Brief BMW M5 0-60 and 1/4 mile review

[limeypride]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxsBUkm9vBs

... the tuning potential here is exciting (well, it's exciting to me at least).

[Welterweight]

Damn!


2014 S6 Black on Black
EPL Stage 1 ECU/TCU
20" Avante Garde
Resonator Delete
Magnaflow Sport
CETE Lowering
35% Tint

[A4Qwattro]

That's quick. And that is a next level AWD system. Sending 100% of power to the rear wheels at the flick of a switch for track day fun. Put it into AWD and win every drag.

[Ze_Nardo6]

But it’s a BMW


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[limeypride]

But it’s a BMW

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For those that haven't met Mickie(<-- :0), he's a pleb.... and a ginger one at that. 'Nuff said...

// for those wondering what a 'pleb' is, there's a definition/picture of Mickie in all his glorious auburn'ness here (https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pleb) (not sure what happened to the pic but whatever...)

[:D]

[Ze_Nardo6]

When you flirt, you flirt hard Dean

On a serious note, those are some impressive numbers. Will be fun to see it lined up next to the E63S

[limeypride]

@Mickey: awww, thanks, man! [confused]


That's quick. And that is a next level AWD system. Sending 100% of power to the rear wheels at the flick of a switch for track day fun. Put it into AWD and win every drag.

Agreed. That AWD system sounds like a gem.

To date, I've never owned a car with a slushbox that I truly loved (although my RS7 comes damned close to true "love"). DCTs--whether they be BMW, Audi, Porsche, Lambo--have that something special... I can readily define "special" in glorious detail but it's lengthy and I think "special" is enough in this context. Anyhoo, I recently drove a 2017 A4 2.0T with Audi DCT and its transmission was a gem... leaving my RS7's in the trash as far as I'm concerned so I've been worried that BMW have ruined the V8 M-cars but, having watched review after review, perhaps my fears are finally unfounded.

[FourRings115]

I am on my fourth Audi but I have to say the defeatable all wheel drive system is pretty damn attractive for the track.

[limeypride]

When you flirt, you flirt hard Dean

On a serious note, those are some impressive numbers. Will be fun to see it lined up next to the E63S

They did.... well, sorta. Vbox times gave it a 0.1 advantage.

I have extensive experience with the BMW tuning aftermarket and, more recently, some experience with Audi--there's a war waiting to be fought here--does anyone know if Mercedes has an active, lively tuning aftermarket?

[Hofahome]

My mechanic has a new M5 on order. Hoping to get a ride in it.
The new M5 and E63 should scare Audi since they now offer the best of both worlds (AWD to 2WD). its not like driving dynamics was audi's strong suit to begin with and they have lost the competitive advantage (from a marketing approach anyhow) of having AWD in the high performance models. It will be interesting to see if the drivetrain will hold up to tuning the M5/E63 however.

[DGVR6]

Wow.. now the m5 is going to be interesting. I’m glad they went AWD, without sacrificing the sportiness of the of the heritage M RWD. Really a game changer.

I have to agree, looks like Audi is losing that AWD advantage in marketing even though audis symmetrical AWD is a really balanced system in all weather conditions. RWD with the option to launch and drive in the snow is just so MUCH more fun.

As for tuning, it will be interesting to see how the transmission would hold up with multiple launches.. the symmetrical system in Subaru’s and Audis has held its own for a long time..even quattros haldex.

[limeypride]

Wow.. now the m5 is going to be interesting. I’m glad they went AWD, without sacrificing the sportiness of the of the heritage M RWD. Really a game changer.

I have to agree, looks like Audi is losing that AWD advantage in marketing even though audis symmetrical AWD is a really balanced system in all weather conditions. RWD with the option to launch and drive in the snow is just so MUCH more fun.

As for tuning, it will be interesting to see how the transmission would hold up with multiple launches.. the symmetrical system in Subaru’s and Audis has held its own for a long time..even quattros haldex.

Isn't the transmission in well-proven Audis (not to mention Hellcats and the like) and this new M5 one and the same ZF (albeit with different TCU programming)?

[DGVR6]

Not really sure what the m5 is sporting.. but it’s really the differential than anything else. It’s most likely an electronic clutch like haldex rather than gears like ours which makes it impossible for us to cut it off.

I’ve only seen in those in lower xdrive models or 4cyl/6cyl audi/vw models honestly. Those clutches can only take so much torque if it indeed is in fact one, and those engines are bad to the bone once tuned.

[limeypride]

Not really sure what the m5 is sporting.. but it’s really the differential than anything else. It’s most likely an electronic clutch like haldex rather than gears like ours which makes it impossible for us to cut it off.

I’ve only seen in those in lower xdrive models or 4cyl/6cyl audi/vw models honestly. Those clutches can only take so much torque if it indeed is in fact one, and those engines are bad to the bone once tuned.

I certainly don't know for sure and I'm not even familiar with some of the terms you're using (e.g. haldex) but everything I've been reading for months now indicates it is a ZF-sourced transmission (see here (http://www.bmwblog.com/2017/08/21/world-premiere-2018-f90-generation-bmw-m5-first-awd-m5-ever/), for example) but, as you imply, there are other upstream/downstream components that need to take the strain as well. Beyond that, I don't know...

[MadMaxD]

They did.... well, sorta. Vbox times gave it a 0.1 advantage.

I have extensive experience with the BMW tuning aftermarket and, more recently, some experience with Audi--there's a war waiting to be fought here--does anyone know if Mercedes has an active, lively tuning aftermarket?

They do. A local tuner here is deep into the 10s with a new E63S.

[DGVR6]

Ahh ok, yea the haldex system from Audi is a clutch based AWD that uses clutch packs to direct torque to the wheels.. as with all clutches, it has a torque limit, the bmw seems like it will be using the same concept as with all xdrives. Our cars (rs7/5,s6/7,s4/5) use a Torsen system, which is gears.

So I’ve been reading a bit on the new BMW AWD concept and came across this,

“The principal hardware components of M xDrive are based on those of the BMW xDrive intelligent all-wheel-drive system and the Active M Differential, while the M-specific driving dynamics control software ensures innovative deployment. The drivetrain has been reinforced for greater rigidity and strength to factor in the high torque, rear-biased configuration and 2WD option. While the transfer case splits a portion of the engine’s drive between the front and rear wheels in a smoothly adjustable ratio (depending on requirements), the Active M Differential is responsible for then distributing the drive between the rear wheels.”
http://www.bmwblog.com/2017/05/16/bmw-confirms-xdrive-new-m5-3-driving-modes-4wd-4wd-sport-2wd/

Seems like bmw took the time to strengthen it up to handle the torque. The RS does pretty well with torque because it uses gears instead of clutches. But, something can break or shear off obviously, it’s never bullet proof.

[Serpent]

does anyone know if Mercedes has an active, lively tuning aftermarket?

Yes they do. I've been told 2018 E63s runs 10.8 on 91 octane with just tune.

[Rez90]

it's awesome. and everything about it says i want one.

but the last BMW i owned was such a headache with issues and overpriced maintenance....i just don't know if i can do it again....

[Ze_Nardo6]

They did.... well, sorta. Vbox times gave it a 0.1 advantage.


Different day, different temps, different DA, different winds.

Like I said, I want to see them line up in same conditions

[Ze_Nardo6]

They do. A local tuner here is deep into the 10s with a new E63S.

Where? I saw Weistec post a 10.8 as a current "world record" within the week. And it only trapped 126-127...granted pump gas, but I expected more from a tune only time from a car that runs 11.0-11.1 stock

[BigTex]

it's awesome. and everything about it says i want one.

but the last BMW i owned was such a headache with issues and overpriced maintenance....i just don't know if i can do it again....

Ditto. I had a 2013 M5 and it loved the shop more than my garage. I will never again buy the first model year BMW. Also, if I ever go back to BMW, I would only consider leasing them. On the M5, BMW was very aggressive on the leases, which crushed the resale value. I sold mine just before the warranty expired for $45k and it had 30k miles on it. Over $15k a year depreciation. Crazy.

I do respect the performance of the new one. It would be interesting to see how it handles though, as the old one felt heavy even though it went around the corners remarkably well.


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[FourRings115]

The 540 and especially the heavier 550 have been reviewed elsewhere as a smaller version of the 7 series luxobarge. Which it is, as it's a shortened 7 series platform under it. The reviewer in the OP didn't seem to have that feeling, which is surprising given the weight of the M5.
Besides reliability, my biggest issue with BMW has been pricing. The BMW 650 GC is priced similarly against the Audi RS7. The M6 GC is well above the RS7. You can get a TTV8 S7 for the cost of the six cylinder 640 GC. Sorry BMW, I am not paying the extra $20k to get a similar drivetrain as in the Audi.

[HenryAWD]

The 540 and especially the heavier 550 have been reviewed elsewhere as a smaller version of the 7 series luxobarge. Which it is, as it's a shortened 7 series platform under it. The reviewer in the OP didn't seem to have that feeling, which is surprising given the weight of the M5.
Besides reliability, my biggest issue with BMW has been pricing. The BMW 650 GC is priced similarly against the Audi RS7. The M6 GC is well above the RS7. You can get a TTV8 S7 for the cost of the six cylinder 640 GC. Sorry BMW, I am not paying the extra $20k to get a similar drivetrain as in the Audi.

They are now competing with Porsche in that regard where you can get an S7 for the price of a Panamera.

Edit: Which can be even considered a bargain compared to BMW...

[Rez90]

Ditto. I had a 2013 M5 and it loved the shop more than my garage. I will never again buy the first model year BMW. Also, if I ever go back to BMW, I would only consider leasing them. On the M5, BMW was very aggressive on the leases, which crushed the resale value. I sold mine just before the warranty expired for $45k and it had 30k miles on it. Over $15k a year depreciation. Crazy.

I do respect the performance of the new one. It would be interesting to see how it handles though, as the old one felt heavy even though it went around the corners remarkably well.


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I had a 2010 X5M and it was a nightmare. Told myself never again with BMW. not to mention that my local dealer charges absolute rape for service and repairs.

[Ze_Nardo6]

I had a 2010 X5M and it was a nightmare. Told myself never again with BMW. not to mention that my local dealer charges absolute rape for service and repairs.

I'm not a BMW fan at all but things change over the course of 7-8 years.

Case in point, Audi

[limeypride]

it's awesome. and everything about it says i want one.

but the last BMW i owned was such a headache with issues and overpriced maintenance....i just don't know if i can do it again....

For new BMWs, maintenance is entirely free for 3 years (I think it's 3; could be 4). This even includes some consumables such as oil and windshield wipers; gas is sadly not included nor are tires... bummer.

I certainly understand that there are folks that have had issues with BMWs and, given the volume of cars they sell, it's going to appear to be a statistically significant number... until you do the math. I'm not making excuses for them but the numbers are very low when viewed through that lens... and my personal experience doesn't reflect poor quality either. That said, quality issues plague every vendor at some point but I understand the "bad taste left in your mouth" symptom--it's hard to wash it out (other than by trying again and having a positive experience I suppose).

My BMW history goes like this:

2009 E60 550
2011 F10 550xDrive
2012 F10 550xDrive
2014 F10 M5 Comp Pkg
2015 F10 M5 Comp Pkg
2015 F10 M5 Comp Pkg
2016 F06 M6 Gran Coupe Comp Pkg
2016 F06 M6 Gran Coupe Comp Pkg
2017 X5M

I leased all but one and washed my hands of the lease roughly every 12-months or so. I had issues with two of them: one of the F10 550s had a transmission issue after I put a Dinan tune + Burger JB piggyback on it--at the same time [:)] but, nonetheless, BMW fixed it under warranty (it was never determined whether the tunes were to blame). My second issue was with the 2014 F10 M5 and a tree (at 7-days old... sigh). That car was written off and AllState replaced it for me entirely on their dime.

Beyond that, every service was free. No TD1 concerns. With the 550, the only thing they asked for was to remove the tunes and reproduce the problem; we did and they fixed it.

This is my experience so I'm sure you'll understand why I like the company as well as the product.

[limeypride]

... my biggest issue with BMW has been pricing. The BMW 650 GC is priced similarly against the Audi RS7. The M6 GC is well above the RS7. You can get a TTV8 S7 for the cost of the six cylinder 640 GC. Sorry BMW, I am not paying the extra $20k to get a similar drivetrain as in the Audi.

I don't understand how you arrived at this price-related conclusion--the data to oppose what you say is littered all over the place such as on cars.com or other similar sites. If it's an AWD comparison you're after, then I get your point and comparing the RS7 to the M6 is apples to oranges but, nonetheless, your pricing info is quite some way off.

Anyhoo, if, like me, you consider the M6 GC and RS7 as head-to-head competitors then it's worth noting that their pricing is nigh on identical; per cars.com as of right now the following MSRP ranges turn up:
- Price range of a 2017 M6 Gran Coupe = $126K - $151K * there are more expensive builds; they're just not listed today
- Price range of a 2017 Audi RS7 = $128K - $166K
- Price range of a 2017 650 Gran Coupe xDrive = $88K - $115K
... given this, I'm not clear what you're basing the pricing data on?

If we put aside emotional choice (i.e. you WANT that one car because you love it), then the MSRP is often the next #1 on the list of what folks use to influence their decision. I quickly realized, however, that it's a somewhat useless comparison tool since negotiated buy-price, maintenance, etc. is what ultimately hits your pocket--this is especially true of leasing. Here are the rough lease numbers for my last M6 GC and my current RS7 Performance:

- 2016 M6 Gran Coupe Competition Package with Akrapovic exhaust
+ MSRP = $149K
+ Off the lot fees = $8K
+ lease details: 10,000 over 36 months
+ monthly lease payment incl 9% usage tax = $1,360
+ can you sell the lease and absolve all legal financial responsibility: yes

- 2017 Audi RS7 Performance Titanium Edition with Akrapovic exhaust
+ MSRP = $141K
+ Off the lot fees = $10K
+ lease details: 10,000 over 36 months
+ monthly lease incl 9% usage tax = $2,100
+ can you sell the lease and absolve all legal financial responsibility: no

As you can see, the Audi is literally 50% more expensive and I haven't factored maintenance into these numbers either.

[cobrario]

I don't understand how you arrived at this price-related conclusion--the data to oppose what you say is littered all over the place such as on cars.com or other similar sites. If it's an AWD comparison you're after, then I get your point and comparing the RS7 to the M6 is apples to oranges but, nonetheless, your pricing info is quite some way off.

Anyhoo, if, like me, you consider the M6 GC and RS7 as head-to-head competitors then it's worth noting that their pricing is nigh on identical; per cars.com as of right now the following MSRP ranges turn up:
- Price range of a 2017 M6 Gran Coupe = $126K - $151K * there are more expensive builds; they're just not listed today
- Price range of a 2017 Audi RS7 = $128K - $166K
- Price range of a 2017 650 Gran Coupe xDrive = $88K - $115K
... given this, I'm not clear what you're basing the pricing data on?

If we put aside emotional choice (i.e. you WANT that one car because you love it), then the MSRP is often the next #1 on the list of what folks use to influence their decision. I quickly realized, however, that it's a somewhat useless comparison tool since negotiated buy-price, maintenance, etc. is what ultimately hits your pocket--this is especially true of leasing. Here are the rough lease numbers for my last M6 GC and my current RS7 Performance:

- 2016 M6 Gran Coupe Competition Package with Akrapovic exhaust
+ MSRP = $149K
+ Off the lot fees = $8K
+ lease details: 10,000 over 36 months
+ monthly lease payment incl 9% usage tax = $1,360
+ can you sell the lease and absolve all legal financial responsibility: yes

- 2017 Audi RS7 Performance Titanium Edition with Akrapovic exhaust
+ MSRP = $141K
+ Off the lot fees = $10K
+ lease details: 10,000 over 36 months
+ monthly lease incl 9% usage tax = $2,100
+ can you sell the lease and absolve all legal financial responsibility: no

As you can see, the Audi is literally 50% more expensive and I haven't factored maintenance into these numbers either.

It's a mystery to me how BMW leases are so cheap unless they're subsidizing them - in which case they're really taking a bath because the M6 and M5 are not very good at holding their value either- something is amiss there... good for the consumer I guess?

[A6sport]

But it’s a BMW


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Ba ha ha ha ha! Great!

[limeypride]

Ba ha ha ha ha! Great!

Don't feed the animals--jeez! [:)]

[limeypride]

It's a mystery to me how BMW leases are so cheap unless they're subsidizing them - in which case they're really taking a bath because the M6 and M5 are not very good at holding their value either- something is amiss there... good for the consumer I guess?

Yup, agreed on the last part.

My first M6 GC was even cheaper (under $1300) and I put less down... but it didn't have the Akra exhaust, etc.

[VVG]

Can't say that I have been disappointed with the one BMW that I have owned. That car was a 2011 e92 M3 competition. Car was damn near perfect out of the box in every way.

[NyLawyer]

Why so much boost to make 600hp, 24.5psi according to Car and Driver. S8 and performance models make half that on a smaller motor for the same power.

[Chris Morales]

I thought the Audis were in the 17 psi range stock...and that was for the base S8 and RS7, not the + and performance. But either way, the bimmer number does not seem to leave much headroom for tuning. Could it be that manufacturers are finally monetizing most of the capacity of their turbo powerplants, instead of leaving a large piece out there for the aftermarket to exploit? Yes these cars now run low 11s stock, but a tune may only put them in the high 10s.

[Ze_Nardo6]

Yes these cars now run low 11s stock, but a tune may only put them in the high 10s.

Like the E63S thus far.

Stock running 11.0-11.1 and hitting 10.8 with a tune

[FourRings115]

I don't understand how you arrived at this price-related conclusion--the data to oppose what you say is littered all over the place such as on cars.com or other similar sites. If it's an AWD comparison you're after, then I get your point and comparing the RS7 to the M6 is apples to oranges but, nonetheless, your pricing info is quite some way off.

Anyhoo, if, like me, you consider the M6 GC and RS7 as head-to-head competitors then it's worth noting that their pricing is nigh on identical; per cars.com as of right now the following MSRP ranges turn up:
- Price range of a 2017 M6 Gran Coupe = $126K - $151K * there are more expensive builds; they're just not listed today
- Price range of a 2017 Audi RS7 = $128K - $166K
- Price range of a 2017 650 Gran Coupe xDrive = $88K - $115K
... given this, I'm not clear what you're basing the pricing data on?

If we put aside emotional choice (i.e. you WANT that one car because you love it), then the MSRP is often the next #1 on the list of what folks use to influence their decision. I quickly realized, however, that it's a somewhat useless comparison tool since negotiated buy-price, maintenance, etc. is what ultimately hits your pocket--this is especially true of leasing. Here are the rough lease numbers for my last M6 GC and my current RS7 Performance:

- 2016 M6 Gran Coupe Competition Package with Akrapovic exhaust
+ MSRP = $149K
+ Off the lot fees = $8K
+ lease details: 10,000 over 36 months
+ monthly lease payment incl 9% usage tax = $1,360
+ can you sell the lease and absolve all legal financial responsibility: yes

- 2017 Audi RS7 Performance Titanium Edition with Akrapovic exhaust
+ MSRP = $141K
+ Off the lot fees = $10K
+ lease details: 10,000 over 36 months
+ monthly lease incl 9% usage tax = $2,100
+ can you sell the lease and absolve all legal financial responsibility: no

As you can see, the Audi is literally 50% more expensive and I haven't factored maintenance into these numbers either.

I did my research as well, building out both brands. I don't lease so this was a non-factor. I was shopping more than a year ago and a decently equipped 650 pushed into RS7 pricing (don't even think there was a performance model at the time so the RS7 was around $120k). BMW option pricing is almost as bad as Porsche. It was the same with the 640- to get a BMW with similar options pushed the 640 right into S7 pricing.

[FourRings115]

One question that I am sure someone here can answer: we know Audi's are nose heavy due to the centerline/weight of the engine being forward of the front axle. Why is it that rear drive BMWs (especially with a long inline six) and MBs can have the engine further back yet still have all wheel as an option?

[cobrario]

I thought the Audis were in the 17 psi range stock...and that was for the base S8 and RS7, not the + and performance. But either way, the bimmer number does not seem to leave much headroom for tuning. Could it be that manufacturers are finally monetizing most of the capacity of their turbo powerplants, instead of leaving a large piece out there for the aftermarket to exploit? Yes these cars now run low 11s stock, but a tune may only put them in the high 10s.

RS7 is 17.3 I believe in stock form- Stage 2 104 cars are pushing 30+, crazy.

[limeypride]

I thought the Audis were in the 17 psi range stock...and that was for the base S8 and RS7, not the + and performance. But either way, the bimmer number does not seem to leave much headroom for tuning. Could it be that manufacturers are finally monetizing most of the capacity of their turbo powerplants, instead of leaving a large piece out there for the aftermarket to exploit? Yes these cars now run low 11s stock, but a tune may only put them in the high 10s.

As I understand it, this car's engine isn't significantly different from the N63TU variant used in BMW's recent and current 8-cylinder M-cars. Assuming that understanding is correct, there's gobs of room left. My last M6 Gran Coupe put down 640rwhp with a $400 Burger piggyback--it was putting down around 510 from the factory. The torque gains were slightly better still. My X5M put down 670awhp with a slightly more expensive Burger JB4. I'd be very surprised if these kind of gains don't hold true for this tweaked engine... it's of course possible, though.

[Chris Morales]

One thing I don't understand regarding the 30+...is it really more like 15 from each turbo (the straight sum), or something more from each turbo? You might be able to tell I am not an engineer or science major.

[limeypride]

I did my research as well, building out both brands. I don't lease so this was a non-factor. I was shopping more than a year ago and a decently equipped 650 pushed into RS7 pricing (don't even think there was a performance model at the time so the RS7 was around $120k). BMW option pricing is almost as bad as Porsche. It was the same with the 640- to get a BMW with similar options pushed the 640 right into S7 pricing.

I understand what you're saying and I believe that you believe it [:)] but my first-hand experience across 8 BMWs--6 of which were brand new M-cars--as well as the brief search I did yesterday just don't support your conclusions. There are 100s of example cars on Cars.com that support my data and none that help me understand how you concluded that BMWs are effectively more expensive.

- BMW <x>50xDrive models align to Audi S models--the pricing is very similar
- BMW M (non-Competition) models align to Audi RS (Prestige) models--the pricing is very similar
- BMW M models with the Competition Package align to Audi RS Performance models--the pricing is nearly identical

BMW leases are definitely more favorable than Audi leases but that's in part because dealerships seem willing to negotiate hard--the residuals also help lease pricing a great deal. I've never bought a BMW new so I can't say for sure if they'd discount similarly but I can't imagine why they wouldn't.

[DGVR6]

One thing I don't understand regarding the 30+...is it really more like 15 from each turbo (the straight sum), or something more from each turbo? You might be able to tell I am not an engineer or science major.

Its bit more complicated than that.. it’s more about the flow from the Turbos and what psi the manifold is reading.

But the volume from each Turbo will almost always be equal so I guess you can say half and half to simplify it

[p3u]

One thing I don't understand regarding the 30+...is it really more like 15 from each turbo (the straight sum), or something more from each turbo? You might be able to tell I am not an engineer or science major.

Boost is not the sum of pressure from each turbo, it is constant. Volume would be the summation from each however.

[AUDIofil]

I thought in twin turbo setup, each turbo is feeding half of the engine cylinders. So, if this is true, each turbo would be creating 30 PSI, and engine would have 30 PSI as well.

[DGVR6]

30 psi is 30 psi no matter if there’s one Turbo or 2.

The difference is the volume of air rather than psi.. you can get 30 psi from one turbo but only 1000cfm , 30 psi from 2 Turbos and get 2000cfm. So 30+30=30

[Ze_Nardo6]

So 30+30=30

All those dollars/years wasted on my accounting and finance degrees [facepalm]

[DGVR6]

All those dollars/years wasted on my accounting and finance degrees [facepalm]

Lol, not literally but literally