C7/7.5 How to Launch

[cobrario]

For over a year now several of us have been in close correspondence with one another collaborating and experimenting the best launch techniques for the RS7 (Mickey has been using some of those same techniques for the S6 as well but modifying slightly because the DSG is much different than the ZF)
I'll go in to some detail about what I do and Mick, Don and maybe Kevin can all chime in with what nuances they may add to their launch.

1-We've found that despite conventional wisdom the best 60' happens with the car in dynamic vs comfort- I don't want to go in to great depth explaining why we've come to this conclusion and arguing technical points, suffice to say that collectively our group has over 200 passes and hold the Stage 1 and Stage 2 fastest stock turbo 60' and 1/4 mile times.

2- a)there are two methods we've tried, both very successful, in loading the car to launch. The first we'll call the the hard launch- essentially you stand on the brake, hammer the throttle and bring the car up on boost and on the converter to about 2600-2800 rpm, release the brake and away you go. Positives: this method has given the very best 60' for me at stage 1 of 1.55 and Kevin at 1.51 on stage 2 (both on 104 fuel and file). Negatives: it breaks stuff, we've had 1 diff and 2 axles in our group alone using this technique- I will not be using it ever again because stage 2-104 is just too brutal and using that method is a ticking time bomb for your drive line.
b) the second is similar to what the B8 guys call the "upswing approach". This method still requires standing on the brake hard - we’ve found any “creeping” or “lurching” will almost certainly prevent Amax shifting. Once on the brake push the throttle, not matting it, but enough to bring the RPM’s up and as the tach needle swings up you release the brake and stand on the gas, where you release is up to how good the surface is but usually I’m releasing the brake between 2200-2600 RPM’s. Positives: much easier on drive-line components as you’re not totally loading up the converter and boost levels at launch are not as high. Negatives: slightly lower 60’ but Don and I have found the difference isn’t dramatic- maybe .02-.03.
3- Suspension setup- the above may not be completely new to some but I’m guessing the ride height we’re using is. If you’re serious about the track and have air suspension you need to get a Cete module. The module’s adjustability has been invaluable for experimenting with various ride heights and launch techniques. Through trial and error we’ve found that lowering the car helps 60’ and appears to lessen wheel hop and the damage that comes from it. Currently, Don and I are actually “raking” our cars meaning we’re lowering the front considerably more than the rear- I personally run at -30mm front / -13mm rear and I know Don does even more than that. This keeps the front tires in contact with the track better which we feel assists in forward bite vs having all the weight transfer to the back which is less optimal on street tires.
4- Lastly, air pressures. Generally speaking, when temps are warmer we’re lowering air to 34-35 psi, which seems to work very well, when it’s cooler out keeping recommended pressures works best, 39-42. I will also mention it’s our opinion, based on our having little to no success when ambient temps are below 60-65 degrees, I can’t speak for a Stage 3 S6/7 but the torque output on a stage 2 RS on 104 is next to impossible to get hooked on cold pavement, no matter how good the prep.

I'm sure Don, Mickey and hope the other regular track guys, especially those with S cars, will have some more input on what they do that works as well. Feel free to reply with questions or your input as we wanted to post this thread to help us all go faster more safely and with less damage to our beloved rigs.

Carl

[OlyS6]

Carl,

Thank you!

I'd love to hear more from the Stage 3 S6 guys as well, as I plan on getting out to the track with my car for the first time ever this spring. As a newbie track-goer, I'll need all the help I can get to improve my odds of not breaking stuff!

[Ze_Nardo6]

Great thread Doc. Here is my take from the 20+ runs at stage 3 levels thus far

I'm not totally throwing in the towel just yet on using launch control at this power level, but it did not bode well thus far. I tried a 3k launch which came off the line well but bogged during the 1-2 upshift. I then tried the 5k launch which was way too much in every way. Massive spin and wheelhop and new underwear required (will never do that again).

I noticed when I wasn't using launch control and was more so "loading" the car from idle (more of an upswing method as you alluded to), the car would come out of the hole nicely and without any tire squeal or spin. The problem with this method was that the car kept engaging in LC and I couldn't "load" the car as I wanted to...my solution was to keep the traction control on as I knew this would prevent activating LC. There is a sweet spot with this loading method that I am still trying to dial in (getting close). I cut a few 1.61 and 1.63 60' times using this method on street tires, which I think are in the top tier for stage 3 S car 60' times. Really excited to give it another go this month back home.

Here is a video of me loading the launch as described above. Not my quickest run but one of my better 60' times. As you can see, no drama off the line and it just goes.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0JaShJTkSE

[Ze_Nardo6]

I'd love to hear more from the Stage 3 S6 guys as well, as I plan on getting out to the track with my car for the first time ever this spring. As a newbie track-goer, I'll need all the help I can get to improve my odds of not breaking stuff!

To pay you back for your help with the steering wheel, I'll give you all the info/guidance I have before your track visit. I am hitting the track again later this month

[3rdBNCC]

Well written Doc. You have described the techniques quite well. I would add, it is important to understand that the pressure our drive trains are under at launch is massive. Minimizing the strain is critical. Holding the car back too long at launch will eventually do damage. I typically wait until the tree is nearly half way to green before initiating the upswing technique. I almost exclusively use this method because I know it has less strain on the drive train.

Doc hits on weather and it is also a very critical factor. Temps below 70 almost mandate an upswing approach and often I still can't hook. Great weather for a turbo car but not so great to hook. Temps above 70 are exactly the opposite, good for hooking up but bad for heat soak and cutting timing. In temps above 80 I will try some fully loaded launches after a few successful upswing launches.

Wheel hop is the killer for these cars. My advice is to get out of the throttle immediately when you experience it. The weakest point of the drive train is the axles (thankfully) and they cannot take wheel hop too many times.

Lastly, to be more specific on my suspension. I too have the CETE module and basically run with an inch gap in the rear (allowing for a good squat) and fully tucked in the front. When I say tucked I mean, to the point that I cannot even turn at the end of the track and have to put the car in Comfort mode (severe camber lol). Doc should post the photo of one of his launches showing just how much lift these cars get and subsequently reversing the camber leaving less tire tread on the road. With my car setup the way I have it, the lift is less dramatic and the car actually rides down the track perfectly level. This relieves the axle stress that most have under maximum load.

I will post a video where you can clearly see what I am talking about. To me, having this type control of the suspension with the module is a must if you plan to track your car and more importantly limit damage.

[OlyS6]

To pay you back for your help with the steering wheel, I'll give you all the info/guidance I have before your track visit. I am hitting the track again later this month


Thanks! I'll take all the help I can get!

[cobrario]

. Doc should post the photo of one of his launches showing just how much lift these cars get and subsequently reversing the camber leaving less tire tread on the road.


even with the suspension raked this is a pic of my last outing late October

http://www.audizine.com/gallery/data/500/medium/IMG_25262.JPG


Video of my dash cam during upswing (this was stage 1)


https://youtu.be/_cgf4-bLwvM

[cobrario]

I will post a video where you can clearly see what I am talking about. To me, having this type control of the suspension with the module is a must if you plan to track your car and more importantly limit damage.


https://drive.google.com/file/d/1eL1k55yDoif9L-2hqdw9wMHUWBi0ICxx/view?usp=sharing

[3rdBNCC]

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1eL1k55yDoif9L-2hqdw9wMHUWBi0ICxx/view?usp=sharing

Thanks Doc. This is a run from Audi vs the World 1.2 this past weekend. 10.3x @ 133 in 90 degree temps. As Doc said I drop the front of my car considerably lower than everyone else. Partly be cause I can with the rims I have verses the wider rims others are using. Watching the stance as I drove by the camera, you can see the set up I described above. At launch and throughout the run, you can see the car remains very level and planted.

[lnferno]

Awesome thread and content!

I know I'm the minority here - being at 7000' altitude - I'm way down on power compared to you guys at sea-level. This is relevant because while these best practices you guys detail out are tried and true, some of this stuff doesn't work at altitude. For example, in my RS7, the "hard launch- essentially you stand on the brake, hammer the throttle and bring the car up on boost and on the converter to about 2600-2800 rpm, release the brake and away you go" technique totally does not work for me. It actually bogs the car down big-time.


b) the second is similar to what the B8 guys call the "upswing approach". This method still requires standing on the brake hard - we’ve found any “creeping” or “lurching” will almost certainly prevent Amax shifting. Once on the brake push the throttle, not matting it, but enough to bring the RPM’s up and as the tach needle swings up you release the brake and stand on the gas, where you release is up to how good the surface is but usually I’m releasing the brake between 2200-2600 RPM’s. Positives: much easier on drive-line components as you’re not totally loading up the converter and boost levels at launch are not as high. Negatives: slightly lower 60’ but Don and I have found the difference isn’t dramatic- maybe .02-.03.

This is what I've been doing, although I think I need to work on how quickly I build the RPMs and then do the quick release brake and floor it method. I've only been able to get 1.68 60', but again, I'm more than a mile high altitude, way down on power, and that was only 1 pass that I was able to get at the track (don't ask). From the few RS7 owners that I've spoken with, high 1.6x 60's is the best anyone has gotten up here at Colorado altitude. 1.5 60's just aren't in the cards for us up here.

I ordered Dragy which will be here tomorrow. Although I'm currently on my winter wheels/tires, so I'm not sure how relevant any testing will be on my winter setup. The main thing I want to use Dragy for us to improve my 60'. I guess it will be interesting to see 0-60 as well, but around here, it's going to be hard finding someplace flat with enough runway to do anything more than that. I also ordered the Cete air suspension module. I'm definitely going to take the suggestion on the rake setup. Can't wait to take my car back to the track this season. If I can get to at least a 1.65, I'll be happy, but ideally a low 1.6x is my ultimate goal.

[low-profile]

I have nothing constructive to add, however...


...I did find a video of Doc giving some pointers at a local HPDE event. [:)]





https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LR6eS2NWf4

Good info! [up]

[p3u]

even with the suspension raked this is a pic of my last outing late October

http://www.audizine.com/gallery/data/500/medium/IMG_25262.JPG


Love this photo. So beastly off the line!

[elptxjc]

For a stock S6 at 3,800' of altitude, is it worth abusing the drivetrain with launch control, or just stomp on the gas pedal and call it a day? The method I use (not yet on this car) when I need to take off quickly from a stoplight or something is to just set the parking brake, rest my foot on the gas, and just go when needed. Even my N/A F6 PDK Porsche took off pretty quickly like that, and basically no abuse. Reaction is the quickest, so probably similar to launch control in real time, no? I don't like abusing my vehicles, so haven't tried L/C on any of them (not even the GTR), but just curious if it's really needed on an engine with lots of torque down low. Thx.

[DGVR6]

For a stock S6 at 3,800' of altitude, is it worth abusing the drivetrain with launch control, or just stomp on the gas pedal and call it a day? The method I use (not yet on this car) when I need to take off quickly from a stoplight or something is to just set the parking brake, rest my foot on the gas, and just go when needed. Even my N/A F6 PDK Porsche took off pretty quickly like that, and basically no abuse. Reaction is the quickest, so probably similar to launch control in real time, no? I don't like abusing my vehicles, so haven't tried L/C on any of them (not even the GTR), but just curious if it's really needed on an engine with lots of torque down low. Thx.

With stock tune, you’d barely even break traction with LC engaged lol. It’s so smooth off the line, Audi doesn’t want you to come back with broken stuff on their dime. Rather just stomp it then waste a launch count lol.


I guess with a Stage 2 car, if you want to launch the car right with minimal stress, make sure you’re on the grove, stomp brakes then mash n go, 1.58. I only really play with rear tire pressure, car is set on comfort but it does have rake.

My rear is a 40 profile so it’s able to flex a bit more than a 35 which contributes to a larger surface patch, expecially at the 34 psi area. Everything said is on point though, not much to add.

[Ze_Nardo6]

For a stock S6 at 3,800' of altitude, is it worth abusing the drivetrain with launch control, or just stomp on the gas pedal and call it a day? The method I use (not yet on this car) when I need to take off quickly from a stoplight or something is to just set the parking brake, rest my foot on the gas, and just go when needed. Even my N/A F6 PDK Porsche took off pretty quickly like that, and basically no abuse. Reaction is the quickest, so probably similar to launch control in real time, no? I don't like abusing my vehicles, so haven't tried L/C on any of them (not even the GTR), but just curious if it's really needed on an engine with lots of torque down low. Thx.

Parking brake? [o_o] I would recommend sticking with the pedal brake

[lnferno]

For a stock S6 at 3,800' of altitude, is it worth abusing the drivetrain with launch control, or just stomp on the gas pedal and call it a day? The method I use (not yet on this car) when I need to take off quickly from a stoplight or something is to just set the parking brake, rest my foot on the gas, and just go when needed. Even my N/A F6 PDK Porsche took off pretty quickly like that, and basically no abuse. Reaction is the quickest, so probably similar to launch control in real time, no? I don't like abusing my vehicles, so haven't tried L/C on any of them (not even the GTR), but just curious if it's really needed on an engine with lots of torque down low. Thx.

I wouldn't recommend using launch control all the time. I think there's a 200 limit. A TCU tune can change that, however. The context of launching was intended for track and/or competitive situations - not to be used all the time. At the track or in a competitive situation, launch control in the S6 makes a huge difference! On APR stage 1 tune, at 7500' DA, I was able to pull off 1.66 60' in my old S6. What's interesting is with Mickey's stage 3 S6, he has enough power off the line where he seems to get better launches without using launch control.

[nvygw171]

Great thread Doc. Here is my take from the 20+ runs at stage 3 levels thus far

I'm not totally throwing in the towel just yet on using launch control at this power level, but it did not bode well thus far. I tried a 3k launch which came off the line well but bogged during the 1-2 upshift. I then tried the 5k launch which was way too much in every way. Massive spin and wheelhop and new underwear required (will never do that again).

I noticed when I wasn't using launch control and was more so "loading" the car from idle (more of an upswing method as you alluded to), the car would come out of the hole nicely and without any tire squeal or spin. The problem with this method was that the car kept engaging in LC and I couldn't "load" the car as I wanted to...my solution was to keep the traction control on as I knew this would prevent activating LC. There is a sweet spot with this loading method that I am still trying to dial in (getting close). I cut a few 1.61 and 1.63 60' times using this method on street tires, which I think are in the top tier for stage 3 S car 60' times. Really excited to give it another go this month back home.

Here is a video of me loading the launch as described above. Not my quickest run but one of my better 60' times. As you can see, no drama off the line and it just goes.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0JaShJTkSE

How much brake pressure and about what rpm are you releasing at. Are you full throttle before releasing the brakes? Thanks

[S4Per]

FYI, I was out trying some 0-60 with Dragy today. Best results so far is upswing and releasing between 1600-1800 rpm. Anything above that and the tires are spinning mostly through first. It was cold (49 degrees) and on a freeway on ramp...looking forward to some warmer temps to see if I can get more grip.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ze_Nardo6]

How much brake pressure and about what rpm are you releasing at. Are you full throttle before releasing the brakes? Thanks

Brake pressure is quite firm, not like I'm standing on it but enough to keep the car from edging forward. I would say the RPMs were between 1500-2200 upon release of the brake

[nvygw171]

Brake pressure is quite firm, not like I'm standing on it but enough to keep the car from edging forward. I would say the RPMs were between 1500-2200 upon release of the brake

Great, thanks. My best 60' is 1.79 and i would like to get it into the 1.6's. I've been getting a wierd limp mode every so often with this method so suspect I'm doing something it doesn't like but I'm not sure what.

[Ze_Nardo6]

Great, thanks. My best 60' is 1.79 and i would like to get it into the 1.6's. I've been getting a wierd limp mode every so often with this method so suspect I'm doing something it doesn't like but I'm not sure what.

What I suspect you're doing wrong is holding the brake and throttle for too long. This methodology works only if you perform as an upswing method where you're not holding revs.

Left foot on the brake firm, right foot engages the throttle. As soon as revs build to around 2k, release the brake pedal and floor the throttle. You cannot sit holding revs, it will make the car limp off the line (happened to me once)

[elptxjc]

Parking brake? I would recommend sticking with the pedal brake

In case you don't know, our cars release the parking brake automatically when applying throttle[:D] (and rather easily), so basically stomping it, but with better reaction time, since your right foot is on the gas pedal already, and brake pedal is free. And Inferno, as I said, I've never used LC since I don't like abusing my cars, and would only use it a handful of times if at all. Seems like with a stock S6, it's not even necessary. Thanks for the info to all. Have a great week.

[JWebb_C7_Comp]

Great thread Doc. Here is my take from the 20+ runs at stage 3 levels thus far

I'm not totally throwing in the towel just yet on using launch control at this power level, but it did not bode well thus far. I tried a 3k launch which came off the line well but bogged during the 1-2 upshift. I then tried the 5k launch which was way too much in every way. Massive spin and wheelhop and new underwear required (will never do that again).

I noticed when I wasn't using launch control and was more so "loading" the car from idle (more of an upswing method as you alluded to), the car would come out of the hole nicely and without any tire squeal or spin. The problem with this method was that the car kept engaging in LC and I couldn't "load" the car as I wanted to...my solution was to keep the traction control on as I knew this would prevent activating LC. There is a sweet spot with this loading method that I am still trying to dial in (getting close). I cut a few 1.61 and 1.63 60' times using this method on street tires, which I think are in the top tier for stage 3 S car 60' times. Really excited to give it another go this month back home.

Here is a video of me loading the launch as described above. Not my quickest run but one of my better 60' times. As you can see, no drama off the line and it just goes.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0JaShJTkSE

10.75.... I love it... great color too!


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87676)

[Ze_Nardo6]

10.75.... I love it... great color too!


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87676)

Thanks. Ran a 10.69 that day as well [up]

[cobrario]

as the track season closes in thought I'd just bump this thread for all interested parties

[AnesRS7]

Great write up Cobrario! I am very familiar with both and side with you on all points 100%. .. hardest part is when you are bracing for launch and that devil jumps on your shoulder and says (Hold till 2.8-3k)... lol


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=87676)

[KEEP IT REAL]

What do you think about turning off DSC, faster or slower? i actually didn't have time to do so many test but i would usually hold DSC for 5 sec to turn it off completely

[Loe]

Upswing becomes a bitch for me.

Try this method to see if it works for you DSG guys:

-foot on brake
-bring revs to about 2,000rpm using the throttle to modulate it around this RPM range (normally 35-40%)
-release the brake at the same time as matting the throttle past kick-down right away

I'm finding on my B8.5 that the clutches engage immediately around 2,000rpm (or wherever you hold the gas pedal at), and the quick matting of the throttle is quick enough to engage AMAX and keeping the full 7,400+rpm range in 1st gear. A few of us B8/B8.5 guys have trouble with our 1-2 upshift occuring around the 6,500rpm range at full AMAX mode, and this method bypasses that upshift point and allows full RPM range w/ AMAX engaged.

I haven't posted much about my latest launch technique in the B8/B8.5 forum, figured I would try to at least keep something for myself. It results in a similar 60ft time as a harder launch, but a better 1/4 mile ET and Trap for me.

[MikeDwerks]

Great thread Doc. Here is my take from the 20+ runs at stage 3 levels thus far

I'm not totally throwing in the towel just yet on using launch control at this power level, but it did not bode well thus far. I tried a 3k launch which came off the line well but bogged during the 1-2 upshift. I then tried the 5k launch which was way too much in every way. Massive spin and wheelhop and new underwear required (will never do that again).

I noticed when I wasn't using launch control and was more so "loading" the car from idle (more of an upswing method as you alluded to), the car would come out of the hole nicely and without any tire squeal or spin. The problem with this method was that the car kept engaging in LC and I couldn't "load" the car as I wanted to...my solution was to keep the traction control on as I knew this would prevent activating LC. There is a sweet spot with this loading method that I am still trying to dial in (getting close). I cut a few 1.61 and 1.63 60' times using this method on street tires, which I think are in the top tier for stage 3 S car 60' times. Really excited to give it another go this month back home.

Here is a video of me loading the launch as described above. Not my quickest run but one of my better 60' times. As you can see, no drama off the line and it just goes.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0JaShJTkSE

Thanks for sharing that, it will be something I will be trying soon.

In keeping traction control on, I assume the system is interfering a little bit during the initial 60" because of wheel spin... but it's not messing too much with our times?


Recently broke my rear half shaft using launch control on my Stg 2 S6 and was wondering about a different method to try next time out. Will still probably use launch control, but busting things does have me a little bit trigger shy