a 70% greater improvement in HP. Stage 2 for the S4 is a 22% price hike over Stage 2 for the STI. Yet, the Stage 2 tune for the S4 provides 59% greater improvement in HP.

Granted, the results are drastically different if we focus on TQ with the STI's Stage 1 TQ improvement being 186% better than the TQ improvement of the S4. With Stage 2 the STI is still has 123% better results. So take all these percentages however you'd like.


From my perspective, putting the gain % aside, there are two big additional variables that stick out, in my mind...

1) I think it's safe/fair to say that COBB sells significantly more Accessports/tunes to the STI/WRX community than EPL (or other tuners) do for the S4 community. So, assuming R&D costs have been recouped, COBB is still likely making much more from their Accessport sales than EPL, APR or any other tuner does for their tunes. The lower demand for S4 tunes likely plays a factor in these tuners needing to charge more to make a profit.

2) With the S4, you can flash these tunes and even install a SC pulley. If you have to go in for warranty work, you can quickly flash back to stock (especially with EPL) and take the car in with little to no worry about getting flagged TD1. In the Subaru world you can forget about that. Once you flash a new tune on the car the ECU logs the flash count and if the dealer sees anything other than "1" in their scans (which almost all dealers check for) then you can almost always assume you'll be in for a fight in getting any warranty work covered. Especially if it relates to the motor/transmission. And if there's an aftermarket downpipe installed, all it takes is a quick glance in the engine bay to notice and the dealer will immediately call that out to refuse to do warranty work.

3) In addition, a few of us complained about how the EPL TCU tune was performing for us and preferred something different. Tony @ EPL was quick to listen to our grips and even our recommendations. Then he produced a second TCU option for us, free of charge. Good luck getting COBB or any other tuner in the Subaru world to do that. And even if they did provide a second option, you can bet that they'd definitely charge you extra for it.


For me, that #2 bullet alone is enough for me to justify paying a premium for the S4 tunes. #3 is just icing on the cake.

[steampunkjunker]

Lower prices would increase demand and operational and R&D costs could be amortized over the larger number of units sold. I’m positive the price elasticity is very high on tunes. This is what happens when engineers run companies. Doing it again I’d do a piggyback.


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[theweebabyseamus]

Just a quick comparison to contribute:

I'm only able to use my personal experience and the actual amount I paid for the below setups/tunes.

Subaru STI
Stage 1: COBB Accessport (with Stage 1 & Stage 2 maps built in) = $650 | Net gain over stock is 7% HP and 20% TQ
Stage 2: COBB Accessport ($650) + Downpipe ($550) = $1,200 | Net gains over stock are around 11% HP and 29% TQ

Audi S4 (going with EPL)
Flashing cable + Stage 1 = $999 | Net gains over stock are around 23% HP and 7% TQ
Flashing cable + SC Pulley/Belt + Stage 2 tune = $1,549 | Net gains over stock are around 27% HP and 13% TQ

This results in a 35% higher price for the S4 stage 1 tune compared to an STI Stage 1 tune. However, just focusing on the HP improvements, the S4 Stage 1 tune provides a 70% greater improvement in HP. Stage 2 for the S4 is a 22% price hike over Stage 2 for the STI. Yet, the Stage 2 tune for the S4 provides 59% greater improvement in HP.

Granted, the results are drastically different if we focus on TQ with the STI's Stage 1 TQ improvement being 186% better than the TQ improvement of the S4. With Stage 2 the STI is still has 123% better results. So take all these percentages however you'd like.


From my perspective, putting the gain % aside, there are two big additional variables that stick out, in my mind...

1) I think it's safe/fair to say that COBB sells significantly more Accessports/tunes to the STI/WRX community than EPL (or other tuners) do for the S4 community. So, assuming R&D costs have been recouped, COBB is still likely making much more from their Accessport sales than EPL, APR or any other tuner does for their tunes. The lower demand for S4 tunes likely plays a factor in these tuners needing to charge more to make a profit.

2) With the S4, you can flash these tunes and even install a SC pulley. If you have to go in for warranty work, you can quickly flash back to stock (especially with EPL) and take the car in with little to no worry about getting flagged TD1. In the Subaru world you can forget about that. Once you flash a new tune on the car the ECU logs the flash count and if the dealer sees anything other than "1" in their scans (which almost all dealers check for) then you can almost always assume you'll be in for a fight in getting any warranty work covered. Especially if it relates to the motor/transmission. And if there's an aftermarket downpipe installed, all it takes is a quick glance in the engine bay to notice and the dealer will immediately call that out to refuse to do warranty work.

3) In addition, a few of us complained about how the EPL TCU tune was performing for us and preferred something different. Tony @ EPL was quick to listen to our grips and even our recommendations. Then he produced a second TCU option for us, free of charge. Good luck getting COBB or any other tuner in the Subaru world to do that. And even if they did provide a second option, you can bet that they'd definitely charge you extra for it.


For me, that #2 bullet alone is enough for me to justify paying a premium for the S4 tunes. #3 is just icing on the cake.

While I agree with your points regarding Tony, #2 has happened on S4's as well. Audi dealers check the flash count just the same as Subaru does.