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vrmm
10-25-2015, 06:58 PM
I have a timing correction of 0 or 6. Nothing in between.

I also have camshaft position sensor short to ground. Am I getting the 0 or 6 because of this 'short'? Swapping sensors didn't help so I suppose it may actually be a short.

My timing number are up and down like they should be. Just correction is wonky.

vrmm
10-25-2015, 07:06 PM
http://i1240.photobucket.com/albums/gg500/atomicrider4/uhbbhhhhh_zpsvoc3ne3p.png

Spectre1130
10-26-2015, 12:07 AM
Pretty sure your crankshaft position sensor controls spark timing.

vrmm
10-26-2015, 06:25 AM
I guess I should've known that. I figured the camshaft may have also had something to do with it. So knock sensors are what cause timing pull then? Is there anything else?

redline380
10-26-2015, 06:34 AM
Here's my limited understanding-

The crank sensor picks up the signal from the crank wheel; there is one large window to show TDC. The ECU checks with the cam sensor to ensure things are still timed correctly. The ECU throws some timing at the spark, and if there is any knock, the knock sensors will try to find out which hole it is coming from and timing will be reduced to a level that knock doesn't happen at.

Because of your numbers and code, I would look very closely at the crank position sensor and verify the knock sensor are bolted tight.

Seerlah
10-26-2015, 07:27 AM
The knock sensors are sensitive to tq value placed onto the bolts for them. They should be bolted to torque spec. I have not done this personally, but have a decent feeler. And when i rebuilt my engine second time around, i had a dtc for high voltage output on one of the sensors. Popped up like 3 times or so and never recoccured. Only happened when driving higher rpm when engine was not warm. Pretty reckless, but i have yet to log my setup after engine rebuild #2 (really need to do this just to see where things stand). Roughly 3000 miles in.

walky_talky20
10-26-2015, 07:46 AM
I would say that is a little odd, and likely more to do with changes to the software than anything else. Those timing retard numbers are driven by the software interpretation of the knock sensor signals.

This car is running some modified ECU software, yes?

vrmm
10-26-2015, 05:24 PM
I have maestro me3/5. I've tried lowering the timing table to account for that 6 pull, but it still has 0 or 6. The highest timing I have in my table is 24 degrees lowest load 3k-4.2krpms. At wot 5000rpm's it should be like 11 which is lowered from previously 16.

I do know in the past I have gotten number 1-9 for timing pull, so it did work at some point.

I'll check my crank position sensor since I haven't in ages. I will take a gander at my knock sensor bolts, but I really don't wanna create issues if I can't get them torqued right. I did pull the whole harness out, so maybe I cracked a wire or they just don't have a good ground. I did however log knock voltage and it was consistent with what I have always had.

Dan[FN]6262
10-26-2015, 05:54 PM
How old is your O2 sensor?

walky_talky20
10-26-2015, 07:14 PM
I'm not familiar with what kind of settings you have there, but it seems like something in the software is funky. Like the timing pull is lower resolution and/or is global (and no longer independent pull per cylinder). I'm imagining a switch in your little Maestro thing where it's all like "enable high resolution, independent knock control" OR "enable simple knock control" and the switch has been flipped. *FLIP*

I'm pretty sure it's not that simple, though.

chris164935
10-26-2015, 10:00 PM
The camshaft position sensor is used to determine the engine's position in the firing order. I would say it has a lot to do with timing. However, I don't think it is absolutely necessary, you're not going to get as advanced of engine timing control if it isn't working properly. The crankshaft position sensor has no way of knowing if cylinder 1 is on the combustion stroke or the exhaust stroke... All it tells the ECU is when the crankshaft has made 1 complete revolution (360 degrees).

I'd say start with fixing the DTC for camshaft position sensor short to ground.

Spectre1130
10-27-2015, 12:33 AM
The camshaft position sensor is used to determine the engine's position in the firing order. I would say it has a lot to do with timing. However, I don't think it is absolutely necessary, you're not going to get as advanced of engine timing control if it isn't working properly. The crankshaft position sensor has no way of knowing if cylinder 1 is on the combustion stroke or the exhaust stroke... All it tells the ECU is when the crankshaft has made 1 complete revolution (360 degrees).

I'd say start with fixing the DTC for camshaft position sensor short to ground.

The camshaft position sensor should not affect the timing degrees. If you were to unplug it you would run in wasted spark and it would fire your spark plug for every upstroke, instead of just for the combustion cycle. But I would fix it anyways.

walky_talky20
10-27-2015, 05:37 AM
I have no idea how I missed the part about the camshaft sensor fault. I think that could absolutely cause lower resolution and less specific knock control. The ECU can't hardly retard timing for a specific cylinder, if it can't even be sure which one is firing at a given moment.

This is really interesting data. I have half a mind to unplug my cam sensor and log timing retard. My suspicion is that the behavior may be different for ME7 vs ME3.5.

vrmm
10-30-2015, 07:59 PM
So I clipped my cps wiring at the plug and put new wire up to the firewall. Now I have P1338/17746. Camshaft position sensor open or short to plus. I'm assuming from googling that is battery 'plus'...
I have yet to find someone who figured it out. Just unanswered threads dealing with cam timing being off. I checked about 68 times prior to putting it together and have done it in the past about 58,000 times before, so I am damn sure that has nothing to do with it.

I suppose that's not much to go on, but does anyone have some input? It's still 0 or 6.

Only interesting thread i've found. Essentially meaning both sensors I have are bad. Which I don't think is likely unless something zapped them. They're from two different engines.
http://www.passatworld.com/forums/b5-garage/394218-camshaft-position-sensor-testing.html

I also have the occasional 02 sensor bank 2 no activity when it is definitely hooked up. I've tried two other 02's with no change.
I know my engine/harness ground is fantastic. At what point should I consider my ecu toast? If it is, what can I do given that I have masetro..?

Dan[FN]6262
10-30-2015, 08:11 PM
FYI, I didn't read your link.

Zero hardware changes? The only thing you did was change the wiring? Were you getting a code before you swapped the wiring?

redline380
10-30-2015, 08:12 PM
Just to rule it out, you do have the correct cam trigger wheel in there, right? If you are me3/5, it should only have one window in it.

vrmm
10-30-2015, 08:13 PM
I have swapped sensors and have also changed tunes. I only changed wiring and I had a different code before 'camshaft position sensor short to ground'.

vrmm
10-30-2015, 08:17 PM
Hmmmmmmmmm so I haven't thought anything of it, but after putting my je pistons in and new head I chose to use my old exhaust cam. The 'new' one that was in the head I bought was a revision 'h' with a sprocket blue in colour. I used my old 'f' that is brown from my last head(both aeb). Is that what you mean for a cam trigger wheel? What the chain runs on....? Or does it have nothing to do with the sprocket and just the front of the cam where the groove is machined out?

redline380
10-30-2015, 08:18 PM
The trigger wheel is the brass colored ring with slots in it. The hall sensor sends electricity through it, and stuff. Pretty much rocket science. Either way, you need one with only one slot in it.

vrmm
10-30-2015, 08:33 PM
Redline you're AWESOME! I do not have it on :p
In my hurry skurry to get my engine going I must've not thought about it. I bought my head without one on, so I guess it was taken off by them since I didn't touch the intake cam.
I will put one one on and report back.


http://i1240.photobucket.com/albums/gg500/atomicrider4/IMG_20151030_202903_zpsngiklfzl.jpg

redline380
10-30-2015, 08:44 PM
Yeah that piece is awfully important. Make sure you torque it properly

Sent from my Lumia 900 using Tapatalk

vrmm
10-30-2015, 09:20 PM
So I put it on and still got 0 or 6. I didn't clear the code during my run to find out. I thought it would just do it's thing.
I cleared it afterwards and after restarting the last code I stated popped up, so i'm gonna remove my added wires and put the originals back in.

Before it was short to ground. Am I correct in thinking short to ground would produce 0 voltage to the ecu?
Open would be a consistent voltage that had no variation, but the ecu knows it should given that rpms, throttle angle, and timing increases right?
Hypothetically now it has the ability to read a '1 or 0' all should be well?

Is there a camshaft vagcom block? I went from 0-225 and didn't see one, but have read that it exists...

vrmm
10-30-2015, 10:10 PM
I think I may actually have a wiring/bad sensor issue.
Ignition on not running wire #1 has 4.98 volts, #2 which is ground has 0, #3 has 12
Ignition on and running wire #1 has 0 volts, #2 0 volts, #3 has 12.
From what I gather #1 should be 5 volts and #3 should be 1-5 not 12volts.

vrmm
10-31-2015, 09:24 AM
Anyone have an ecu wiring diagram with G40 included?
I think I may have found one with g40, but it makes no reference to actual pin numbers on the ecu.

redline380
10-31-2015, 09:37 AM
If it went from short to run TO short to plus after you added your wires, I would imagine it was a wiring issue.

chris164935
10-31-2015, 09:37 AM
If your car is an AEB harness/ECU, then the pin out is pin 1 on the sensor is the 5v + and it goes to pin 11 of the ECU. Pin 2 is the signal and it goes to pin 76. Pin 3 is the 5v - (ground) and it goes to a ground connection within the wiring harness (ground connection 139) and then that connection goes to pin 67.

redline380
10-31-2015, 09:53 AM
If your car is an AEB harness/ECU, then the pin out is pin 1 on the sensor is the 5v + and it goes to pin 11 of the ECU. Pin 2 is the signal and it goes to pin 76. Pin 3 is the 5v - (ground) and it goes to a ground connection within the wiring harness (ground connection 139) and then that connection goes to pin 67.

If you knew that without looking it up, you should win 10 interwebz pointz for the dayz.

Random thought- We should start a B5 college. You could be Professor Wire harness, and I'll be Professor Stainless Pinch Bolt. Walky could be Provost. The research department would be awesome.

chris164935
10-31-2015, 11:09 AM
I wish I knew that off the top of my head. Lol. I've just become super proficient with reading wiring diagrams in my Bentley manual.

vrmm
10-31-2015, 11:11 AM
Well.... I don't know what the eff is going on. I got cylinder specific timing pull after grounding the sensor to the cylinder head. The ground wire has 12 volts in it.
Prior to all these issues i'd get equal pull on all 4 and I don't recall ever seeing a positive number.


Here they're together there 4 fields with 3.7, 2.2, and 1.5 are timing pull and to the right is timing correction.
http://i1240.photobucket.com/albums/gg500/atomicrider4/Screen%20shot%202015-10-31%20at%203.37.31%20PM_zpskijpghkl.png

vrmm
10-31-2015, 12:58 PM
So I tested power at the ecu. Pin #1 that is power according to my sensor has 5v's which is within bently spec. #2 which is signal according to the sensor is either 11.5 or 12.5. My ecu is pushing that power to the senor. It's 12.5 when I manually ground the wire and skip the provided ground wire. Neither change voltage when the engine is revved.

Like I said between posts 1&3, it's 5v's with manual ground wire, and 11.5 with the one provided.
I really don't know how to interpret that...
http://i1240.photobucket.com/albums/gg500/atomicrider4/Screen%20shot%202015-10-31%20at%2011.31.05%20AM_zpsqbwrvfpu.png

vrmm
10-31-2015, 01:27 PM
I found this from a year ago. Either I had a problem then too or such crazy timing correction is fine. My knock controlled timing correction is good currently.
Anyone else get that high of numbers? I think it's when I let off the throttle.



http://i1240.photobucket.com/albums/gg500/atomicrider4/Screen%20shot%202015-10-31%20at%201.20.49%20PM_zpsfitkqlid.png

vrmm
11-01-2015, 06:19 PM
No timing correction log input???????????? (Not cylinder specific)

I feel like cylinder specific is from knock and overall is just the engine/ecu doing it's thang. Maybe my timing map is a little behind what it want's but it should be fine since it is off throttle?
At no point do I have 29 degrees, but I do have 24 and there are the negative numbers too, so maybe it's that.

walky_talky20
11-02-2015, 05:44 AM
Random thought- We should start a B5 college. You could be Professor Wire harness, and I'll be Professor Stainless Pinch Bolt. Walky could be Provost. The research department would be awesome.

This is too funny. I think Advanced Lowering Techniques by NeedingAnAudi would be a good class.
And I'm quite flattered to be considered for such a position, thanks.