Stacking Chipwerke with Stage 2? (not dual pulley)

[SR7D1]

I have a CW-S installed right now, been running it for about 8 months and love it. Pulling the trigger on a GIAC Stage 2 FORGE tune and TCU tune later this week. I know guys stack this on a DP tune but was curious to see if it was effective/useful on a Stage 2 tune? I have no plans of selling since I was going to upgrade to DP next summer, but wondered if there was any advantage to running it with the Stage 2 tune?

Also, and maybe there are only a few guys that can answer this, but as companies dial in the DP tune for our 3.0's, will there be any need to stack the CW? Or is the only reason stacking occurs now, is simply because there really was no specific DP tune to begin with?

PS. I broke one of the factory MAF sensors when attempting to remove the harness this morning. Must have been too cold, 19* to be exact. Does anyone know where to get a replacement?

[whiped]

You shouldn't need the CW anymore unless you plan on doing something abnormal. Stage II with the dedicated tune will work best without the CW interfering.

If you decide to go DP before purchasing a DP tune than the CW could be used to control bleeding boost up top on the stage II tune.


With a proper tune there is no need to use the CW. This is true regardless of stage.


As for the MAF sensor, I believe this is correct but I am not positive: https://www.ecstuning.com/b-genuine-volkswagen-audi-parts/map-sensor/03c906051f/

Here are a few non-OEM ones: https://www.ecstuning.com/Search/SiteSearch/03C906051F/

[SR7D1]

You shouldn't need the CW anymore unless you plan on doing something abnormal. Stage II with the dedicated tune will work best without the CW interfering.

If you decide to go DP before purchasing a DP tune than the CW could be used to control bleeding boost up top on the stage II tune.


With a proper tune there is no need to use the CW. This is true regardless of stage.


As for the MAF sensor, I believe this is correct but I am not positive: https://www.ecstuning.com/b-genuine-volkswagen-audi-parts/map-sensor/03c906051f/

Here are a few non-OEM ones: https://www.ecstuning.com/Search/SiteSearch/03C906051F/

Awesome, thanks Geoff! [hail] But the connector I broke is not the one attached to the engine, it's the MALE part the CONNECTS to the female receiver on the engine. I will start searching ECS, did not know they had those parts?

[whiped]

Awesome, thanks Geoff! [hail] But the connector I broke is not the one attached to the engine, it's the MALE part the CONNECTS to the female receiver on the engine. I will start searching ECS, did not know they had those parts?

Ouch that sucks [:(]

If you have a tool to remove the pins from the connector you should be able to replace only the plastic bit.

[Brother Owl]

Iirc you want the GIAC AWE tune, not the Forge file, as the Forge file doesn't request as much boost and will probably be less effective with a CW stacked. Maybe someone can confirm?

[whiped]

Iirc you want the GIAC AWE tune, not the Forge file, as the Forge file doesn't request as much boost and will probably be less effective with a CW stacked. Maybe someone can confirm?

I know he confirmed with Connie@GIAC that the two files were the same

He plans to log after it is flashed so we should know conclusively then.

[awwturbo]

Iirc you want the GIAC AWE tune, not the Forge file, as the Forge file doesn't request as much boost and will probably be less effective with a CW stacked. Maybe someone can confirm?


I know he confirmed with Connie@GIAC that the two files were the same

He plans to log after it is flashed so we should know conclusively then.

Unless they changed the Forge file, they are not the same as AWE's file. I run the Forge file and have done extensive logs on them. The forge file on the 93 setting does not call for the timing the AWE does. It is more conservative. Boost is good and I hold consistent 15-16.5psi depending on ambient temps/IAT.

[SR7D1]

Geoff is right. I spoke to 3 people at GIAC and everyone told me the files were the same. Perhaps they did change that to match AWE? So, I will take take their word on it, then log once I have the file and report back. Awwturbo, Loe did tell me what you have just mentioned. We will see. The holiday price of the FORGE file left me with enough money to buy the TCU tune, so that is why I went that direction. GIAC does give a 30 day guarantee, correct?

[awwturbo]

Iirc you want the GIAC AWE tune, not the Forge file, as the Forge file doesn't request as much boost and will probably be less effective with a CW stacked. Maybe someone can confirm?


Geoff is right. I spoke to 3 people at GIAC and everyone told me the files were the same. Perhaps they did change that to match AWE? So, I will take take their word on it, then log once I have the file and report back. Awwturbo, Loe did tell me what you have just mentioned. We will see. The holiday price of the FORGE file left me with enough money to buy the TCU tune, so that is why I went that direction. GIAC does give a 30 day guarantee, correct?

Going with this setup is the best bang for your buck. With the CTS pulley and tune it cost me only $250 plus labor for install of the pulley. Better than paying AWE's $895...

I plan on going with the Dual Pulley file this spring, so the Forge file was/is a good setup till then. I'm not sure if GIAC has the 30-day guarantee like APR does. But overall I have been happy with going to stage 2 from stage 1. The car definitely runs more beast mode in the lower revs and in this weather it is absolutely smiles whenever I drive :)

[Loe]

They may have changed something with the forge file, ive seen 3 logs from 3 different cars and they all show near 0 corrections across the board but only hit 17-18* (maybe 19*), less than the 22-23* on the awe file. These were pump logs.


Also fwiw, the giac stage 2 files request similar boost across either file, and they both bleed 10-12% in the mid range to 5200 when the bypass closes completely...makes you wonder how even stge 2 fils are as strong as they are with GIAC.

[13ttaz]

I too have been told by a couple of the good folks at GIAC (Seth and Logan) that the the same stage 2 ECU file is used presently whether the vehicle has the AWE or Forge/Emmanuele pulley. Given how easy it is to log timing and boost values and compare notes, it's doubtful that GIAC would be misspeaking on this point.

[SR7D1]

My install is scheduled for this Thursday afternoon. I have never logged with VCDS, but I have one now and will read the thread that jran76 created and go from there. It's cold here in Ohio so given the right road conditions, I should be able to max out timing and report back here with results.

[whiped]

Grab a few before and after logs.

You can post them here and we will dissect them [:)]

[bhvrdr]

They may have changed something with the forge file, ive seen 3 logs from 3 different cars and they all show near 0 corrections across the board but only hit 17-18* (maybe 19*), less than the 22-23* on the awe file. These were pump logs.


Also fwiw, the giac stage 2 files request similar boost across either file, and they both bleed 10-12% in the mid range to 5200 when the bypass closes completely...makes you wonder how even stge 2 fils are as strong as they are with GIAC.

Yup and i've been talking to GIAC folks and also PM,ing sales at GIAC and they did tell me the Forge file was specifically designed for a bit of a smaller pulley than the AWE which makes sense they went a little more conservative with the timing. Will be VERY good to see logs from SR7D1 because logs from even recent purchases of the forge file are showing that it is quite different. I'd be interested to know when the change was made since Unitronic has no file for my car yet.

Mike

[SR7D1]

Grab a few before and after logs.

You can post them here and we will dissect them [:)]

You got it. I predict a real mess, my laptop has a battery that lasts about 5 min, so I will have the power cord and an inverter hooked up to make all this goodness happen!

(I guess there is a way to "export" the logs from VCDS, heading over to that thread now...)

[whiped]

You got it. I predict a real mess, my laptop has a battery that lasts about 5 min, so I will have the power cord and an inverter hooked up to make all this goodness happen!

(I guess there is a way to "export" the logs from VCDS, heading over to that thread now...)

VCDS will spit out a CSV file. Just copy that into a google sheet and post the link here.

[bhvrdr]

You got it. I predict a real mess, my laptop has a battery that lasts about 5 min, so I will have the power cord and an inverter hooked up to make all this goodness happen!

(I guess there is a way to "export" the logs from VCDS, heading over to that thread now...)


I used to run the serial cable version of RossTech and had a laptop that was around 15 years old that I had to rig a converter up to also, lol. Takes me back. Trust me, get a MS Surface when you can :) Your logs will open in Excel and then you can upload them to a place like google docs. If you can weed out the WOT run only in the logs to clean them up it will avoid people interpreting them incorrectly. If you need any assist on the logging, just PM me. Be pleased to go over it with you on the phone or whatever.

Mike

[SR7D1]

Awesome, thanks guys! I am excited to help out! I am removing the CW tonight after work, then I will be able to run a before and after.

[SR7D1]

I used to run the serial cable version of RossTech and had a laptop that was around 15 years old that I had to rig a converter up to also, lol. Takes me back. Trust me, get a MS Surface when you can :) Your logs will open in Excel and then you can upload them to a place like google docs. If you can weed out the WOT run only in the logs to clean them up it will avoid people interpreting them incorrectly. If you need any assist on the logging, just PM me. Be pleased to go over it with you on the phone or whatever.

Mike

Proud owner of a refurbished MS Surface Pro 3! I have to install VCDS on it and run all the updates, but this will be easier that that old laptop!

[SR7D1]

Tune is installed, now I just have to log. Not easy with the Holidays, so after the first of the year I will have some logs to look at, might go up and visit Primetime, he said he may have a few places for us to get logs. Happy New Year everyone!

[SR7D1]

Hey everyone! Well, Primetime and I logged the car on Saturday and I have posted the link below. To review, I have the GAIC FORGE Stage 2 files and TCU tune. Here are some things I can share about that day:

Temperature was 30-32* out and we did not log IAT's because of how cold it was.

Plugs have about 8 months use, factory specs/gap. Car has 60K miles and PLM heat exchanger.

I am running straight 93 octane gas. So therefore these logs are on the 93 file from GIAC.

Tracks are closed up here so we went to "Mexico" to log. [:D]

So, I am not sure that the FORGE is the same as the AWE file? And, I know only enough about what to look for as relayed to me by Ron, what do you guys think?



https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B83BmFO1wLpNcU9LZWItNEdIMnc/view?usp=sharing

[bhvrdr]

Same issues the other two of us had. This file is not good imo.

It wants to do 20 degrees of timing vut even in good temps with decent fuel it is,knock retarding down to 15 degrees. As soon as i remove the program the knock retard went away. The boost targets are way off too. Honestly i would not pay for that file. The only way you could perform well with it is running race gas and stacking a cw on it

[Loe]

Hey everyone! Well, Primetime and I logged the car on Saturday and I have posted the link below. To review, I have the GAIC FORGE Stage 2 files and TCU tune. Here are some things I can share about that day:

Temperature was 30-32* out and we did not log IAT's because of how cold it was.

Plugs have about 8 months use, factory specs/gap. Car has 60K miles and PLM heat exchanger.

I am running straight 93 octane gas. So therefore these logs are on the 93 file from GIAC.

Tracks are closed up here so we went to "Mexico" to log. [:D]

So, I am not sure that the FORGE is the same as the AWE file? And, I know only enough about what to look for as relayed to me by Ron, what do you guys think?



https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B83BmFO1wLpNcU9LZWItNEdIMnc/view?usp=sharing

ignition timing isn't bad, considering the amount of corrections you had. You hit 17.5-18.3* peak in a few areas up top, and you did hit 19.125* with a -1.875* of correction in one area. If you add back in the corrections, you'll hit closer to 20-21*. I would be curious to see where your IAT's went, even in cold weather, the S/C will heat up those IAT's since looks like the runs were done with 3-5 minutes in between each other (or at least as far as I can tell via the VCDS timestamp).

Also, the specified charge pressures are in the 2000-2250hPa range across the majority of the board, this is pretty typical on stage II files that I've seen across several tuners and right where they should be to keep the bypass closed. With that being said, I am able to hit a few degrees higher on timing targets on my AWE stage II file, and my specified charge pressures were higher up top (normally in the 2300-2400hPa range, unobtainable for a standard stage II set-up).

I do wonder if your correction value's are due to a winter blend? The ignition correction value's are on the higher side than I would prefer, but it doesn't seem to affect the actual timing too much, which makes me wonder if your other cylinders are seeing almost 0* of correction. How long has it been since you had the plugs changed? If so, what spark plug gap?

[bhvrdr]

The file is requesting 12.6psi at 5000rpm and then 17.8psi at 6800rpm.

Thats definitely an odd boost curve that will not keep the bpv closed at mid rpm on a stage 2 pulley. It doesnt correlate with the mechanical boost possible with this car.


Mike

[Loe]

The bleed is a normal GIAC file, I also see it on the AWE file when seeing logs on a local friend's stage II. It requests more boost the higher gears you are in, and the bleed in the mid-range doesn't seem to affect 1/4mile times too much.

[SR7D1]

ignition timing isn't bad, considering the amount of corrections you had. You hit 17.5-18.3* peak in a few areas up top, and you did hit 19.125* with a -1.875* of correction in one area. If you add back in the corrections, you'll hit closer to 20-21*. I would be curious to see where your IAT's went, even in cold weather, the S/C will heat up those IAT's since looks like the runs were done with 3-5 minutes in between each other (or at least as far as I can tell via the VCDS timestamp).

Also, the specified charge pressures are in the 2000-2250hPa range across the majority of the board, this is pretty typical on stage II files that I've seen across several tuners and right where they should be to keep the bypass closed. With that being said, I am able to hit a few degrees higher on timing targets on my AWE stage II file, and my specified charge pressures were higher up top (normally in the 2300-2400hPa range, unobtainable for a standard stage II set-up).

I do wonder if your correction value's are due to a winter blend? The ignition correction value's are on the higher side than I would prefer, but it doesn't seem to affect the actual timing too much, which makes me wonder if your other cylinders are seeing almost 0* of correction. How long has it been since you had the plugs changed? If so, what spark plug gap?

Loe, thank you for chiming in! I am running the NGK 94460 PFR8S8EG with the factory gap. They have about 8 months/10K miles on them.

So are you saying that this is the same map that is on the AWE file? I can run a few gallons of E85 (or straight 104) on the next logs if you think that the gas is having an adverse effect?

[bhvrdr]

The map is not responding well to 93 octane. If you put e85 in you're going to see much more timing be able to be utilized. The boost bleed is unfortunate but as Loe said, if you keep the shifting at a 7000rpm redline your quarter mile times wont take much of a hit on that. Around town acceleration from low-mid to upper mid will suffer from it.

Mike

[kelseysautobody]

How do you calculate your actual and requested boost in PSI? Is there a setting in VCDS or are you doing a manual conversion?

[SR7D1]

Thanks Mike. Like I mentioned in previous threads, this is not a 1/4 mile trailer queen. [:D] It's a DD with occasional road track use. Optimally I'd like max performance on 93 octane, maybe run the 104 file at a drag strip, too expensive to run 104 on the road course because we use around 2 tanks of fuel during the day! I have reached out to GIAC and will let everyone know what I hear. They have been really good at communication when I was contemplating this FORGE file purchase.

[bhvrdr]

If you want to get EXTREMELY close you just first realize that hpa and millibar is the same. Then you realize that ambient anywhere near sea level is around 1000mbar. You just hack that off the top and then multiply whats left over x 14.5psi = 1 bar. So if you have 1850mbar (hpa) then you get rid of 1000 and you have .850 bar (which is 850mbar) x 14.5 = 12.3psi = way too low for stage 2 boost ;)


The other way is that you can just idle the car or turn the ignition on and take a VCDS reading of ambient pressure and subtract that. I've found it to be usually around 980mbar to 1010mbar so it really makes no significant difference for me at my altitude to just estimate at 1000mbar.

Mike

[Loe]

Loe, thank you for chiming in! I am running the NGK 94460 PFR8S8EG with the factory gap. They have about 8 months/10K miles on them.

So are you saying that this is the same map that is on the AWE file? I can run a few gallons of E85 (or straight 104) on the next logs if you think that the gas is having an adverse effect?

I would check the gap next time around. I'm finding that .028" is ideal (at least for my application).

[kelseysautobody]

Thanks for the lesson Mike, works perfectly now on my unit converter when you take off that 1000mbar [up]

[SR7D1]

OK, ran a few logs on Saturday and I have posted them here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B83BmFO1wLpNT1ZoZ1ZzMnFqWFU/view?usp=sharing

I tried to clean up the logs myself and copied the formulas Primetime gave me earlier in the month.

[Loe]

your logs look almost identical to an AWE pump file in both timing and boost request (i'm comparing them as we speak on my personal laptop). I'm chalking your first set of logs as bad winter gas, because the logs now look more like a normal 93 pump fuel AWE file.

This is comparing rpm to rpm for each. I've seen 22.5-23* on my AWE file, however this was closer to 7,000 rpm; I would see 21-22* at 6800 - 6900 rpm, similar to what you are seeing.

[kelseysautobody]

Looks like adding the E85 really cleaned up your logs. No timing pull and very little boost bleed in mid range RPM's. Are you running an upgraded coolant pump with your PLM kit or just the hx and reservoir? What were ambient conditions?

[SR7D1]

Looks like adding the E85 really cleaned up your logs. No timing pull and very little boost bleed in mid range RPM's. Are you running an upgraded coolant pump with your PLM kit or just the hx and reservoir? What were ambient conditions?

I am not running the upgraded pump, and the PLM is not divorced and has the additional reservoir. Temps were about 55* @ 10 am that day. Loe's response is refreshing, the timing requests matching the AWE file is an excellent discovery! And I agree that the Winter gas is a factor, but are the boost levels low for a Stage 2 tune? I would have thought they would be higher?

[Loe]

I am not running the upgraded pump, and the PLM is married to the stock system with the additional reservoir. Temps were about 55* @ 10 am that day. Loe's response is refreshing, the timing requests matching the AWE file is an excellent discovery! And I agree that the Winter gas is a factor, but are the boost levels low for a Stage 2 tune? I would have thought they would be higher?

Once your bypass is fully closed, boost is simply a function of the blower + outside conditions, the AWE file bleeds in the midrange as well as they both request between 1800hPa - 1900hPa up to 5,200 rpm (yes even though the blower is capable of more, this is how GIAC specs their files). Since you aren't bleeding after 5,200 rpm, I would consider it normal unless the calculation is off.

it should not affect part-throttle response, because the bypass is usually not fully closed during part-throttle situations (25-35% throttle), so you are bleeding regardless during this type of driving. To answer your main question of the thread, yes a chipwerke would cure some of that mid-range boost at WOT, however you run the risk of the car not liking the chipwerke stacked with it. If this file translates onto the dragstrip, you should be seeing identical times to those running an AWE file.

Would love to see some straight 93 logs once you guys are out of the winter blends up there, but I'm thinking by then you'll be in dual-pulley mode :)

[bhvrdr]

OK, ran a few logs on Saturday and I have posted them here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B83BmFO1wLpNT1ZoZ1ZzMnFqWFU/view?usp=sharing

I tried to clean up the logs myself and copied the formulas Primetime gave me earlier in the month.


Unfortunately thats what I suspected would happen. You had to run e85 in order to stop knock retarding so badly. I found the same thing.

Before we blame this on "bad gas" its important to note I run Shell 93 and had the same issue and this file is supposedly timed for any fuel down to california 91 octane. I'd just say its too aggressive for the 93 octane you had in your tank. I'd go back an run more 93 octane before i'd say it was "bad gas." I suspect it was just regular old 93 octane gas.


The boost profile remains odd. As you can see you're requesting still down at or below 13psi anywhere below 5100rpm. If you get a TCU program or are shifting at a 7200rpm redline it shouldnt cost you too much performance in a 1/4 mile run since you be shifting out of that range anyways. You will be missing some nice passing power around town or freeways in that mid rpm range.

If you have to keep that program, just be aware that youre going to want to run some e85 or race gas and then stack a CW on it (to keep the bp closed) to see the max benefit from it.

Mike

[SR7D1]

Once your bypass is fully closed, boost is simply a function of the blower + outside conditions, the AWE file bleeds in the midrange as well as they both request between 1800hPa - 1900hPa up to 5,200 rpm (yes even though the blower is capable of more, this is how GIAC specs their files). Since you aren't bleeding after 5,200 rpm, I would consider it normal unless the calculation is off.

it should not affect part-throttle response, because the bypass is usually not fully closed during part-throttle situations (25-35% throttle), so you are bleeding regardless during this type of driving. To answer your main question of the thread, yes a chipwerke would cure some of that mid-range boost at WOT, however you run the risk of the car not liking the chipwerke stacked with it. If this file translates onto the dragstrip, you should be seeing identical times to those running an AWE file.

Would love to see some straight 93 logs once you guys are out of the winter blends up there, but I'm thinking by then you'll be in dual-pulley mode :)

Thanks Loe! I appreciate all of your input on this. So in the Summer, with better fuel, won't the higher ambient temperature offset the better fuel? I imagine I will be seeing the same delta? I would anxious to move up to dual-pulley once that is available.

Also, due to my error of being in "Mexico", I forgot to put the car in Dynamic mode and did not turn off traction control (ASR). [:|]

[Loe]

Thanks Loe! I appreciate all of your input on this. So in the Summer, with better fuel, won't the higher ambient temperature offset the better fuel? I imagine I will be seeing the same delta? I would anxious to move up to dual-pulley once that is available.

Also, due to my error of being in "Mexico", I forgot to put the car in Dynamic mode and did not turn off traction control (ASR). [:|]

I'm thinking it will run fine, I can send you some of my 93 octane logs from my beta testing when I get on my home laptop (was tested in 90*F + heat). Off the top of my head, I saw some corrections, but nothing too bad ( -1 to -2 * here and there ) and it would top out at 19-20* in non-dynamic mode as well (6,800 - 6,850 rpm shift points).

[awwturbo]

OK, ran a few logs on Saturday and I have posted them here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B83BmFO1wLpNT1ZoZ1ZzMnFqWFU/view?usp=sharing

I tried to clean up the logs myself and copied the formulas Primetime gave me earlier in the month.

When I ran my car towards the end of summer and in some summer heat. The timing wouldn't achieve more than 18-19 degrees on straight 93. To really make the Forge file shine it requires race fuel which i ran a blend of 93/100. And it preferred the "race file" over the "pump file".

It's nice to see the timing up there with some E85. But at the end of the day there still is a difference between the AWE and Forge files.

[kelseysautobody]

I am not running the upgraded pump, and the PLM is married to the stock system with the additional reservoir. Temps were about 55* @ 10 am that day.

Just to be clear, you are running both the factory hx and PLM hx in a series? I thought the PLM kit eliminates the stock one? Sorry for the thread jack

[whiped]

Just to be clear, you are running both the factory hx and PLM hx in a series? I thought the PLM kit eliminates the stock one? Sorry for the thread jack

No, the factory HX is removed. His system is just still married to the main loop.

@Greg, I will be getting a proper Stage II tune put on my car this friday.

Revo's tune is pretty conservative so I will be logging and decide if stacking the CW ontop is worth it.

I will be keeping my CW though as I will use it for DP until I decide what tune I want to use from there.

[SR7D1]

No, the factory HX is removed. His system is just still married to the main loop.

@Greg, I will be getting a proper Stage II tune put on my car this friday.

Revo's tune is pretty conservative so I will be logging and decide if stacking the CW ontop is worth it.

I will be keeping my CW though as I will use it for DP until I decide what tune I want to use from there.

Thanks Geoff, I will be anxious to hear how it works out, you can hit me up text/PM off line if you want.

Kelsey, when you install the PLM, the factory cooler goes away. But there is a thread around here somewhere a guy in the UK used both factory and aftermarket setup.

[SR7D1]

Just to be clear, you are running both the factory hx and PLM hx in a series? I thought the PLM kit eliminates the stock one? Sorry for the thread jack

Let me go back and fix that post if it's confusing. Sorry. All I really meant to say is that I did not divorce the system when I installed the PLM.

[kelseysautobody]

Thanks for the clarification