so whats up with the Revo Flash?

[KEVIN97A4]

any dyno pulls? how does it compare to APR? Can it be switched to stock like APR? How much does it cost?

[dan671]

u got any pics of your car i wanna see what black interor looks like with wood

[ECA4]

Rumor has it that the power will be about 265hp and 310tq. It should be quicker than APR's software, and unlike the APR chip which is encoded in the ecu in a way that the dealer will have a hard time finding, the Revo software comes with a controller in which you plug in the ecu outlet under the steering wheel choose a program and then let it flash into the ecu. With Revo you can take out the chipped program and go to stock when you have any dealer visits.

[Audi Skate Snow]

Originally posted by ECA4
Rumor has it that the power will be about 265hp and 310tq. It should be quicker than APR's software, and unlike the APR chip which is encoded in the ecu in a way that the dealer will have a hard time finding, the Revo software comes with a controller in which you plug in the ecu outlet under the steering wheel choose a program and then let it flash into the ecu. With Revo you can take out the chipped program and go to stock when you have any dealer visits.

Crank power yes.... i will let you guys know on wednesday. REVO/EUROCODE will post dyno graphs of my car stock and then graph with revo software.


i will tell you the numbers are nice

[gods_kitchen]

Well, sign me up. [:D]

[KEVIN97A4]

any info regarding pricing of the REVO? as far as more pics of my interior...i'l take a few shots and post them as soon as I get a chance...

[Alpha Floor]

Originally posted by ECA4
Rumor has it that the power will be about 265hp and 310tq
What's the limitation the CVT can take? How about the Quattro?

[ECA4]

I'm not to sure about the CVT, i'm sure when they release the chips for the 2.0T CVT the torque numbers will have to be lowered slightly.

Quattro is the drivetrain not the transmission, CVT is the tranny that comes with the automatic frontrac A4's. The Quattro drivetrain can hold some rediculous numbers that many people will never even get near. I remember my friend telling me that Quattro has the ability to hold in upwards of 1,000hp.

[OutkastSL]

alpha floor if you are refering to the tip quattro tranny, it's believed to handle 450lbs of tq because it's supposedly the rs6 6 speed zf tranny.

[flyinb501]

Originally posted by OutkastSL
alpha floor if you are refering to the tip quattro tranny, it's believed to handle 450lbs of tq because it's supposedly the rs6 6 speed zf tranny.

Damn! Lucky bastids. Us poor B5's can't even do a k04 without getting dangerous.

[Audi Skate Snow]

Get car back tomorrow with REVO Flash. They will post graphs im sure.

[OutkastSL]

Originally posted by flyinb501
Damn! Lucky bastids. Us poor B5's can't even do a k04 without getting dangerous.

fyi, my car was fine with a k04 until i put on the pc16. too much tq from the pc16 but the regular k04 chip would be fine for the tip tranny.

[Cassmoney]

The suspense is killin' me. I want to see those numbers.

[Jwilliams]

Its wednesday, wheres the results?

[flath12]

seriously.. theres nothin on thier wesite yet either

[Audi Skate Snow]

Patients people. The car is done and rippin. I will let REVO post the results.

Put it this way.....it feels a lot faster than a k04

[Cassmoney]

Sounds nice. Will it be posted on Revo's site? Or on here?

[Audi Skate Snow]

Im sure both. i would hope so anyways.

[obviouse]

I don't know... Revo is terrible about updating their website.

[Audi Skate Snow]

Ok well I will work on posting numbers. Just want to check if it is ok.

[A4rce1]

Cant wait to here on this one!

[Audi Skate Snow]

John you will know before anyone else considering i will see you all weekend.

[A4rce1]

good call

[AudiMan]

dude, stop being a bitch...just post the numbers, its your car, there is nothing illegal about posting your own shit, so stop kissing their ass and post the damn info

[Audi Skate Snow]

Originally posted by AudiMan
dude, stop being a bitch...just post the numbers, its your car, there is nothing illegal about posting your own shit, so stop kissing their ass and post the damn info

For that I hope you dont find out soon.

Put yourself in my position. A company does you a favor and uses your car and hooks you up with software for them to produce and sell to the public. Before the company release any information you go out and tellt he whole freakin world. I dont know about you but i would be pissed. Let them post their numbers. If they tell me I can then I will.

Yes it is my car, and Just to piss you off im going to say it is really fast and makes more power than your car!

[eek] [drive] [:D] [wrench] [race]

[AudiMan]

i'm sorry about being an asshole, i didn't know they were hooking you up with the software, i just thought you bought it and got it dynod. I certainly hope your car is faster than mine, cuz mine is slowwwwwwwww. Hopefully they or you will post some numbers soon. Oh and you gf has some nice....RIMS! peace playa!

[Audi Skate Snow]

Hahahah no worries..

yea her car is sick! im jealous

[ECA4]

The numbers are sick. Don't want to spoil the suprise, but their going to be the highest of any tuner out there "yet".

[bhvrdr]

How about we play a little number game. You give us the six numbers for the wheel horsepower and torque in whatever scrambled order you please and leave it to us to figure it out :) cheers! Mike

[AudiMan]

^^ great idea...its like a game show then...on the real, i think 265/310 is the best we can hope for, and it is a result that would meet my high expectations for the 2.0T motor. As some of you know, i have an 05 IS300, and 99 A4, i'm looking to consolidate my cars if you will into hopefully an IS350, or A4 2.0T avant!

[bhvrdr]

Unfortunately crank numbers may not mean much since we know the crank rating for the stock car is off, therefore each tuner is using slightly different correction factors. I'm interested in the baseline versus modified wheel numbers. Technially all the car would have to make is 206whp to show 265chp factoring a 22% drivetrain loss. We already have cars making that kind of power so I'm hoping there will be more. I'm excited. cheers! Mike

[Audi Skate Snow]

Originally posted by bhvrdr
Unfortunately crank numbers may not mean much since we know the crank rating for the stock car is off, therefore each tuner is using slightly different correction factors. I'm interested in the baseline versus modified wheel numbers. Technially all the car would have to make is 206whp to show 265chp factoring a 22% drivetrain loss. We already have cars making that kind of power so I'm hoping there will be more. I'm excited. cheers! Mike

the car made 180 to the wheels and 190 tq to the wheels bone stock.

I will tell you with the chip it is making a SHIT load more. IF they dont post by today i will

[DoThisMyWay]

sure you will... j/p. Those are some nice numbers, stock as is.

[$lave2BMW]

i thought giac had the highest numbers- when are all of them gonna release???

[Keith@APR]

Originally posted by ECA4
Rumor has it that the power will be about 265hp and 310tq. It should be quicker than APR's software, and unlike the APR chip which is encoded in the ecu in a way that the dealer will have a hard time finding, the Revo software comes with a controller in which you plug in the ecu outlet under the steering wheel choose a program and then let it flash into the ecu. With Revo you can take out the chipped program and go to stock when you have any dealer visits.

how do they do that? they reload the entire software in like ten seconds? nope, cause they don't. it's all the same file and the sps changes the setting of the file to act like stock or 91 or 93 or whatever as they always have with me7 cars.

unless of course this is something new they developed for the 2.0T and the sps device interfaces differently. if that was the case though, it would take upwards of 10-45 mins to completely reload the file. how long does it take to "reflash" the stock file?

[XXXX]

What if they managed to load two compressed files in the ECU and are just switching between the two with NEW SPS unit!

[Keith@APR]

Originally posted by XXXX
What if they managed to load two compressed files in the ECU and are just switching between the two with NEW SPS unit!

that would be somewhat comparable to how we do it, but I think he said that there would be no stored info on the ecu, completely stock after "reflashing", is the way I understood his post.

[DoThisMyWay]

uhh, oh... APR. Gots my appt. to get my APR flash for next Friday. I can't wait!

[Cassmoney]

DoThismyway, I'm praying it will work for you this time. :)
3rd time yea?

[XXXX]

Originally posted by Keith@APR
that would be somewhat comparable to how we do it, but I think he said that there would be no stored info on the ecu, completely stock after "reflashing", is the way I understood his post.
Are you guys enabling and disabling parts of the code or you have two different codes loaded in the ECU?

[DoThisMyWay]

Yes, for the 3rd time. HAHA! The peoples at APR are "working" with me, wink, wink... to help me with the troubles. The shop had the wrong cable. So, this time everything should go as planned.

[XXXX]

Keith,
Will the Audi dealer be able to reflash over your (APR) software when the customer brings the car for service and the dealer decides it wants to update their ECU with the latest revision of the stock program?

[Keith@APR]

Originally posted by XXXX
Are you guys enabling and disabling parts of the code or you have two different codes loaded in the ECU?

it's not quite that simple but the best comparison would be different codes loaded.

[Keith@APR]

Originally posted by XXXX
Keith,
Will the Audi dealer be able to reflash over your (APR) software when the customer brings the car for service and the dealer decides it wants to update their ECU with the latest revision of the stock program?

yes, of course.

[XXXX]

Originally posted by Keith@APR
it's not quite that simple but the best comparison would be different codes loaded.
So do you have 2 full files on the ECU or some short versions?

[Keith@APR]

Originally posted by XXXX
So do you have 2 full files on the ECU or some short versions?

alas, they are not short versions of the files or whatnot. each file is it's own specifically tuned file for each mode selected. not 1 file that is adapted to a range of situations, that would be the "backyard" way of doing it.

[Jwilliams]

Keith any update on the rumor of a chip/exhaust combo for the a4's comin out?

[Keith@APR]

working on that now. we have inventory systems we are waiting for and have a system installed on our car.

[XXXX]

Originally posted by Keith@APR
alas, they are not short versions of the files or whatnot. each file is it's own specifically tuned file for each mode selected. not 1 file that is adapted to a range of situations, that would be the "backyard" way of doing it. Not sure why would compressing (2) 2mb files (4mb total) into 2mb ECU be backyar way of tuning?

[Keith@APR]

Originally posted by XXXX
Not sure why would compressing (2) 2mb files (4mb total) into 2mb ECU be backyar way of tuning?

is that what they do now? with the me9? they've finally figured out how to compress 2 whole files? not 4?

[XXXX]

Originally posted by Keith@APR
is that what they do now? with the me9? they've finally figured out how to compress 2 whole files? not 4?
You do know that theres more places you can store more files on the ECU do you!..[;)]

[BrettAPR]

Originally posted by XXXX
You do know that theres more places you can store more files on the ECU do you!..[;)]

HEHE! Err, no there isn't...

(post number 1!)

Brett
APR

[XXXX]

Originally posted by BrettAPR
HEHE! Err, no there isn't...

(post number 1!)

Brett
APR
Maybe not for you guys..
Youd be amazed..

Keep looking thou..[;)]

[XXXX]

Anthony,
I want a free T shirt for bringing APR programmer to the site.. [race]

[Keith@APR]

Originally posted by XXXX
Anthony,
I want a free T shirt for bringing APR programmer to the site.. [race]

but you can't get any of your programmers over here huh?

[XXXX]

Originally posted by Keith@APR
but you can't get any of your programmers over here huh?
My?
You're forgeting Keith. I dont work for REVO or any other REVO related companies (dealers, suppliers etc).
I dont have open lines of communication with REVO.

Just because you hate on REVO, and you showed this on B6 and B7 forum that doesnt make your software better then theirs.
Werent you the first one to post on this REVO thread and try to put their programming down?

[BrettAPR]

Originally posted by XXXX
Maybe not for you guys..
Youd be amazed..

Keep looking thou..[;)]

Keep the posts coming. You've got us rolling on the floor! It's amazing what a slick tongue can do! (Although it seems that it can't win you a lawsuit in the end!)

Brett
APR

[XXXX]

Originally posted by BrettAPR
Keep the posts coming. You've got us rolling on the floor! It's amazing what a slick tongue can do! (Although it seems that it can't win you a lawsuit in the end!)

Brett
APR
What does a lawsuit have to do with programming?

BTW I thought it got settled.

[Anthony]

Originally posted by XXXX
Anthony,
I want a free T shirt for bringing APR programmer to the site.. [race] It'd be my pleasure. Email me your address and shirt size. [:)]

[XXXX]

Originally posted by Anthony
It'd be my pleasure. Email me your address and shirt size. [:)]
I'd post my address online but I'm afraid they'll be sending me a suicide bomber.

[ECA4]

Originally posted by XXXX
What if they managed to load two compressed files in the ECU and are just switching between the two with NEW SPS unit!
Thats the same way I described it, the load takes around 10 min. IIRC, and takes away any trace of the upgraded ecu.

[Krendor]

APR: thank you for posting.
So you are saying:
Apr has two complete programs, or more.
and
Unamed Company has one program with two, or more, sets of tweaks to that one program.

Correct?

Jay

[XXXX]

How the fuck would APR know what the unnamed company has when its not even released.
As usual Keith is talking out of his ass

[the sheriff]

it's a small industry, there are not many secrets

[BrettAPR]

Originally posted by Anthony
It'd be my pleasure. Email me your address and shirt size. [:)]

Can I get a shirt too? (seriously) It's only fair, right? [:p] XXL if possible. Thanks.

Brett
APR

[DoThisMyWay]

Dang, just merge this thread with the chip thread in the B6 forum. It's like reading the same shiet twice.

[Anthony]

Originally posted by BrettAPR
Can I get a shirt too? (seriously) It's only fair, right? [:p] XXL if possible. Thanks.

Brett
APR Sure, I think you guys could use a few AZ shirts. So let me know if Keith, Tom, and Ben want anything and if so what size they wear. [;)]

[AudiMan]

as the world turns

[Phoenix-IT]

Originally posted by Audi Skate Snow
the car made 180 to the wheels and 190 tq to the wheels bone stock.

I will tell you with the chip it is making a SHIT load more. IF they dont post by today i will

Liar... [:p]

[ECA4]

Ok, it's been a few days. Should I just go ahead and post the numbers I heard?

[bhvrdr]

Do you have the WHP numbers? I'd still like to know what they are. Very interested. Heck, if you're wrong about them it will just force him to post what the right ones are :) I kid, I kid. cheers! Mike

[Jwilliams]

man someone post some numbers or something, this is lame.

[Phoenix-IT]

Originally posted by Jwilliams
man someone post some numbers or something, this is lame.

Makes me wonder; if they were really that good, would Revo keep holding out like this?

[flath12]

yea seriously.. i forget who, but someone said that they were gonna post the numbers like 2 days ago.

i really want to hear them

[Keith@APR]

Originally posted by Anthony
Sure, I think you guys could use a few AZ shirts. So let me know if Keith, Tom, and Ben want anything and if so what size they wear. [;)]

We're all big corn fed Alabama boys so xxl all the way round!

[jsamans]

So far big corn-fed Alabama boys are edging out rumors of big corn-fed Revo numbers. ;-)

[Audi Skate Snow]

Ok im callin right now to see if i can post numbers. give me a couple mins.

[Audi Skate Snow]

ok just got off the phone,,,they are going post them next week sometime.

go to their website and keep checkin in for numbers. Sorry guys I can't post them!

All i can say is the car feels fater than a k04

[flath12]

err.. y won't they let u post the numbers? if they already have them then y wait

[Audi Skate Snow]

It is just something that the company would like to do. It would suck to put alot of time and money into a product and then have someone else post them. Also they might have some more information then I would, since i was not there durring the dyno.

[bhvrdr]

Originally posted by Audi Skate Snow
It is just something that the company would like to do. It would suck to put alot of time and money into a product and then have someone else post them. Also they might have some more information then I would, since i was not there durring the dyno.

I'm considering this option and plan on testing it as well, so I have a couple questions for you. Do they have their own test car or did they use yours? How many months and what type of testing did they do on it to develop the software? Maybe they can answer this as well. Thanks for the info. cheers! Mike

[the sheriff]

I would hope that they would realize there are potential customers currently waiting for the information. Customers like myself who very well might just go with APR as I've done in the past due to the length of time this is taking. Every day is lost marketshare.

[Sherpa]

Originally posted by the sheriff
I would hope that they would realize there are potential customers currently waiting for the information. Customers like myself who very well might just go with APR as I've done in the past due to the length of time this is taking. Every day is lost marketshare.

Very good point. However, I still don't see why they should release the numbers before people can actually purchase the product. This thread is quite annoying! [:p]

[bhvrdr]

Originally posted by Sherpa
Very good point. However, I still don't see why they should release the numbers before people can actually purchase the product. This thread is quite annoying! [:p]

Agree, i'm sure they are well aware that everyday w/o programming for an application is money lost, but would we rather they rush a program that is not ready yet? I'd rather a company takes as long as it needs so no surprises happen down the road. This is not to say that any other programs were rushed buy maybe others just got started sooner. cheers! Mike

[ECA4]

Revo will own. Talked to a guy at the shop near me, programming should be available early next week. Dealers are just waiting for the ecu cables to come in.

[the sheriff]

Originally posted by bhvrdr
Agree, i'm sure they are well aware that everyday w/o programming for an application is money lost, but would we rather they rush a program that is not ready yet? I'd rather a company takes as long as it needs so no surprises happen down the road. This is not to say that any other programs were rushed buy maybe others just got started sooner. cheers! Mike

I agree, and in no way would I want a product like this to be rushed to market. We're also talking about a rather uninque industry where many have direct contact with the actual customer base. I would think that with the given hype surrounding the product the marketing team at Revo would want to take advantage of this and at least fill us in with some information.

As far as releasing numbers prior to release, yeah, that would be beneficial - it's always important to hype your product right before it's launch. What do you think a movie trailer is for....

[Audi Skate Snow]

Originally posted by bhvrdr
I'm considering this option and plan on testing it as well, so I have a couple questions for you. Do they have their own test car or did they use yours? How many months and what type of testing did they do on it to develop the software? Maybe they can answer this as well. Thanks for the info. cheers! Mike

They used my car, its been about 2-3 months of testing to make sure it is perfect. We did baseline dyno and also a lot of tuning on the dyno with their software. To make sure the file was perfect.

For those of you who don't want to wait i would rethink it. All you have heard so far are good things and if you want to go with APR becuase of time issue then fine. I would personaly wait it out and then compare your options. APR is great but I can promise you the results are worth waiting for REVO.

I hate doing this to you guys becuase you are so anxious. I just want to post them already but i can't. trust me guys It is going to be worth it.

[Phoenix-IT]

It will post the numbers on the skin or it will get the hose again...

[Jwilliams]

lol... no its "it puts the numbers on the forum"

[KEVIN97A4]

so let me get this right...the revo flash will be something you plug into the OBD port? And leave it plugged in? When you take it to the dealer you unplug it and everyting is back to stock...? Is this correct? Also anyone have any clue how much this will cost?

[DoThisMyWay]

I think the ECU would be flashed with a program and reverted back to "stock mode" via handheld SPS or whatever REVO uses for program switching. I don't know how much it will cost.

[Audi Skate Snow]

Originally posted by DoThisMyWay
I think the ECU would be flashed with a program and reverted back to "stock mode" via handheld SPS or whatever REVO uses for program switching. I don't know how much it will cost.

Correct.

[parks853]

Originally posted by Audi Skate Snow
Correct.

So an authorized dealer will have to flash the ECU first? Then, the sps can be used to switch programs?

[KEVIN97A4]

what is SPS? Also anyone know what the REVO flash will cost?

[DoThisMyWay]

Serial Port Switch (http://www.revotechnik.com/products/sps.aspx)

I think the B6 1.8T file is $499. I'm not sure what the B7 files are going to cost though.

[qtek16]

screw revo lol

[AudiGuy666]

yea you guys are way to horny over the REVO software no one has seen any #'s or price

[mksap11]

Don't know if this has been posted yet (or is well known to past REVO customers). Some interesting stuff here:

http://forums.fourtitude.com/zerothread?id=2309526

[ECA4]

Just saw that, their only about 15 min away from where I work. I'll be going there either Friday or Tuesday to get flashed[:D]

[Emil@RENN-ART]

someone's skurred!! ;)

seriously.. revo's program will blow your mind!

the turboback program especially!

[AudiGuy666]

hold on , so you have to buy the SPS seperatly ? Ouch .

[mksap11]

Originally posted by AudiGuy666
hold on , so you have to buy the SPS seperatly ? Ouch .

Apparently, but what's the big deal? Still about the same price as APR w/ similar programs/features.

[XXXX]

Just got off the phone with David.
Eurocode Tunning will be giving out free BOV to first 5 B7 customers.

[XXXX]

Originally posted by AudiGuy666
hold on , so you have to buy the SPS seperatly ? Ouch .
How much is APR's 91, 93, 100 octane and anti theft software when combined?

[the sheriff]

actually - you can get a fully loaded APR chip during the x-mas sale for a great deal!

[XXXX]

Originally posted by the sheriff
actually - you can get a fully loaded APR chip during the x-mas sale for a great deal!
Thats just a promo price, I'm interested in comparing apples with apples.
How much will a regular price 91, 93 100 and anti theft be when combined?

[mksap11]

Originally posted by the sheriff
actually - you can get a fully loaded APR chip during the x-mas sale for a great deal!

What sale are you talking about? Nothing on their website...

[Cassmoney]

Actually, APR's is $50 more than REVO for the same features (i.e. Stg. 1 with stock- 91octane)

"Just got off the phone with David.
Eurocode Tunning will be giving out free BOV to first 5 B7 customers."
I might have to make an appointment with Eurocode.

[Audi Skate Snow]

Originally posted by Cassmoney
Actually, APR's is $50 more than REVO for the same features (i.e. Stg. 1 with stock- 91octane)

"Just got off the phone with David.
Eurocode Tunning will be giving out free BOV to first 5 B7 customers."
I might have to make an appointment with Eurocode.

DO IT!

REVO software for b7 = better than APR! IMO

[Cassmoney]

Yea, I'll give them a call this week, hopefully next week I will pull the trigger and get it.

Edit: Just e-mailed them.

[ECA4]

Hey I want a BOV too[:(]

Can't wait to go Revo! Looks like early next week.

[Audi Skate Snow]

Originally posted by Cassmoney
Yea, I'll give them a call this week, hopefully next week I will pull the trigger and get it.

Edit: Just e-mailed them.

Nice....you wont be disapointed.!!!!!!!!!!!

[parks853]

Originally posted by Audi Skate Snow
DO IT!

REVO software for b7 = better than APR! IMO


Have you drove a B7 with APR loaded? Is that how you made your comparison? I just wondered since you have had a lot of exposure to the REVO.

[RE5PECT]

i know it doesnt matter, but will REVO have he software for the tip motors yet? or does it not make a difference

[bhvrdr]

Shouldnt have to detune for the TIP. The CVT will be the one to watch out for. cheers! Mike

[bhvrdr]

Originally posted by Audi Skate Snow
DO IT!

REVO software for b7 = better than APR! IMO

I have the same questions. What did you find were the differences? What was the difference in WHP numbers? Any differences in the boost onset and peaks, the timing retard, the EGT, the KV, etc? What are the differences you have found? cheers! Mike

[BrettAPR]

Originally posted by Audi Skate Snow
DO IT!

REVO software for b7 = better than APR! IMO

I think it is safe to say that this would definitely qualify as an uneducated, biased opinion. Fact is, every product that the company you mentioned has produced up to this point has been a result of technology developed at APR. Audi Skate Snow, the software that runs in your car is in many ways APR software. In fact a very large percentage of this work was completed by yours truly. The guys that "tune" the software at Revo used to work in the sales department at APR and have no technical background. These people would never ever qualify to work in the technical department at our company. The fact that they had access too and had the lack of morals (their own words) to steal and use our technology means that they were able to produce a competitive product. As many of you may know this was the subject of a lawsuit that we brought up against this "company". In the end, the resulting deposition and discoveries put the writing on the wall and they eagerly requested a settlement (the details of which are, of course, confidential.)

As should be more than obvious to anyone who has invested the slightest amount of thought into the subject, it is not by matter of chance that we (APR) released our ME9 products and breakthrough products quite some time ago. Motronic 9 is a substantially different platform than ME7 and required a large amount of development effort. Tackling this sort of challenge is something that we are more capable of doing than any one of our competitors in the world. This is because we invest heavily in product development. The technology and personnel behind our products is real. We don't hide behind a corporate veil and let our distributors do all of the talking and working. Our products are not "derivative" products resulting from the work of others. When someone purchases a product from us they are not simply lining someone's pockets, this money is reinvested into development that serves to bring the industry forward.

Food for thought...

In closing, an excerpt from another post of mine:

You can trust us that the APR product will continue to lead the way in the 2.0T market. We have invested significantly more resources than any other company in the market in our products design. We have more programmers and engineers on staff than any of our competitors, in fact more than probably most of our competitors combined. It is not by accident that we are first to market with serial programming for 2.0T and multiple program switching. I would suggest that everyone shop carefully and see what is (or isn't) really behind a brand name. Suggested questions:

Who is doing the engine calibration and what are their credentials?
What tools are they using to do the calibration and who designed the tools?
Who are their programmers, how many do they have, and what are their credentials?
Are the companies paying royalty fees for technologies they are using?
Does the company have a real physical address with a complete onsite development staff or do they wander from location to location?
Has the company invested in the proper equipment to get the job done (or do they wander from place to place using others equipment)?


As an insider to the industry, I am completely aware of the answers to these questions as it applies to us and our competitors. I can say that if one were to ask and were to receive honest correct answers to these questions (probably not likely) from some of our competitors that they would be shocked and appalled to hear the answers. But don't take my word for it. Ask these questions yourself.


Brett
APR

[AudiGuy666]

ya skate snow , how are you saying REVO is better then APR for the B7 ?

Your opinion sounds VERY biased. Basing the fact that you run REVO on your B6 , and your GF's B7.
You drivin an APR 93 octane B7 ?

[Audi Skate Snow]

Hey guys i said in my opinion. i love APR as well, it is great software...i never said one is for sure better than the other...just said in my opinion. Either one is good shit!

Also it is hard for me to battle this since i can not release any info about it untill they do. My car does have REVO software and it is great. There for I like Revo for b7's!

Sorry for that! Last thing I want to do is start a REVO vs APR

APR is always a good way to go

[Audi Skate Snow]

ME9 ECU tuning technology was develope By REVO from scratch. ABSOLUTLEY NONE of that software came from APR.

[XXXX]

Originally posted by BrettAPR
The guys that "tune" the software at Revo used to work in the sales department at APR and have no technical background. These people would never ever qualify to work in the technical department at our company.


Brett
APR
I dont know how but seems to me that these sales monkeys from REVO somehow managed to knock out ME9 software with no problem.
Sales people are getting smarter and smarter I guess..[:p]
Where is this world going???
Next thing you know my local Safeway bagger will be designing Unix apps.

[Cassmoney]

Man, all of these chip wars are nuts! Hard to keep up with....
But I do have one question; Why is the APR software $50 more?

I have no reason to like either software, I have been shopping for software for quite sometime and still have not come to a solid conclusion. Just wondering why the prices are all over the place when the gains are somewhat similar?

Later.

[Audi Skate Snow]

Are you sure you know what the gains are from REVO?

[XXXX]

Originally posted by Cassmoney
Man, all of these chip wars are nuts! Hard to keep up with....
But I do have one question; Why is the APR software $50 more?

I have no reason to like either software, I have been shopping for software for quite sometime and still have not come to a solid conclusion. Just wondering why the prices are all over the place when the gains are somewhat similar?

Later.
Might wanna ask APR guys, they seem to have insight on all REVO doings, maybe they can tell you why they charge $50 more then REVO.

[Cassmoney]

No I wasn't saying that I know, I am just basing it off of previous software for the B6, and 10hp or whatever it is isn't that big of a difference for someone like myself. Although I hardly into modding as some on this forum. Sh*t, I am having a hard enough time justifying the ECU upgrade!
Thanks for keeping us updated on the REVO software though, AUDI skate snow.

By the way, Eurocode got back to me and the flash price is the same (for all that want to know) as the B6 flash, and the SPS switching units wont be in till mid December. Which might make me wait till then.

[Cassmoney]

XXXX, yea, I would like to know....

[XXXX]

Originally posted by Cassmoney
Thanks for keeping us updated on the REVO software though, AUDI skate snow.
Just call him A S S like I do..[:D]

[Cassmoney]

LOL, by the way Audi Skate, I would love to see the B7 sometime in action. HB local! :)

[Audi Skate Snow]

Originally posted by XXXX
Just call him A S S like I do..[:D]


ahahahhah FO SHO!!!

Cassmoney. feel free to come check it out when ever. PM me .

[parks853]

Originally posted by Audi Skate Snow
Hey guys i said in my opinion. i love APR as well, it is great software...i never said one is for sure better than the other...just said in my opinion. Either one is good shit!

Also it is hard for me to battle this since i can not release any info about it untill they do. My car does have REVO software and it is great. There for I like Revo for b7's!

Sorry for that! Last thing I want to do is start a REVO vs APR

APR is always a good way to go

I am unbiased. I am just trying to make a decison on which software I want to purchase. In you opinion, I wanted to know what you think is better about REVO. Bhvrdr ask some interesting questions - any insight on that stuff to help out some confused folks like myself?

It would be nice if someone demoed all the software and dynoed it all with plots and such. List all the interesting specs. Which seems like it would be hard to do since you have to let the ECU adjust after the new software download.

thanks for you help.

[Audi Skate Snow]

Ya i hear you. That is why i said its hard to battle this without being able to post numbers.

Wait till next week im sure they will post by then. If your in cali come drive my car and you will see for yourself.

[David@EuroCode]

Originally posted by BrettAPR
I think it is safe to say that this would definitely qualify as an uneducated, biased opinion. Fact is, every product that the company you mentioned has produced up to this point has been a result of technology developed at APR. Audi Skate Snow, the software that runs in your car is in many ways APR software. In fact a very large percentage of this work was completed by yours truly. The guys that "tune" the software at Revo used to work in the sales department at APR and have no technical background. These people would never ever qualify to work in the technical department at our company. The fact that they had access too and had the lack of morals (their own words) to steal and use our technology means that they were able to produce a competitive product. As many of you may know this was the subject of a lawsuit that we brought up against this "company". In the end, the resulting deposition and discoveries put the writing on the wall and they eagerly requested a settlement (the details of which are, of course, confidential.)

As should be more than obvious to anyone who has invested the slightest amount of thought into the subject, it is not by matter of chance that we (APR) released our ME9 products and breakthrough products quite some time ago. Motronic 9 is a substantially different platform than ME7 and required a large amount of development effort. Tackling this sort of challenge is something that we are more capable of doing than any one of our competitors in the world. This is because we invest heavily in product development. The technology and personnel behind our products is real. We don't hide behind a corporate veil and let our distributors do all of the talking and working. Our products are not "derivative" products resulting from the work of others. When someone purchases a product from us they are not simply lining someone's pockets, this money is reinvested into development that serves to bring the industry forward.

Food for thought...

In closing, an excerpt from another post of mine:

You can trust us that the APR product will continue to lead the way in the 2.0T market. We have invested significantly more resources than any other company in the market in our products design. We have more programmers and engineers on staff than any of our competitors, in fact more than probably most of our competitors combined. It is not by accident that we are first to market with serial programming for 2.0T and multiple program switching. I would suggest that everyone shop carefully and see what is (or isn't) really behind a brand name. Suggested questions:

Who is doing the engine calibration and what are their credentials?
What tools are they using to do the calibration and who designed the tools?
Who are their programmers, how many do they have, and what are their credentials?
Are the companies paying royalty fees for technologies they are using?
Does the company have a real physical address with a complete onsite development staff or do they wander from location to location?
Has the company invested in the proper equipment to get the job done (or do they wander from place to place using others equipment)?


As an insider to the industry, I am completely aware of the answers to these questions as it applies to us and our competitors. I can say that if one were to ask and were to receive honest correct answers to these questions (probably not likely) from some of our competitors that they would be shocked and appalled to hear the answers. But don't take my word for it. Ask these questions yourself.


Brett
APR

Was the original APR ME9 flash tuning released to the market without switching technology available? If so, why?

Does the APR ME9 flash tuning block the dealer from uploading potential revisions that Audi engineers feel are necessary for the proper operation of the car?

Does the APR ME9 flash tuning alter or increase the flash counter?

Does the APR flash cause the last workshop code to be changed in any way?

Does the APR software allow the end user to make adjustments to ignition timing, boost and A/F without the use of a laptop or PDA?

Does the APR software provide a stage 2 tune for off road use, which would make it possible to use a testpipe(cat delete) without a CEL(check engine light)?

Happy turkey day.


David S.

[Audi Skate Snow]

Well hot damn!

[parks853]

Originally posted by Audi Skate Snow
Ya i hear you. That is why i said its hard to battle this without being able to post numbers.

Wait till next week im sure they will post by then. If your in cali come drive my car and you will see for yourself.

Tucson AZ, How far is that? Prob to far. [:(]

[Audi Skate Snow]

not to bad. let me know if you are ever out here.

[the sheriff]

Originally posted by David@EuroCode
Was the original APR ME9 flash tuning released to the market without switching technology available? If so, why?

Does the APR ME9 flash tuning block the dealer from uploading potential revisions that Audi engineers feel are necessary for the proper operation of the car?

Does the APR ME9 flash tuning alter or increase the flash counter?

Does the APR flash cause the last workshop code to be changed in any way?

Does the APR software allow the end user to make adjustments to ignition timing, boost and A/F without the use of a laptop or PDA?

Does the APR software provide a stage 2 tune for off road use, which would make it possible to use a testpipe(cat delete) without a CEL(check engine light)?

Happy turkey day.


David S.

I haven't a freakin clue as to any of these answers - I just know the last time I saw I Eurocode car, I believe it was on fire......[eek]

[XXXX]

Originally posted by the sheriff
I haven't a freakin clue as to any of these answers - I just know the last time I saw I Eurocode car, I believe it was on fire......[eek]
That must be tuning related, right?

[the sheriff]

Originally posted by XXXX
That must be tuning related, right?

I believe it was due to that actually.......so much for being able to tweak on the fly

[XXXX]

Originally posted by the sheriff
I believe it was due to that actually.......so much for being able to tweak on the fly
Would you mind explaining how would tuning cause a car to catch on fire?

[Cassmoney]

Not again.....

[David@EuroCode]

Originally posted by the sheriff
I haven't a freakin clue as to any of these answers - I just know the last time I saw I Eurocode car, I believe it was on fire......[eek]

Some how this guy got a lot more publicity than us. Go figure.[:D]

http://www.nascar.com/2004/news/headlines/cup/07/18/dearnhardtjr_burned/
http://i.cnn.net/nascar/2004/news/headlines/cup/07/18/dearnhardtjr_burned/junior_crash.jpg

[BrettAPR]

Originally posted by David@EuroCode
Was the original APR ME9 flash tuning released to the market without switching technology available? If so, why?

Originally released without switching. This was my call and I did so for two reasons:

a) due to the sheer sophistication of the new ME9 programming system I insisted that the release be broken up into two phases. The first phase released the performance software whereas the second phase introduced the EMCS options. This would allow us to debug any potential problems with the system with much greater ease as the number of potential factors was decreased considerably. This ended up being an excellent choice and both phases of the release went without incident.

b) We wanted to extend the beta testing of the EMCS functionality and this was a logical combination with (a).


Does the APR ME9 flash tuning block the dealer from uploading potential revisions that Audi engineers feel are necessary for the proper operation of the car?

No, uploads are fully supported.


Does the APR ME9 flash tuning alter or increase the flash counter?

The flash counter is retained to the value most commonly used on the production vehicles from the factory. IOW, no, we don't increment the flash counter.


Does the APR flash cause the last workshop code to be changed in any way?

Last workshop code is read and reused with the new burn. So no, the last workshop code is not changed.


Does the APR software allow the end user to make adjustments to ignition timing, boost and A/F without the use of a laptop or PDA?

Yes, the proper way. With multiple programs using complete calibration data block switching, not interpolation between maps.


Does the APR software provide a stage 2 tune for off road use, which would make it possible to use a testpipe(cat delete) without a CEL(check engine light)?

Stage 2 software yes. If someone wants a testpipe software that is also available by special request.


Happy turkey day.


David S.

Thanks, you too.

Brett
APR

[igo380]

Just got my B7 APR Stage 1 flashed.....Excellent work and Kudos to APR and their vendors....

I have a stage 4 WRX as well...APR has figured out power, drivabilty, very, very cool.

[apoch]

Question: will my SPS3 from my B6 work on my B7? I'm waiting for REVO because I have the SPS3 already.

Question 2: Does REVO really give 280hp,310 torque at the motor as reported on Audiforums?

Question 3: Can I put the 3.6 V8 Twin Turbo in my A4?

[Cassmoney]

Apoch, I can only answer the first question; and it is a no. You can't use the old SPS switching units from the B6 for the B7.

[bhvrdr]

Brett and David,
Thanks to the both of you for asking and answering these questions. Very good questions and answers. It's great having you both on the forums. cheers! mike

[apoch]

My last two questions were for fun:) Thanks for your reply though. Guess I can sell my SPS3 then eh:)

[Emil@RENN-ART]

anyone have pictures of the bov's for the b7 2.0T's?

who makes them?

i'm confused what these things will be like.

the diverter valve setup on these cars is completely different. it's directly hooked into the turbo.

[bhvrdr]

The BOV is purely cosmetic. Car still runs off the BPV, but the BOV simply vents the air that was diverted. cheers! mike

[dan671]

are we gunna get some revo numbers or what i have been waiting for like a week and im dying to know whats the delay?

[gIzzE]

What Revo figures are you waiting for? The 2.0T?

Here are the graphs from a VW 2.0T.

http://www.arat26.dsl.pipex.com/audi/20tfsi_power.jpg

http://www.arat26.dsl.pipex.com/audi/20tfsi_torque.jpg


The runs were done at seperate times with 98ron and 100+ron fuel and then using the SPS3 to set the appropriate timing for the fuel grade and upping the boost settings.


EDIT: Forgot the link to the thread.....
http://www.audi-sport.net/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=350572&an=0&page=0#350572

[apoch]

an SPS3? So....can we use the old SPS3 unit or not?

[bhvrdr]

Unfortunately the VW will have completely different numbers. We are waiting on the quattro A4 whp numbers :(


BTW, No to the old SPS 3 units. We now use a CAN protocol for communication and new SPS units are being developed.

cheers! Mike

[Emil@RENN-ART]

Originally posted by bhvrdr
The BOV is purely cosmetic. Car still runs off the BPV, but the BOV simply vents the air that was diverted. cheers! mike

ic.. something like the forge atmospheric ad-on piece?

from what i understand it's for the sound (it's their description of it). is there any other benefit shown yet?

http://www.forgemotorsport.com/images/products/FMDVFSiT.jpg

[bhvrdr]

It wasnt designed to benefit the car. Forge was careful about advertising that. They advertise that this is not a performance enhancement in any way but an aesthetic add on for folks who enjoy a bit of noise. It will cause a slight richening of a/f but Forge stated it is not significant. cheers! Mike

[Emil@RENN-ART]

gotcha!

[XXXX]

Originally posted by the sheriff
I haven't a freakin clue as to any of these answers - I just know the last time I saw I Eurocode car, I believe it was on fire......[eek]


Originally posted by XXXX
That must be tuning related, right?


Originally posted by the sheriff
I believe it was due to that actually.......so much for being able to tweak on the fly

Based on your theory this car must have burned down due to the recently installed APR stage III kit, right?

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2318552


Hi, on of my friend had his TT catch on fire on the highway last weekend and a couple friends and I are thinking about buying it. My friend wants the motor for his MKIII GTI. My question is would the fire damage the motor (bottom end or head) so that it cant be used without being rebuilt? Motors operate at fairly high temperatures normally so obviously they can handle a fair amount of heat but would this be too much??
Also the car had an APR stage III kit installed less that 500 miles ago. So would the cold side of the turbo be able to handle the temperature without ruining all the seals?? The hot side regularly operates at red hot temps so I would think that the cold side would be able to withstand a lot of heat but I am not sure.


Thanks for the input.


Here is the damage.


http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y12/Powermac1700/IMG_4920.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y12/Powermac1700/IMG_4916.jpg

[Audi Skate Snow]

sheriff im sorry but if you think that dave's car caught on fire due to tuning then you my friend are a moron!

[XXXX]

Originally posted by Audi Skate Snow
sheriff im sorry but if you think that dave's car caught on fire due to tuning then you my friend are a moron!
yea, ECU was smoking a cigar and fell a sleep while watching a movie..[headbang]

[Audi Skate Snow]

HAHAHAHHAHAHA! must have been it! That damn ECU!

[XXXX]

REVO ECU caught in action..

http://havanajournal.com/images/uploads/big_cuban_cigar.jpg

[F16HTON]

Originally posted by the sheriff
I haven't a freakin clue as to any of these answers - I just know the last time I saw I Eurocode car, I believe it was thier taillights

[F16HTON]

Question for Keith or Brett?

When was the last time Mitch, Nick or Frank Doodle have come online and bashed an APR product?

Maybe you guys should let the numbers speak for themselves.

[parks853]

speaking of numbers - lets see em!

[F16HTON]

Originally posted by parks853
speaking of numbers - lets see em!

This is REVO's position on the numbers...In order to flash the ME9 ECU, it requires a new dongle. As of right now, not every dealer has received the new dongle set. REVO is fully aware that once the software is ultimately released to all of the dealers, there will be a rush to get cars programmed, some dealers who are not ready, may potentially miss out on business.

I am sure that APR has a very fine product, as well as GIAC will too.

The suspense is tough but the numbers may or may not be worth the wait. [;)]

[ECA4]

The release really should be any day now.

[flath12]

i've been hearin that for like the last 3 weeks..[rolleyes]

[Audi Skate Snow]

So wait longer....it is worth it.

[Phoenix-IT]

I'm seeing lots of hyperbole, and facts have yet to materialize...

[BrettAPR]

Originally posted by 400HPA4
Question for Keith or Brett?

When was the last time Mitch, Nick or Frank Doodle have come online and bashed an APR product?

Nick tried several years ago but it didn't go anywhere. When you are as guilty as that bunch, the best thing you can do is shut up and ride the gravy train as long as people continue to throw money your way.

BTW, I will speak openly about those bunch of crooks (specifically, the first two) until the cows come home. It is a matter of principal. If you understood the truth about them then you would too.

Brett
APR

[dan671]

i dont understand this.. if you tell us the numbers and there thats sweet it will only make people want it more its not hurting the company if anything benifiting it for someone who might go arp cause they know number and dont think much will change but if we saw them a lot of us would hold out for revo its like a movie trailer they gotta hipe the movie well revos gotta hipe their software

[DoThisMyWay]

Just keep on waiting...

[XXXX]

Originally posted by BrettAPR
Nick tried several years ago but it didn't go anywhere. When you are as guilty as that bunch, the best thing you can do is shut up and ride the gravy train as long as people continue to throw money your way.

BTW, I will speak openly about those bunch of crooks (specifically, the first two) until the cows come home. It is a matter of principal. If you understood the truth about them then you would too.

Brett
APR
Talking trash about competition is just making you look bad.
I actually feel sorry for you.

[obviouse]

SETuning here in Colorado gave me a call to schedule my appointment to get revo flashed. Said that the SPS modules and cables shipped for their shop today.

[BrettAPR]

Originally posted by XXXX
I actually feel sorry for you.

Thanks, I feel sorry for everyone who has been misled. If you carefully have read what I have posted you will realize that I have raised important questions about the market and more often than not have left it up to the end user to come to their own conclusion. Here is a repost for the third time of questions that I pose that people ask of their "tuner". I do not see how this is defamatory:

Who is doing the engine calibration and what are their credentials?
What tools are they using to do the calibration and who designed the tools?
Who are their programmers, how many do they have, and what are their credentials?
Are the companies paying royalty fees for technologies they are using?
Does the company have a real physical address with a complete onsite development staff or do they wander from location to location?
Has the company invested in the proper equipment to get the job done (or do they wander from place to place using others equipment)?


As an insider to the industry, I am completely aware of the answers to these questions as it applies to us and our competitors. I can say that if one were to ask and were to receive honest correct answers to these questions (probably not likely) from some of our competitors that they would be shocked and appalled to hear the answers. But don't take my word for it. Ask these questions yourself.

Brett
APR

[Audi Skate Snow]

I dont think to many people care about the company themselves...they just want to know if the shit works and if it makes power, and when and where they can get it . Bottomline!

[F16HTON]

Jealousy is truly an evil beast.

REVO has done nothing but flourish since its inception. A very good majority of its customers are extremely satisfied with the both the product and service they have received.

The funny thing is that Stephen has let this go, refocused his business plan post lawsut, and his company has really began to make some strides.

It is truly a shame you are bringing him back to square one. In you seven posts on this forum, you have managed to say not one nice thing, nor have you provided a single bit of useful knowledge to members of this forum.

During the last two years, there have been several APR customers that have been trying to communicate with represenatives of the company many things such as thier desire for a K04 program, issues with injectors, availabilty of the Motorsports line of products and the potential for race gas files.

Most of these questions still go unanswered...seeing as you have such a passion for your product, maybe it would be a good thing to focus on these issues, many other issues at hand, and then try to rebuild the tainted APR name.

[Ben@APR]

Originally posted by 400HPA4
In you seven posts on this forum, you have managed to say not one nice thing, nor have you provided a single bit of useful knowledge to members of this forum.

I believe the irony of your post is that you will never understand that you of all persons should have not written this.
While Brett has tried to have people ask legitimate questions about the tuners they buy their products from in these 7 posts, you have been on the forefront of bashing our company in numerous posts (you want to talk about liable/slander here?)
You and the select group of people that feel the need to create some sort of hype about something that others see as a product for their car are in my opinion the ones that we need to feel sorry for.

[XXXX]

Originally posted by BrettAPR
Thanks, I feel sorry for everyone who has been misled. If you carefully have read what I have posted you will realize that I have raised important questions about the market and more often than not have left it up to the end user to come to their own conclusion. Here is a repost for the third time of questions that I pose that people ask of their "tuner". I do not see how this is defamatory:

Who is doing the engine calibration and what are their credentials?
What tools are they using to do the calibration and who designed the tools?
Who are their programmers, how many do they have, and what are their credentials?
Are the companies paying royalty fees for technologies they are using?
Does the company have a real physical address with a complete onsite development staff or do they wander from location to location?
Has the company invested in the proper equipment to get the job done (or do they wander from place to place using others equipment)?


As an insider to the industry, I am completely aware of the answers to these questions as it applies to us and our competitors. I can say that if one were to ask and were to receive honest correct answers to these questions (probably not likely) from some of our competitors that they would be shocked and appalled to hear the answers. But don't take my word for it. Ask these questions yourself.

Brett
APR
Its funny that you mentioned all these things, because there is a guy currently tunning VW's and he doesnt have a shop nor anyone to help him with his software, but seems like his kicking some major ass. Althou he works from home he still manages to knock out some awesome software for almost any set up people throw his way.
I see this guy owning VW scene in probably less then 2 years from now.
Does not owning a huge facility and few programmers make him less capable then you?
Try changing your tone from trashing to contributing, like Greg said..[up] [up]

[Cassmoney]

Audi Skate Snow, I couldn't agree more! The only thing that I find funny is that once someone makes the choice to go to a certain software, it becomes the "best." Not saying everyone does this mind you, but after trolling these boards and AW I find that this conclusion is farely precise.
The thing that keeps boggling my mind is the fact that manufacturers come on here and argue that their product is better than "X" product. Come now, we know APR is great, GIAC, REVO, blah, blah, blah. Every one of the companies that comes on here is advertising in one way or the other that their product is better. But do it in a matter that people actually comprehend. Tell us WHY APR is a great program, not why "X" product is worse or a copy, etc.
Personally, I could care less about any of these companies. It all comes down to customer service, satisfaction, and of course the overall numbers/gains it brings forth to the car. If REVO does in fact beat all their competitors in HP gains/ TQ gains, then by golly they have done a good job! I, myself, will wait untill I see the numbers and then make my decision. I have already contacted Eurocode for info on REVO and when it will be available (SPS), as well as APR (although it took a very long time to get back to me....).

[XXXX]

Originally posted by BrettAPR
Who is doing the engine calibration and what are their credentials?
What tools are they using to do the calibration and who designed the tools?
Who are their programmers, how many do they have, and what are their credentials?
Are the companies paying royalty fees for technologies they are using?
Does the company have a real physical address with a complete onsite development staff or do they wander from location to location?
Has the company invested in the proper equipment to get the job done (or do they wander from place to place using others equipment)?


As an insider to the industry, I am completely aware of the answers to these questions as it applies to us and our competitors. I can say that if one were to ask and were to receive honest correct answers to these questions (probably not likely) from some of our competitors that they would be shocked and appalled to hear the answers. But don't take my word for it. Ask these questions yourself.

Brett
APR
Question Brett..
Was the current REVO programmer ever working for APR?
If yes what were his credentials then compared to now?
If he was so bad why did APR hire him to begin with?
Is it APR's practice to hire half assed programmers?

[Ben@APR]

Originally posted by XXXX
Question Brett..
Whas the current REVO programmer ever working for APR?
If yes what were his credentials then compared to now?
If he was so bad why did APR hire him to begin with?
Is it APR's practice to hire half assed programmers?

I think Brett has to draw this one for you on a piece of paper..clearly you have demonstrated in your last 2 post to know nothing about the workings of either your favorit tuner or the people in question and their functions at these companies.

[XXXX]

Originally posted by Ben@APR
I think Brett has to draw this one for you on a piece of paper..clearly you have demonstrated in your last 2 post to know nothing about the workings of either your favorit tuner or the people in question and their functions at these companies.
No need to be rude, I'm just asking simple questions.
Maybe you can answer them

edit: I'm just an end user I dont need to know REVO's 5 year plan or what their programmers eat for breakfast.
Simple trouble free software for almost 2 years is good enough for me..[up] [up]

[Emil@RENN-ART]

wow. very classy and respectable.

[Audi Skate Snow]

APR sorry but i think you are losing a little respect from everyone by trying to thread jack a revo post and come on here saying stuff about revo post.

[AudiMan]

people that only care about the peak numbers any chip is making don't know SHIT about cars and deserve to be misled.

[ChiMaster]

Originally posted by Audi Skate Snow
APR sorry but i think you are losing a little respect from everyone by trying to thread jack a revo post and come on here saying stuff about revo post.

APR didn't jack the thread, if you read back they were responding to disinformation regarding their process. Justified IMO.

Being in the software business myself, if one of my sales staff took source code to a competitor I'd be really really pissed off.

Regardless the back and forth is rediculous. A couple of threads are deliberatly goading a response under the guise of asking innocent questions.

Bottom line: APR, GIAC and REVO all put thousands of hours of effort into their software - and it is all good because they are all professionals.

On any given day you can install a chip from any of these companies and expect excellent results.

[Jliao]

I don't about you guys, but as a consumer, I find these questions important for me to know and not JUST THE NUMBERS.


Originally posted by BrettAPR
Who is doing the engine calibration and what are their credentials?
What tools are they using to do the calibration and who designed the tools?
Who are their programmers, how many do they have, and what are their credentials?
Are the companies paying royalty fees for technologies they are using?
Does the company have a real physical address with a complete onsite development staff or do they wander from location to location?
Has the company invested in the proper equipment to get the job done (or do they wander from place to place using others equipment)?

Similarly to windows tinting. I'd like to know the person that's tinting my windows have LONG time experiences, the tools they use, the process they use. Instead, not some 18 years old high school kid with less than a year experiences tinting my windows.

Nonetheless, I think this thread has too much drama going on. Let's all just wait for the # and see how it goes.

Anyway, just my $0.02

[parks853]

numbers are up on their site.

265bhp
290ft/lbs

how did they get bhp? And is APR's numbers bhp or whp?

[zerinA4]

Those numbers are sketchy at best. Their A3 and A4 dynos are the same. No WAY thats possible since everyone is getting more power out of the A3 than the A3. Also, that looks like a dyno from a eurospec car (A3 or A4? Who knows?) since fuel ratings are in RON.


Originally posted by parks853
numbers are up on their site.

265bhp
290ft/lbs

how did they get bhp? And is APR's numbers bhp or whp?

[parks853]

is 98RON 93 or 91?

[BoostedA4tQ]

Now that the numbers are out.. when can we see the dyno sheet with Audi Skate Snow did in the B7?

[Emil@RENN-ART]

98 ron is equal to 93 oct in the US

[DoThisMyWay]

Damn, 7 pages later we finally get to see some numbers. Like Boosted asked, how about that dyno plot, Audi Skate Snow? I want to see what Revo's numbers are on 91.

[Audi Skate Snow]

I will post it, give me a bit.

What did APR make on 91 octane?

[DoThisMyWay]

I just got the program last Wednesday. I'll have to take my car to a dyno, as soon as I can find one in my area. APR's site states 232hp/273lb-ft., with 91. I just want to see some other numbers with 91 octane. Either way, with whatever brand software, the chipped 2.0T is 100% better than stock.

[bhvrdr]

Since we know the crank horsepower numbers are way off for the stocker, these crank numbers are useless. Can we get the WHP numbers please? cheers! Mike

[KEVIN97A4]

Mike time to update your sig already :)

[Krendor]

APR, from a possible user as your dealer is only one close:
If the court case is settled then I see no reason to continue this negative discussion APR! If you have a problem go to court or be quiet and sell a better product.

If REVO has so little to no staff funny how they still produce software without checksum errors and sorry but MANY less reports of problems, at least in the B6 area.

If I were APR I'd work on my flashing so that so many dealers don't have problems, instead of bashing...

Let your product do the talking, I am sure if you have a better product bhvrdr's report will show it.

take a lesson from Jeff Moss...


Jay

[parks853]

Originally posted by bhvrdr
Since we know the crank horsepower numbers are way off for the stocker, these crank numbers are useless. Can we get the WHP numbers please? cheers! Mike

Thank you!

I 2nd this.

[ECA4]

Great numbers, i'm going to be scheduling an appointment asap and hopefully be able to throw it on the dyno once I get my exhaust around christmas time.

[bhvrdr]

Can anyone at Revo explain why these graphs that are the same graph are being used as advertising for two entirely different cars with two different drivetrains?



http://www.arat26.dsl.pipex.com/audi/20tfsi_power.jpg

http://www.revotechnik.com/includes/getImage.asp?filename=products\powerGraph426.gif

cheers! Mike

[Audi Skate Snow]

ill try and post mine.

[AudiMan]

yes you do that, TRY to post yours....neuspeed reported 257/302 tq in a post a while back...REVO is slapping its customers in the face by posting the same fucken graph for two different graphs

[F16HTON]

Originally posted by Ben@APR
I believe the irony of your post is that you will never understand that you of all persons should have not written this.
While Brett has tried to have people ask legitimate questions about the tuners they buy their products from in these 7 posts, you have been on the forefront of bashing our company in numerous posts (you want to talk about liable/slander here?)
You and the select group of people that feel the need to create some sort of hype about something that others see as a product for their car are in my opinion the ones that we need to feel sorry for.

Ben, the difference is that I am not affiliated with either REVO nor APR in any way whatsoever...whatever I say is my opinion and is not libel, nor is is slander.

What you need to do is focus on your customers...answer thier questions...find a way to reach out to the numerous members in the VW/Audi community and win back their trust.

I have owned an APR product (337 programming) it never worked correctly, your company (through your vendors) had many opportunites to rectify the issue...ultimately I was forced to replace the ECM. This is a fact, I have your old chip and a work order from the replacement of the ECM.

How about this...I send you the repair order and the chip, and you refund/reimbuse me 100% of all of my out of pocket expenses. You guys are so tough, back up your words with your wallet.

I am waiting for my refund.

[bhvrdr]

Ok, three different cars. How about those whp numbers audi skate. May help clarify...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v714/bhvrdr/products_powerGraph426.gif

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v714/bhvrdr/products_powerGraph424.gif

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v714/bhvrdr/products_powerGraph419.gif

Also intersting to note is that if you click on the EUROPE button and the AMERCAS button they show the exact same graph for the high quality European gas and spec cars as for the US spec and fuel cars even though the programming and fuel system is different. Iam confused.

Lets see the real deal.

cheers! Mike

[AudiMan]

^^hahaha good luck buddy

[Ben@APR]

Originally posted by 400HPA4
Ben, the difference is that I am not affiliated with either REVO nor APR in any way whatsoever...whatever I say is my opinion and is not libel, nor is is slander.

What you need to do is focus on your customers...answer thier questions...find a way to reach out to the numerous members in the VW/Audi community and win back their trust.

I have owned an APR product (337 programming) it never worked correctly, your company (through your vendors) had many opportunites to rectify the issue...ultimately I was forced to replace the ECM. This is a fact, I have your old chip and a work order from the replacement of the ECM.

How about this...I send you the repair order and the chip, and you refund/reimbuse me 100% of all of my out of pocket expenses. You guys are so tough, back up your words with your wallet.

I am waiting for my refund. You don't have to be affiliated with anyone to slander or say libelous things..surely you know that right?

In fact we do focus on our customers a lot, we are the only one in this industry that use state of the art tools like CRM to track all of our support calls. Dealing with 300 emails on a daily basis�yes it takes sometimes a bit because of back logs and sometimes some of them don't pass through some of the filters we have in place.
But we try to answer all of them in a timely manner.
We also answer a lot of questions on some of the forums...no we might not answer all of YOUR questions, but that might be also a problem that is related to you.

We in fact have 5 agents answering phone calls at our office 5 days a week 40 hours.
While we might not (in your eyes) care about our customers we spend a lot of time and money trying to please everyone.
Can we do an even better job at this?�.sure..and we will continue to improve on ourselves to satisfy all of our customers.

It becomes however an uphill battle when we have people like yourself trying to find every nit bit they can find,from childish things like pictures of some of the girls that work for us at shows to challenging time slips of our employees.

You bought our product from one of our dealers but are requesting a refund from us?
Although I am sorry to hear that you encountered a problem with your APR product, if you had called us we might have been able to resolve your issue.
Was it a hardware related issue a software related problem?, for us to find out now is almost impossible so we are not able to give you a refund..sorry(you can stop waiting).
I believe you knew that we were going to give you this answer; especially being in business yourself, know that your customers have to give you a chance to resolve the problems they have before demanding a refund and yes you tried to do that with our dealer yet you want a refund from us.


While I try to keep my responses to you and some of the other fan boys to somewhat of a professional level I surely don't think you deserve this.
Especially when we don't seem to get the same kind of treatment when it comes to some of your comments or posts�.

[raulg_usa]

Finally ... wich one is better ?Neuspeed with their reported 257/302 tq or REVO with 265/290 ??? I mean, in the real world, what is the difference? As I know, Neuspeed got those numbers weeks ago, why is REVO coming out with less ? Anything wrong with the neuspeed chip? Why is this huge wait for the Revo?

Anyway, I am confused .. can you guys make it clear what is the best way to chip a B7 right now ?

[Emil@RENN-ART]

lol!

i just remembered the good 'ol apr dynos from back in the day when they first started.. which looked like someone drew by hand!... guess what!?... they're still pushing 'em off as real dyno charts!

i should have my wife's 1st graders work on some graphs for them!

http://www.goapr.com/Audi/products/images/dyno_b7a4_s1_93_clean.jpg

[Emil@RENN-ART]

it's very clear why they're on here trying to sound like the gods of "tuning".. it has to be painful having their cozy and extremely profitable situation that they've had for years going down the drain.

i say let's stop the dyno queen talk and let's go to the track instead! that's where it really counts!

we should have an AUDI/VW Tuner Day (besides Waterfest) somewhere in the country (midwest would be great!) .. with different strict classes.. kinda like Buschur Racing has the DSM shootout, for example.

it'll be an "AUDI/VW Tuner's Clash" [drive]

for example,

one class could be "chipped only"

second "chipped + simple bolt-ons"

third "anything goes"

and/or maybe have a professional driver (not from the industry.. like a domestic drag expert) test each car (5-10 runs in each car).

'cus seriously.. all this is really childish... the other tuner industry people must be laughing their A$$3$ off at this thread!..

[rolleyes]

[BrettAPR]

Originally posted by RENN-ART
it's very clear why they're on here trying to sound like the gods of "tuning".. it has to be painful having their cozy and extremely profitable situation that they've had for years going down the drain.

Eh, actually not... Our company has continued to steadily increase our revenues up until this very day. If you checked your data you would see that the aforementioned company has actually consistently lost market share in the last year with the B6 market being one of the last holdouts. Combine this with a succesful outcome in our legal battle and it is pretty obvious that the situation is actually quite the opposite of what you suggest.

I would not say either that our situation is "extreme profitability" either. We are still very much in the growing stage and continue to reinvest nearly every single dime that comes through the door back into the company.

Regarding dyno charts, processed power figures are no less legitimate than a chassis dyno chart provided by a company. Either one can be manipulated to show whatever you wish. It comes down to the honesty of those reporting the figures and their competence in extracting the figures and running the tests.

I think a shootout or independent comparison sounds like a good idea. We would be willing to participate, provided it's performed in a fair manner.

Brett
APR

[Phoenix-IT]

Originally posted by bhvrdr
Ok, three different cars. How about those whp numbers audi skate. May help clarify...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v714/bhvrdr/products_powerGraph426.gif

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v714/bhvrdr/products_powerGraph424.gif

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v714/bhvrdr/products_powerGraph419.gif

Also intersting to note is that if you click on the EUROPE button and the AMERCAS button they show the exact same graph for the high quality European gas and spec cars as for the US spec and fuel cars even though the programming and fuel system is different. Iam confused.

Lets see the real deal.

cheers! Mike

Yea, I'm definitely not impressed that all those dyno graphs are the same. Makes me suspicious...

[raulg_usa]

>>>Yea, I'm definitely not impressed that all those dyno graphs are the same. Makes me suspicious...


EXACTLY !

[F16HTON]

Originally posted by Ben@APR
You don't have to be affiliated with anyone to slander or say libelous things..surely you know that right?

In fact we do focus on our customers a lot, we are the only one in this industry that use state of the art tools like CRM to track all of our support calls. Dealing with 300 emails on a daily basis�yes it takes sometimes a bit because of back logs and sometimes some of them don't pass through some of the filters we have in place.
But we try to answer all of them in a timely manner.
We also answer a lot of questions on some of the forums...no we might not answer all of YOUR questions, but that might be also a problem that is related to you.

We in fact have 5 agents answering phone calls at our office 5 days a week 40 hours.
While we might not (in your eyes) care about our customers we spend a lot of time and money trying to please everyone.
Can we do an even better job at this?�.sure..and we will continue to improve on ourselves to satisfy all of our customers.

It becomes however an uphill battle when we have people like yourself trying to find every nit bit they can find,from childish things like pictures of some of the girls that work for us at shows to challenging time slips of our employees.

You bought our product from one of our dealers but are requesting a refund from us?
Although I am sorry to hear that you encountered a problem with your APR product, if you had called us we might have been able to resolve your issue.
Was it a hardware related issue a software related problem?, for us to find out now is almost impossible so we are not able to give you a refund..sorry(you can stop waiting).
I believe you knew that we were going to give you this answer; especially being in business yourself, know that your customers have to give you a chance to resolve the problems they have before demanding a refund and yes you tried to do that with our dealer yet you want a refund from us.


While I try to keep my responses to you and some of the other fan boys to somewhat of a professional level I surely don't think you deserve this.
Especially when we don't seem to get the same kind of treatment when it comes to some of your comments or posts�.

Ben...all of a sudden things change, now that you know I am an APR customer that has been screwed over repeatedly, you are on the defense. This is why you should be careful what you say on an internet forum. Now that you have asked, I will provide the members of AZ with the APR issues.

1.) APR solder on chip for the Volkswagen 337 1.8t...purchased at New Dimensions in Janurary 2003. Car never ran right, checksum errors, returned to New Dimensions several times, finally chip was replaced with a new EPROM, APR was serial port programmed onto the chip (this cost me an additional $200 dollars, mind you the car had never run correctly). Program would not switch via the cruise control stick, nor would it clear the MIL light I had gotten from the checksum error. Eventually the ECM had to be replaced, even though the dealership was fully aware that the ECM had a chip soldered onto the board and had been flash programed with APR software, they relpalced the ECM for free without being asked to.

2.) APR/STaSIS Motorsports brake kit, purchased from Matrix Integrated, P.O. sent to APR, brakes drop shipped to me from STaSIS. I purchased these the first week of February 2005, Cost was $4120.00 paid in full by check, prior to being manufactured and shipped.

Although I paid full pop, the brakes went on sale two weeks after payment had been made (a promotion for SCR) mind you, if I had recevied my brakes, I would not have minded, I am a reasonable person...but they were still in production. It is industry standard that the price charged for an item is the price posted at the time of delivery. Basically I paid $800 more then the current advertised price.

OK, now that I had paid full price for a set of APR/STaSIS brakes for my B6 Audi A4. (370mm Motorsports in the front, Tracksports in the rear.) After being promised that the brakes had shipped by APR, I flew home from Germany to install them on leave. Arrived at my house only to find that indeed, the brakes had not even been manufactured. Spoke in person and via telephone with Stephen Hooks about this, he promised to get the matter resolved (must have used your "state of the art tools like CRM") actually he gave me his business card and a promise, that he would resolve this issue immediately.

I had never heard from Stephen Hooks, nor any other person involved in the APR organization...I waited for a couple of months, saw him in Washington...never recevied any help from him either. Finally this was brought to Paul Lambert's attention by myself...he immediately found a way to take care of me (it did not involve a refund, APR refused to give STaSIS, Matrix or myself a credit for the $800 bucks)

During this entire process, I never mentioned any of this online...

These are all facts, they are undisputible...the bottom line is anytime I speak my mind about your products or service, it is based upon facts,derived from my personal experiences with APR, not speculation. If you feel this is libelous or slander...feel free to file a complaint with the courts in Alabama, just remember, the truth is your defense.

Your company does not take care of customers, this is the general conscensus of the VW/Audi community, you know it, Stephen Hooks knows it, all of VW Vortex/Audizine/Audiworld knows it.

[BrettAPR]

400HPA4,

Thanks for the feedback. Seriously. I will make sure that people here read your concerns as those sort of things should not happen.

Brett
APR

[F16HTON]

Now that this has been vented, I will no longer mention anything. A little potshot about checksum errors is much less than giving a full blown testimonial. Ben did ask for it though.

[Emil@RENN-ART]

Originally posted by raulg_usa
>>>Yea, I'm definitely not impressed that all those dyno graphs are the same. Makes me suspicious...


EXACTLY !


revo tells us that the numbers are definitely different from the A3/GolfV to the A4... mainly due to the FMIC vs Dual IC's.

not 100% sure on this, but this could be as simple as a slow webmaster... [headbang] we're having a similar problem right now with our own site, and it's not fun. good website management is expensive, and even when you do go the expensive route, you're still not guaranteed a perfect job.

just like our own, brand new, address (for 2 months now) isn't correct on revo's homepage (the phone number is right but not the address)..

hopefully this will be updated soon. [wrench]

we're also offering sort of a sponsorship of those who get flashed and then come back to us with dyno sheets of before and after. we're going to have a customer testimonial/results page on our new homepage that should be up in a few days *crossing fingers*.

- - - -

we'll look into seeing if we could help organize some type of a "VW/Audi Tuner Shootout" [race] next year. should be a lot of fun! maybe there will be less animosity and more openess.

i mean, in the end, we're all here to support the enthusiasts out there. [up]

[az]

[XXXX]

REVO webmaster has decided to fix the hp and torque numbers..

[XXXX]

Originally posted by BrettAPR
The guys that "tune" the software at Revo used to work in the sales department at APR and have no technical background. These people would never ever qualify to work in the technical department at our company.
I guess those unqualified sales monkeys from REVO managed to beat your stage III+ in warmer weather, heavier car (B6A4 Avant) and with smaller turbo (GT2560R)..

.223 Reaction Time
1.819 60 ft
5.342 330 ft
8.210 1/8 mile
83.37 mph @ 1/8 mile
10.713 1000 ft
12.822 1/4 mile
107.33 mph @ 1/4 mile

http://www.revotechnik.com/images/logo.gif
http://www.ecodetuning.com/shop/images/HeaderFiles/EurocodeLogo.gif


Question Brett..

Did you personally tuned Tom's car?

Edit:

My bad Brett, they just did 12.79 @ 108.53

.178 Reaction Time
1.920 60 ft
5.420 330 ft
8.257 1/8 mile
85.32 mph @ 1/8 mile
10.714 1000 ft
12.798 1/4 mile
108.53 mph @ 1/4 mile

Video and slips will be posted tonight

[BrettAPR]

I guess those unqualified sales monkeys from REVO managed to beat your stage III+ in warmer weather, heavier car (B6A4 Avant)

That's great. Records are always meant to be broken. Now try it on 93 octane, instead of what, C-16? Tom's weight (nearly 300lbs) probably more than makes up for the weight difference of the Avant (especially if we are talking about Mike Hood @ ~ 140lbs). Tom was the first B6 A4 in the 12's and is still by far the fastest B6 A4 in the country on pump gas. Tuned for C-16 I would expect significantly fastest times in Tom's car but I would be concerned about bottom end reliability. There is a ton left in the kit (probably 5+ MPH) for the higher octane fuels but you will need rods at that point.

Tom's runs at the drag strips were no more than to demonstrate what our off-the-shelf kit could do at the track in real-world situations. No tricks, gimmicks, special fuels, special preparation or lightening was done to the car. We certainly weren't trying to set any world records. If we had, we would have run leaded race fuel, stuck some skinny kid in the car and done a bunch of other things to give us an advantage at the track. Heck, Tom's fat butt was in the seat (no offense Tom) not to mention that Tom is no professional drag-racer (look at his 60' times.) Real world situations that just about anyone could duplicate with our kit. It just happened that his times beat the pants off anyones times out there. I guess some of the hard-core drag racers didn't appreciate that.

Brett
APR

[Emil@RENN-ART]

nice!!!

1.92 isn't even a very good 60ft!

with a nice 1.7x 60ft, you can shave another couple tenths!!!

[XXXX]

Originally posted by BrettAPR
That's great. Records are always meant to be broken. Now try it on 93 octane, instead of what, C-16? Tom's weight (nearly 300lbs) probably more than makes up for the weight difference of the Avant (especially if we are talking about Mike Hood @ ~ 140lbs). Tom was the first B6 A4 in the 12's and is still by far the fastest B6 A4 in the country on pump gas. Tuned for C-16 I would expect significantly fastest times in Tom's car but I would be concerned about bottom end reliability. There is a ton left in the kit (probably 5+ MPH) for the higher octane fuels but you will need rods at that point.

Tom's runs at the drag strips were no more than to demonstrate what our off-the-shelf kit could do at the track in real-world situations. No tricks, gimmicks, special fuels, special preparation or lightening was done to the car. We certainly weren't trying to set any world records. If we had, we would have run leaded race fuel, stuck some skinny kid in the car and done a bunch of other things to give us an advantage at the track. Heck, Tom's fat butt was in the seat (no offense Tom) not to mention that Tom is no professional drag-racer (look at his 60' times.) Real world situations that just about anyone could duplicate with our kit. It just happened that his times beat the pants off anyones times out there. I guess some of the hard-core drag racers didn't appreciate that.

Brett
APR
Did I forget to mention this was done on MS109 unleaded, so your leaded fuel theory goes straight down the drain..

Would you agree that Avant besides the weight disadvantages also has aerodynamic disadvantages too?

before I forget, this is of the shelf REVO/Eurocode Eliminator turbo kit that used SPS3 unit.
No Lemmiwinks tweaks were applied.

Not bad for a $2600 turbo kit..

http://www.ecodetuning.com/shop/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=504&c=88

https://secure.memca.com/ecodetuning/images/products/504_large.jpg


Edit:
What did your kit do on 109 octane?

Did you personally tuned Tom car?

[BrettAPR]

Originally posted by XXXX
Did I forget to mention this was done on MS109 unleaded, so your leaded fuel theory goes straight down the drain..

109 >> 93 (The >> means much greater than [;)] )


Would you agree that Avant besides the weight disadvantages also has aerodynamic disadvantages too?

Uh, no.


What did your kit do on 109 octane?

This kit is only tuned for 93 octane. It makes too much power for the stock internals on 100+ octane. It has never been run on 109 octane fuel at the track.


Did you personally tuned Tom car?

No, but I was very involved with it. My role in calibration these days is more as a technical consultant.

Brett
APR

[XXXX]

Originally posted by BrettAPR
109 >> 93 (The >> means much greater than [;)] )

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a275/zemun2/apr.jpg



http://www.owned.com/Owned_Pictures/tysonkidowned.jpg

[BrettAPR]

XXXXX,

Please don't try to mislead people here. Look at Tom's 93 numbers, they are almost as fast as his 104 numbers. If you had read Tom's comments on his runs that night (which I know you did) you would have read that the 104 program that he was running was thrown together at the last minute and was not optimized or debugged (problems most likely because of boost control from the lower exhaust gas energy of the advanced timing with the 104.) Those were first tries, not his best results after numberous trips to the track. The 93 octane numbers are from our optimized production file. Oh, and BTW those were at 21-22 psi.

Brett
APR

[XXXX]

Originally posted by BrettAPR
XXXXX,

Please don't try to mislead people here. Look at Tom's 93 numbers, they are almost as fast as his 104 numbers. If you had read Tom's comments on his runs that night (which I know you did) you would have read that the 104 program that he was running was thrown together at the last minute and was not optimized or debugged (problems most likely because of boost control from the lower exhaust gas energy of the advanced timing with the 104.) Those were first tries, not his best results after numberous trips to the track. The 93 octane numbers are from our optimized production file. Oh, and BTW those were at 21-22 psi.

Brett
APR
Awesome Brett, keep up the good work..[up] [up]

BTW, how much does your kit go for?

[vinny.dtw]

im just grabbing popcorn reading all this, instead of doing my research paper...jeezus

[BrettAPR]

Originally posted by palewhitemale
OK... Enough of the speculation people.

here's the full break down.

C16
Mike Hood behind the wheel
pulled seats for weight saving
put on 17inch wheels

OK, I would insert the obligatory OWNED image file regarding the C16 but that would just be plain juvenile. Strangely this quoted post disappeared almost immediately from the thread on the B6 forum but I managed to copy and paste it to my clipboard first. Here is the post in it's entirety.

munch, munch

Brett
APR


Originally posted by palewhitemale
OK... Enough of the speculation people.

here's the full break down.

C16
Mike Hood behind the wheel
pulled seats for weight saving
put on 17inch wheels

Off-the-shelf REVO GTRS software.
Timing 9
Boost 9


end of story.


(BTW, Charlie asked me to post this)

-bill

[Daddy Shroom]

Well boys and girls, here is the difference in tuners. I guarantee no one from E-code tuning is going to come in and try to be all high and mighty pointing fingers at APR saying NU UH, NU UUUUHHH!!!

Brett, you are being immature about this IMO. The last company that came on here and tried this bullshit lost horribly, as you will. Ask Palewhitemale, ask nevah speed.

I hope to god that you aren't Tom's superior, because that would reflect horribly on him, he has been a nice guy so far.

Oh, BTW, Personally being at E-code last night when they were performing weight reduction, I saw the cans of M109 on the floor. So yeah, um, no C16, sorry, bill unfortunately was in the wrong.

Bottom line:
your product = More than eurocodes product
Your product = higher QM times
your product = getting bad press from you coming on and pointing fingers.

Thank you, and have a nice day.

Edit: Oh, and don't come at us saying you are defending your company and/or products, because you are just digging youself deeper and deeper in the hole. Quit while you are ahea....er.... Behind.

[BrettAPR]

Daddy,

Sorry to upset you. I didn't write the quoted text, it was copied directly from a post. Contact the original poster if you have questions regarding the posts authenticity.

People should have the entire story instead of just bits and pieces. For instance, your comment that "Your product = higher QM times" is just plain wrong. With the same fuel and similar conditions, the APR kit will spank the kit in question and to elude people into thinking otherwise is just plain misleading. This is not necessarily a matter of "superiority" it is more due to the fact that our kit includes more components that add up to higher power gains. Can you strip a car down, stick in a lightweight experienced driver, throw in some race fuel and beat our kit with a fullweight car, heavy driver on pump gas? Yes, this has just been proven but as another poster on another forum stated, this is comparing Apples to Oranges.

Thanks,

Brett
APR

[Ben@APR]

Originally posted by Daddy Shroom
Well boys and girls, here is the difference in tuners. I guarantee no one from E-code tuning is going to come in and try to be all high and mighty pointing fingers at APR saying NU UH, NU UUUUHHH!!!


[rolleyes]
No that is left up to the "posse"

Congrats on the achievement![up]

[Daddy Shroom]

Originally posted by BrettAPR
Daddy,

Sorry to upset you. I didn't write the quoted text, it was copied directly from a post. Contact the original poster if you have questions regarding the posts authenticity.

People should have the entire story instead of just bits and pieces. For instance, your comment that "Your product = higher QM times" is just plain wrong. With the same fuel and similar conditions, the APR kit will spank the kit in question and to elude people into thinking otherwise is just plain misleading. This is not necessarily a matter of "superiority" it is more due to the fact that our kit includes more components that add up to higher power gains. Can you strip a car down, stick in a lightweight experienced driver, throw in some race fuel and beat our kit with a fullweight car, heavy driver on pump gas? Yes, this has just been proven but as another poster on another forum stated, this is comparing Apples to Oranges.

Thanks,

Brett
APR

Brett, look. People buy products from companies that have a good track record. APR has a good track record. E-code has a good track record.

My point is this:

A company is selling proxuct X. Product X makes 400HP 440TQ. Product Y is being sold by another company. In the same circumstances, product Y makes 350HP and 390TQ.

Someone hears from 100 people that the company selling product X are unprofessional. They are arrogant, they are cocky, they are saying product Y is not making enough power, they are downright disrespectful.

That same person hears good things about a company selling product Y. They walk in, they are friendly, respectful, and don't disparage the competition.

In my honest opinion, more people will buy product Y, because of the good things, because of the service. You know why? Because later on, both companies might sell product Z, which blows the others away.

Brett, do yourself a favor, don't be the company selling product X. Delete your posts, turn your back, and walk away while people still respect your company.

[F16HTON]

Brett/Ben, we are sorry that a couple of people came in and turned this into a debate regarding Stage 3+ and the REVO/Eliminator. Today is Charlie's birthday, he ran his car at a sub par track and it performed very well. Just like I posted before, I am extremely impressed with Tom's times as well as the times Mike Hood put down in Charlie's car.

Most likely this debate will continue next spring, when the tracks open...untl then, I am very happy for both what you guys did as well as EuroCode/REVO.

I think in would be best for everyone to let this drop now, let Charlie enjoy his birthday, and his one week reign. [:D] I will be installing my 71r next week.

[XXXX]

Originally posted by BrettAPR
Daddy,

Sorry to upset you. I didn't write the quoted text, it was copied directly from a post. Contact the original poster if you have questions regarding the posts authenticity.

People should have the entire story instead of just bits and pieces. For instance, your comment that "Your product = higher QM times" is just plain wrong. With the same fuel and similar conditions, the APR kit will spank the kit in question and to elude people into thinking otherwise is just plain misleading. This is not necessarily a matter of "superiority" it is more due to the fact that our kit includes more components that add up to higher power gains. Can you strip a car down, stick in a lightweight experienced driver, throw in some race fuel and beat our kit with a fullweight car, heavy driver on pump gas? Yes, this has just been proven but as another poster on another forum stated, this is comparing Apples to Oranges.

Thanks,

Brett
APR
Eurocode is selling the Eliminator kit for $2599.
What is the price of your kit?

[Daddy Shroom]

lmao! Damn D!

If he is smart, he will just walk away....

[XXXX]

Originally posted by BrettAPR
Daddy,

Sorry to upset you. I didn't write the quoted text, it was copied directly from a post. Contact the original poster if you have questions regarding the posts authenticity.

People should have the entire story instead of just bits and pieces. For instance, your comment that "Your product = higher QM times" is just plain wrong. With the same fuel and similar conditions, the APR kit will spank the kit in question and to elude people into thinking otherwise is just plain misleading. This is not necessarily a matter of "superiority" it is more due to the fact that our kit includes more components that add up to higher power gains. Can you strip a car down, stick in a lightweight experienced driver, throw in some race fuel and beat our kit with a fullweight car, heavy driver on pump gas? Yes, this has just been proven but as another poster on another forum stated, this is comparing Apples to Oranges.

Thanks,

Brett
APR
Brett,
Are we talking apples to apples here, because last time I checked inferior Eurocode eliminator kit is running GT2560R, what turbo do you guys use with your APR Stage III+ kit (AKA Spanker kit)?

[BrettAPR]

XXXX/Daddy,

Go ahead and enjoy your cars. Just don't be surprised if the cars with APR Stage 3 badges go right by your cars with the eliminator kit. They are different kits and yes our kit is more expensive but the performance difference is there.

Brett
APR

[Daddy Shroom]

Originally posted by BrettAPR
XXXX/Daddy,

Go ahead and enjoy your cars. Just don't be surprised if the cars with APR Stage 3 badges fly right by your cars with the eliminator kit. I know that it would just kill you to come to this realization but that's OK. I just wanted to make sure that as few additional people as possible weren't similarily confused.

Brett
APR

Ahem. Allow me to reiterate in case you missed it the first time.


and the Daddy Shroom goes:

Brett, look. People buy products from companies that have a good track record. APR has a good track record. E-code has a good track record.

My point is this:

A company is selling proxuct X. Product X makes 400HP 440TQ. Product Y is being sold by another company. In the same circumstances, product Y makes 350HP and 390TQ.

Someone hears from 100 people that the company selling product X are unprofessional. They are arrogant, they are cocky, they are saying product Y is not making enough power, they are downright disrespectful.

That same person hears good things about a company selling product Y. They walk in, they are friendly, respectful, and don't disparage the competition.

In my honest opinion, more people will buy product Y, because of the good things, because of the service. You know why? Because later on, both companies might sell product Z, which blows the others away.

Brett, do yourself a favor, don't be the company selling product X. Delete your posts, turn your back, and walk away while people still respect your company.

[BrettAPR]

Daddy,

I agree with you to a large degree. But please reread my posts. I have said NOTHING deragatory about the eliminator kits nor the company selling it. I just think people should understand all the variables involved when making comparisons. I won't reiterate this again because most of the information is in my posts.

Thanks,

Brett
APR

[XXXX]

Originally posted by BrettAPR
Daddy,

I agree with you to a large degree. But please reread my posts. I have said NOTHING deragatory about the eliminator kits nor the company selling it. I just think people should understand all the variables involved when making comparisons. I won't reiterate this again because most of the information is in my posts.

Thanks,

Brett
APR
Every single post out of the 18 you made is putting down REVO, calling them incompetent and crooks.
The sole purpose for you joining the forum is to bash REVO..

[BrettAPR]

None of my posts in the past day about the times run even mentioned Revo. As for my previous posts, I was relaying factual information- Information that I can backup with hundreds of pages of evidence and a lawsuit victory. If I could not back up these facts I would never have stated them. Whether or not you choose to believe the facts is your choice and as you know I gave up some days ago trying to convince you on this. Those who do comprehend the facts understand that my comments were justifiable, if not tame.

Brett
APR

[Daddy Shroom]

Originally posted by BrettAPR
Daddy,

I agree with you to a large degree. But please reread my posts. I have said NOTHING deragatory about the eliminator kits nor the company selling it. I just think people should understand all the variables involved when making comparisons. I won't reiterate this again because most of the information is in my posts.

Thanks,

Brett
APR

Ok, lets get into this. Here we go.

Originally posted by BrettAPR
HEHE! Err, no there isn't...

(post number 1!)

Brett
APR
Irrelevant

Originally posted by BrettAPR
Keep the posts coming. You've got us rolling on the floor! It's amazing what a slick tongue can do! (Although it seems that it can't win you a lawsuit in the end!)

Brett
APR
Irrelevant, although, you are starting to sound like a tool.

Originally posted by BrettAPR
Can I get a shirt too? (seriously) It's only fair, right? [:p] XXL if possible. Thanks.

Brett
APR
No comment.

Originally posted by BrettAPR
I think it is safe to say that this would definitely qualify as an uneducated, biased opinion. Fact is, every product that the company you mentioned has produced up to this point has been a result of technology developed at APR. Audi Skate Snow, the software that runs in your car is in many ways APR software. In fact a very large percentage of this work was completed by yours truly. The guys that "tune" the software at Revo used to work in the sales department at APR and have no technical background. These people would never ever qualify to work in the technical department at our company. The fact that they had access too and had the lack of morals (their own words) to steal and use our technology means that they were able to produce a competitive product. As many of you may know this was the subject of a lawsuit that we brought up against this "company". In the end, the resulting deposition and discoveries put the writing on the wall and they eagerly requested a settlement (the details of which are, of course, confidential.)

As should be more than obvious to anyone who has invested the slightest amount of thought into the subject, it is not by matter of chance that we (APR) released our ME9 products and breakthrough products quite some time ago. Motronic 9 is a substantially different platform than ME7 and required a large amount of development effort. Tackling this sort of challenge is something that we are more capable of doing than any one of our competitors in the world. This is because we invest heavily in product development. The technology and personnel behind our products is real. We don't hide behind a corporate veil and let our distributors do all of the talking and working. Our products are not "derivative" products resulting from the work of others. When someone purchases a product from us they are not simply lining someone's pockets, this money is reinvested into development that serves to bring the industry forward.

Food for thought...

In closing, an excerpt from another post of mine:

You can trust us that the APR product will continue to lead the way in the 2.0T market. We have invested significantly more resources than any other company in the market in our products design. We have more programmers and engineers on staff than any of our competitors, in fact more than probably most of our competitors combined. It is not by accident that we are first to market with serial programming for 2.0T and multiple program switching. I would suggest that everyone shop carefully and see what is (or isn't) really behind a brand name. Suggested questions:

Who is doing the engine calibration and what are their credentials?
What tools are they using to do the calibration and who designed the tools?
Who are their programmers, how many do they have, and what are their credentials?
Are the companies paying royalty fees for technologies they are using?
Does the company have a real physical address with a complete onsite development staff or do they wander from location to location?
Has the company invested in the proper equipment to get the job done (or do they wander from place to place using others equipment)?


As an insider to the industry, I am completely aware of the answers to these questions as it applies to us and our competitors. I can say that if one were to ask and were to receive honest correct answers to these questions (probably not likely) from some of our competitors that they would be shocked and appalled to hear the answers. But don't take my word for it. Ask these questions yourself.


Brett
APR
And the proof is where exactly? Do you own APR, should you be Disparaging REVO? Isn't that called slander if it is not fact? Watch your ass....

Originally posted by BrettAPR
Originally released without switching. This was my call and I did so for two reasons:

a) due to the sheer sophistication of the new ME9 programming system I insisted that the release be broken up into two phases. The first phase released the performance software whereas the second phase introduced the EMCS options. This would allow us to debug any potential problems with the system with much greater ease as the number of potential factors was decreased considerably. This ended up being an excellent choice and both phases of the release went without incident.

b) We wanted to extend the beta testing of the EMCS functionality and this was a logical combination with (a).



No, uploads are fully supported.



The flash counter is retained to the value most commonly used on the production vehicles from the factory. IOW, no, we don't increment the flash counter.



Last workshop code is read and reused with the new burn. So no, the last workshop code is not changed.



Yes, the proper way. With multiple programs using complete calibration data block switching, not interpolation between maps.



Stage 2 software yes. If someone wants a testpipe software that is also available by special request.



Thanks, you too.

Brett
APR
In the face of confrontation with a tuner, you act professional, but yet, you like to belittle the people who buy your product?

Originally posted by BrettAPR
Nick tried several years ago but it didn't go anywhere. When you are as guilty as that bunch, the best thing you can do is shut up and ride the gravy train as long as people continue to throw money your way.

BTW, I will speak openly about those bunch of crooks (specifically, the first two) until the cows come home. It is a matter of principal. If you understood the truth about them then you would too.

Brett
APR
Again, either back yourself up or keep quiet. "Piss or get off the pot"

Originally posted by BrettAPR
Thanks, I feel sorry for everyone who has been misled. If you carefully have read what I have posted you will realize that I have raised important questions about the market and more often than not have left it up to the end user to come to their own conclusion. Here is a repost for the third time of questions that I pose that people ask of their "tuner". I do not see how this is defamatory:

Who is doing the engine calibration and what are their credentials?
What tools are they using to do the calibration and who designed the tools?
Who are their programmers, how many do they have, and what are their credentials?
Are the companies paying royalty fees for technologies they are using?
Does the company have a real physical address with a complete onsite development staff or do they wander from location to location?
Has the company invested in the proper equipment to get the job done (or do they wander from place to place using others equipment)?


As an insider to the industry, I am completely aware of the answers to these questions as it applies to us and our competitors. I can say that if one were to ask and were to receive honest correct answers to these questions (probably not likely) from some of our competitors that they would be shocked and appalled to hear the answers. But don't take my word for it. Ask these questions yourself.

Brett
APR
Feel free to answer your own questions any time now....

Originally posted by BrettAPR
Eh, actually not... Our company has continued to steadily increase our revenues up until this very day. If you checked your data you would see that the aforementioned company has actually consistently lost market share in the last year with the B6 market being one of the last holdouts. Combine this with a succesful outcome in our legal battle and it is pretty obvious that the situation is actually quite the opposite of what you suggest.

I would not say either that our situation is "extreme profitability" either. We are still very much in the growing stage and continue to reinvest nearly every single dime that comes through the door back into the company.

Regarding dyno charts, processed power figures are no less legitimate than a chassis dyno chart provided by a company. Either one can be manipulated to show whatever you wish. It comes down to the honesty of those reporting the figures and their competence in extracting the figures and running the tests.

I think a shootout or independent comparison sounds like a good idea. We would be willing to participate, provided it's performed in a fair manner.

Brett
APR
I agree. We shall see.

Originally posted by BrettAPR
400HPA4,

Thanks for the feedback. Seriously. I will make sure that people here read your concerns as those sort of things should not happen.

Brett
APR
irrelevant

Next 2 posts aren't related to this thread...

Back to this thread:

Originally posted by BrettAPR
That's great. Records are always meant to be broken. Now try it on 93 octane, instead of what, C-16? Tom's weight (nearly 300lbs) probably more than makes up for the weight difference of the Avant (especially if we are talking about Mike Hood @ ~ 140lbs). Tom was the first B6 A4 in the 12's and is still by far the fastest B6 A4 in the country on pump gas. Tuned for C-16 I would expect significantly fastest times in Tom's car but I would be concerned about bottom end reliability. There is a ton left in the kit (probably 5+ MPH) for the higher octane fuels but you will need rods at that point.

Tom's runs at the drag strips were no more than to demonstrate what our off-the-shelf kit could do at the track in real-world situations. No tricks, gimmicks, special fuels, special preparation or lightening was done to the car. We certainly weren't trying to set any world records. If we had, we would have run leaded race fuel, stuck some skinny kid in the car and done a bunch of other things to give us an advantage at the track. Heck, Tom's fat butt was in the seat (no offense Tom) not to mention that Tom is no professional drag-racer (look at his 60' times.) Real world situations that just about anyone could duplicate with our kit. It just happened that his times beat the pants off anyones times out there. I guess some of the hard-core drag racers didn't appreciate that.

Brett
APR

Now you are sounding cocky, to a consumer. What happened to the professionalism?


Originally posted by BrettAPR
109 >> 93 (The >> means much greater than [;)] )



Uh, no.



This kit is only tuned for 93 octane. It makes too much power for the stock internals on 100+ octane. It has never been run on 109 octane fuel at the track.



No, but I was very involved with it. My role in calibration these days is more as a technical consultant.

Brett
APR
This is where I think you are turning too cocky, and an asshole.

Originally posted by BrettAPR
XXXXX,

Please don't try to mislead people here. Look at Tom's 93 numbers, they are almost as fast as his 104 numbers. If you had read Tom's comments on his runs that night (which I know you did) you would have read that the 104 program that he was running was thrown together at the last minute and was not optimized or debugged (problems most likely because of boost control from the lower exhaust gas energy of the advanced timing with the 104.) Those were first tries, not his best results after numberous trips to the track. The 93 octane numbers are from our optimized production file. Oh, and BTW those were at 21-22 psi.

Brett
APR
Misleading? Your product speaks for itself right? Why get defensive?

Originally posted by BrettAPR
OK, I would insert the obligatory OWNED image file regarding the C16 but that would just be plain juvenile. Strangely this quoted post disappeared almost immediately from the thread on the B6 forum but I managed to copy and paste it to my clipboard first. Here is the post in it's entirety.

munch, munch

Brett
APR
Juvenile? People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
Originally posted by BrettAPR
Daddy,

Sorry to upset you. I didn't write the quoted text, it was copied directly from a post. Contact the original poster if you have questions regarding the posts authenticity.

People should have the entire story instead of just bits and pieces. For instance, your comment that "Your product = higher QM times" is just plain wrong. With the same fuel and similar conditions, the APR kit will spank the kit in question and to elude people into thinking otherwise is just plain misleading. This is not necessarily a matter of "superiority" it is more due to the fact that our kit includes more components that add up to higher power gains. Can you strip a car down, stick in a lightweight experienced driver, throw in some race fuel and beat our kit with a fullweight car, heavy driver on pump gas? Yes, this has just been proven but as another poster on another forum stated, this is comparing Apples to Oranges.

Thanks,

Brett
APR
Hmm. DId Mike hood get a better QM time than Tom? Maybe I am confused let me look it up.... 12.930 @ 106.85, nope! Mike's was faster!

Originally posted by BrettAPR
XXXX/Daddy,

Go ahead and enjoy your cars. Just don't be surprised if the cars with APR Stage 3 badges go right by your cars with the eliminator kit. They are different kits and yes our kit is more expensive but the performance difference is there.

Brett
APR
Hmm. Big mistake. I have no Eliminator, I am in the market for a Big TUrbo. But lets see who I will not be picking.... Thinking.. Thinking... APR! Way to make yourself and your company look bad! [down][:D] And I doubt it will "Fly by" once you guys get your shit straight, maybe it will creep by, and I will be looking at you thinking "What is this tool doing? He is BARELY pulling, but he is acting like a moron? OH! It must be Brett from APR!"

Originally posted by BrettAPR
Daddy,

I agree with you to a large degree. But please reread my posts. I have said NOTHING deragatory about the eliminator kits nor the company selling it. I just think people should understand all the variables involved when making comparisons. I won't reiterate this again because most of the information is in my posts.

Thanks,

Brett
APR
Ok, reviewed all of your posts, and my general consensus is that you are getting defensive, you are attacking REVO without anything to back it up, you are being a smartass to a potential APR buyer(me), and you are an all in all disrespectful person.

I will NEVER buy APR, not even a FUCKING SNUB MOUNT because of you. If you want to have the "Holier than thou" attitude, and not give a shit about the customers you lose, fine. The difference between you and most other tuners, is that they will fight for my fucking business, not sit back and think "oh well, we lost one, we will get 10 to make up for it." Go back to making ECU programs and stay away from the general public. I see why you aren't in sales, and APR should keep you locked up in a closet without access to the forums. You, my friend, are bad for business.

I am never going APR, and I will let everyone I know about the cocky guy named Brett that works for APR and thinks he is god.

Thank you.

[XXXX]

^^^^ This is gonna turn out into OWN a Brett day..

[the sheriff]

Originally posted by Daddy Shroom

Ok, reviewed all of your posts, and my general consensus is that you are getting defensive, you are attacking REVO without anything to back it up, you are being a smartass to a potential APR buyer(me), and you are an all in all disrespectful person.

I will NEVER buy APR, not even a FUCKING SNUB MOUNT because of you. If you want to have the "Holier than thou" attitude, and not give a shit about the customers you lose, fine. The difference between you and most other tuners, is that they will fight for my fucking business, not sit back and think "oh well, we lost one, we will get 10 to make up for it." Go back to making ECU programs and stay away from the general public. I see why you aren't in sales, and APR should keep you locked up in a closet without access to the forums. You, my friend, are bad for business.

I am never going APR, and I will let everyone I know about the cocky gut named Brett that works for APR and thinks he is god.

Thank you. [/B]

That's kind of funny because, I as a consumer, have watched the APR / Revo battle from back when Revo first surfaced and I actually side with Brett. I personally think, from what I have heard as fact, that Brett has every reason to feel the way he does. Unprofessional? I guess that's your take on it. I personally enjoy having his experience available to me on a public forum such as this. I have GIAC, Revo, and APR all available to me within a 10 mile geography and have decided to go with APR yet again. I don't view Bretts attitude as cocky as much as I view it as experienced. It's obvious you clearly have a different view of APR as a company than I do. He's lost you as a customer I guess - however he's kept me for sure. Just to clear anything up.....I have absolutely NO affiliation with APR what-so-ever......Just a consumer much like everyone else here.

[BrettAPR]

Daddy,

Sorry if I struck a nerve. I am not exactly trying too but I guess I let my guard down when I feel like I am being antagonized. I think in a few cases you may be reading a bit through the lines on my posts and got the wrong impression. Or maybe I was not communicating well.

Go back to making ECU programs and stay away from the general public. I see why you aren't in sales, and APR should keep you locked up in a closet without access to the forums.

Funny you should mention that. I actually have intentionally stayed away from the forums for some time. It takes up way too much time and there are always the pissing contests. I would rather focus on other things. It was actually requested of me by my colleagues that I begin posting more as they believed my contributions to the forums were beneficial to the company. If you do a search on Audiworld you will notice that my posts go back to early 1999 and I have contributed alot to technical discussions (among other things). I am very confident in the products we sell and our companies abilities. I am also sensitive to matters where I feel that our company has been wronged or taken advantage of. I apologize if this comes off as cocky or arrogant. Must be my German heritage. [:p]

Brett
APR

[BrettAPR]

the sheriff,

Thanks for the support. All of us at APR really appreciate it. I hope that we can continue to keep you as a happy customer. Don't hesitate to call and ask for me by name if you need anything.

Having said that, I probably do need to tone it down a notch on here. Not everybody has access to the same information and my posts aren't always the most PC. It's refreshing to hear from someone that understands our viewpoint though!

Daddy and xxxx, I really don't have anything at all against you guys. We are all Audi fans. I'll try and word my posts more carefully in the future.

Brett
APR

[XXXX]

Originally posted by BrettAPR
Daddy and xxxx, I really don't have anything at all against you guys. We are all Audi fans. I'll try and word my posts more carefully in the future.

Brett
APR
[a4]

In case if you guys haven't seen this..

http://www.ecodetuning.com/video/eliminator/elim.wmv

[BrettAPR]

Yeah, I saw it. That's great. I guess it's our turn next. [;)]

Brett
APR

[XXXX]

Originally posted by BrettAPR
Yeah, I saw it. That's great. I guess it's our turn next. [;)]

Brett
APR
Yup, ball is in your court..[;)]

You think you guys can do the same with GT2560R instead of GT28RS?