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View Full Version : It happened. Bent valves.



xthealienatorx
11-16-2015, 02:36 PM
Hey all, so, i did a oil change over the weekend and when started it (i guess from being dry) It broke my cam chain tensioner pad off. I knew it was bad, but wasnt brave enough to replace it. We put a new one in and got crazy misfires. We did a compression test and had no compression on 4 with 180-190 on the other 5. We put an inspection camera down the spark plug tube and see this.
https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfl1/v/t1.0-9/12234922_10205361119614966_3576926491346720102_n.j pg?oh=31033ad47ed2e1494caf1c799ed42897&oe=56B44546
So, time for a valve job? Im going to pull the head first and fully asses the damage. Ive never dove this far into an engine and kinda nervous, any advise guys? My dad mentioned needing a tool and some kind of paste to seat the valve. The last time he did this was on a MK1 Escort in England, so i dont know if things have changed. I also saw about need to resurface the head? Right now im looking to order the gasket kit from ECS or FCP. Then ill also need stem seals. Head bolts? and whatever valves are bent. How about guides? Ive done some searching and cant find anything on any forums. I do have access to a bentley manual on the computer. TIA

ray4624
11-16-2015, 02:50 PM
might be cheaper to just source a set of heads

Seerlah
11-16-2015, 04:45 PM
When you pop off the head, the piston will show what valves made contact. You only have to replace those ones. You will need a valve spring compressor. Valve guide seal doesn't need to be changed if you dont want, but that also requires a different tool.

You check your guides by seeing if the replacement valves slide up and down the guide with no resistance or being hung up. If so, they need to either be replaced or honed. Either of these need to be done by a shop. I am sure you can look up how to do it yourself, if you wanted.

If it were me, I would most likely either pick up some cheap replacement used oem ones off ebay. Actually, I would ask on here first if anybody had some laying around they could spare. Bet you s4 guys have a bunch. Then just use lapping compound to seat the replacement valves.

nynoah
11-16-2015, 05:01 PM
Look for a used head or bring the head to a shop. Honestly if you don't have the right tools don't attempt to do a valve job.

vrmm
11-16-2015, 05:22 PM
I don't know how much a valve spring compressor is, but I use one of these. And get a 5/8's socket and cut out some of the side. Or just buy the right stuff ;) that's more expensive.... Use a pick and assembly lube on the retainer pins to get them back on. To get them off lay the head flat and place something underneath the valve so it can't compress the spring. Then take like a 15mm deep socket and a hammer and hit it till the retaining pins come out. http://www.autobodytoolmart.com/vise-grip-9-locking-c-clamp-swivel-pads-9sp-p-14402.aspx

Pour some sort of liquid with a low viscosity in the intake and ex ports and see which leak. Some leakage is fine. Like a slow slow drool. It'll have lower compression, but it'll most definitely still work. Anything else change them.

It would be a little over the top to buy a new head. I have used my head bolts probably 5 times and they haven't broken with 400hp+ the whole time. I'll admit since the 3rd time I've been scared shitless everytime I torque them, but once is nothing to worry about(in my books). You don't need to change the valve seals or guides unless you really want to. You also probably don't need to lap/seat the new valves. I never have with the 60 or so valves I've put in audi's and subarus. I only do when they're seaping while doing what I mentioned ^^. That's only been once in an engine with 250k.

That's just my opinion. I don't like to waste money.
Also you should use ringer racing instead of ecs. They're overpriced tw*ts no one should use them :)

valleycruiser
11-16-2015, 07:12 PM
Phone-up a couple engine rebuild places before you tackle this yourself, you might be surprised at how economical they can be. When I worked at an engine machine shop in the late 80's, we charged $60 per V8 cast iron head. Not sure how much it is now, but my guess it's worth the money to do it right.
Most cyl heads do not need resurfacing BTW.
We always lapped the valves a bit to witness how accurate the valves seat, because this is how valves, (esp exaust valves) dissipate heat to the cyl. head. These are some of the little things many of us might not think about.

walky_talky20
11-16-2015, 09:39 PM
Sounds like you probably need to pop the head off and just put 1 or 2 valves in it, and slam it back together. No need to go crazy on it. Almost certainly no need to resurface it.

Find which valves hit the piston. Even if they aren't visibly bent and hold the liquid test - if they touched the piston and left a mark you must replace them.

Here is a quick write-up I did on installing replacement valves in an Audi 5-valve head (1.8T, but almost identical to 2.8 30V):
http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/518943-T-belt-failed-during-a-blizzard?p=8325830&viewfull=1#post8325830

Notably, it does not show lapping in the valves, because I didn't do it. Should be done, although with quality valves and non-womped valve seats they should seal "good enough" out of the box. You can see how to lap the valves on youtube, I'm sure. A piece of vacuum hose, a drill with good speed control, and some valve grinding compound is all you need.

Seerlah
11-17-2015, 03:30 AM
Also be sure to place the lifters back into the same hole they came out. Truthfully, after price of tools it may be more cost efficient to pick up valves after knowing how many to pick up, drop it off at a machine shop and have them do it for you. I am thinking price would be around $150 or so. Have them clean the surface as a deck isnt necessary since it is the original head of the block. If you pick up a different head then that would need to be decked.

xthealienatorx
11-17-2015, 06:43 AM
I have one of these, but im assuming its to big for my application.
https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/12278742_10205363591396759_914991683943360092_n.jp g?oh=68fc2746f6d61749b4979be5c2f671b9&oe=56F31163

and i would need one of these
http://www.eastwood.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/412x/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/p43010.jpg

vrmm
11-17-2015, 02:51 PM
Correct. You need the second. Not a chance the first will fit.

andyrew
11-17-2015, 04:01 PM
http://www.amazon.com/OTC-4572-Large-Spring-Compressor/dp/B000F5ECUY


This one looks good...

MetalMan
11-17-2015, 04:23 PM
I have this one in my cart right now:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00DZX31QY/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A1Y4RBJHD0SC34

But have no idea if it's any good.

Seerlah
11-18-2015, 04:42 AM
^ I have this one for the 1.8t. Save money and just borrow mine when you need it.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00BYMZ1TI/ref=mp_s_a_1_7?qid=1447850483&sr=8-7&pi=AC_SX110_SY165&keywords=Vw+valve+spring+compressor&dpPl=1&dpID=41Kk4eijErL&ref=plSrch

Rodgman15
11-18-2015, 06:35 AM
If you have a drill press, you can use a socket that's been cut out to compress the springs. We use that at our shop, fits ANY head from any vehicle. We have different sockets cut for different sized springs.

andyrew
11-18-2015, 07:12 AM
^ I have this one for the 1.8t. Save money and just borrow mine when you need it.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00BYMZ1TI/ref=mp_s_a_1_7?qid=1447850483&sr=8-7&pi=AC_SX110_SY165&keywords=Vw+valve+spring+compressor&dpPl=1&dpID=41Kk4eijErL&ref=plSrch

That looks easy enough to build.... hmmm...

I might take you up on that offer myself Seerlah

MetalMan
11-18-2015, 07:44 AM
Oh man, so many good ideas. For the drill press, do you just rotate the base to match the angle of the valve? (I would assume so)
And Mitch, that's awesome of you. May have to take you up on it.

Rodgman15
11-18-2015, 08:11 AM
Oh man, so many good ideas. For the drill press, do you just rotate the base to match the angle of the valve? (I would assume so)
And Mitch, that's awesome of you. May have to take you up on it.

Yes, on our small press we have a bed that can rotate up and down as well as side to side, it's a little cheap piece of crap so not expensive by any means, probably cost less than those compressor tools lol. A small piece of wood clamped to the bed keeps the head from sliding off if it's tipped down.

xthealienatorx
11-19-2015, 04:25 PM
How the F*** do I get the exhaust off??.......

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xthealienatorx
11-19-2015, 04:42 PM
Is this what I need for the head bolts?
https://www.ecstuning.com/Audi-B5_A4-Quattro-V6_30v/Engine/Tools/ES1876780/

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Rodgman15
11-19-2015, 04:51 PM
That's the one.

Avant Nate
11-19-2015, 05:05 PM
http://www.amazon.com/OTC-4572-Large-Spring-Compressor/dp/B000F5ECUY


This one looks good...

I have this one and the adapter piece is too big for the intake valves. I made a new adapter using an a deep well socket.

As far as the head bolt tool, are there different ones for different generations of v6's like the 1.8t? The polydrive socket can be had cheaper on Amazon. http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B000PH6VLU/ref=pd_aw_sim_sbs_263_1?ie=UTF8&dpID=21oSpsJK0mL&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL100_SR100%2C100_&refRID=16BQ4C1PFBKDGATQKPWH

Seerlah
11-19-2015, 05:42 PM
On the topic of spring compressors, this one looks like a cool one. Wish I purchased this one. One in the link is not only cheaper, but can work on on vehicles. The one I have makes compressing the springs incredibly easy. Sort of dummy proof.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B009GLIOSE/ref=pd_aw_sim_sbs_201_1?ie=UTF8&dpID=41nNPy8TYPL&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL100_SR100%2C100_&refRID=0J32S7X6J2SB395MG27B

MetalMan
11-20-2015, 08:02 AM
As far as the head bolt tool, are there different ones for different generations of v6's like the 1.8t? The polydrive socket can be had cheaper on Amazon. http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B000PH6VLU/ref=pd_aw_sim_sbs_263_1?ie=UTF8&dpID=21oSpsJK0mL&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL100_SR100%2C100_&refRID=16BQ4C1PFBKDGATQKPWH

I just placed an order for this one yesterday. Best price around by $10 + shipping. Should work according to the reviews, so hopefully it holds up and doesn't break or anything.

xthealienatorx
11-25-2015, 12:15 PM
4http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/11/25/e7ed8d63a735bd05e036305398994c51.jpg
5http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/11/25/b7a83a33be92f9da51aab5e8b7254d6b.jpg
6http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/11/25/e91178d2b57146d4924ab7934ecb11d7.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/11/25/512caea0f43c6fa3ccb99b23a9dbfb0f.jpg
So it looks like they all hit. The one valve on 4 is definitely bent, but 5 and 6 held compression better then 1,2,3. So should I still replace all nine? Also, about sanding the top of the pistions, any info/advice?

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walky_talky20
11-25-2015, 12:32 PM
Looks like just 3 hit, to me. The center intake valve on each cylinder. Inspect very closely to see if any others made contact, but from here it looks like you just need 3 valves

xthealienatorx
11-25-2015, 12:34 PM
On the head itself, the center valves are clean like they've touched something. For the others I was going off the fact that the carbon was knocked off the piston.

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walky_talky20
11-25-2015, 12:39 PM
If it just knocked off the carbon, the valve should be fine. If it's metal-to-metal, then you need to change the valve. Let's see pics of the head, already! lol

You can look very closely at the edges of the valves where they would have hit the piston. See what it looks like there.

xthealienatorx
11-25-2015, 12:53 PM
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/11/25/c2be1688a2ac1bde4bb1f1e4e3b2531c.jpg

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walky_talky20
11-25-2015, 01:16 PM
Not too bad at all. The 3 center intakes, definitely. Then just look *real* close at the other intake valves. See if there is any sign of actual contact on the edges (ie: carbon chipped off the edge of the valve. It still looks like just the 3, though.

xthealienatorx
12-02-2015, 06:09 AM
For the compressor, i think im going to make something like this. We've got a bunch of scrap aluminum so it'll be almost no cost.

http://www.pureluckdesign.com/vw/vsc/

Ill probably change it up a bit, ive had the idea of doing this for a while, searched it and this was the first result.

I ordered, three valves and the gasket kit from europa parts, as well as other gaskets not included like egr, manifold to cat, and the cam sealing cap which ive replaced three times and continues to leak.

So far i'm in about $250 including tools.

walky_talky20
12-02-2015, 08:17 AM
For the cam plug, I'd probably suggest taking the rear cam bearing cap, and installing a new plug coated with some Permatex Ultra Black RTV sealant (or something equally good).

My father has been using a nifty trick lately to fix these leaking 2.8 caps "in situ". He gets one of the B6 1.8T hydro tensioner retainer "plates" (that you normally throw away) and fits the notched end under a bolt and the rest of it pushes against the back of the plug. This serves to keep constant pressure on the plug and fixes the leak. I've not actually seen one installed yet, but it must work well enough because he's been collecting all the little hydro tensioner retainers. You could easily fashion a small piece of metal to do the same thing, but the recycling aspect is neat.

xthealienatorx
12-12-2015, 12:28 PM
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/12/12/cce86e96686c08c1fe4d41f99f449eab.jpg
Here is the compressor we made, it even has a light! Lol. Anyway, I'm a little fuzy on the procedure for installing the cams as far as the chain goes, could someone clarify it please?

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xthealienatorx
12-12-2015, 04:16 PM
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/12/12/8bc47425f6331f0850601948e6dbfe80.jpghttp://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/12/12/e8f81e5123008cce409986cfb9d2dc1a.jpg

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walky_talky20
12-12-2015, 08:29 PM
Nice work!

For cam install, there are a few methods, but on the bench it's probably easiest to just throw everything in together. The CCT (w/holder tool installed), chain and both cams. Just set them in place. Then tighten the cam caps down EVENLY. So as to keep the camshaft perfectly horizontal at all times. A little on each cap, and just work it down evenly. One cam at a time is a good idea. At TDC is also a good idea.

Make sure you count your 16 links and have it timed right before you tighten the cams down. Reference the photos below for how to count them. If you made your own marks, great. Use the factory marks as a double check.

http://i1382.photobucket.com/albums/ah276/walky_talky22/2.8-cam-timing-1_zps9o4lvyvr.png

http://i1382.photobucket.com/albums/ah276/walky_talky22/2.8-cam-timing-Left-Front_zpsntb9ciwi.png

xthealienatorx
12-15-2015, 07:13 AM
Thanks! I did it right.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/12/15/83572ac608f63a698a037a8f443841f3.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/12/15/fe5e1fb61d8c84d70a4daf09106704cd.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/12/15/82047bd1f7c8a72f0108f3ece2252adc.jpg
She's back alive! Such a relief...

We had to grind in the one valve that was really bent as it messed up the seat. The other 2 sealed fine.

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walky_talky20
12-15-2015, 08:57 AM
Nice job!