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View Full Version : Borg Waarner k04 or frankenturbos



zakx
08-15-2016, 01:30 PM
What do you guys prefer?

MetalMan
08-15-2016, 01:38 PM
From personal experience with FT, FT. Never tried a K04 but my car is pretty strong with a FT.

zakx
08-15-2016, 01:47 PM
are you making around 230whp?

B5nDisciple
08-15-2016, 01:55 PM
He's on E85 and has forged internals, so more like 280 awhp neighborhood.

On 91 and 20 psi, the new mixed flow will put down around 240 awhp with supporting mods.

I also love my Frankenturbo. It's awesome. I'm on E85 running ~21 psi on stock internals. The car is quick for what it is. Mid to low 13's will be easily attainable.

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xdewaynex
08-15-2016, 03:18 PM
No experience with the K04, but I love my FT F4h-l (older version). Running 440cc injectors, 3"maf housing and boosting 22psi (tuned for 25, just playing it safe). Definitely makes for a fun daily driver.

migaellefebvre
08-15-2016, 03:22 PM
He's on E85 and has forged internals, so more like 280 awhp neighborhood.

On 91 and 20 psi, the new mixed flow will put down around 240 awhp with supporting mods.

I also love my Frankenturbo. It's awesome. I'm on E85 running ~21 psi on stock internals. The car is quick for what it is. Mid to low 13's will be easily attainable.

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Surprised you're on stock block with e85.. Isnt that enough torque to blow rods? Especially with fast spool/torque spike? Sounds really fun though! What rpm do you see full boost?


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MetalMan
08-15-2016, 03:38 PM
Surprised you're on stock block with e85.. Isnt that enough torque to blow rods? Especially with fast spool/torque spike? Sounds really fun though! What rpm do you see full boost?

That's where a competent tuner comes in; they will tune torque to prevent engine damage. I ran E85 on FT on stock block for 7 months.

B5nDisciple
08-15-2016, 03:56 PM
Surprised you're on stock block with e85.. Isnt that enough torque to blow rods? Especially with fast spool/torque spike? Sounds really fun though! What rpm do you see full boost?


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The tune is "optimized" for the stock rods through Motoza. Meaning that the turbo is capable of more boost (with a different map sensor) and the fuel has more headroom for even more timing. Also, the turbo is not maxed with regard to boost and timing so spool time is slower. On the last log I sent I was told we could make it spool faster, but won't be because of the stock rods.

I think I see full boost by around 3300 but I can't quite remember.

I will edit once I drive again. E85 will hurt spool time opposed to pure gasoline and like I said, it's scaled back for stock rods.

The turbo is capable of amazing spool as documented by Old Guy in the B6 forums:

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=638964

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160815/4cd6e9c2eac793486a0e18fd6b79dd71.jpg




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migaellefebvre
08-15-2016, 04:22 PM
The tune is "optimized" for the stock rods through Motoza. Meaning that the turbo is capable of more boost (with a different map sensor) and the fuel has more headroom for even more timing. Also, the turbo is not maxed with regard to boost and timing so spool time is slower. On the last log I sent I was told we could make it spool faster, but won't be because of the stock rods.

I think I see full boost by around 3300 but I can't quite remember.

I will edit once I drive again. E85 will hurt spool time opposed to pure gasoline and like I said, it's scaled back for stock rods.

The turbo is capable of amazing spool as documented by Old Guy in the B6 forums:

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=638964

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160815/4cd6e9c2eac793486a0e18fd6b79dd71.jpg




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Sweet! So.. when are you doing rods :D


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B5nDisciple
08-15-2016, 04:28 PM
Sweet! So.. when are you doing rods :D


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Not anytime soon unless they go! Haha. I'll be dynoing once I get the custom PTP turbo blanket and install a high atomization mister system for the fmic. Should be sometime in September and then it's time for the drag strip!

If the dyno comes in below 275 torque, I have a more aggressive tune on my multi-tune controller through Motoza I can switch to which has a little bit more timing. I'm very curious to see the results. A BW K04 put down 298 awtq on E85 and Motoza lol.

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Davdraco1
08-15-2016, 06:55 PM
how much awhp is E85 putting down for you?

GOODBYNAAIR
08-15-2016, 08:51 PM
I have never had a F21 or k04 but have been in a freaken turbo car on 93 and it wakes the b5 up for sure! I would say f21 over k04 it was made to be everything the k04 could not be! fast spool + ok top end boost

zakx
08-15-2016, 11:31 PM
alot of these tuners tell me they can't tune e85 on an aeb smh

Believer
08-16-2016, 06:34 AM
alot of these tuners tell me they can't tune e85 on an aeb smh

That is because they don't want to. It can definitely be done. I don't tune but would say a wideband sensor is probably necessary.

B5nDisciple
08-16-2016, 07:47 AM
how much awhp is E85 putting down for you?
I will know once I dyno, but I'm thinking around 270 awhp, and 280 awtq. We'll see. This will be on the same Mustang dyno my car threw down 277 awtq on the stock turbo. So I am hoping to beat that as far as peak torque. Although the powerband is wayyy more linear with the F21 obviously.

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vwblackb5
08-17-2016, 05:30 AM
Chiming in on the other side of the coin, Borg-Warner KKK (K04-015) simply for longevity/reliability (have this on my B5 AEB for 8yrs/70k miles). If that doesn't matter then skip this and go to a GT series or maybe EFR route.

Believer
08-17-2016, 06:07 AM
Full discolusure - my first MF F21 failed in less than 5k miles - appeared to be a bearing failure then the turbine contacted the housing chipping a fin. My second one currently has ~13k on it and 'woos' like a siren when spooling but build a and holds boost just fine. I recently inspected the shaft play and the radial play was fairly minimal but there was some very slight axial (in and out) play. I think I'm using those terms correctly.

If it weren't for the fact that the MF outflows the BW by a decent amount I would have gone with the BW for longevity. Once this F21 fails (in pretty sure it will based on the wooing) I'm going to do one CHRA replacement through FT then move on, likely to an EFR.

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10kredline
08-17-2016, 12:38 PM
F21 here also but I'm on a verge of needing new rods. I can hear internal clunking/rubbing noise coming from the internals of the engine [headbang] as well as hesitation under full boost. But other than that, it's been running strong for 3 years now with tons of miles on it. I'm also on United Motorsports Stage 3 tune with 630cc at 22psi but I try not to go wot, I usually just drive it normally no more than 10 psi.

PsorianoPre99A4
08-18-2016, 12:37 AM
F21 here also but I'm on a verge of needing new rods. I can hear internal clunking/rubbing noise coming from the internals of the engine [headbang] as well as hesitation under full boost. But other than that, it's been running strong for 3 years now with tons of miles on it. I'm also on United Motorsports Stage 3 tune with 630cc at 22psi but I try not to go wot, I usually just drive it normally no more than 10 psi.

How many miles are on your car? I'm about to do a similar set up you have but may just get the stage 2 with 440cc injectors, 3" maf and F21..

10kredline
08-19-2016, 05:43 PM
Im at 226k now.

kruftindustries
08-20-2016, 08:00 PM
I can second the F21 except for the failure, Been running both 93 and e85 with it and I cannot complain. What B5nDisciple said was pretty much dead on, Full boost around 3k. Not quite sure about those levels of boost and power on 91 octane for a daily driver, for me, knock sensor voltage gets pretty high for my liking at pressures greater than 15psi with 93 octane but if you can stand to deal with 10 or less mpg I have yet to see knock sensor voltage go above 1v on e85 with 2-3 degrees more timing up top than my 93 tune and 20psi of boost. The car pulls pretty damn hard. On a side note, to really get anything out of a turbo you're going to need tuning software and the frankenturbo comes with a discount for a few different software packages. I went with eurodyne and there are more settings than I care to shake a stick at. If you've got a manual transmission there are already some well defined tunes for your car made and you can freely switch at will and tinker to no end. For an automatic transmission expect to omit some maps but you still get more than enough for a stage 3 tune.

For those who don't like reading:

- I like frankenturbo!
- They offer a discount on tuning software!
- For about the price of a k04 turbo by itself, you get a faster spooling, higher flowing even? turbo, with exhaust manifold and quality inlet pipe.

I did a lot of research before I decided to put any money into my car and what I came up with was F21 kit, 550cc bosch injectors, 034 downpipe, I.E. 8.5cr pistons(unnecessary expense but I was in there...) and Scat I-Beam rods. Car is definitely faster than most all older camaros and mustangs no matter how loud, and keeps up with the newer stuff out there. Tuning software makes it all come together though. Several companies offer packages that give the car a little more pep without any upgrades though, this was my stepping stone to more exotic things but I might keep it as is. /rant off