2014 S6, hard to start, rough idle, stalls, white smoke.. Diagnosis?

[sync8e]

I'm the original owner. My car has a new battery, new oil change, new coolant.

My car wouldn't start back up yesterday after fueling. It took many tries, but what finally got the engine going was pressing the gas while trying to start the car. White smoke came out the exhaust for a few seconds. At the first stop, I noticed the car had a very rough idle and the engine was searching for idle (rpms fluctuating everywhere). At another stop the car stalled during idle. Now if if my foot is not on the gas and rpms are not above 1k, the car stalls.

Do any of you experts have any idea of what the problem could be? 70k miles. Coolant levels are normal and is still pink, no oil contamination.

Symptoms: hard to start, white smoke on start, rough idle, stalls during idle

Google tells me white smoke is caused by burning coolant or water. Could I have a bad head gasket? Did I fill up with watery gas? Dirty throttle body? Etc..

Thanks for your help

[ryanlada]

Sweet smell from exhaust? White smoke can mean coolant getting into the combustion, head gasket or some sort of crack? Would need to pressure test the cooling system to find out.

[IowaRS7]

Thought I seen a TSB on this regarding turbo issues. I would take to dealer. Still under warranty?

[sync8e]

I can't really tell if the exhaust smoke is sweet. It is definitely white. Since I'm not losing coolant I'm not 100% sure I'm burning coolant.

I did pull into one of those personal car wash bays and use a pressure water hose to quickly wash all the bugs off the car from the drive. Could I have introduced water somewhere it shouldn't be and be burning that?

[hanyoung]

Hopefully PCV valve?

[sync8e]

Unfortunately car is no longer under warranty. I remember seeing a PVC TSB somewhere, could it be that?

I don't understand why the car stalls at low rpm/a stop.

[sync8e]

I just realized that the car won't tell me the engine oil level. Is there a way to determine this outside the electronic system?

If it is a bad PVC valve, maybe I lost all my oil and the engine is not happy with that.

The perplexing thing is there are no error lights lit on my dashboard. No engine, no battery lights, nothing is lit

[DGVR6]

I think it’s the turbos

[wwhan]

I think it’s the turbos

+1

TSB for turbo MY 2013 to 2016. symptom is hard start, rough running. Failure is turbine hitting housing from lubrication or air filter issues. Oil seal fail on turbo bearings could give white smoke?

[Dasquade]

Opening the engine hood with warmed up engine should also give you the oil level in the DIS...otherwise good old oil stick.
I would at least try run a scan for starters. Not sure if the car is still making boost beside the rough idle etc...
Definatly would go in and let it checked out! I tought blue smoke was oil leak symptome versus white smoke....

[ryanlada]

I can't really tell if the exhaust smoke is sweet. It is definitely white. Since I'm not losing coolant I'm not 100% sure I'm burning coolant.

It's a pretty distinct smell, and you would be missing coolant. Must be something else.

[sync8e]

Opening the engine hood with warmed up engine should also give you the oil level in the DIS...otherwise good old oil stick.
I would at least try run a scan for starters. Not sure if the car is still making boost beside the rough idle etc...
Definatly would go in and let it checked out! I tought blue smoke was oil leak symptome versus white smoke....

The oil level finally displayed. It's full.

I got my car scanned and this is the code:
P0175, System too rich, bank 2.

Any advice on what this error code can tell me about how to fix the issue?

[pez81]

The oil level finally displayed. It's full.

I got my car scanned and this is the code:
P0175, System too rich, bank 2.

Any advice on what this error code can tell me about how to fix the issue?

Google search of that code brings up this https://www.engine-codes.com/p0175_audi.html

Possible causes Faulty front heated oxygen sensor Ignition misfiring Faulty fuel injectors Exhaust gas leaks Incorrect fuel pressure Faulty Mass Air Flow (MAF) sensor What does this mean? When is the code detected? - Fuel injection system does not operate properly. - The amount of mixture ratio compensation is too large. (The mixture ratio is too rich.) Possible symptoms Engine Light ON (or Service Engine Soon Warning Light) Excessive Fuel Consumption P0175 Audi Description With the Air/Fuel Mixture Ratio Self-Learning Control, the actual mixture ratio can be brought closely to the theoretical mixture ratio based on the mixture ratio feedback signal from the heated oxygen sensors 1. The Engine Control Module (ECM) calculates the necessary compensation to correct the offset between the actual and the theoretical ratios. In case the amount of the compensation value is extremely large (The actual mixture ratio is too lean.), the ECM judges the condition as the fuel injection system malfunction and light up the MIL (2 trip detection logic).

Read more: https://www.engine-codes.com/p0175_audi.html

Fueling problems make sense but a decent shop will tell you. Im going to guess injectors

[pez81]

As we don't have MAF sensors on our cars i don't believe you can write that one off unless i am mistaken

[Dasquade]

Things you can vheck for yourself untill you get professional help.
*check if intake is okey (no dirt and not wet from carwah, no loose connections, etc...)
*sure you running proper 98 octane gas? Never know...
*not so easy but maybe check connection of both or even all 4 oxygen sensors...if possible remove them and inspect on carbon build on them.

All other stuff, spark plugs/coils and worst case injectors are but harder to inspect. Good luck, i would let a pro look at it :).

[wwhan]

https://procarreviews.com/white-blue-black-smoke-exhaust/

"Turbo Issues.
The turbo usually emits white or grey smoke that mostly appears under acceleration. Not as common but occurs seals and pumps do fail within turbos with old age."

[dudley123]

failed seals in the Snails I bet.. Check your air filter, is it dirty or has it been dirty for quite awhile? Time for RS7 turbos!

[SleekS7]

Audizine isn't allowing me to attach the PDF, but since you said you recently changed the oil, look at #3 under Technical Background. A trip to the dealer is probably warrantied. TSB # 2044640/1 Engine difficult to start, turbocharger damaged, V8 4.0TFSI.

Condition
Customer statement:
 Engine cannot be started or only with difficulty.
 Engine makes unusual noises when accelerating.
 Engine has reduced performance.
Workshop findings:
 Damage on turbocharger impeller fins, increased free play on impeller shaft of turbocharger or broken impeller
shaft.

Technical Background
Damage to the turbocharger is rarely directly the result of turbocharger failure. Therefore, it is important to
perform further checks to find the root cause to avoid repeat repairs.
Known causes for turbocharger damage:
 Performance increases by tuned ECM
 Non-compliance with service intervals
 Incorrectly fitted oil filter element
 Leaks in intake tract allowing outside unfiltered air and debris into the turbocharger
 Poor oil supply of turbocharger

I can email you the PDF if you send me your email address in a PM.

[Joe'sS6]

OP, keep us posted so we learn about this problem, please.

[sync8e]

OP, keep us posted so we learn about this problem, please.

OFFICIAL DIAGNOSIS from Audi dealer: Both my turbos are SHOT. Need to replace both turbos for a tune of $9k in parts, $1400 in labor.

I do not have extended warranty and insurance will not cover this....so this might be coming out of my own pocket.

They did not perform the 21F2 service campaign yet for replacement of coolant lines and turbo o-rings...can I blame this failure on Audi (like due to improper turboseal/turboseal wear) and somehow get them to cover the repair? I have full AudiCare service history. I can't believe the turbos already failed, especially since 90% of what I do is drive freeway miles

[Dasquade]

Phhff :( sad to hear it are your turbo's..both of them?
Mind sharing what exactly is broken?
Stock factory tune? Indeed early imho if stock.

[Noizy Child]

Hope it isn't so, but it may be your turbos...(I just had to replace my own)

[pez81]

Sorry to hear that mate but.on.the upside some rs turbos here for £1500 https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F 142696991023

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[sync8e]

Phhff :( sad to hear it are your turbo's..both of them?
Mind sharing what exactly is broken?
Stock factory tune? Indeed early imho if stock.

Stock factory tune. Dealership says its both turbos, but the photo they sent me seem like its only one side. It seems to me the impellers are only scratching the turbo and not a total failure? Could you guys take a look?

53604

[DGVR6]

That’s kind of expensive for two. You can find it cheaper elsewhere and let them do it for 800$

[IowaRS7]

Damn, this is scary. There have now been several posts with this same issue.

[Dasquade]

It does appear to me on both sides the propellors scratched the housing. Definatly would have a closer look at them.
The left one clearly has oil leakage issues. Not sure if this is the 'famous' turbine vs housing issue....
Offtopic: but if that is the case, looks mine are still okey (holding wood).

Not sure what your plans are, but there are several stock mildly used s6 turbo's out there, but also mildly used rs turbo's but the last need upgrades and tune.
Hoping Audi comes between in parts costs, but since out of warenty :(...

[carx7]

Ouch. A few thoughts for you to consider:
1) As mentioned, that price is insane. Though I am new to Audi, I am not new to turbos and I would be shocked if these cannot be rebuilt by a reputable turbo shop for less than $1-$2k total.
2) The compressor wheel rubbing on the compressor housing (two parts in your picture) is indicative of bearing failure in a turbo. I can *kinda* understand why a dealership would reccoment replacement with factory rather than rebuild, but see #1 above.
3) Typical turbo's actually use bushings and not bearings. These bushings rely on oil pressure to provide a thin film supporting the shaft and preventing any actual metal/metal contact. If the oil is off (wrong viscosity, too hot, dirty, etc) it will not maintain the appropriate characteristics needed for proper turbo function. (I worked in a turbo machinery lab as a grad student and ran $hit loads of tests on the implication of oil condition on turbo performance by monitoring shaft vibrations, etc)
4) Once you get contact, the compressor wheel is going to be worn, which will impact balance, induce more vibration and the cycle will get worse.

My guess without further research specific to these specific Audi turbos: A rebuild from a proper shop will consist of new bearings, likely a new compressor wheel (assuming yours is worn/damaged) and then a dynamic balance. Your housings should be entirely re-usable since small scratches like this aren't going to impact performance on a street car in a noticeable way. You may find, in the vibration is significant enough that the turbine wheel (on the exhaust side) is also damaged in which case you'll need a new turbine wheel/shaft (they're all one piece). In this event, your are talking about replacing your turbo's CHRA (Center Housing Rotating Assembly) and again, I've seen those as cheap as a a few hundred dollars for smaller turbo's.

You might contact a few vendors to see how they've tackled this in the past.
Consider giving these guys a call to get a second opinion on cost:
https://www.atpturbo.com/

Good Luck and keep us posted.

-Chris

[wwhan]

Damn, this is scary. There have now been several posts with this same issue.

It must be pretty common since this February 2, 2017 Turbo TSB exists and the bad news is, it covers 2013 to 2016 (even RS7).

http://www.audizine.com/gallery/data/504/medium/Turbo_S6_TSB.JPG
"Leaks in intake tract allowing outside unfiltered air and debris into the turbocharger
Poor oil supply of turbocharger"

[carx7]

All very true:

#1 Increased boost usually increases axial loads on the compressor and if the thrust bearings aren't up to snuff they'll wear, introduce vibration, contact the housing, then Boom.

#2, and #3. Yep. All pertaining to oil viscosity and oil pressure and maintaining proper fluid properties for those bushings.

This is not to imply the OP wasn't following intervals and he already stated this was a factory tune.

[Sanjman]

Geez you're not the first to blow your turbos... this scares me especially when i'm reaching 50K miles and out of warranty... might be a good time to pull the intake hoses and inspect the fins.

[Dasquade]

@sync8e: do you happen to have 'pre' picture or info on condition of your turbo oil/coolant rings? Leaking? Kinda looks this is a bit the main cause, knowing so many have some small/mild/heavy leaking oil rings (between cold and hot turbo). Recently noticed mine (left side) is starting to leak a little bit too, always kinda didn't wanted to fix it as some had bad experience with the fixes aswell and since it isn't that much in my case......but we indeed starting to see a few turbo's getting broken lately :s (and since there is a TSB out there, looks we only see the tip of the iceberg!).

[Dasquade]

Geez you're not the first to blow your turbos... this scares me especially when i'm reaching 50K miles and out of warranty... might be a good time to pull the intake hoses and inspect the fins.
x2....i tried to ask it in other topic, but how do we pull the intake hoses, i mean the complete metal pipes? Looks like it is hold on by 2 bolts, but i see 2 weldpoints aswell. Do they have a gasket?

[IowaRS7]

Note to self, start saving for new turbos now [:D]

[Sanjman]

x2....i tried to ask it in other topic, but how do we pull the intake hoses, i mean the complete metal pipes? Looks like it is hold on by 2 bolts, but i see 2 weldpoints aswell. Do they have a gasket?

I read deeper into it and it seems like it happens with the 2013 and tied to a service campaign (TSB) ...

punch in your VIN to this and see if you have any open recalls/campaigns for your car. http://web.audiusa.com/recall/

Here's the link to the discussion:
https://www.audiworld.com/forums/s6-c7-platform-discussion-199/21f2-service-campaign-4-0-tfsis-2918619/page4/

[bpd]

That tsb should help your case since its a known repetitive issue. Possible to negotiate something with dealer requesting they cover it or maybe cover 75% of the repair, or............. Doesn't hurt to try a "Goodwill" offering. Thing about these tsb's, owners don't know anything about them unless you have some knowledgeable folks that share here. This is with ALL manufacturers, they will not tell you. Looks like inferior turbos are being used here.

[Sanjman]

with 70K he went out of warranty a while back, I wonder if he started doing his own oil changes or takign it to an indy shop. Since this campaign came out last year in april, he definitely could have missed it coming out. I would def try goodwill attempt... would be interested to see if he got anything to popup on the recall site with his VIN.

[Dasquade]

I read deeper into it and it seems like it happens with the 2013 and tied to a service campaign (TSB) ...

punch in your VIN to this and see if you have any open recalls/campaigns for your car. http://web.audiusa.com/recall/

Here's the link to the discussion:
https://www.audiworld.com/forums/s6-c7-platform-discussion-199/21f2-service-campaign-4-0-tfsis-2918619/page4/
I know my car has this TSB openstanding (software update and rings). They couldn't or didn't want to upgrade as i had tune (but not flagged yet afaik, open relationship with my dealer). Not sure if the software update is directly linked to the 'failing of turbo' incase it hasn't got the update, i more lean to the failing rings and more specificly what happens inside the lines and turbo cooling/lubrication itself. I know leaking oil turns into carbon on the outside....for what it is worth, not a single trace of oil inside my turbo housing so for now that gives me some peace of mind.

Sorry sync8e for the derail of your topic, but just trying to help find the source. Imho inproper cooling/lubrication is the cause (and not directly inferior turbo's itself (extra reason to perform more regular oil changes and 'epr' treadments imho). Yes the turbo's get insane hot (even on regular daily drives with some WOT's).

[sync8e]

It does appear to me on both sides the propellors scratched the housing. Definatly would have a closer look at them.
The left one clearly has oil leakage issues. Not sure if this is the 'famous' turbine vs housing issue....
Offtopic: but if that is the case, looks mine are still okey (holding wood).

Not sure what your plans are, but there are several stock mildly used s6 turbo's out there, but also mildly used rs turbo's but the last need upgrades and tune.
Hoping Audi comes between in parts costs, but since out of warenty :(...

I think I would be okay with mildly used turbos... I dread sinking $9k into new factory turbos (received the parts list/quote, it really is $8.9k). Could you point me in the right direction? I've been searching on ebay without much success

I've diligently changed my oil every 5k miles (inbetween AudiCare) with Motul 8100 X-cess 5W-40 and bought the filters from the dealership. I have full Audicare & AudiCare Plus (55k + 65k) service history. I baby this car...so I don't understand how this happened at 70k miles [headbang]

[elptxjc]

It must be pretty common since this February 2, 2017 Turbo TSB exists and the bad news is, it covers 2013 to 2016 (even RS7).

Is it safe to assume my 2018 has better turbos? Hope so. Thanks.

[Dasquade]

I think I would be okay with mildly used turbos... I dread sinking $9k into new factory turbos (received the parts list/quote, it really is $8.9k). Could you point me in the right direction? I've been searching on ebay without much success

I've diligently changed my oil every 5k miles (inbetween AudiCare) with Motul 8100 X-cess 5W-40 and bought the filters from the dealership. I have full Audicare & AudiCare Plus (55k + 65k) service history. I baby this car...so I don't understand how this happened at 70k miles [headbang]
Mind have some luck with the guys who went stage 3? But now and then some mildly used turbo's pop up on ebay.de and ebay.co.uk (but i only searched for the RS turbo's in the past).
Not sure how legit these are but lately several RS turbo's for cheap prices (maybe too cheap to be true) and not sure if you would consider going stage 3
https://www.benl.ebay.be/itm/NEU-NEW-Original-2x-Audi-RS6-RS7-S8-4-0-TFSI-turbolader-079145721B-079145722B/332559409349?hash=item4d6e15e0c5:g:SWMAAOSwzRFaaM8 g

Same here about the oils....but curious about your turbo seals. Especially if i read that comment about the bushings and proper oil sealing them.
Would be nice to see the turbines removed and see how much carbon is on it (if that makes sense)....

[Cris_OO7]

Long story short I notice some carbon forming around the lines and waited for my service interval to have this recall done. I told the CSR that my lines are leaking and wanted the recall done. I get a call the next day saying the car is good to go. I checked the lines and they were clean no crust. Maybe 1-2 months later I start smelling oil burning few minutes after start up noticed oil leaking from the lines. Brought the car back they told me they are leaking and that the recall was closed on the car and im out of warranty so its going to cost me $1900. I explained i brought the car in to have this done so its covered they said they never did them according to there log. I had to call AOA and open a case which then they said that the dealer was going to cover it as good will..lol. Since 2-5-18 I still haven’t received my car back. CSR said they had to order the parts got a call on 2-13 parts are in waiting for them to call to pick it up. They gave me a loaner 16 A6 this whole time hope when I pick her up there wont be any surprises.


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[Hofahome]

Just went through replacing/upgrading my turbos. I think failure on driver side turbo could be related to poor design of the oil separator/pcv system. Oil obviously gets sucked in to the intake tract. Can't be good. Plus it allows for direct access for any debris, such as pcv failure. Combine this with the fact that the turbo oil/coolant gaskets suck balls, and you get recipe for disaster.

To the OP, turn lemons into lemonade and upgrade the turbos. Or just see if the dealership will work with you.


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[kpriv]

It must be pretty common since this February 2, 2017 Turbo TSB exists and the bad news is, it covers 2013 to 2016 (even RS7).

Is it safe to assume my 2018 has better turbos? Hope so. Thanks.

I know the RS/S8+ turbo part numbers changed sometime last year. Haven't checked but the S turbo's may have been updated as well.

[sync8e]

Anyone have any advice on how to open a case with AoA about this issue to see if they would provide some goodwill or work with me on this issue?

If I knew I had to add another $10k to the cost of this car in labor and parts at 70,000 miles. I'm not sure I would have bought this car...well at least it would have given me hesitation.

[wwhan]

I know the RS/S8+ turbo part numbers changed sometime last year. Haven't checked but the S turbo's may have been updated as well.

2014 Audi S6: https://genuineaudiparts.com
Audi Part Number: 079145721 - Turbocharger 4.0 LITER Left, MSRP = $2,800.00, Online Price = $2,430.40
Audi Part Number: 079145722 - Turbocharger 4.0 LITER Right, MSRP = $2,640.00, Online Price = $2,291.52

Cheaper here:
https://www.gossettparts.com/oem-parts/audi-turbocharger-079145721 $2,254.00
https://www.gossettparts.com/oem-parts/audi-turbocharger-079145722 $2,125.20

Fits:
Audi A8 4.0L V8 Base Quattro 2013, 2014, 2015
Audi A8 4.0L V8 L Quattro 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016
Audi A8 4.0L V8 L Sport Quattro 2017
Audi S6 Base 2013, 2014, 2015
Audi S6 Premium Plus 2016, 2017
Audi S6 Prestige 2016, 2017
Audi S7 Base 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016
Audi S7 Premium Plus 2017
Audi S7 Prestige 2017
Audi S8 Base 2013, 2014

[OlyS6]

It must be pretty common since this February 2, 2017 Turbo TSB exists and the bad news is, it covers 2013 to 2016 (even RS7).

Is it safe to assume my 2018 has better turbos? Hope so. Thanks.

You can check your part numbers for your model year vs other model years on audiusaparts.com and other similar websites to see if they are the same or different. You have a better oil separator than previous models. I don't know if your turbos are any different (I don't think so).

[OlyS6]

I think I would be okay with mildly used turbos... I dread sinking $9k into new factory turbos (received the parts list/quote, it really is $8.9k). Could you point me in the right direction? I've been searching on ebay without much success

I've diligently changed my oil every 5k miles (inbetween AudiCare) with Motul 8100 X-cess 5W-40 and bought the filters from the dealership. I have full Audicare & AudiCare Plus (55k + 65k) service history. I baby this car...so I don't understand how this happened at 70k miles [headbang]

You can certainly get brand new turbos and all associated hardware/gaskets for under $5K. Take a look at audiusaparts.com There are threads here that can direct you in how to do the install yourself (especially whitewhiteS7s thread on changing the oil separator, which I highly recommend doing as long as you are in there). Alternatively, buy the parts online and find a reputable independent mechanic. You'll save quite a bit of money. Others on here who have recently gone Stage 3 may be willing to sell their used turbos, which would cost even less. Finally, although more money, you could do a few other upgrades along with RS7 turbos and go Stage 3 and turn it into an entirely different car!

[Joe'sS6]

You can certainly get brand new turbos and all associated hardware/gaskets for under $5K. Take a look at audiusaparts.com There are threads here that can direct you in how to do the install yourself (especially whitewhiteS7s thread on changing the oil separator, which I highly recommend doing as long as you are in there). Alternatively, buy the parts online and find a reputable independent mechanic. You'll save quite a bit of money. Others on here who have recently gone Stage 3 may be willing to sell their used turbos, which would cost even less. Finally, although more money, you could do a few other upgrades along with RS7 turbos and go Stage 3 and turn it into an entirely different car!
If it was my case, that would sound like the devil is talking to me [emoji1]

[OlyS6]

I do drive an all blacked out Stage 3 S6....


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[Packy]

http://sillyrabbitmotorsport.com/turbochargers/audi/rs7-turbo-upgrade

Starting to see a few issues with the S6. Beginning to worry about longevity. [wrench]

[Packy]

If I may ask, do you let the car idle after cold startup for a little bit or before you turned it off?

curious if anybody does this. I saw a demonstration on a Chevy LS4 and it took 19 seconds to get oil flowing to the rockers from cold start. I'm sure Turbos get oil quicker, but when I see my wife jump in and go in 3 seconds flat, I cringe. Same with flying into the driveway and shutting it off before the Turbo can slow down. Luckily she's only got one on her A4.

[sync8e]

Yes, I usually always let the car idle for a little bit...at least 30 seconds.

I can be quick to turn off the car and jump out, but I hear my fans going most of the time. I hear it means the car is continuing to circulate coolant/oil for a little bit to cool down on its own.

[edg71908]

I have a 2013 S6 with 86,000 miles and have been having a hard time starting the car lately along with the rough idle. I took it in and and after a week of diagnosis they determined its both turbos. He said there are screens that can get clogged and cause reduced oil flow causing them to fail. Had 2 pages of things that needed to be replaced. On a positive note I have a warranty from Fidelity (Troy) until 96K. Fingers crossed that it is all covered. Anything i should do while they are replacing the turbos, seals etc? The tech did say that being there is a Service bulletin out there it really helps with the warranty covering it.

Thanks guys!

[OlyS6]

If you can, replace the oil separator, coolant and oil return lines for the turbos, and the oil screen and check valve beneath the turbos


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[3g_bishi]

What ever happened


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[edg71908]

I had the oil separator replaced under warranty at 49,500 miles. Should i have it replaced again being i am at 86,000? Is the one they put in a few years ago better than the stock one? Thanks! I guess its only a $350 part.