Difference between rs5 and s5?

[Nobodyman]

What are the main things that somehow manage o make extra 100hp? I see that there is another air intake on the ra5. But really how, is it the transmission? It had very low torque but a lot of HP.

[ryanhmusic]

What are the main things that somehow manage o make extra 100hp? I see that there is another air intake on the ra5. But really how, is it the transmission? It had very low torque but a lot of HP.

its an entirely different engine.

the rs5 engine is similar to the engine in the b7 rs4 and the r8 v8 [shares almost everything if i remember correctly]

the s5 engine is a rehash of the b7 s4 v8 which shares nothing other than displacement with the rs v8

[NoMojo31]

What are the main things that somehow manage o make extra 100hp? I see that there is another air intake on the ra5. But really how, is it the transmission? It had very low torque but a lot of HP.

Money.

[AudiYes]

hope

[dazed1]

its an entirely different engine.

the rs5 engine is similar to the engine in the b7 rs4 and the r8 v8 [shares almost everything if i remember correctly]

the s5 engine is a rehash of the b7 s4 v8 which shares nothing other than displacement with the rs v8

Not really.

The RS5 engine has more in common with the R8 V10 (minus 2 cylinders), and the Gallardo (I think) engine. Shares very little with the RS4 engine. Then of course the transmission is completely different than the RS4 / S5 (V8).

[doug97gxe]

sex, drugs and rock and roll

[doug97gxe]

What are the main things that somehow manage o make extra 100hp? I see that there is another air intake on the ra5. But really how, is it the transmission? It had very low torque but a lot of HP.

i believe the RS5 has a higher redline .. might have to compare the dyno's to see where the power difference is

[Nobodyman]

Not really.

The RS5 engine has more in common with the R8 V10 (minus 2 cylinders), and the Gallardo (I think) engine. Shares very little with the RS4 engine. Then of course the transmission is completely different than the RS4 / S5 (V8).

I was thinking the rs5 just had better conpnents outside the engine and better air fuel mixtures because of that second air intake. But you are saying the 4.2l engine is actually different inside? More CCs?

[doug97gxe]

RS5 has about 30 hp diff to the S5


S5

http://www.goapr.com/includes/img/products/dyno/42l_fsi_v8_b8_s5/42l_fsi_v8_b8_s5_stage_i_93_crank.gif

RS5

http://www.goapr.com/includes/img/products/dyno/42l_fsi_v8_b8_rs5/42l_fsi_v8_b8_rs5_s0_vs_s1_93_cc.gif

[NoMojo31]

RS5 has about 30 hp diff to the S5


S5

http://www.goapr.com/includes/img/products/dyno/42l_fsi_v8_b8_s5/42l_fsi_v8_b8_s5_stage_i_93_crank.gif

RS5

http://www.goapr.com/includes/img/products/dyno/42l_fsi_v8_b8_rs5/42l_fsi_v8_b8_rs5_s0_vs_s1_93_cc.gif

I'm not too bright and don't know much about such charts, but one goes to "375" on the horsepower bar and the other goes to "475." Seems like more than "30."

[doug97gxe]

I'm not too bright and don't know much about such charts, but one goes to "375" on the horsepower bar and the other goes to "475." Seems like more than "30."

At the same RPM since the RS5 redlines higher


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[NoMojo31]

At the same RPM since the RS5 redlines higher


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That's what one calls "selective perception." Only makes them comparable at that one data point, but does not offer a fair comparison overall.

[doug97gxe]

That's what one calls "selective perception." Only makes them comparable at that one data point, but does not offer a fair comparison overall.

yeah originally my thought was its the same engine with a higher redline .. but the fact that at the same RPM comparison its not as cut and dry as the redline being higher .. maybe different compression and more aggressive factory tune.. so the 30 hp difference was really me saying no they are not the same at the same RPM

[superswiss]

There are three ways in a combustion engine to make more power.

1. Forced induction
2. Higher displacement
3. Higher RPM (High-rev)

Or a combination of the three. The RS5 engine utilizes the third one. It's a high-rev engine based on the R8 V10, which itself is based on the Lambo Gallardo. The RS5 engine has a 8500 rpm redline. It's the same concept that's used in racing. F1 engines for example have an 18,000 rpm redline or something like that.

Some more background for those who paid attention in school. The simplified formula underlying this is horsepower = torque x rpm. There are some factors in there, but that's essentially it. So to make more horsepower you can either increase torque or rpm. 1. and 2. increase torque and 3. obviously increases rpm.

[ryanhmusic]

Just did a little research on the topic and here's what I found:

RS4 & R8 utilize a 4.2L 32v FSI V8
- Audi B7 RS4 engine code is "BNS"
- Audi R8 engine code is "BYH"

Major difference: RS4 utilizes a wet sump system whereas the R8 uses a dry sump.

Audi's 5.2L V10 was derived from this engine. Audi's V10 =/= Lamborghini's V10. [ALTHOUGH, Audi's V10 went into the S8 and S6. Lamborghini's V10 went into the R8.]

B7 S4 utilizes a 4.2L 40v V8 [the engine with incredible timing issues], this engine was also used in the B6 S4, the A6, the A8, and the Phaeton [although some used a timing belt instead of chain and had different accessory mounting].

Audi's RS5 engine was derived from Lamborghini's 5.2L V10 and shares nothing in common with the R8 V8 or the RS4 V8.

The B8 S5 engine still remains a mystery to me. It appears to be nearly the same as the B6/7 S4 engine but I can't find any documentation to confirm or deny that relationship.

[KmorgsRS5]

Just did a little research on the topic and here's what I found:

RS4 & R8 utilize a 4.2L 32v FSI V8
- Audi B7 RS4 engine code is "BNS"
- Audi R8 engine code is "BYH"

Major difference: RS4 utilizes a wet sump system whereas the R8 uses a dry sump.

Audi's 5.2L V10 was derived from this engine. Audi's V10 =/= Lamborghini's V10. [ALTHOUGH, Audi's V10 went into the S8 and S6. Lamborghini's V10 went into the R8.]

B7 S4 utilizes a 4.2L 40v V8 [the engine with incredible timing issues], this engine was also used in the B6 S4, the A6, the A8, and the Phaeton [although some used a timing belt instead of chain and had different accessory mounting].

Audi's RS5 engine was derived from Lamborghini's 5.2L V10 and shares nothing in common with the R8 V8 or the RS4 V8.

The B8 S5 engine still remains a mystery to me. It appears to be nearly the same as the B6/7 S4 engine but I can't find any documentation to confirm or deny that relationship.

I assume the RS5 has wet sump?

[doug97gxe]

Just did a little research on the topic and here's what I found:

RS4 & R8 utilize a 4.2L 32v FSI V8
- Audi B7 RS4 engine code is "BNS"
- Audi R8 engine code is "BYH"

Major difference: RS4 utilizes a wet sump system whereas the R8 uses a dry sump.

Audi's 5.2L V10 was derived from this engine. Audi's V10 =/= Lamborghini's V10. [ALTHOUGH, Audi's V10 went into the S8 and S6. Lamborghini's V10 went into the R8.]

B7 S4 utilizes a 4.2L 40v V8 [the engine with incredible timing issues], this engine was also used in the B6 S4, the A6, the A8, and the Phaeton [although some used a timing belt instead of chain and had different accessory mounting].

Audi's RS5 engine was derived from Lamborghini's 5.2L V10 and shares nothing in common with the R8 V8 or the RS4 V8.

The B8 S5 engine still remains a mystery to me. It appears to be nearly the same as the B6/7 S4 engine but I can't find any documentation to confirm or deny that relationship.

couple things i found on another forum as well


EC kw L Dates Make Model Notes
ABH 206 4.2 10/92-07/94 AUDI S4 V8
ABH 206 4.2 10/91-11/93 AUDI V8 "CN."/PR-K8L:
ABH 206 4.2 10/91-11/93 AUDI V8 "KSA":V8 V8
ABH 206 4.2 08/91-11/93 AUDI V8 PR-K8L:V8 V8
ABH 206 4.2 08/91-11/93 AUDI V8 V8
ABZ 220 4.2 05/94-05/99 AUDI A8 V8
AEC 213 4.2 09/94-10/97 AUDI S6 V8
AEM 180 4.2 06/94-07/96 AUDI A8 V8
AGH 210 4.2 04/97-12/98 AUDI A8 "CN.","GUS": V8
AGH 210 4.2 07/95-07/96 AUDI A8 V8
AHC 250 4.2 09/96-12/98 AUDI S8 V8
AHK 240 4.2 06/96-10/97 AUDI S6
AKG 220 4.2 06/97-12/98 AUDI A8 V8
AKH 250 4.2 08/97-12/98 AUDI S8 V8
ANK 250 4.2 09/99-01/05 AUDI S6 V8
AQF 228 4.2 10/98-09/02 AUDI A8 V8
AQH 265 4.2 05/99-09/02 AUDI S8 V8
AQJ 250 4.2 09/99-05/01 AUDI S6 V8
ARS 220 4.2 04/99-05/01 AUDI A6 V8
ARU 175 4.2 02/99-04/00 AUDI A8 V8
ASG 220 4.2 04/99-01/05 AUDI A6 V8
AUW 228 4.2 10/98-09/02 AUDI A8 V8
AVP 265 4.2 05/99-09/02 AUDI S8 V8
AXQ 228 4.2 12/02-11/06 VW TOUAREG
AXQ 228 4.2 06/05-11/06 VW TOUAREG TDI
AYS 265 4.2 05/99-09/02 AUDI S8 "J..":V8
BAR 257 4.2 03/06-05/10 AUDI Q7
BAR 257 4.2 06/06-05/10 VW TOUAREG "USA", "CDN"
BAS 220 4.2 04/03-08/05 AUDI A6 V8
BAT 246 4.2 04/04-07/06 AUDI A6
BAT 246 4.2 04/04-05/06 AUDI A6 PR-F4S
BBK 253 4.2 01/06-03/09 AUDI A4
BBK 253 4.2 02/04-12/05 AUDI A4 V8
BBK 253 4.2 11/04-06/08 AUDI S4
BBK 253 4.2 03/03-12/04 AUDI S4 V8
BCS 265 4.2 05/99-09/02 AUDI S8 "J..":V8
BCY 331 4.2 07/02-09/04 AUDI RS6 V8
BFM 246 4.2 08/02-05/06 AUDI A8
BFM 246 4.2 08/02-05/06 AUDI A8 V8
BFM 246 4.2 05/03-05/06 AUDI A8L
BFM 246 4.2 05/03-05/06 AUDI A8L V8
BGH 246 4.2 05/10- VW PHAETON SRE
BGH 246 4.2 05/03-05/10 VW PHAETON V8
BGJ 246 4.2 05/03-05/07 VW PHAETON V8
BHF 253 4.2 11/04-06/08 AUDI S4 "ROK"
BMC 235 4.2 01/05-10/07 AUDI A8 TDI
BMC 235 4.2 07/05-10/07 AUDI A8L TDI
BNS 309 4.2 11/05-10/08 AUDI RS4
BNS 309 4.2 11/05-06/08 AUDI RS4 "ROK"
BRV 353 4.2 04/04-09/04 AUDI RS6
BTR 240 4.2 03/07-06/09 AUDI Q7 TDI
BVJ 257 4.2 05/06-08/11 AUDI A6
BVJ 257 4.2 06/06-10/08 AUDI A6 "ROK"
BVJ 257 4.2 06/06-08/11 AUDI A6 PR-F4S
BVJ 257 4.2 06/06-07/10 AUDI A8
BVJ 257 4.2 06/06-07/10 AUDI A8L
BVN 240 4.2 01/05-07/10 AUDI A8
BVN 240 4.2 01/05-10/07 AUDI A8 TDI
BVN 240 4.2 07/05-07/10 AUDI A8L
BVN 240 4.2 07/05-10/07 AUDI A8L TDI
CAUA 260 4.2 06/07-03/12 AUDI S5 COUPE
CCFA 250 4.2 06/09-05/10 AUDI Q7
CCFC 250 4.2 05/10- AUDI Q7
CCFC 250 4.2 05/10- AUDI Q7 "IND"
CDRA 273 4.2 11/09-06/12 AUDI A8
CDRA 273 4.2 07/10-06/12 AUDI A8L
CDSB 258 4.2 11/09-04/14 AUDI A8
CDSB 258 4.2 07/10-04/14 AUDI A8L
CEMA 257 4.2 02/09- VW MARINEM TDI-CR-BIT
CFSA 331 4.2 05/12- AUDI RS4 TDI
CFSA 331 4.2 03/10- AUDI RS5
CGNA 265 4.2 01/11-05/12 VW TOUAREG
CGNA 265 4.2 05/12- VW TOUAREG FSI
CKDA 250 4.2 01/10- VW TOUAREG TDI
CNDA 316 4.2 07/12- AUDI R8
CTEC 283 4.2 09/13- AUDI A8
CTEC 283 4.2 09/13- AUDI A8L



Isn't the B7 RS4 motor the same as the 4.2 in the (insert random Audi 4.2 here)

Answer: No!

I saw NWS4guy make a comment on another forum that made me realise people really don't understand that there are about half a dozen 4.2 Audi V8 engines just from the last 6-7 years alone. He erroneously said "As for no RS car will share an engine with a lesser car WTF do you call putting the 4.2 from the B7 in the RS4?"

The MPI 4.2 in the B6/7 S4 is entirely different again from the S5/Q7 FSI engine...but that's another thread altogether. Here's a nice list of differences from Audi's study guide for those wondering. Here's what Audi says about the 'high revving' 4.2 FSI (R8/RS4) vs. the 'standard' 4.2 FSI (Q7, S5) with some modifications to the info from jstahmann.

The main technical differences between the base engine and the high-revving engine lie in the following:

* Crankshaft/connecting rods/pistons
* Timing gear
* Cylinder head
* Oil supply
* Engine cooling
* Intake path
* Exhaust system
* Engine management


The cylinder crankcase of the high-revving engine was machined to higher specifications due to the higher stresses in this component. To minimize warping of the cylinder manifolds, the crankcase is honed under stress. For this purpose, a honing template is attached to the crankcase before the honing process in order to simulate the warping of the bolted-on cylinder manifold.

Modifications to High-revving Engine
At very high engine speeds, axial vibration occurs due to the unbalance in the single-mass damper. This can cause the crankshaft to break.

To avoid this vibration, a dual-mass damper without unbalance is employed in the high-revving engine. To compensate for unwanted engine vibration, heavy metal inserts are integrated in the first and eighth crank journals by way of unbalance.

Connecting Rod
Cracked connecting rods made of 36MnVS4 are used in the basic engine, while the conventionally split connecting rods in the RS4 engine are made of 34CrNiMo8, for strength.

In addition, the geometry and tolerances of the
connecting rods were reduced on the high revving version of the 4.2L V8 FSI engine.

Bearing journals diameter: 54 mm
Bearing bushings: 1.4 mm thick, 15.25 mm wide
Length of bushing: 0.20 mm diameter rolled
Connecting rod length: 154 mm

Piston
For strength reasons, forged pistons with a slightly higher weight than conventional pistons, are used. Both engines have the same piston geometry.
Piston weight without rings: approximately 290 g (10 oz)
Piston pin: 0.20 mm x 0.11.5 mm x 40 mm

High-revving Engine

* 3/8" simplex sleeve-type chains are used here. Their advantage is their reduced wear and higher stress resistance at high engine speeds. In this case the idler gears have 38 and 19 teeth. The camshaft sprockets have 25 teeth.


Different Features of the High-revving Engine

* To match the higher engine power output and RPM, the following cylinder head components were modified:
* Intake ports are charge optimized (based on larger cross-sections)
* Intake valves are chrome-plated hollow stem valves (for weight reduction)
* Valve springs are made of a material with higher tensile strength and also have higher spring force
* To meet the higher fuel requirements, the injectors are designed for higher flow rates.
* Roller rocker arms are more robustly designed, with peened rollers for higher strength
* Camshafts have different timings and larger opening lengths
* Intake valve opening angle 230 crank angle degrees
* Exhaust valve opening angle 220 crank angle degrees
* The lifters were adapted from the 3.2L V6 engine found in the TT and A3. They have a larger ball stroke which, in the course of testing, proved advantageous for the high-revving engine (with regard to the inflation of the hydraulic valve clearance compensation element).
* The cylinder head has a modified water jacket which circulates coolant to the area between the intake port and the injector, thereby reducing the temperatures in the cylinder head combustion chamber plate.
* Due to a modified camshaft drive reduction ratio, the camshaft adjuster has 25 teeth for the chain drive, as opposed to 30 teeth in the basic engine.

In the more highly stressed high-revving engine, an additional oil-air heat exchanger is used to minimize the oil temperature even at high engine load. This additional heat exchanger is operated in parallel with the heat exchanger via a thermostat.

Audi RS4 Sump
A reliable supply of oil in all driving situations is critical, especially in a sports car such as the RS4. The oil supply system in the high-revving engine was designed for racing applications in which it is subjected to lateral
acceleration of up to 1.4 g. To ensure this, the sump in the RS4 has an additional system of flaps.

Design
Four flaps, whose axis of rotation is parallel to the longitudinal axis of vehicle, are arranged inside a housing. Each of the flaps opens toward the inside of the intake end of the oil pump.

Function
When the vehicle is cornering, the oil flows inside the sump toward the outside of the corner. The two flaps facing the outside of the corner close and hold the oil in the sump intake. At the same time, the two flaps facing the inside of the
corner open to allow additional oil to flow into the intake. This ensures a sufficient supply of oil to the oil pump.

The intake system of the RS4 engine was designed with emphasis on maximum flow control. Pressure loss is minimized by a large cross-sectional areas in the Mass Air Flow (MAF) Sensor G70 and air intake pipe in combination with a 90 mm diameter throttle valve.

To ensure a sufficient supply of air to the engine at high RPM, the power flap in the air filter is opened at engine speeds higher than 5000 RPM and at road speeds higher than 200 kph.
The power flap is opened and closed by a vacuum
actuator which is map-controlled by the ECM via the Intake Air Switch-Over Valve N335.

The sand cast aluminum (should be magnesium) intake manifold was designed specifically to match the sporty characteristic of the engine. In contrast to the basic engine, maximum torque is produced at higher engine RPM. At this engine speed, the intake manifold changeover valve would be switched to the short path for higher power output.

Spark Plugs
In contrast to the Audi Q7, spark plugs with a higher heatrating (colder plugs)* are used because the RS4 engine is subjected to higher thermal stresses.
* applies to NGK spark plugs

Injectors
Due to the higher fuel demand and the shorter window of time available for injection at very high engine speeds, the RS4 engine is fitted with larger injectors than the Audi Q7 engine.

[ryanhmusic]

couple things i found on another forum as well

So if I'm reading this right: [please correct me if I'm wrong]

B7 RS4 Engine is different from B6/7 S4 Engine [we knew this]

B8 RS4 Engine = B8 RS5 Engine [obviously we didn't get the B8 RS4 in the US]

B8 S5 V8 Engine has an entirely unique code to the B6/B7 S4 engine but we don't have a list of differences and for all we know, they fixed the timing system and applied a new engine code to it?

Also: thanks for the info dump -- that write up was very well done.

[doug97gxe]

So if I'm reading this right: [please correct me if I'm wrong]

B7 RS4 Engine is different from B6/7 S4 Engine [we knew this]

B8 RS4 Engine = B8 RS5 Engine [obviously we didn't get the B8 RS4 in the US]

B8 S5 V8 Engine has an entirely unique code to the B6/B7 S4 engine but we don't have a list of differences and for all we know, they fixed the timing system and applied a new engine code to it?

Also: thanks for the info dump -- that write up was very well done.

i think so

[superswiss]

The B8 S5 engine still remains a mystery to me. It appears to be nearly the same as the B6/7 S4 engine but I can't find any documentation to confirm or deny that relationship.

Based on the information I have come across since trading in my B7 S4, the B8 S5 engine is the B7 S4 engine plus FSI plus fixes for the timing chain, cylinder scorching and excessive oil consumption issues.

[A4-B6]

So what really matters, has anyone or shop tried putting RS5 heads/cams and timing gear on an S5 engine? This seems plausible to me and could net some real good gains.

KM

[ryanhmusic]

Definitely never heard of anyone attempting this but I would venture to guess there would be some major fueling and tuning hiccups along the way. Probably much cheaper to swap the whole engine / ECU / harness in. Probably even cheaper to sell the s5 and buy an rs5 given how much they're coming down in price...

[Skywagon]

So what really matters, has anyone or shop tried putting RS5 heads/cams and timing gear on an S5 engine? This seems plausible to me and could net some real good gains.

KM

FWIW, I read somewhere that the V-8s are totally different but by co-incidence they are both 4.2 liters?

[ttusqrl]

Not sure it is coincidence. Same piston size means easier manufacturing.


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[dgszweda]

Not sure it is coincidence. Same piston size means easier manufacturing.


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The amount of liters is based on piston size and stroke. So I am not sure they are the same.

[ttusqrl]

The amount of liters is based on piston size and stroke. So I am not sure they are the same.

Agreed. I'm making a huge assumption here, however I believe based on previous reading the rods are the same length which would lead me to believe stroke is the same or very similar.


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[psiaddict85]

So if I'm reading this right: [please correct me if I'm wrong]

B7 RS4 Engine is different from B6/7 S4 Engine [we knew this]

B8 RS4 Engine = B8 RS5 Engine [obviously we didn't get the B8 RS4 in the US]

B8 S5 V8 Engine has an entirely unique code to the B6/B7 S4 engine but we don't have a list of differences and for all we know, they fixed the timing system and applied a new engine code to it?

Also: thanks for the info dump -- that write up was very well done.

B8 S5 4.2 is direct injected and B6/B7 4.2 is not

[Plutolawyer]

If you're talking about the new models, the S5 no longer has a V8. It has a supercharged V6 similar to the A7 but with a few more HP. The RS5 has the 4.2L V8. Huge difference.


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[doug97gxe]

If you're talking about the new models, the S5 no longer has a V8. It has a supercharged V6 similar to the A7 but with a few more HP. The RS5 has the 4.2L V8. Huge difference.


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The A6/7 and S4/5 all make the same hp for 2016


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