ECS RA4 clutch kit?

[jiggysmb]

I recently upgraded to the RA4 clutch kit offered at ECS. I got the car back earlier this week and was happy overall but the car has a horrid vibration with the clutch out. Reading the posts about more vibration being normal I dealt with it for a few days. I stopped by the shop that did the install today hoping it was an exhaust shield or something simple. Within a few minutes he said the noise is gone when the clutch is pressed in so it must be the throw out bearing or pressure plate. Unfortunately ECS does not reimburse for labor in their "warranty" so I will be out another $700 in labor to pull the exhaust and tranny. Has anyone else had a similar issue after installing this clutch kit? I have put about 400 miles on the car but could it be a normal seating period?

[BKLYNAUDI]

its the lightweight flywheel ...it can cause lots of noise and some vibration ....14 pounds is too light imo ...had a light flywheel and i took it out after a week of driving .....couldn't take the noise.... put back in dual mass stock flywheel and a spec stage 1 clutch....... no more noise and the spec stage 1 was soooo much better...

[AudiSport12]

It's 12lbs assuming same flywheel B5 uses. I know they're supposed to but I've never really had any noise or awkward vibration you speak of. MAYBE a little chatter going into first. I love mine though.

[ECS Tuning-Audi]

In all our road testing with this flywheel we never experienced significant vibration as you described. The shop should have never sent you home with the vehicle if they felt there was something wrong with the pressure plate or throw out bearing when they first took it on a test drive after installation.

Jason

[p0isin]

I have no vibrations or chatter with my ra4 lwfw and spec clutch

[jiggysmb]

Let me expand a bit on the vibrations. Accelerating from 2000 rpm or pulling out of gear at 3000+ and letting the rpms fall is when it is at its worse, the whole interior vibrates and sounds like a tin can vibrating. If the car in in N and reved above 3000, as the rpms fall the vibration is very noticeable. The off part is that when the clutch pedal is pressed in with the car in N and the revs above 3000 the vibration is gone. When driving the car in the 2000-3000 range the vibrations also stop when the clutch pedal is depressed.

I put no blame on the shop, they test drove the car and the clutch performed as it should. They stated lwfws can be noisy and cause more vibration. I had seen those complaints on forums when I was trying to decide on the purchase of the conversion kit. I never thought it would be this bad. The car sounds like a tin can now. I would never recommend anyone buy this kit. $800 for the kit and $700 labor sounded like a great idea. Now having to pay another $700 and hope it is a bad pressure plate or throw out, Im up to $2200. I am worried the vibrations will still be there and should have just paid Audi the $2500 to get the Dual mass fw and clutch replaced.

[martin0079]

Let me expand a bit on the vibrations. Accelerating from 2000 rpm or pulling out of gear at 3000+ and letting the rpms fall is when it is at its worse, the whole interior vibrates and sounds like a tin can vibrating. If the car in in N and reved above 3000, as the rpms fall the vibration is very noticeable. The off part is that when the clutch pedal is pressed in with the car in N and the revs above 3000 the vibration is gone. When driving the car in the 2000-3000 range the vibrations also stop when the clutch pedal is depressed.

I put no blame on the shop, they test drove the car and the clutch performed as it should. They stated lwfws can be noisy and cause more vibration. I had seen those complaints on forums when I was trying to decide on the purchase of the conversion kit. I never thought it would be this bad. The car sounds like a tin can now. I would never recommend anyone buy this kit. $800 for the kit and $700 labor sounded like a great idea. Now having to pay another $700 and hope it is a bad pressure plate or throw out, Im up to $2200. I am worried the vibrations will still be there and should have just paid Audi the $2500 to get the Dual mass fw and clutch replaced.

If the vibrations go away when the pedal is depressed then this is not a throwout bearing. The throwout bearing becomes active when you depress the clutch pedal.

[ECS Tuning-Audi]

Still sounds like motor mounts to me. Could be as simple as your snub mount is misaligned and is causing vibration. LWFWs are really only known for chatter. Which is not vibration it's usually a noise when under low RPM the torque demand is high. For example if you are in 3rd gear at 1800 RPM and you try to accelerate hard. You'll likely experience some chatter at first. Basically anytime the load is high and RPMs are low.

Jason

[jiggysmb]

Still sounds like motor mounts to me. Could be as simple as your snub mount is misaligned and is causing vibration. LWFWs are really only known for chatter. Which is not vibration it's usually a noise when under low RPM the torque demand is high. For example if you are in 3rd gear at 1800 RPM and you try to accelerate hard. You'll likely experience some chatter at first. Basically anytime the load is high and RPMs are low.

Jason

Jason
This makes sense, but my motor mounts were replaced at 142k at the dealer which have only 13k on them. The noise was not there before installing the clutch kit. The mechanic just installed another LUK clutch kit and most of the noises are still there, most noticable the tin can rattle when changing gear. He is recommending a steel flywheel but I cant afford the labor to have this job done a third time right now.

[ECS Tuning-Audi]

Jason
This makes sense, but my motor mounts were replaced at 142k at the dealer which have only 13k on them. The noise was not there before installing the clutch kit. The mechanic just installed another LUK clutch kit and most of the noises are still there, most noticable the tin can rattle when changing gear. He is recommending a steel flywheel but I cant afford the labor to have this job done a third time right now.


Unfortunately sounds are difficult to diagnose over a computer and without being able to physically drive the vehicle. It could even be a heat shield rattling or part of the exhaust.

Our flywheel is made out of steel and is on the heavier side which was intended to eliminate chatter as much as possible. But to me what you are describing doesn't sound like chatter if its only occurring when you change gears. Chatter happens while driving or accelerating under heavy load at low RPM.

Jason

[Hugh@EuropaParts]

If your mechanic needs to do it a 3rd time he's going to probably need a 4th and 5th... I would personally cut my losses short and look for another mechanic.

[jcsa4]

^^^^^^^^^^ What he said. Where in Md are you? I'm just across the line from Elkton, if I can help let me know. Shoot me a PM.

[jiggysmb]

Unfortunately sounds are difficult to diagnose over a computer and without being able to physically drive the vehicle. It could even be a heat shield rattling or part of the exhaust.

Our flywheel is made out of steel and is on the heavier side which was intended to eliminate chatter as much as possible. But to me what you are describing doesn't sound like chatter if its only occurring when you change gears. Chatter happens while driving or accelerating under heavy load at low RPM.

Jason

Jason-ECS sent me a new clutch and pressure plate (ES#2550660) last week which was just installed today. I just picked the car up and a good bit of the noise has been resolved. The tin can rattle that was very noticeable reving at idle in neutral and during gear changes as been reduced about 50%. It is still there but not nearly as noticeable unless you are trying to hear it. The mechanic said it was due to the little springs on the pressure plate trying to do what the heavier springs in the DMFW did in my OEM clutch. Unfortunately the low level vibration at low RPM is still there but can be avoided if I dont accelerate under 2200 RPM. I hope ECS covers the return under warranty and doesnt state the noise was "normal". Now I just have to get over paying another $650 in labor. If I would have let the shop order the parts through Federated from the start, they would have covered the labor to redo the job :-(

jcsa4-I'm up a little north near York PA now, but thanks for the offer. I think the next time I need a clutch I will go back to a Dual Mass. Hopefully that is not another 150k

[ECS Tuning-Audi]

The small springs on the pressure plate are the self adjusting springs. These sometimes need to be reset as they can get bumped around during shipping. Though if the mechanic was experienced with Audi's he should know that and should always double check they are set properly prior to installation. Also, they don't do anything like the springs in the DMFW. The springs that dampen engagement like the ones on a DMFW are on the clutch disc. To me this mechanic seems very inexperienced with Audi's from what he has told you.

Jason

[jiggysmb]

The small springs on the pressure plate are the self adjusting springs. These sometimes need to be reset as they can get bumped around during shipping. Though if the mechanic was experienced with Audi's he should know that and should always double check they are set properly prior to installation. Also, they don't do anything like the springs in the DMFW. The springs that dampen engagement like the ones on a DMFW are on the clutch disc. To me this mechanic seems very inexperienced with Audi's from what he has told you.

Jason

Yes, I see the ECS guys like to blame mechanics. This guy has been doing VW/Audi work for 16 years.

[ECS Tuning-Audi]

I'm not blaming anyone. To me he just seems inexperienced by the things he's told you. Which mostly have been incorrect.

Jason

[jiggysmb]

I'm not blaming anyone. To me he just seems inexperienced by the things he's told you. Which mostly have been incorrect.

Jason

I am not a mechanic so please don't assume I quoted his theory properly. I understand different people have differing results with car kits and after market parts. I just wanted to share my experience. Googling "audi a4 single mass flywheel vibration" will yield 10s of thousands of results. Many end with the owners going back to a DMFW which I would have done from the start if I had known. ECS has been great to me and my cars for many years and I will continue to buy parts there. I fully take responsibility for the result of modifying the OEM set up.

[malathion]

If I may recommend, a Fluidampr pulley. Many people across the board, regardless of vehicle make/model have reported that their associated "chatter" with installing a lightweight flywheel being completely gone after installing one.

I just installed one last week in preparation for my lightweight flywheel and stage 3 clutch.

[Axis]

^^ off topic but where did you buy yours? I feel retarded because I didnt get one yet and I run a smfw and on 06A oil pump. Should help smooth it out.

Also, did you remove your front end or only putting it in service mode will allow enought space?

[malathion]

^^ off topic but where did you buy yours? I feel retarded because I didnt get one yet and I run a smfw and on 06A oil pump. Should help smooth it out.

Also, did you remove your front end or only putting it in service mode will allow enought space?

Anywhere but this is the one you want http://www.uspmotorsports.com/Engine/Pulleys/Fluidampr-Engine-Damper-2.0T-FSI.html with part number 551121

Did it while replacing my timing belt, thermostat, water pump, serpentine. All done in service position [up]

[Obsidian]

Not much of a fan of ECS products in general. I personally would have went with a South Bend (http://www.dxdracingclutches.com/ecommerce/K70350F-HD-O.cfm?item_id=2740) clutch if I were you. Had one in my last car and couldn't of been happier with it. They have been nearly flawless across so many platforms and they are a company that truly stands behind their product. I would highly recommend them to anyone that replacing there clutch. [up]

[onedumslack]

FWIW I have a fluidampr and still have chatter. I put the fluidampr on before the clutch kit so I don't know how much it helped, just that it's still there.

[ECS Tuning-Audi]

Not much of a fan of ECS products in general. I personally would have went with a South Bend (http://www.dxdracingclutches.com/ecommerce/K70350F-HD-O.cfm?item_id=2740) clutch if I were you. Had one in my last car and couldn't of been happier with it. They have been nearly flawless across so many platforms and they are a company that truly stands behind their product. I would highly recommend them to anyone that replacing there clutch. [up]

We don't make clutches. Only the flywheel. The clutch he used was Genuine Audi manufactured by LUK.

Jason

[deusilan]

I've had the RA4 clutch kit in my A4 for around 16,000 miles now and only get the typical clutch chatter.
My car does vibrate a hell of a lot more but that's because I'm using RS4 Motor mounts.
Only speaking from personal experience check your exhaust and see if anything is loose. My front clamp had completely rusted off and the pipes were loose. That could be your metal rattle...

[jiggysmb]

I've had the RA4 clutch kit in my A4 for around 16,000 miles now and only get the typical clutch chatter.
My car does vibrate a hell of a lot more but that's because I'm using RS4 Motor mounts.
Only speaking from personal experience check your exhaust and see if anything is loose. My front clamp had completely rusted off and the pipes were loose. That could be your metal rattle...

Thanks for the tip deusilan. We have checked exhaust and shielding multiple times hoping it would be that simple. The vibrations and rattling werent there before the new clutch kit and almost totally go away with the clutch petal depressed. The chatter is noticable when starting the car but I dont hear it much after that. The sounds comes right after a gear shift when RPMs drop and when accelerating under load. It sounds like a penny vibrating in a tin can. I have quite a few people interested at this point so I am going to try to get the sound on video later today.

[jiggysmb]

Here is a collection of sounds. It was hard to record as the high pitch rattle sounds like it is coming from inside the car but I couldn't get a good recording out the window which is much louder. The first of 4 clips is with the windows down and it is the loudest. The next 3 are with windows up where you cant hear the low rattle but the high pitched rattle is much more noticeable. After having this beautiful car for 10 years, I am now ashamed to drive it out.
https://youtu.be/3ZasfB9BCLk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZasfB9BCLk

[kTaLgsTo]

Strange noise. I have no experience with flywheel rattle. But that almost sounds like a fartcan on a honda, from far away




Edited because of auto correct

[ECS Tuning-Audi]

To me personally that sounds like an exhaust leak. Maybe even from the flex section? The flex section is made up of an accordion type pipe then wrapped in metal basket weave. If there is a hole in the accordion section and part of the weave begins to fray it can make a sound similar to that.

You have to remember when you start moving exhaust pieces around that are 10+ years old you can could easily cause damage to the exhaust from all the corrosion over time. The down pipe (where the flex section is) has to be removed to put the clutch/flywheel in. So it would make sense that the sound started after the clutch was installed since it needs to be removed and then installed again.

The flex section is also located right under the foot well which would give the illusion of coming from inside the vehicle as well.

Exhaust leaks on boosted cars make all kinds of funny noises since the exhaust is being forced out by the turbo so when you let off the gas and you are no longer in boost there may not be enough pressure to cause the sound. Which would explain why you may not hear it constantly and only under acceleration.

Just my .02

Jason

[jiggysmb]

Thanks Jason. I have an appointment with the dealer tomorrow morning to figure out what's making the noise.

[ECS Tuning-Audi]

Keep us updated!

Jason

[panman142]

Thanks Jason. I have an appointment with the dealer tomorrow morning to figure out what's making the noise.

+2 on what happens with the flex pipe. I have this kit installed on my A4, definitely have a little chatter, but also a flex pipe with 115k on it, I'd be interested to see if it quiets down at all. I don't mind the sound at all, well worth the reduced rotation mass imo

[Nick-B7]

Still sounds like motor mounts to me. Could be as simple as your snub mount is misaligned and is causing vibration. LWFWs are really only known for chatter. Which is not vibration it's usually a noise when under low RPM the torque demand is high. For example if you are in 3rd gear at 1800 RPM and you try to accelerate hard. You'll likely experience some chatter at first. Basically anytime the load is high and RPMs are low.

Jason

+1

[jiggysmb]

Jason, the dealer confirmed your suspicion and said it sounded like an exhaust problem. I would be looking at about $2500 to replace downpipe/resonator/mufflers. Apparently they all showed some signs of age. I ordered a new OE downpipe from ECS and it was installed about an hour ago. The vibration sound has changed a bit but is still there so it could still be exhaust related. The vibration inside the car is much less, almost gone, but the tin can noise outside of the car is still there accelerating under a load. I do not want to go the resonator delete route but may look in to other options to replace the rest of the exhaust system.

[AudiSport12]

Hmm. Your first shop rang ya up pretty good! Glad to see the issue is getting resolved though. I promise, you'll enjoy the clutch/flywheel once you get your noise fully situated.

[ECS Tuning-Audi]

Jason, the dealer confirmed your suspicion and said it sounded like an exhaust problem. I would be looking at about $2500 to replace downpipe/resonator/mufflers. Apparently they all showed some signs of age. I ordered a new OE downpipe from ECS and it was installed about an hour ago. The vibration sound has changed a bit but is still there so it could still be exhaust related. The vibration inside the car is much less, almost gone, but the tin can noise outside of the car is still there accelerating under a load. I do not want to go the resonator delete route but may look in to other options to replace the rest of the exhaust system.

Glad to hear the downpipe fixed most of the noise. Likely the other parts of the exhaust are still causing sounds. Check out the Borla exhaust for you vehicle. Much less expensive than the OEM pieces. It's resonated too so you'll have a nice exhaust note but not too loud.

Click HERE (https://www.ecstuning.com/Audi-B7_A4-Quattro-2.0T/Exhaust/Performance/Cat_Back/ES2748968/?salesrep=JMarusic&utm_source=audizine&utm_medium=forum&utm_content=JMarusic&utm_campaign=newpost)
https://c1552172.ssl.cf0.rackcdn.com/616230_x800.jpg (https://www.ecstuning.com/Audi-B7_A4-Quattro-2.0T/Exhaust/Performance/Cat_Back/ES2748968/?salesrep=JMarusic&utm_source=audizine&utm_medium=forum&utm_content=JMarusic&utm_campaign=newpost)

Jason