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View Full Version : Best Turbo to get 270awhp without Building motor



ActiveMonkey
11-07-2016, 04:08 PM
I plan on going stage 3 but there are so many options out there i would like to hear people opinions.

My goal is 250-270 awhp.

zandrew
11-07-2016, 04:18 PM
Gt2560r would be able and spool faster then the others. It would be my pick. It's very close to gt2860rs size, 46.5mm inducer and 60mm exducer vs 47.2 mm inducer and the 60mm exducer. It's also called a gt28r but it's not a true gt28 turbine. If you want something you could upgrade later on and get some more pony out of it gt2871r, I ran one one my stock engine for awhile with no issues.

MetalMan
11-07-2016, 04:19 PM
Is E85 an option for you? My FrankenTurbo kit (old non-mixed-flow version) with upgraded connecting rods and everything upgraded did 277 awhp and 309 ft-lbs @ the wheels:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/4x4pede/Audi%20A4/Engine_Turbo_Build/Dyno-Travis_A4-1.8T_F21-E85_9-30-16_zps8tsqm9kh.jpg

This also has better spool than anything GT28 (I would know, my B6 is APR Stage 3+ which uses a GT2860RS). Seriously, I have full boost ~3,000 RPM.

Also FrankenTurbo has the benefit of looking stock and working with a factory cat / airbox for California SMOG check. Every 2 years I am simply able to swap back to stock cat and intercooler to pass SMOG.

ActiveMonkey
11-07-2016, 04:25 PM
E85 is not an option. This must be tuned on 91 only. No methanol or other additives.

B5nDisciple
11-07-2016, 07:27 PM
E85 is not an option. This must be tuned on 91 only. No methanol or other additives.

While it is the low end of your goal...
I'm guessing the mixed flow F21 will be right around 250 awhp on 91. I'm pretty sure my setup is. I made 286 awhp on E85. Stock block. And I run on 91 for the winter.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161108/14586066c272a52299b8a705f3f78877.jpg

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MetalMan
11-08-2016, 07:33 AM
E85 is not an option. This must be tuned on 91 only. No methanol or other additives.

Are you at all concerned with the California SMOG testing situation? For example, if you go with a FrankenTurbo kit or an Eliminator, your setup will still look fairly stock and it would be easy enough to swap in a stock cat.

b6Hate4
11-08-2016, 07:48 AM
Elim exhaust housing with a comp chra

ActiveMonkey
11-08-2016, 07:49 AM
Are you at all concerned with the California SMOG testing situation? For example, if you go with a FrankenTurbo kit or an Eliminator, your setup will still look fairly stock and it would be easy enough to swap in a stock cat.

This would be ideal so I wouldn't need to "find a guy"

Seerlah
11-08-2016, 08:00 AM
Elim exhaust housing with a comp chra

Totally forgot about this option.

Believer
11-08-2016, 08:10 AM
I have the F21 mixed flow. Based on the airflows I see and the physical limitations of it's ability to boost past a certain point, on 91, 250 awhp is not possible. The most I've seen on the Motoza road dyno with 93 and meth is 244 awtq and 235 awhp and the motor is built. That is not a real dyno, but I trust that it is fairly close.

My vote was for the 28r that Zandrew mentioned, but there will still be compromises in your spool characteristics (read: more gradual) with not having forged rods. That turbo still spools very fast, makes very good torque and will absolutely, given time, break rods if not tuned correctly.

ActiveMonkey
11-08-2016, 08:15 AM
Elim exhaust housing with a comp chra

I am unfamiliar with the term "Comp chra" please explain...

Believer
11-08-2016, 08:17 AM
I am unfamiliar with the term "Comp chra" please explain...

He's saying use a Comp Turbo center hub rotating assembly (chra) with an eliminator turbine housing.

rolandoa1324
11-08-2016, 08:27 AM
I have a brand new stock turbo with a test pipe, cold air intake and a tune and I can keep up with new wrx and some old g35 so I should be pushing like 240 at least but I need to dyno to make sure


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rolandoa1324
11-08-2016, 08:32 AM
But I want to get more top end hp so what turbo or other mods would you guys recommend?


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ActiveMonkey
11-08-2016, 08:37 AM
I have a brand new stock turbo with a test pipe, cold air intake and a tune and I can keep up with new wrx and some old g35 so I should be pushing like 240 at least but I need to dyno to make sure

But I want to get more top end hp so what turbo or other mods would you guys recommend?

Thread hijacking attempts aside, no way in hell a B5 with a stock turbo, k03 or k03s, tuned or not is pulling 240... Am I missing something?

genecan
11-08-2016, 08:42 AM
GT2560R is a small turbo. I had it with a regular and agressive tune for pump gas. Both dynoed and were far away from from 250 awhp. If you decide to push it further you need to build your engine. Ask me how I know this.

Best choice is a GT28XXR or B1 framed EFR or comparable turbo from other brand - all of them tuned for late boost translating into a laggy car. If you tune for early boost - you need to build your engine. You can not have it all...

b6Hate4
11-08-2016, 08:46 AM
Thread hijacking attempts aside, no way in hell a B5 with a stock turbo, k03 or k03s, tuned or not is pulling 240... Am I missing something?

Not missing anything. Thats a load of shit, those are ko4 numbers. He might be confused as to WHP/CHP

genecan
11-08-2016, 08:49 AM
240 for K04 may be for CHP, but kind of too high number, especially on pump gas.

ActiveMonkey
11-08-2016, 08:52 AM
rolandoa1324 - I looked at your profile and realized you are a pretty new member. Do you have a B5? Your avatar looks like a B7. What kind of car do you have?

rolandoa1324
11-08-2016, 08:52 AM
I'm sorry lol and I have a b8


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b6Hate4
11-08-2016, 09:58 AM
Typical b8'er.

rolandoa1324
11-08-2016, 10:27 AM
I have 2010 b8 I got it almost a year ago and I just started fixing it up 2 months ago:) but I didn't do my history and found out about the oil problem the hard way and I need to fix that asap


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ActiveMonkey
11-08-2016, 11:03 AM
What do people think of the GT2867? Middle ground between GT28rs and GT2871.

Seerlah
11-08-2016, 11:42 AM
Typical b8'er.

Play nice guise...knewb thought he knew!!!

MrSnickelsnizer
11-08-2016, 01:22 PM
K04....
http://www.ebay.com/itm/122006738662?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
bought one haven't installed. It would good up to 250ish.

nunya
11-08-2016, 01:28 PM
I plan on going stage 3 but there are so many options out there i would like to hear people opinions.

My goal is 250-270 awhp.

Good luck getting 270whp on 034's dyno without a built motor. :-)

--dillon

ActiveMonkey
11-08-2016, 02:27 PM
Their dyno is well known to being tough.

nunya
11-08-2016, 02:47 PM
Ive been on it many times. I got 364 on my best pull on pump gas. I got 308 before the IE intake manifold. For you to get 270 on a stock motor if going to be hard, and very risky. I personally dont think nate would tune it that high on a stock motor. He stops at the point it puts the motor at risk, then dials back a little.

--dillon

zandrew
11-08-2016, 02:49 PM
Hp is kind of a lame request. I say that since hp is a derivative of torque when considering time, or distance traveled. In the case of an engine distance traveled is rpm. I say this since 270awhp at 5250nrpm is completely different then 270awhp at 6500 rpm. Case in point it would require 270 lb ft to create 270 awhp at 5250 and it would only require 218 lb ft at 6500. The same 218 lb ft at 5250 would only make 218 awhp.

So you have to ask yourself how far do you want to rev and how much lag can you tolerate. You can get there with 2560r (may require a small trick) and it still have plenty of torque to not be a lame-O.

B5nDisciple
11-08-2016, 04:15 PM
I have the F21 mixed flow. Based on the airflows I see and the physical limitations of it's ability to boost past a certain point, on 91, 250 awhp is not possible. The most I've seen on the Motoza road dyno with 93 and meth is 244 awtq and 235 awhp and the motor is built. That is not a real dyno, but I trust that it is fairly close.

My vote was for the 28r that Zandrew mentioned, but there will still be compromises in your spool characteristics (read: more gradual) with not having forged rods. That turbo still spools very fast, makes very good torque and will absolutely, given time, break rods if not tuned correctly.
Makes me want to dyno it on 91 to see where it comes in... :)

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b6Hate4
11-08-2016, 04:21 PM
Hp is kind of a lame request. I say that since hp is a derivative of torque when considering time, or distance traveled. In the case of an engine distance traveled is rpm. I say this since 270awhp at 5250nrpm is completely different then 270awhp at 6500 rpm. Case in point it would require 270 lb ft to create 270 awhp at 5250 and it would only require 218 lb ft at 6500. The same 218 lb ft at 5250 would only make 218 awhp.

So you have to ask yourself how far do you want to rev and how much lag can you tolerate. You can get there with 2560r (may require a small trick) and it still have plenty of torque to not be a lame-O.

This.

Also OP is 270hp the goal with the widest powerband possible?

ActiveMonkey
11-08-2016, 04:24 PM
250-270awhp with full boost no later than 3500rpm is the goal.

I like driving in the tight twisties and the above goal would fit my driving style.

genecan
11-08-2016, 04:37 PM
EFR 6255 is your turbo, but you need rods for safety. This power field is very much on the edge. As I said above, early spool and boost will smash your stock rods at the required power level.

...or keep ypur stock engine and decrease power expectations.

Believer
11-08-2016, 05:03 PM
Makes me want to dyno it on 91 to see where it comes in... :)

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I'm not saying you should but ya you should :)

b6Hate4
11-08-2016, 05:14 PM
250-270awhp with full boost no later than 3500rpm is the goal.

I like driving in the tight twisties and the above goal would fit my driving style.

Get a 2.7.

ActiveMonkey
11-08-2016, 05:55 PM
Get a 2.7.

Hard pass

zandrew
11-08-2016, 05:57 PM
250-270awhp with full boost no later than 3500rpm is the goal.

I like driving in the tight twisties and the above goal would fit my driving style.

You need rods, really. With a low rpm boost onset it's going to be stressing the rods.

You can buy the gt2560r for less then $800 new. It's a really good turbo for the cost. It was the stock turbo on the s15 Silvia sr20det. AWE used it in a kit. The gt2860rs is a step up and will make a good bit more but almost guaranteed to detonate rods if you are not really careful.

Genecan- borg warner does not make the 6255 anymore, they make a 6258 which is a gt2860rs on roids.

You can not get me to buy a comp turbo.

ActiveMonkey
11-08-2016, 06:04 PM
Would rods be the only thing I'd need? [wrench]

genecan
11-08-2016, 06:09 PM
You need rods, really. With a low rpm boost onset it's going to be stressing the rods.

Genecan- borg warner does not make the 6255 anymore, they make a 6258 which is a gt2860rs on roids.

You are right. I just recetly saw a local company selling a handfull of 6255 and I thought they are back, but I guess they were just old stock. 6258 let it be.

I smashed rods with GT2560R, so it is not as safe as many people think it is.

b6Hate4
11-08-2016, 06:28 PM
Hard pass

Hah, I know I was trolling. I liked my BT 1.8t, they are fun as hell! [drive]

Sumo337
11-08-2016, 08:39 PM
I run:
Apr intake
42dd 3" straight piped turbo back
Forge DV - yellow spring (19-23psi)
550cc injectors
Ra4 clutch kit
Frankenturbo F21 Kit
tuned - 21psi
I'm not totally sure wheel HP, but I'm around 270-280hp, not sure TQ. I do have turbo lag, but when 21psi hits, it hits HARD. I destroy slight-modified mk5-mk6 gti's.

B5nDisciple
11-08-2016, 09:20 PM
I'm not saying you should but ya you should :)
Yeah that definitely won't happen realistically. I agree though. The F21 is just below the OP's goal on 91.

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A1 A2 German
11-08-2016, 11:48 PM
No need to mess around, go Gt2871R Elim on tubular stainless mainfold:

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e259/Blakelikesfood333/Audi%20Final%20Chapter%20Build/20150921_092931_zpsqg86kads.jpg (http://s41.photobucket.com/user/Blakelikesfood333/media/Audi%20Final%20Chapter%20Build/20150921_092931_zpsqg86kads.jpg.html)

rodgertherabit
11-09-2016, 07:33 AM
if one is looking at a elim kit... why not just go with a T3 flange?

More turbo varieties... better flow possible

point being, if you're gonna buy a manifold, why stay with the small Stock flange?

rodgertherabit
11-09-2016, 07:42 AM
if one is looking at a elim kit... why not just go with a T3 flange?

More turbo varieties... better flow possible

point being, if you're gonna buy a manifold, why stay with the small Stock flange?

MetalMan
11-09-2016, 09:52 AM
if one is looking at a elim kit... why not just go with a T3 flange?

More turbo varieties... better flow possible

point being, if you're gonna buy a manifold, why stay with the small Stock flange?

Keep in mind OP is in California and already mentioned he doesn't want to have to "know a guy" to pass SMOG testing (visual check). Elim makes it MUCH easier to deal with California, for several reasons.

ActiveMonkey
11-09-2016, 11:19 AM
Keep in mind OP is in California and already mentioned he doesn't want to have to "know a guy" to pass SMOG testing (visual check). Elim makes it MUCH easier to deal with California, for several reasons.

MetalMan is correct. Since I live in California sticking with the stock flange is almost a must.

zandrew
11-09-2016, 12:32 PM
Either an Elim or franken. There are some other custom options that can get you there inside the k03 housing if your interested in them.

B5nDisciple
11-09-2016, 01:23 PM
MetalMan is correct. Since I live in California sticking with the stock flange is almost a must.
So with that being said, the Franken Turbo setup is your cheapest option (unless you find an elim setup used).

Why is E85 not an option for you? At least some of the time? The cost almost evens out from what some in Cali have communicated and you only need bigger injectors and a fuel pump. Just curious...

My setup is probably around 240 awhp on 91 but made 286 on E85.




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andyrew
11-09-2016, 01:59 PM
I absolutely loved the GT2560. Made 255whp @20psi with full supporting mods. Extremely responsive turbo.

Im sure 275whp is possible with more timing and higher octane fuel.

ActiveMonkey
11-09-2016, 11:30 PM
So with that being said, the Franken Turbo setup is your cheapest option (unless you find an elim setup used).

Why is E85 not an option for you? At least some of the time? The cost almost evens out from what some in Cali have communicated and you only need bigger injectors and a fuel pump. Just curious...

Running E85 is not an option because it's not an all the time option. Sure your car can put down 286 hp on E85 but the other 95% of the time it's only 240 hp. Just not the way I want to go.

B5nDisciple
11-10-2016, 06:34 AM
Running E85 is not an option because it's not an all the time option. Sure your car can put down 286 hp on E85 but the other 95% of the time it's only 240 hp. Just not the way I want to go.
Where is this 5% of the time coming in? It would all be dependent upon how often you filled up with it. And it's quite a bit cheaper in Cali than 91.

We're not talking about meth injection or nitrous that runs out eventually.

My car has 286 awhp for the whole tank of E85. I simply drive up and pump it into the car just as easily as pumping 91.

Percentage wise the only real difference would be price (more expensive for me in AZ), and miles per gallon/tank. I get 17 on E85 and 22 on 91.



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tar
11-10-2016, 07:56 AM
Where is this 5% of the time coming in? It would all be dependent upon how often you filled up with it. And it's quite a bit cheaper in Cali than 91.

We're not talking about meth injection or nitrous that runs out eventually.

My car has 286 awhp for the whole tank of E85. I simply drive up and pump it into the car just as easily as pumping 91.

Percentage wise the only real difference would be price (more expensive for me in AZ), and miles per gallon/tank. I get 17 on E85 and 22 on 91.



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Its coming from the fact you usually have to go 2 a far away station to fill up and fill up more often. Closest to me is 10miles in the wrong direction. Its just not very common in so cal.

B5nDisciple
11-10-2016, 08:43 AM
Its coming from the fact you usually have to go 2 a far away station to fill up and fill up more often. Closest to me is 10miles in the wrong direction. Its just not very common in so cal.
Oh okay that makes sense. I have a station about 5 miles away that is sort of out of the way for me also. I just wasn't understanding his logic with all things being equal.

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ActiveMonkey
11-10-2016, 10:54 PM
In San Francisco, I don't even know where an E85 pump is. I've heard of them around but I don't believe I've seen E85 at any gas station I frequently go to.

I'm not worried about the cost of fuel since I'm lucky enough to have a company gas card. It's much more a convenience/availability issue.

B5nDisciple
11-11-2016, 09:30 AM
In San Francisco, I don't even know where an E85 pump is. I've heard of them around but I don't believe I've seen E85 at any gas station I frequently go to.

I'm not worried about the cost of fuel since I'm lucky enough to have a company gas card. It's much more a convenience/availability issue.
Ahh gotcha. That's unfortunate. There are a lot of good options previously mentioned for 270 awhp on 91. What are you leaning towards?

Yeah just for a frame of reference the F21 on 91 is dead even with a Stage II (or stage 1...it had exhaust) WRX on the highway. I had a little fun with one last night and neither car pulled at all. Probably just a tad less power than you're looking for. I had one passenger, the WRX was just the driver.

But it's perfect for my "most of the time" needs. If I want more power (which wouldn't be available for you) I can just roll up to a nearby E85 station and have 40+ more hp by switching tunes with Motoza BTX on my cell phone.

I'm ecstatic about what Doug has done with that tiny turbo and housing with stock fitment. It still surprises me.

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nunya
11-11-2016, 12:06 PM
In San Francisco, I don't even know where an E85 pump is. I've heard of them around but I don't believe I've seen E85 at any gas station I frequently go to.

I'm not worried about the cost of fuel since I'm lucky enough to have a company gas card. It's much more a convenience/availability issue.

https://propelfuels.com/locations

--dillon

ActiveMonkey
11-11-2016, 09:26 PM
Ahh gotcha. That's unfortunate. There are a lot of good options previously mentioned for 270 awhp on 91. What are you leaning towards?

Probably leaning toward the GT2867r. I think it will really come down to the tuning. Who will be doing it and what turbo they feel most confident with.

zandrew
11-12-2016, 03:43 PM
The gt2871r is more capable then the gtx2867r. Look at dyno, and I have never been impressed with the 2867. It's supposed to offer faster spool and similar flow. While it spools slightly faster it does not match the 56 trim 71r flow.

ActiveMonkey
11-12-2016, 07:40 PM
The gt2871r is more capable then the gtx2867r. Look at dyno, and I have never been impressed with the 2867. It's supposed to offer faster spool and similar flow. While it spools slightly faster it does not match the 56 trim 71r flow.

I believe both turbos can hit 300+awhp, but given my goal of 250-270 I'd prefer the earlier spool.

zandrew
11-13-2016, 12:17 PM
Actually I don't think a gtx2867r has hit 300 awhp and I know 2 seperate builds that used them. One was built 2.0 with cams, intake manifold, the works. At the same shop a 2871r did 350 awhp. The spool really is not that big of difference. I am not trying to determine you just giving you some facts.

However if you wanna go gtx2867r Gen 2 which is an 8 blade design I'd say go for it. It does show an increase in flow (50 lb min) but less efficiency.