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View Full Version : APR Tune - Stage 1...for what it's worth...



n4matx
10-02-2015, 03:32 PM
Just got my RS5 back from getting flashed and very happy so far. I spent hours on this forum and others doing the research and there are obviously mixed reviews, to say the least. The gain in HP and torque weren't what I was after although I swear I can tell the difference already, especially around 3000rpm. The hesitation in acceleration and choppy shifting with aggressive driving were my issues - and before you frickin' motor-heads (meant affectionately) give me crap about me butchering the terminology and lingo...you get my point. When I had it in for the 5K work, the Dealer told me that was to be expected from that motor. Whatever.

Bottom-line for me was that the price was right (on sale!!) and Mike at BAR Tuning here in Houston took the time and explained the pros and cons - good guy and great shop. Shout out to David N (local H-Town boy) for the shop recommendation. If you're not familiar with the setup, you use the cruise control stalk to set/change between programs and features. But I don't see making many changes so once it's set, you're good.

My two cents! I guess it's a matter of time before I start looking at Stage 2...just don't tell my wife!
Later.

PS...suppose I need to add "APR" to my signature line now too!

Jimmy ny
10-02-2015, 04:40 PM
Really. So in S mode, the car shifts smoother. I hate the rough downshifts. Does it clean this up? Any other impressions?


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jkownz
10-02-2015, 06:43 PM
wish i could take a ride in ur car to actually feel any differences. Almost all owners complain about the rough downshifts and some slop in certain rpm ranges.

n4matx
10-03-2015, 06:39 AM
wish i could take a ride in ur car to actually feel any differences. Almost all owners complain about the rough downshifts and some slop in certain rpm ranges.
Yep - gone. The Dealers Service Manager telling me that was to be expected just blew my mind...

n4matx
10-03-2015, 06:50 AM
Really. So in S mode, the car shifts smoother. I hate the rough downshifts. Does it clean this up? Any other impressions?


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Yep - I am in S mode mostly (back to D when cruising on the freeway...maybe!) and it is remarkable how the downshifts (and up) are clean. The hesitation off the line and at higher rpm's is gone as well. As I mentioned, I only have about 90 minutes since the flash, but most of that is street/traffic driving with multiple down/up shifts on the way. My other main impression - but not sure how to verbalize it - is the cleaner acceleration at higher rpm's. At around 60 mph/3500rpm - got on it and smooth as silk going to 110mph much quicker than before the flash. I'll update after some more "research" today!

Jimmy ny
10-03-2015, 07:23 AM
Please update


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Jimmy ny
10-04-2015, 11:26 AM
Your not scared of TD1? That's the only thing holding me back. You can flash back to stock i guess. I'm just worried something major happens. Then I have to have tuner flash to stick for me then tow to dealer.


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Johnhanson
10-05-2015, 10:38 AM
Your not scared of TD1? That's the only thing holding me back. You can flash back to stock i guess. I'm just worried something major happens. Then I have to have tuner flash to stick for me then tow to dealer.


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I think TD1 will still occur even if reflashed back to stock.

Also I've heard (from S5, not RS5 owners) that even just a stock reflash will reprogram the engine/trans and make it feel more responsive...etc. I'm not trying to be a dick, I just am skeptical that APR can extract more performance out of this drivetrain than Audi - especially given some of their recent "issues"....not that VW has a much better reputation these days. I really am interested to hear more feedback over a few more miles in the car. I seldom use S mode - 95% M mode - my main question would be to see if it speeds up shifts/reduces the delay between shift request and actual shift.

Jimmy ny
10-05-2015, 10:58 AM
I heard no. Only if tuner flashes you back to stock. Not putting the car say back to stock with switching program they can provide by using the turn signal control.


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doug97gxe
10-05-2015, 12:12 PM
I think TD1 will still occur even if reflashed back to stock.

Also I've heard (from S5, not RS5 owners) that even just a stock reflash will reprogram the engine/trans and make it feel more responsive...etc. I'm not trying to be a dick, I just am skeptical that APR can extract more performance out of this drivetrain than Audi - especially given some of their recent "issues"....not that VW has a much better reputation these days. I really am interested to hear more feedback over a few more miles in the car. I seldom use S mode - 95% M mode - my main question would be to see if it speeds up shifts/reduces the delay between shift request and actual shift.

I flashed back to stock for 15k .. no TD1

n4matx
10-06-2015, 04:51 PM
I flashed back to stock for 15k .. no TD1

I did a bunch of reading/research and short answer is no - I'm not concerned with the TD1 "tagging". I also spoke to a couple long term audi service guys about the TD1 and they confirmed the pros/cons and I went with the flash. And the quick update here is that I am HUGELY glad I did.

As I mentioned I spend most of my time in S Mode and immediately noticed the smoother shifting and lack of hesitation in acceleration. Since the flash I have burned thru 3/4 tank of gas and for those that are curious - mpg went up by six (6). Percentage wise that is huge. I also spent more time than I normally do in M Mode and pushing it a little harder than usual for me - again, the shifting up/down are 1000% smoother along with the overall acceleration path.

If you're in Houston (I'm in the Clear Lake area) and want to check it out - let me know. Beers are on David N!
Later.

dylanjh
10-06-2015, 05:05 PM
Your MPG went up by 6 MPG? From what to what?

Jimmy ny
10-07-2015, 04:48 AM
I might consider in the future. But you spoke to your dealer and they said it's ok? If they scan your car, your drivetrain warranty is void. Maybe the dealer doesn't even understand. My dealer told me flat out. Must reflash to stock. Otherwise it's out of there control and your screwed.


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n4matx
10-07-2015, 10:20 PM
Your MPG went up by 6 MPG? From what to what?

12.4mpg prior to flash -- 18.2mpg post flash (I rounded up to 6). I have the APR programmed to "93 octane" and was in Dynamic 90% of the time. I am going to run in Comfort (if I can) and see what it comes back with.

For the accounting geeks out there - if my math is correct, that's a savings of $1542 at 20,000 with a gas price of $3/gal. My wife said "...well it's a good thing you got that stage 1 tune dealio thingy...".
Life is Good!

dylanjh
10-08-2015, 08:40 AM
12.4mpg prior to flash -- 18.2mpg post flash (I rounded up to 6). I have the APR programmed to "93 octane" and was in Dynamic 90% of the time. I am going to run in Comfort (if I can) and see what it comes back with.

For the accounting geeks out there - if my math is correct, that's a savings of $1542 at 20,000 with a gas price of $3/gal. My wife said "...well it's a good thing you got that stage 1 tune dealio thingy...".
Life is Good!

With those numbers the tune pays for itself.

JamesRS5
10-08-2015, 12:30 PM
It's a 2 minute job to adjust the fuel correction factor to make it look like you're getting better mpg. Monitor how much you get from a full tank and see if that reflects a better mpg.

http://www.audiworld.com/forums/a6-c7-platform-discussion-194/adjusting-fuel-consumption-vag-com-2857893/

I'm not saying they do this as part of an ECU flash but the figures may have got corrupted somewhere.

n4matx
10-08-2015, 12:52 PM
It's a 2 minute job to adjust the fuel correction factor to make it look like you're getting better mpg. Monitor how much you get from a full tank and see if that reflects a better mpg.

http://www.audiworld.com/forums/a6-c7-platform-discussion-194/adjusting-fuel-consumption-vag-com-2857893/

I'm not saying they do this as part of an ECU flash but the figures may have got corrupted somewhere.

My numbers/calculations were done old school - I drove this many miles and added that much gas to fill. The display of mpg is fairly close, but I wanted "real data" -- for my own curiosity more than anything. I will slap on the vag-com cable and adjust as that thread suggests maybe this week.

dylanjh
10-08-2015, 01:08 PM
I'm just amazed you're baseline was 12.4 MPG. That's less range than the low-end Tesla I believe. Fuelly shows a range of 16-18 http://www.fuelly.com/car/audi/rs5.

I guess I'm not driving hard enough b/c I average 18-19mpg commuting. Something tells me the tune won't boost me from 18 to 24mpg :)

n4matx
10-08-2015, 01:15 PM
I'm just amazed you're baseline was 12.4 MPG. That's less range than the low-end Tesla I believe. Fuelly shows a range of 16-18 http://www.fuelly.com/car/audi/rs5.

I guess I'm not driving hard enough b/c I average 18-19mpg commuting. Something tells me the tune won't boost me from 18 to 24mpg :)

This wasn't commuting - I am driving the shit out of my girl over here. S-Mode/Dynamic and running it up to 5-7000rpm routinely off the line. I don't do that all the time, but I was pushing it a little and messing around with the new tune. Totally amazed at how it smoothed out the shifting - up and down. The display showed 17.4mpg prior to this fun, but as pointed out that could be off as well.

I am running a new tank of 93 and not busting it off like I was - I want to see what the mpg is like in D-Mode/Comfort too. I'll let you know...

Jimmy ny
10-08-2015, 04:32 PM
It could make sense for mpg. The tune is probably leaning out the a/f mixture on normal driving. Any fattening it up under wot.


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doug97gxe
10-09-2015, 06:41 AM
that gas gauge avg and the driving style before and after tune is a bad calculation to see if your gas mileage got better.. the only true test would be a long trip with a full tank averaging 60 mph before and after..

because you said you went from 12 to 18 but your 12 was driving hard to your gf's house.. your 18 could be the same type of driving but different factors could change alot

n4matx
10-09-2015, 07:22 AM
that gas gauge avg and the driving style before and after tune is a bad calculation to see if your gas mileage got better.. the only true test would be a long trip with a full tank averaging 60 mph before and after..

because you said you went from 12 to 18 but your 12 was driving hard to your gf's house.. your 18 could be the same type of driving but different factors could change alot


No $h!t. I totally agree. I am merely sharing some of my initial findings/impressions. Someone asked about the mpg's so I replied - my interest and the reason I flashed my RS5 was around the acceleration/shifting choppiness. Not sure anyone buys a RS5 for good gas mileage. Also not sure where the "gf's house" reference came from - the "...my girl..." would be the car. Her name is Stella...just sayin'!

doug97gxe
10-09-2015, 07:24 AM
Also not sure where the "gf's house" reference came from - the "...my girl..." would be the car. Her name is Stella...just sayin'!

I'm reading to fast and my brain is compensating


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n4matx
10-09-2015, 07:43 AM
I'm reading to fast and my brain is compensating


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I only added that in case my wife is stalking me online [:D]
Later.

midam96
10-09-2015, 01:09 PM
Glad u r enjoying the ecu changes. I agree the re-mapping for 93 octane, improved shift program not to mention allowing for 189 mph prior to shut off. Did u change exhaust at all? I chose a different route bought another ecu and had a German firm re-program it. They put a "stage 2" flash been driving that and milltek exhaust for 23,000 miles totally loving every minute. I have aldone the Aleu kreuz stiffener that was also noticeable improvement.
The Td1 would ring a bit hollow now with VW admitting it had it's on issues. I never thought TD1 was a problem. Be kinda hard for Audi dealer to install something then run from warranty. I have changed most every car I have ever owned 30+ never had ANY Issue as to warranty claims. Ok so mayb when I put the 454 into the Skoda.





_7000178324287325353.jpg to do.

midam96
10-09-2015, 01:19 PM
Forgot mileage on my car really didn't change. I have convinced myself the exhaust added about 6% and mapping to 93 oct. Added 5% shift points improved response at a little lower rpm levels. Very happy with changed behavior of car only downside I have noticed was if u can't get 93 oct. U absolutely feel the difference.

midam96
10-09-2015, 01:21 PM
6%, 5% hp gains, torque overall was to increase about 25 lbs.

DSC447
10-10-2015, 06:29 PM
I might consider in the future. But you spoke to your dealer and they said it's ok? If they scan your car, your drivetrain warranty is void. Maybe the dealer doesn't even understand. My dealer told me flat out. Must reflash to stock. Otherwise it's out of there control and your screwed.


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I ran into warranty issues on my TTRS with a stage 2 setup. Syncros on my transmission went bad. I had everything turned back to stock before taking the car to the stealership. Dealer contacted Audi HQ, and HQ instructed the dealer to see if the ECU had been touched. When dealer instructed that it had been, HQ instructed the dealer to deny warranty. I got the RS5 so that I wouldn't be as tempted to modify this time around. In APR's defense, they do warn about possible warranty issues. I do agree with the comments that the transmission lacks smoothness and speed. The PDK on my Porsche is light years ahead. Have fun with the stage 1 set up. Would love to see how well it works.

tofast2belast
10-19-2015, 02:06 PM
i can confirm the mpg increase. granted this was done on my old b6 and a5(1.8t and 2.0t respectively) on the 1.8t I had quite a gain on that in terms of fuel economy(ive hit 600 MPT) both the a5 and the b6 a4 had apr stage 2+.

doug97gxe
10-21-2015, 01:08 PM
i can confirm the mpg increase. granted this was done on my old b6 and a5(1.8t and 2.0t respectively) on the 1.8t I had quite a gain on that in terms of fuel economy(ive hit 600 MPT) both the a5 and the b6 a4 had apr stage 2+.

turbo tunes respond differently than NA Motors

Optiondoc
10-22-2015, 08:14 PM
This tune with an intake and exhaust might give that extra pep I've been craving from
The RS5. Are you planning on adding any additional mods to the car ?


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Leavinu
12-02-2015, 02:17 PM
Was your tune a generic APR performance flash or dyno-tune of your actually car?

n4matx
12-02-2015, 02:25 PM
Was your tune a generic APR performance flash or dyno-tune of your actually car?

Mine was a dyno on my RS5. They didn't charge any extra to do the work.

Jimmy ny
12-02-2015, 03:22 PM
I never heard of a APR dyno tune. For as I know they are generic tunes for your model and ecu #


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n4matx
12-02-2015, 03:36 PM
I never heard of a APR dyno tune. For as I know they are generic tunes for your model and ecu #


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That's how it was described - I know they did the "generic flash" and it was customized via dyno before I made the setting changes on my steering wheel stalk.

Maybe that's why it didn't cost extra!

Jimmy ny
12-02-2015, 04:41 PM
Honestly they have no way of customizing yet. Program switching on the stalk yes. But that's only good if you are going to run 100 octane fuel for a day and optimize the car for it with the ECU.


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Optiondoc
12-02-2015, 06:10 PM
Jimmy you flash your car yet? Curious as to how much you notice with the I/E and how you deal with the dealers


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Jimmy ny
12-02-2015, 08:48 PM
Jimmy you flash your car yet? Curious as to how much you notice with the I/E and how you deal with the dealers


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Not yet. Probably in spring. If a major issue with car, go back to tuner and flash it back to stock. The RS5 uses a older ECU. You should be able to flash to stock and not have any issues. For what I understand you notice better drivability with the flash, not really the peak 9 hp.


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Leavinu
12-02-2015, 10:46 PM
Not yet. Probably in spring. If a major issue with car, go back to tuner and flash it back to stock. The RS5 uses a older ECU. You should be able to flash to stock and not have any issues. For what I understand you notice better drivability with the flash, not really the peak 9 hp.


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One thing many LS-equipped vehicles experience especially in the mpg arena as the factory GM tune is always pig rich. Maybe I'll reach out to APR and find out more on just what their tune/flash entails and how it differs from the stock tune.

Optiondoc
12-03-2015, 06:30 AM
Wait, there's no flash counter on the RS5 ECU?


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Jimmy ny
12-03-2015, 07:08 AM
There might be but APR on this ECU is able to flash the car back to stock exactly the way it was. This ECU is old and dates back to original 2008 S5 4.2. There is no separate ECU for transmission either. APR flash is adjusting shift points as well. That's where the car is really getting its 2/10's from in 1/4 mile.


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jkownz
12-03-2015, 07:20 AM
This is very interesting information. ....

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Jimmy ny
12-03-2015, 07:26 AM
Maybe Arin from APR can chime in offer more information about it.


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Optiondoc
12-03-2015, 07:30 AM
I was under the impression that even switching to the stock map, the dealer is able to see via the counter that it has been flashed.


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Jimmy ny
12-03-2015, 07:41 AM
APR told me they never heard of a car being flagged when fully flashing back to stock.


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jkownz
12-03-2015, 08:31 AM
Back when I had my A4, was flashed back to stock and flagged. From what I understand is once the ecu is modified, even swapping back to stock the dealer can still determine that the system was once tampered with and issues a flag. Goes to AoA and game over. They even made me sign a paper stating the TD1 and acknowledge that I know my warranty is voided for what is associated with the tampering. But maybe that had changed I don't know. If what you say is true and no way to determine tampering I will flash my RS real soon lol. Hopefully APR can comment on it.

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Jimmy ny
12-03-2015, 10:13 AM
Post up a picture of your Gruppe m intake jkownz. I'm curious to see it.


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jkownz
12-03-2015, 10:22 AM
Post up a picture of your Gruppe m intake jkownz. I'm curious to see it.


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Just click my user name and go in build thread to much work to post.

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Jimmy ny
12-03-2015, 10:31 AM
Very nice build. I like the Gruppe M. It looks very nice.


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jkownz
12-03-2015, 10:34 AM
Very nice build. I like the Gruppe M. It looks very nice.


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For sure is nice. Going to keep the radiator carbon fiber shroud and put this new intake on. Gruppe m will be wall art. Trying to get some good dyno shop to do a Gruppe m vs his new one.

Jimmy ny
12-03-2015, 10:52 AM
Oh, your gonna be a ECS guy?


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jkownz
12-03-2015, 11:28 AM
Oh, your gonna be a ECS guy?


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Nope the arch nemesis one eventuri

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doug97gxe
12-03-2015, 11:59 AM
Back when I had my A4, was flashed back to stock and flagged. From what I understand is once the ecu is modified, even swapping back to stock the dealer can still determine that the system was once tampered with and issues a flag. Goes to AoA and game over. They even made me sign a paper stating the TD1 and acknowledge that I know my warranty is voided for what is associated with the tampering. But maybe that had changed I don't know. If what you say is true and no way to determine tampering I will flash my RS real soon lol. Hopefully APR can comment on it.

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that may have been then.. currently no one who has flashed back to stock has been tagged TD1 ... myself included


edit: let me say no one who has flashed back to stock with an S4/S5*

Jimmy ny
12-03-2015, 12:08 PM
that may have been then.. currently no one who has flashed back to stock has been tagged TD1 ... myself included


edit: let me say no one who has flashed back to stock with an S4/S5*

That had been my understanding as well.


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Optiondoc
12-03-2015, 01:15 PM
that may have been then.. currently no one who has flashed back to stock has been tagged TD1 ... myself included


edit: let me say no one who has flashed back to stock with an S4/S5*

Doug, you're alive? Fell off the face of the planet bruh. How are things?


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doug97gxe
12-03-2015, 01:16 PM
Doug, you're alive? Fell off the face of the planet bruh. How are things?


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I'm good.. just watching my step around the AZ Land

jkownz
12-03-2015, 01:22 PM
That's really good news. Makes my mind more at ease if indo decide to flash. I don't care for the much hp gain, rather the smoother shifting.

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Optiondoc
12-03-2015, 01:31 PM
That's really good news. Makes my mind more at ease if indo decide to flash. I don't care for the much hp gain, rather the smoother shifting.

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+1. Although the jerky trans doesn't bother me but wouldn't mind having a more aggressive shift point.


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Optiondoc
12-03-2015, 01:32 PM
I'm good.. just watching my step around the AZ Land

Watching for land mines? I didn't know fat chicks were on AZ


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Powderhound
12-03-2015, 05:51 PM
that may have been then.. currently no one who has flashed back to stock has been tagged TD1 ... myself included

edit: let me say no one who has flashed back to stock with an S4/S5*

Buddy with a 2012 s4, APR stage 2 with pulley, flashed back to stock and had clutch done at dealer. They asked him if he knew his ecu had been reflashed at any time and he said he had no idea what they were referring to. His impression was that they can see there was a reset in the history but can not tell what was done specifically. And no dreaded TD1 as far as he knows.

doug97gxe
12-03-2015, 07:19 PM
Buddy with a 2012 s4, APR stage 2 with pulley, flashed back to stock and had clutch done at dealer. They asked him if he knew his ecu had been reflashed at any time and he said he had no idea what they were referring to. His impression was that they can see there was a reset in the history but can not tell what was done specifically. And no dreaded TD1 as far as he knows.

I think they were trying to bait him because APR is actually the only tuner that resets the flash counter to what it was ... My guess is that dealer assumed he is tuned based on the clutch wearing out quicker than normal and tried to sucker him into saying he was tuned


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JimmyBones
12-03-2015, 07:52 PM
There might be but APR on this ECU is able to flash the car back to stock exactly the way it was. This ECU is old and dates back to original 2008 S5 4.2. There is no separate ECU for transmission either. APR flash is adjusting shift points as well. That's where the car is really getting its 2/10's from in 1/4 mile.


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I disagree with the bold section. The RS5 uses a Siemens ECU and the old 4.2 S5 uses a Bosch ECU. When I scanned my buddy's RS5 there was a separate transmission module. Haven't looked into it but the TCU is probably inside the transmission.

I would like to see a TCU tune for the RS5 because my buddy's RS5 had a noticeable delay in the 2nd to 3rd gear shift. Kind of like what the S-tronic B8 S4 guys talk about. The trans fluid and strainer was changed at 13K miles too so that shouldn't be a reason for the delay.

Jimmy ny
12-04-2015, 04:31 AM
If there was a separate TCU then APR would surely have had a TCU tune like in the other platforms.


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doug97gxe
12-04-2015, 04:59 AM
If there was a separate TCU then APR would surely have had a TCU tune like in the other platforms.


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not entirely true.. it comes down to supply and demand .. the APR B8 S4/5 ECU Tune has been around for a good number of years.. the TCU Tune just got released this year and they are still ironing out the kinks .. they won't put an engineer on a project diverting his/her resources away from other projects if they don't feel enough people will find it beneficial

Jimmy ny
12-04-2015, 05:55 AM
It's the same transmission. Only difference is the metal internals verses the plastic on s4 and s5


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doug97gxe
12-04-2015, 06:19 AM
my point was the S4/S5 TCU tune came 4 years or so after the ECU Tune.. so just because there is no TCU tune for the RS5 doesn't mean it isn't two separate modules

Jimmy ny
12-04-2015, 07:27 AM
You may be right.


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Sgibb16
12-04-2015, 09:19 AM
I think they were trying to bait him because APR is actually the only tuner that resets the flash counter to what it was ... My guess is that dealer assumed he is tuned based on the clutch wearing out quicker than normal and tried to sucker him into saying he was tuned


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Has there been an proof there is an actual flash counter? I've only heard rumors and stories, no hard evidence.

doug97gxe
12-04-2015, 10:27 AM
Has there been an proof there is an actual flash counter? I've only heard rumors and stories, no hard evidence.

according to sean they do http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/645307-You-one-stop-shop-for-TD1-info-Straight-from-AoA!?p=10641947&viewfull=1#post10641947

Jimmy ny
12-04-2015, 10:41 AM
Well. Then this means flash back to stock original program they took out you should be ok. A N/A motor like ours should not be stressed at all by this tune.


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Powderhound
12-04-2015, 04:58 PM
I think they were trying to bait him because APR is actually the only tuner that resets the flash counter to what it was ... My guess is that dealer assumed he is tuned based on the clutch wearing out quicker than normal and tried to sucker him into saying he was tuned

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That makes sense, he didn't go for the bait, end of story and dealer dropped the conversation.

maazaziz53
12-15-2015, 10:06 PM
I bought my rs5 couple of months ago looking to get more power out of it what tuning should I look into also if any of you live in dfw area lmk.


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maazaziz53
12-15-2015, 10:07 PM
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/12/15/88f3a434976980ed241a61ccc8546e9d.jpg


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jkownz
12-16-2015, 05:31 AM
There isn't any mods to increase power. You can spend around 6k from about maybe 12 hp. Tune gives like 3 hp. Not worth it. Most get mods here to listen to that NA high Rev V8. Only true mod is pes SC that's around 20k. And is not a reliable system based on previous track record.

PedroRS5
12-16-2015, 07:34 AM
In my neck of the woods, there's no smog testing. After my warranty period I am thinking about deleting the catalytic converters w kline headers, getting a better air intake and then the APR tune.

jkownz
12-16-2015, 09:47 AM
In my neck of the woods, there's no smog testing. After my warranty period I am thinking about deleting the catalytic converters w kline headers, getting a better air intake and then the APR tune.
Going to spend 9k + labor on headers and a tune with not a single dyno for any known performance gains?. I never found any evidence besides them throwing in your face it's inconel and the harmonics lol. 4k for a full exhaust I can take. But another 9k just for headers lol no way.

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maazaziz53
12-16-2015, 10:32 AM
Damn so there not much I can do to this car lol


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doug97gxe
12-16-2015, 11:18 AM
In my neck of the woods, there's no smog testing. After my warranty period I am thinking about deleting the catalytic converters w kline headers, getting a better air intake and then the APR tune.


Going to spend 9k + labor on headers and a tune with not a single dyno for any known performance gains?. I never found any evidence besides them throwing in your face it's inconel and the harmonics lol. 4k for a full exhaust I can take. But another 9k just for headers lol no way.

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as he said.. removing cats and adding headers on a NA car is pretty much pointless .. most of those gains are seen on a turbo car or unless the NA car is very very restrictive from the factory.. which i don't see in this case

JimmyBones
12-16-2015, 11:52 AM
as he said.. removing cats and adding headers on a NA car is pretty much pointless .. most of those gains are seen on a turbo car or unless the NA car is very very restrictive from the factory.. which i don't see in this case

The RS5 comes with shorty headers from the factory just like how the old B7 RS4 came with Tri-Y headers from the factory. Currently the RS5 owners need to be patient until JHM gets their hands on a RS5 because they took over the B7 RS4 market from the crappy mods that were available the first couple of years that the RS4 out there.

By the way, the RS4s did benefit a lot from going catless with a 2.75" exhaust. The RS5 makes thirty more horsepower than the old RS4s and it needs a similar mod path to see real gains. Catless + 2.75" downpipes/catback, a real ECU tune from JHM, lightweight parts (wheels, brake rotors, crank pulley) and then the RS5s should be a high 11 second car easily! A S-tronic / TCU tune would make it even better still.

doug97gxe
12-16-2015, 12:04 PM
The RS5 comes with shorty headers from the factory just like how the old B7 RS4 came with Tri-Y headers from the factory. Currently the RS5 owners need to be patient until JHM gets their hands on a RS5 because they took over the B7 RS4 market from the crappy mods that were available the first couple of years that the RS4 out there.

By the way, the RS4s did benefit a lot from going catless with a 2.75" exhaust. The RS5 makes thirty more horsepower than the old RS4s and it needs a similar mod path to see real gains. Catless + 2.75" downpipes/catback, a real ECU tune from JHM, lightweight parts (wheels, brake rotors, crank pulley) and then the RS5s should be a high 11 second car easily! A S-tronic / TCU tune would make it even better still.

You're talking about too totally different engines only thing they share is displacement


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JimmyBones
12-16-2015, 12:43 PM
You're talking about too totally different engines only thing they share is displacement


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I know that they are totally different engines but the RS5 4.2 is a much better version of the RS4 engine. Audi has always been a progressive company that tries to improve things as they move forward. For example, Audi claimed that they made the RS5 engine from what they learned from their developments with the V10 engines. Now the modification path for the RS5 in my opinion should be similar to the old RS4. That last sentence really isn't rocket science to understand.

doug97gxe
12-16-2015, 12:44 PM
I know that they are totally different engines but the RS5 4.2 is a much better version of the RS4 engine. Audi has always been a progressive company that tries to improve things as they move forward. For example, Audi claimed that they made the RS5 engine from what they learned from their developments with the V10 engines. Now the modification path for the RS5 in my opinion should be similar to the old RS4. That last sentence really isn't rocket science to understand.

greater improved engine could also mean less restrictive

JimmyBones
12-16-2015, 01:06 PM
greater improved engine could also mean less restrictive

The glass is half empty for you, I see.

Quattro always leaves more power on the table to meet the noise and emissions requirements. It just takes companies (obiviously not APR) that actually have a clue what they are doing to extract it.

doug97gxe
12-16-2015, 01:08 PM
The glass is half empty for you, I see.

Quattro always leaves more power on the table to meet the noise and emissions requirements. It just takes companies (obiviously not APR) that actually have a clue what they are doing to extract it.

i'm just going off past NA cars see.. and i could totally wrong.. i'm fine with that.. but time will tell right?

JimmyBones
12-16-2015, 01:30 PM
i'm just going off past NA cars see.. and i could totally wrong.. i'm fine with that.. but time will tell right?

It seems like a common theme with Audis (both NA and FI) that companies rush crappy mods out ASAP. Then after a few years the companies that actually have a clue then come out with mods that actually perform. The B7 RS4s and B8 S4s are both good examples of that. Now that both of those platforms are older then they have gotten really interesting because of the fantastic gains. I can't wait to see the real potential of the 4.0TT cars like the C7 S6 and RS7 in a few years.

doug97gxe
12-16-2015, 01:32 PM
It seems like a common theme with Audis (both NA and FI) that companies rush crappy mods out ASAP. Then after a few years the companies that actually have a clue then come out with mods that actually perform. The B7 RS4s and B8 S4s are both good examples of that. Now that both of those platforms are older then they have gotten really interesting because of the fantastic gains. I can't wait to see the real potential of the 4.0TT cars like the C7 S6 and RS7 in a few years.

yeah but the B7 RS4 is NA and the B8 S4 and 4.0TT cars are Forced Induction .. dollar for dollar the B7 RS4 and B8 RS5 will never compete per dollar

JimmyBones
12-16-2015, 01:41 PM
yeah but the B7 RS4 is NA and the B8 S4 and 4.0TT cars are Forced Induction .. dollar for dollar the B7 RS4 and B8 RS5 will never compete per dollar

Later on when I get to use my laptop instead of my phone then I can do a quick comparison. Also a lot of people don't remember that most of the fast B8 S4 times are on race gas as the RS4 times are on pump gas. If you compare on those two cars on an even field then I wouldn't be so sure that it is that big of a difference.

doug97gxe
12-16-2015, 01:44 PM
Later on when I get to use my laptop instead of my phone then I can do a quick comparison. Also a lot of people don't remember that most of the fast B8 S4 times are on race gas as the RS4 times are on pump gas. If you compare on those two cars on an even field then I wouldn't be so sure that it is that big of a difference.

you're not talking about a Supercharged RS4 are you? you're talking about the fastest NA RS4?

doug97gxe
12-16-2015, 01:47 PM
i see the fastest NA RS4 is 12.3 @ 112.3 and the fastest Stage 2 B8 S4 11.45 @ 119

Optiondoc
12-16-2015, 02:07 PM
Lmao, Doug you're hilarious


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maazaziz53
12-16-2015, 03:35 PM
So conclusion there's nothing I can do to my car lol


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Johnhanson
12-16-2015, 03:51 PM
So conclusion there's nothing I can do to my car lol


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Intake, exhaust, suspension mods. There's plenty you can do. You just can't have 500whp.

If you wanted that you should have gone S5 or M3/4. There's a reason NA V8s are going the way of the Buffalo. Enjoy while it lasts.


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Optiondoc
12-16-2015, 03:56 PM
Yes, enable dynamic mode, shut off traction control, move lever to manual mode and keep the revs above 4K. Enjoy fantastic response, power and an addicting sound. Eventuri intake, capristo exhaust and some
Lighter wheels. Smile from
Ear to ear.

Don't get caught up in S4/5 logic which says: I can save 15k on sticker and then I'll just add

1) An ecu "tune"
2) exhaust; intake
3) solar panels
4) a giant rear fan
5) jet packs
6) remove all interior and replace just driver seat with milk crate
7) replace all body panels with fiberglass panels
8) replace wheels with frisbee wrapped in tyres......

AND THEN IM FASTER THAN AN RS5!!! Forget spending 50k to void any and all warranty because I'm a big baller and I'll just throw the car away and buy a new one.

Truth be told, majority of owners do NOT modify their cars. It's tough to comprehend spending 50-60k on a car and being on the hook for any and all repairs.


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maazaziz53
12-16-2015, 03:59 PM
Lol that's true


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Optiondoc
12-16-2015, 04:05 PM
Shit I forgot to add 1000 octane fuel and 4 electric motors plus an electric turbo. Now no one will mess with me!


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Johnhanson
12-16-2015, 04:17 PM
http://m.ebay.com/itm/261987547729

This is always a decent option as far as dollar per horsepower. If you're not great at diy hopefully you have a good install guy who won't charge too much.


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doug97gxe
12-16-2015, 04:22 PM
don't get sensitive guys my comments weren't RS5 specific.. just my experience with NA and FI motors

Optiondoc
12-16-2015, 04:25 PM
Lol John.

Not sensitive Doug. Just trying to grasp the logic. Let's risk 30k worth of engine and transmission replacement to save 15k? And best of all it's a huge risk just to be the same? Hey, to each their own. @maazaziz53 you've got a terrific car. Learn where the sweet spots are and get comfortable keeping the revs high.


If you want 500whp, go pick up an old STI with high mileage and completely overhaul the engine and transmission. Still cost you less than an S4/5.

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doug97gxe
12-16-2015, 04:29 PM
Lol John.

Not sensitive Doug. Just trying to grasp the logic. Let's risk 30k worth of engine and transmission replacement to save 15k? And best of all it's a huge risk just to be the same? Hey, to each their own. @maazaziz53 you've got a terrific car. Learn where the sweet spots are and get comfortable keeping the revs high.


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i'm not going to entertain RS5 vs S5 debates anymore.. tuned vs OEM .. i think i have enough posts on this forum on how i feel on both aspects..

however .. RS5 .. Maxima... 350z .. RS4 .. 325 ... etc .. Headers and test pipes are worthless as far as NA Mods... a matter of fact headers and test pipes are not worthless on Supercharged Motors as well (S4/S5) .. Headers and test pipes perform excellent on Turbo cars .. or restrictive V8's like how the Vettes used to be

Optiondoc
12-16-2015, 04:30 PM
You're correct, which is why you should buy the car that meets the performance you're looking for STOCK. It's a much better bet in the long run.


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doug97gxe
12-16-2015, 04:33 PM
You're correct, which is why you should buy the car that meets the performance you're looking for STOCK. It's a much better bet in the long run.


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at the end of the day he is going to do what he wants to his car.. stock or not.. i'm meerly trying to prevent him from spending money on things he feels that he might get performance gain and it may not..

Optiondoc
12-16-2015, 04:35 PM
What's up dude, no more CB love?


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Jimmy ny
12-16-2015, 04:43 PM
Intake. Exhaust. Tune. You go from 450 ho to 480 hp. That's it. More responsive and it will sound great. It's still a nice low 12 second car that returns good gas mileage and is AWD. For me that's good enough for now.


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doug97gxe
12-16-2015, 04:46 PM
not my thing

Johnhanson
12-16-2015, 06:03 PM
returns good gas mileage

480 crank hp I might believe....but this ^ let's get serious Jimmy lol


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Jimmy ny
12-16-2015, 06:20 PM
Yes. I avg almost 15 around town. Over 20 usually on highway. For a high horsepower heavy AWD v8. That's great. My m3 got 10 around town and 15 on highway. I'm also talking crank not wheel.


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Johnhanson
12-16-2015, 06:25 PM
Yes. I avg almost 15 around town. Over 20 usually on highway. For a high horsepower heavy AWD v8. That's great. My m3 got 10 around town and 15 on highway. I'm also talking crank not wheel.


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Fair enough. I'm usually 20-22mpg but do get around 25mpg on highway if I actually obey the law - around town I push about 10mpg though. Likely my driving style I suppose.


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Optiondoc
12-16-2015, 06:26 PM
Yea I'm about 20 highway, NYC traffic usually crushes me down to like 8 though [emoji19]


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Jimmy ny
12-16-2015, 06:34 PM
With the intake on now and the sound of capristo, I have to watch it. Now I really always wanna push the car.


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Leavinu
12-16-2015, 07:02 PM
Intake. Exhaust. Tune. You go from 450 ho to 480 hp. That's it. More responsive and it will sound great. It's still a nice low 12 second car that returns good gas mileage and is AWD. For me that's good enough for now.


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Agree! A luxurious low 12-sec car for DD-all season duty is damn impressive in my book.

Jimmy ny
12-16-2015, 07:06 PM
Exactly I have all season tires and survived winter in NY with no problem last year.


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Jimmy ny
12-16-2015, 07:07 PM
Agreed.


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JimmyBones
12-16-2015, 09:40 PM
you're not talking about a Supercharged RS4 are you? you're talking about the fastest NA RS4?

I was referring to pump gas times for a NA RS4 and a B8 S4.

The fastest pump gas RS4 time is Mistro with a 12.21 @ 113.23.
The fastest pump gas B8 S4 time is Primetime with a 11.93 @ 116.99.

That isn't that big of a difference. Mistro is also working on breaking into the 11s still NA.


i see the fastest NA RS4 is 12.3 @ 112.3 and the fastest Stage 2 B8 S4 11.45 @ 119

That is a pump gas RS4 time vs a race gas B8 S4 time. If you want a comparison like that then how about the SCed RS4 that ran a 11.12 @ 125 mph on pump gas vs the same B8 S4 on race gas?

You can bring up the Eurocode stage 3 B8 S4 time of 10.9 @ 124 mph on race gas, slicks, gutted interior, and no exhaust. Then I would counter with the 10.6 @ 130 mph that APR ran with a similar setup RS4 like race gas, slicks, stripped interior, and no exhaust. Or even better still the 10.7 @ 130 that the JHM RS4 ran with a full interior, street tires, and on race gas.

doug97gxe
12-17-2015, 05:10 AM
I was referring to pump gas times for a NA RS4 and a B8 S4.

The fastest pump gas RS4 time is Mistro with a 12.21 @ 113.23.
The fastest pump gas B8 S4 time is Primetime with a 11.93 @ 116.99.

That isn't that big of a difference. Mistro is also working on breaking into the 11s still NA.



That is a pump gas RS4 time vs a race gas B8 S4 time. If you want a comparison like that then how about the SCed RS4 that ran a 11.12 @ 125 mph on pump gas vs the same B8 S4 on race gas?

You can bring up the Eurocode stage 3 B8 S4 time of 10.9 @ 124 mph on race gas, slicks, gutted interior, and no exhaust. Then I would counter with the 10.6 @ 130 mph that APR ran with a similar setup RS4 like race gas, slicks, stripped interior, and no exhaust. Or even better still the 10.7 @ 130 that the JHM RS4 ran with a full interior, street tires, and on race gas.

I would have brought up EC before if i was going to.. That stage 3 platform isn't even 2 months old .. Quoting those numbers would be premature as they haven't even worked out the cool issues 100% plus it's still on the pulley the kit comes with .. It still has potential for more .. Though the RS4 is a better platform for that supercharger because you can't replace displacement .. At the end of the day when u replace the supercharger on a 3.0 it's like adding a supercharger to an NA car u can't beat that v8

I'm curious on that pump gas RS4 run though .. How much improvement is that over stock times?


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Bianco
12-17-2015, 07:24 AM
yeah but the B7 RS4 is NA and the B8 S4 and 4.0TT cars are Forced Induction .. dollar for dollar the B7 RS4 and B8 RS5 will never compete per dollar

both the B7 RS4 and the B8 S4 are similar stock. High 12s-low 13s @ 106-108 mph 1/4 mile runs, 300-320 whp dyno runs.

Put $11,000 into a B7 RS4 and you're at low 11s @ 122-123 mph on 93 octane if this JHM stage 1+ SC thread is accurate

To run low 11s in a B8 on 93 octane you'd need a really big starting ramp because nobody has come close to that yet on pump gas. Best is 11.9 according to Arin's list. So that's a non-starter.

If we let a stage 2 B8 run race gas while the RS4 stays on pump, the B8 still can't match it.
You need tune, sc pulley, overdrive pulley, lw wheels, lw rotors, intake, maybe exhaust and hfc. And to be honest the closest has been 11.45 @ 122 so more mid 11s. This will cost you about $7,000-8,000 so it's definitely cheaper...but still slower.

To go low 11s on a B8 S4, you need stage 3 + cooling + lw wheels + intake + exhaust = $16,000 and even then you need race gas. And the RS4 owner has a $5,000 advantage to pay for 10 carbon cleans.


How about just bolt ons for the RS4 vs. simple stage 2 mods for the B8 S4?

Pump gas, tune/exhaust/lw parts and the B7 RS4 is running 12.2 @ 112-113 (costs about $4500)
Pump gas, tune/pulley/lw rotors/lw wheels/intake and the B8 S4 is 11.9-12.0@114-115 (costs about $4500)

Advantage B8 S4 but it's not really all that different to be honest considering both cars spent the same money. Also considering the B8 times in the 11s are DSG. The fastest manual B8 cars are exactly like the RS4...low 12s.

It's an interesting comparison considering the perception that NA cars don't benefit from modifications. It's just ignorance. Like your post. Now you know though, so there you have it. Start putting a good ECU tune, free flowing 2.75" exhaust and lw parts on that B8 RS5? That thing will be seriously quick. We've seen a basic tune only B8 RS5 go 12.2 already. On pump gas in not great conditions (driven to the track and run immediately in alabama, total of 2 passes modified).

Bianco
12-17-2015, 07:35 AM
i see the fastest NA RS4 is 12.3 @ 112.3 and the fastest Stage 2 B8 S4 11.45 @ 119

12.21 @ 113.5 is the fastest NA RS4 and it was on pump gas

11.9 @ 115 is the fastest B8 S4 on pump gas

Bianco
12-17-2015, 07:43 AM
That stage 3 platform isn't even 2 months old

I'm curious on that pump gas RS4 run though .. How much improvement is that over stock times?


That stage 3 platform is a few years old actually. APR appears to have attempted to bin it because it wasn't performing, and have gone out of their way to distance themselves from it, even removing their name from the intake plenum cover. The hail mary slicks/no interior passes by magnusson dealers to produce a quick ET for show and to blind the uninformed...but they also show that the concerns stage 3 doesn't add much are true when they're adding almost zero trap speed to stage 2 setups. Magnuson appears to have forced it out and APR are just tuning it. So don't hold out hope for that.

RS4s generally run high 12s to low 13s @ 106-108 MPH. So the modifications like tune/exhaust/lw rotors etc add a pretty substantial gain (12.2@ 113.5 vs. 13.0 @ 107 is big big difference)

doug97gxe
12-17-2015, 07:43 AM
12.21 @ 113.5 is the fastest NA RS4 and it was on pump gas

11.9 @ 115 is the fastest B8 S4 on pump gas

11.844@116.27 is the fastest B8 S4 on pump gas

Bianco
12-17-2015, 07:48 AM
11.844@116.27 is the fastest B8 S4 on pump gas

ok, 11.8 vs. 12.2

as I said, advantage B8, but not by much. A good chunk of the ET advantage is DSG based.

What's the fastest B8 S4 MT vs. B7 RS4 MT (The RS4 is only MT)

11.99 @ 116 S4 vs. 12.21 @ 113.5

not huge difference, but again, advantage B8. Hopefully you can see it's a bit ignorant to say the NA Audis don't benefit much from modifications. I've owned a few and I've owned a few forced induction Audis as well. The big guys do pretty well with the turbo and SC cars but they don't do so well with the NA cars because it's unlike anything they're used to. The NA cars need a modification path like an American muscle car. Not like a 1.8T. NA cars don't benefit much from crappy modifications but they gain plenty from good ones.

The B8 S5 4.2 is another good one. 13.4 @ 102 is a typical S5 stock 1/4 mile time. JHM went 12.60 @ 108 mph. That's again a huge difference. Tune, exhaust, lw parts. No secret sauce. All pump gas.

Optiondoc
12-17-2015, 07:52 AM
lol you guys both bought the wrong car. Good luck adding a jet pack and driving around sitting on a milk crate. You guys should just go buy a GTR and be done with it.


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Bianco
12-17-2015, 07:55 AM
lol you guys both bought the wrong car. Good luck adding a jet pack and driving around sitting on a milk crate. You guys should just go buy a GTR and be done with it.


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that makes no sense. You're suggesting buying an ugly, fidgety, plasticy, bad sounding V6 $100,000 race car? What if we already bought a $75,000 RS5 and love the hell out of it? Should we just give up?

Hopefully I can speak for other RS5 owners when I say nobody bought it to win drag races. We want a beautiful, great handling, great sounding all arounder that we can drive every day and can get a rush when doing so. If we want to get a little more out of it for a few thousand bucks while KEEPING the RS5, is that so wrong?

Optiondoc
12-17-2015, 07:59 AM
that makes no sense. You're suggesting buying an ugly, fidgety, plasticy, bad sounding V6 $100,000 race car? What if we already bought a $75,000 RS5 and love the hell out of it? Should we just give up?

Hopefully I can speak for other RS5 owners when I say nobody bought it to win drag races. We want a beautiful, great handling, great sounding all arounder that we can drive every day and can get a rush when doing so. If we want to get a little more out of it for a few thousand bucks while KEEPING the RS5, is that so wrong?

Then, perhaps, I misunderstood. The reasons you stated is precisely why the RS5 is great. I was simply referring to folks who say "well I can save 15k on sticker and void a 30k drivetrain!" Also, I'll just strip down and destroy my car with 20k worth of work in order to make it as fast or a negligible amount faster than the car that cost 15k more.

It's asinine. I'm saying, if you're going to destroy your beautiful S4/5 or RS5 for drag times, you simply bought the wrong car. A used GTR is now in or around the price of an RS5. Now you've got your drag machine for extensively less headache.


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doug97gxe
12-17-2015, 07:59 AM
lol you guys both bought the wrong car. Good luck adding a jet pack and driving around sitting on a milk crate. You guys should just go buy a GTR and be done with it.


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Don't worry about Bianca according to him I own an RS5


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Bianco
12-17-2015, 08:10 AM
Then, perhaps, I misunderstood. The reasons you stated is precisely why the RS5 is great. I was simply referring to folks who say "well I can save 15k on sticker and void a 30k drivetrain!" Also, I'll just strip down and destroy my car with 20k worth of work in order to make it as fast or a negligible amount faster than the car that cost 15k more.

It's asinine. I'm saying, if you're going to destroy your beautiful S4/5 or RS5 for drag times, you simply bought the wrong car. A used GTR is now in or around the price of an RS5. Now you've got your drag machine for extensively less headache.


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those people are generally from one of a couple of camps including
1. not being able to afford the more expensive car (or not wanting to bury a giant pile of money in a depreciating asset).
2. they genuinely don't understand that you can modify naturaly aspirated cars effectively (people like Dougmaxima who just got a crash course on the subject)
3. they just like turbo sounds and supercharger whine or the 'feel' of boost (which is basically turbo lag and is undesirable to most)


As for 'if you're going to destroy your S4/S5/RS5'...what does that mean? Is adding an exhaust and an ECU tune destroying the car? How about a supercharger pulley? How about an open intake to let the SC work more effectively? I don't think those are destroying the car at all. You'd be visually hard pressed to tell the cars are even modified. Other than a little more volume from the RS5 and a little more supercharger whine form the 3.0T from the intake.

Optiondoc
12-17-2015, 08:18 AM
The guys who don't want to spend the money for the RS5 over the S models are an interesting bunch of folks. The logic is beyond my grasp:

My MAX loss over the S model is the 15k (+\-) more than the S model. So let's save the 15k, and dump 3k (brakes, suspension, tuning) into it (net 12k savings) in order to achieve the SAME result. Now my max loss is ANY and ALL repairs which can be essentially unlimited. And what exactly did they accomplish? They placed themselves on the hook for 35k worth of drivetrain in order to save 15. It makes no sense. Go buy a used GTR and you have performance that your S/RS5 will never achieve.


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Bianco
12-17-2015, 08:39 AM
The guys who don't want to spend the money for the RS5 over the S models are an interesting bunch of folks. The logic is beyond my grasp:

My MAX loss over the S model is the 15k (+\-) more than the S model. So let's save the 15k, and dump 3k (brakes, suspension, tuning) into it (net 12k savings) in order to achieve the SAME result. Now my max loss is ANY and ALL repairs which can be essentially unlimited. And what exactly did they accomplish? They placed themselves on the hook for 35k worth of drivetrain in order to save 15. It makes no sense. Go buy a used GTR and you have performance that your S/RS5 will never achieve.


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let's really look at the facts instead of guessing...because you don't just buy a car, you evventually have to sell it. Using sold auction data.

2013 RS5 $70,000.
Current value approximately $52,000. Depreciation $18,000

2013 S5 $52,000 (could be more to match an RS5, but let's leave it at $52,000)
Current value approximately $37,000. Depreciation $15,000

So the RS5 depreciated $3000 more in total over 3 years. The S5 owner however bought a tune and pulley for $1,600 as well as a $400 intake to match RS5 performance in a straight line. So he's actually only saving $1,000 over 3 years.

So for $1000 over 3 years, the RS5 owner has a better looking, better sounding, far more rare car. And the depreciation story? It gets MUCH worse for the S5 over the next 2 years. That's the problem with owning one of 30,000 vs. one of 4,000.

Optiondoc
12-17-2015, 08:43 AM
Don't forget the warranty he or she voided by tuning. That's the main point. Buy an RS5, change some cosmetic things to your liking, or don't. Drive it, enjoy it and keep the warranty. Engine blows up? Great, here you go VAG, fix it. Vs S5 guy, buys, tunes, blows up engine then sorry pal you owe me 30k all because you wanted to AS fast as the RS but didn't want to lay out the extra cash up front. I understand for Subarus or a civic. Fuck it, buy an STI for 10k and drop 15 into it. Now 25g all in and you've got turbo galore and 500whp. Much better value


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bknewtype
12-17-2015, 08:46 AM
s5's are boring