EPL Stage 1 Logs

[PitchS4]

I was finally able to run some logs on my EPL Stage 1 tune that I did about a month ago. Big thanks to achilleas101 for letting me interrupt his Saturday morning to barrow his VAG-COM Cable.

This was 3 separate pulls. Obviously the 2nd one was pretty short, but hopefully you get the idea. I am pretty happy with where it is at. Boost valve is staying closed, timing pull is minimal and O2s are safe (maybe even a bit rich). Boost builds to redline at about 13psi (local atmosphere pressure was 1020 hPa). It was about 80 degrees and 80% humidity.

http://i346.photobucket.com/albums/p429/pitch282/epl%20stage%201.jpg

Overall I had a great experience with with EPL. Being able to flash at home instead of paying a local shop an hour worth of labor (called APR and GIAC dealers both wanted labor costs) plus take the time out of my day to drive there and wait was a huge plus. I was able to do it in about 20min in my driveway. Car is running well with no driveability issues or codes.

Let me know if you have any questions.

[AZT]

Thanks for logging. Would be interesting to see the actual timing (ignition angle) values as well.

And by my view, the O2 lambda value (0.9) in the high RPMs may actually be leaner (or 'less rich') than other tunes or even the stock ECU which enrichens down to 0.8 (supposedly modeled to keep EGTs safe). Not to say anything is wrong with maintaining 0.9, maybe EPL can comment on their approach.

[PitchS4]

Here is the timing angle.

http://i346.photobucket.com/albums/p429/pitch282/timing.jpg

I think it is the other way around. .9 is richer then .8

V ----- A/F
0.745 - 16.3
0.78 -- 15.68
0.78 -- 15.28
0.78 -- 15.21
0.835 - 15.13
0.835 - 14.47
0.835 - 13.97
0.835 - 14
0.835 - 14.02
0.835 - 14.16
0.835 - 14.14
0.835 - 14.29
0.855 - 14.01
0.855 - 13.89
0.855 - 13.87
0.855 - 13.75
0.855 - 13.66
0.855 - 13.58
0.855 - 13.55
0.855 - 13.47
0.855 - 13.31
0.855 - 13.32
0.855 - 13.28
0.875 - 13.34
0.875 - 13.22
0.875 - 13.14

A 'Stoichiometric' AFR has the correct amount of air and fuel to produce a chemically complete combustion event. For gasoline engines, the stoichiometric, A/F ratio is 14.7:1, which means 14.7 parts of air to one part of fuel. The stoichiometric AFR depends on fuel type-- for alcohol it is 6.4:1 and 14.5:1 for diesel.

A lower AFR number contains less air than the 14.7:1 stoichiometric AFR, therefore it is a richer mixture. Conversely, a higher AFR number contains more air and therefore it is a leaner mixture.

For Example:
15.0:1 = Lean
14.7:1 = Stoichiometric
13.0:1 = Rich

[Tony@EPL]

Looks great!

We do run in the mid-higher .8X's on our stage one files. On our shop car with an external egt prob we did not find any reduction in temperatures running richer then that. On our CA 91 file and our stage 2 file's we are down in the .82-3 range.

Thanks for posting.

Ill do $749 on stage 1 files for the rest of the day if anyone would like this same tune!

[AudBoost]

I think it is the other way around. .9 is richer then .8

A lambda value of .9 is a 13.23 :1 AFR where as a lambda value of .8 is 11.76 :1 AFR.

http://www.wallaceracing.com/air-fuel-lambda.php

[AZT]

I think it is the other way around. .9 is richer then .8

V ----- A/F
0.745 - 16.3
0.78 -- 15.68
0.78 -- 15.28
0.78 -- 15.21
0.835 - 15.13
0.835 - 14.47
0.835 - 13.97
0.835 - 14
0.835 - 14.02
0.835 - 14.16
0.835 - 14.14
0.835 - 14.29
0.855 - 14.01
0.855 - 13.89
0.855 - 13.87
0.855 - 13.75
<snip>


Pitch - which block are you measuring for O2? Generally the wideband 'lambda' value (not a voltage) is logged and that has a direct conversion to air/fuel ratio, where for gasoline, lambda = AF ratio / 14.7

Lambda = Air-Fuel Ratio

1.00 = 14.7
0.95 = 14.0
0.90 = 13.2
0.85 = 12.5
0.80 = 11.8

Tony - thanks for the comment!

[DirtyDog--IRL]

Is there a comparison of this vs other tuners? I am still on the fence for which Tune to go with but I love the idea of saving time and money on get it flipped back and forth but if it's a big power difference that needs to be factored in


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[AZT]

By the way what fuel octane were you on?

[bhvrdr]

For comparisons sake my car is going from .95 at low rpm to .90 in the mid rpm range to .85 to .80 at the upper rpm range. This is what the stock AFR looks like

Interestingly Tony had this to say about it..



Doesnt this A/F ratio concern anyone else?

.9-.95 lambda basically under full load is far leaner then your standard stage 1-2 tunes would run. I'd be apprehensive about driving this way, especially in higher gears and for auto-x/track use.

I'm guessing he has now changed his mind and .9 is just fine all the way to redline. This is leaner up top than the stock fuel curve.

Every tuner is a bit different. GIAC has a stock like fuel curve that enrichens up in the higher rev band. APR runs richer throughout the rev band. I havent seen another tuner running .90 at redline but i'm sure he has his reasons.

You may want to log your EGTs as that will also be helpful to see how the car is running. Nothing jumps out other than the afr curve though.

Mike

[Tony@EPL]

For comparisons sake my car is going from .95 at low rpm to .90 in the mid rpm range to .85 to .80 at the upper rpm range. This is what the stock AFR looks like

Interestingly Tony had this to say about it..




I'm guessing he has now changed his mind and .9 is just fine all the way to redline. This is leaner up top than the stock fuel curve.

Every tuner is a bit different. GIAC has a stock like fuel curve. APR runs richer throughout the rev band.

Mike

The difference is... and HUGE difference I may add, is with a real tune the ecu knows whats going on and is able to compensate where necessary. With a "blinder box" as I like to call them, the ecu is essentially running off a complete stock fueling prospective with no "motorsports" theory behind it.... its hanging on for dear life trying to figure out whats happening. This should be relatively clear based on the fact that the .8 lambda you are seeing on your car is in is not a "programmed requested" value its do to the ecu running in protection maps needed out of necessity.

You will notice notice that the tune enriched very nicely before peak torque, where if I remember correctly you were still running lambda 1.0.

Thanks for commenting though, that brings good info to the table.

[bhvrdr]

The difference is... and HUGE difference I may add, is with a real tune the ecu knows whats going on and is able to compensate where necessary. With a "blinder box" as I like to call them, the ecu is essentially running off a complete stock fueling prospective with no "motorsports" theory behind it.... its hanging on for dear life trying to figure out whats happening. This should be relatively clear based on the fact that the .8 lambda you are seeing on your car is in is not a "programmed requested" value its do to the ecu running in protection maps needed out of necessity.

Thanks for commenting though, that brings good info to the table.

Yikes, I hope you have just forgotten what the stock ECU requests in the upper rpms. You do realize the stock ecu will request a more rich mixture than .9 in the upper rpm band right? The stock ECU requests .85 to .80 in the upper rpm under normal WOT pulls and it will enrichen even more up to .75 as the temps increase.

Mike

[Tony@EPL]

Yikes, I hope you have just forgotten what the stock ECU requests in the upper rpms. You do realize the stock ecu will request a more rich mixture than .9 in the upper rpm band right? The stock ECU requests .85 to .80 in the upper rpm under normal WOT pulls and it will enrichen even more up to .75 as the temps increase.

Mike

Sorry, its does not. Below is full load enrichment from the factory. If its enriching, it is for other reasons, which is entirely possible both stock and tuned.... more so when running a "tuning box" from what we have seen, often due to knock.


0.950 0.950 0.950 0.925 0.900 0.900 0.900 0.900 0.900 0.900 0.900 0.900
0.950 0.950 0.950 0.925 0.900 0.900 0.900 0.900 0.900 0.900 0.900 0.900
0.950 0.950 0.950 0.925 0.900 0.900 0.900 0.900 0.900 0.900 0.900 0.900
0.950 0.950 0.950 0.925 0.900 0.900 0.900 0.900 0.900 0.900 0.900 0.900
0.950 0.950 0.950 0.925 0.900 0.900 0.900 0.900 0.900 0.900 0.900 0.900
0.950 0.950 0.950 0.925 0.900 0.900 0.900 0.900 0.900 0.900 0.900 0.900
0.950 0.950 0.950 0.925 0.900 0.900 0.900 0.900 0.900 0.900 0.900 0.900
0.950 0.950 0.950 0.925 0.900 0.900 0.900 0.900 0.900 0.900 0.900 0.900

[PitchS4]

So the blocks I logged were:

G061 and G062
Oxygen sensor bank 1 sensor 2 (jump sensor)
Oxygen sensor bank 2 sensor 2 (jump sensor)

Looking at this now I think I logged the wrong thing. This is the secondary O2 which is after the cat and may have impacted the values? This was my first time logging with VCDS so it looks like what I wanted when I was checking boxes before the runs. Sorry if this makes the data somewhat useless. I can try to barrow the cable again. Which groups should I be logging for the most accurate A/F values?

[Dudemans4]

I've been beating the shit out of my epl stage 2 tune for close to 5 months now. some of you act as if Apr giac and revo are the only guys who know how to tune. The fact you would question a man that has such a well known name in the Porsche and b5 s4 world blows my mind. If you think you can tune better you should probably open a shop and put your time and money into developing something you would put on your vehicle. Then maybe you won't be driving around on a stock tune since you know so much

[bhvrdr]

Sorry, its does not. Below is full load enrichment from the factory. If its enriching, it is for other reasons, which is entirely possible both stock and tuned.... more so when running a "tuning box" from what we have seen, often due to knock.


0.950 0.950 0.950 0.925 0.900 0.900 0.900 0.900 0.900 0.900 0.900 0.900
0.950 0.950 0.950 0.925 0.900 0.900 0.900 0.900 0.900 0.900 0.900 0.900
0.950 0.950 0.950 0.925 0.900 0.900 0.900 0.900 0.900 0.900 0.900 0.900
0.950 0.950 0.950 0.925 0.900 0.900 0.900 0.900 0.900 0.900 0.900 0.900
0.950 0.950 0.950 0.925 0.900 0.900 0.900 0.900 0.900 0.900 0.900 0.900
0.950 0.950 0.950 0.925 0.900 0.900 0.900 0.900 0.900 0.900 0.900 0.900
0.950 0.950 0.950 0.925 0.900 0.900 0.900 0.900 0.900 0.900 0.900 0.900
0.950 0.950 0.950 0.925 0.900 0.900 0.900 0.900 0.900 0.900 0.900 0.900

Umm, so now I am very confused. You stated...


Doesnt this A/F ratio concern anyone else?

.9-.95 lambda basically under full load is far leaner then your standard stage 1-2 tunes would run. I'd be apprehensive about driving this way, especially in higher gears and for auto-x/track use.

But now you are stating that your tune running .90 at redline is ok and what stock tunes are running

Pitch, here is an actual datalog of the stock afr under load...

0.957 Lambda / -0.246 mA
0.946 Lambda / -0.313 mA
0.955 Lambda / -0.254 mA
0.945 Lambda / -0.316 mA
0.947 Lambda / -0.301 mA
0.951 Lambda / -0.277 mA
0.946 Lambda / -0.305 mA
0.944 Lambda / -0.320 mA
0.935 Lambda / -0.383 mA
0.932 Lambda / -0.398 mA
0.930 Lambda / -0.414 mA
0.925 Lambda / -0.441 mA
0.928 Lambda / -0.426 mA
0.928 Lambda / -0.426 mA
0.913 Lambda / -0.516 mA
0.924 Lambda / -0.453 mA
0.915 Lambda / -0.504 mA
0.904 Lambda / -0.574 mA
0.907 Lambda / -0.555 mA
0.905 Lambda / -0.570 mA
0.898 Lambda / -0.613 mA
0.898 Lambda / -0.613 mA
0.909 Lambda / -0.543 mA
0.920 Lambda / -0.477 mA
0.896 Lambda / -0.641 mA
0.908 Lambda / -0.547 mA
0.907 Lambda / -0.555 mA
0.895 Lambda / -0.645 mA
0.874 Lambda / -0.816 mA
0.845 Lambda / -1.059 mA
0.833 Lambda / -1.152 mA
0.833 Lambda / -1.160 mA
0.814 Lambda / -1.309 mA
0.815 Lambda / -1.297 mA
0.814 Lambda / -1.309 mA
0.804 Lambda / -1.398 mA
0.798 Lambda / -1.438 mA
0.792 Lambda / -1.496 mA
0.809 Lambda / -1.352 mA
0.805 Lambda / -1.387 mA
0.803 Lambda / -1.398 mA
0.797 Lambda / -1.449 mA
0.796 Lambda / -1.457 mA
0.781 Lambda / -1.590 mA
0.787 Lambda / -1.535 mA
0.792 Lambda / -1.496 mA
0.801 Lambda / -1.422 mA
0.797 Lambda / -1.449 mA
0.791 Lambda / -1.500 mA
0.785 Lambda / -1.555 mA
0.786 Lambda / -1.543 mA
0.792 Lambda / -1.492 mA
0.784 Lambda / -1.563 mA
0.780 Lambda / -1.602 mA

Thats from 2500rpm to redline.

I guess i'm confused when Tony said .9 is too lean but now it seems to be fine. Pitch I dont see anything that looks dangerous except I wouldnt run that lean up top but thats me.

If you want to know some good channels to log take a look at logs like this. It shows a tuned car and a stock car on the same log and it shows the channels that you may want to log...

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2qLNaD2PEmkZG41NlRMLV83Nzg/view

There are also a few GIAC, REVO and APR logs floating around here. What you will see is that every tuner has a slightly different AFR profile. Tony's is the only one i have seen that lean up top but that doesnt mean I was "questioning him" but rather I was questioning the inconsistency between his previous statement indicating that .9 was far too lean. That seemed inconsistent but whatever. No big deal. Now it is fine to run it. And, quite frankly, if you log your EGTs and they look fine, I think there is nothing to worry about assuming he did not do anything to desensitize the knock sensors (which there is nothing to say that he did do that. your timing looks just fine. not overly aggressive.)

Mike

[Tony@EPL]

Mike,

Where did I say my tune is running .9 at redline?


We do run in the mid-higher .8X's on our stage one files. On our shop car with an external egt prob we did not find any reduction in temperatures running richer then that. On our CA 91 file and our stage 2 file's we are down in the .82-3 ran

2 things are clear Mike.

1. You dont like me/EPL and you often make it a point to try to discredit.
2. You dont understand engine control on these cars.

Feel free to respond, but Im moving on... this is not a productive exchange.

[bhvrdr]

Mike,

Where did I say my tune is running .9 at redline?



2 things are clear Mike.

1. You dont like me/EPL and you often make it a point to try to discredit.
2. You dont understand engine control on these cars.

Feel free to respond, but Im moving on... this is not a productive exchange.

Tony,

Please dont take any of my exchanges as personal attacks at all. I can question inconsistencies without being personal at all. I dont have anything against EPL at all. You may not know this but I contacted your shop before your tune was even ready on the B8.5 to consider getting your tune.

The more we question logs and the more tuners like yourself respond in an educating manner about why you run things a certain way than the more we all learn about this platform. Theres no need to get defensive. If you feel I am not understanding something, please just let me know what I should understand.

I do understand that the car will enrich as it sees increased in EGTs or knock, etc. The stock car will do this and tuned cars will do this (assuming the tuners have not desensitized any factory safeties.)

Apparently the stock car will enrichen up to .80 or even richer at redline while running less boost and less timing than an EPL car. I do understand that. Anyways, no harmful intent.

Mike

[Tony@EPL]

So the blocks I logged were:

G061 and G062
Oxygen sensor bank 1 sensor 2 (jump sensor)
Oxygen sensor bank 2 sensor 2 (jump sensor)

Looking at this now I think I logged the wrong thing. This is the secondary O2 which is after the cat and may have impacted the values? This was my first time logging with VCDS so it looks like what I wanted when I was checking boxes before the runs. Sorry if this makes the data somewhat useless. I can try to barrow the cable again. Which groups should I be logging for the most accurate A/F values?


Lambda probes actual bank 1 and Lambda probes actual bank 2 (or similar). I think they're in the 220's groups range off the top of my head.

[AZT]

Mike,

Where did I say my tune is running .9 at redline?



I think this was based on PitchS4's log of ~0.9 near redline (if it was logged correctly). I've seen only a few different stock logs (without a piggyback) but they were consistent in showing enrichment to ~0.8 up top. I think another tuner once explained this as an EGT component 'protection' that enrichens the base air/fuel map once calculated EGT thresholds are crossed - but can't seem to find the thread.

[Acejam]

http://i.imgur.com/uyEj5Td.jpg

[theswoleguy]

These seem awesome, any update on S-tronic tuning? Being a '15 I am leaving considerable power on the table stuck at 6300 :/

[PitchS4]

Cool I can log with those next time and only those groups to get more data points so it's more accurate. I assume the secondary sensors are narrowband which would have an affect on the numbers.

FYI this was 93 octane

[JuniorN316]

I'm having a hard time in searching for the answer but how do I get logs like this?
What cable/software do I need?

[AudBoost]

I'm having a hard time in searching for the answer but how do I get logs like this?
What cable/software do I need?

Ross-Tech VCDS: http://www.ross-tech.com/vag-com/index.html
and refer to this thread for how to log: http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/611658-How-To-VCDS-Performance-Logging

[RynoS4]

I really need to get one of those vagcom cables.

For a second opinion I installed my stage2 93 oct EPL tune this weekend. Install took minutes after the pulley was on of course! lol. Like OP drivability is just as smooth as stock, no hesitations or burps and pulls hard all the way to redline now. Stock clutch still happy as well!

And the best part saved myself a 1000km round trip to install the tune. Love flash at home.

[IanCH]

How was actual boost pulled in this application? can VAG-COM read actual boost?

[AudBoost]

^^Yes it can read the sensor in the manifold but the boost reading is in hPa so PSI needs to be calculated. Since the logs can be opened in Excel it's pretty easy to convert. You just need to find the Ambient air pressure before you begin logging.

From the logging thread I posted earlier:


Intake manifold pressure; absolute (hPa): This is the actual amount of pressure in the manifold where the specified is the requested. So, like the specified value, it needs to be converted to PSI, and subtract the ambient pressure. The amount of actual boost will depend on the size of the pulley, and losses due to belt slippage or leakage, environmental conditions, elevation, etc.
Actual boost= (Intake manifold pressure; absolute hPa) – (Ambient air pressure kPa x 10) x 0.014503774
*A stock car will see boost in the 10-11 PSI range, but it will bleed off at higher RPM's.
*A stage 1 car will see boost in the 12 PSI range, but it should not bleed off at higher RPM's
*Stage 2 cars can see as much as 16-17 PSI. I have seen a max of 15 PSI, but that is in really high DA's and we're at about 600 ft. above see level (hotter/less dense air will make slightly less boost).

[Tuned4Rings]

I was running stage 1 for about a month then went stage 2 and EPL has always answered any questions and worked with me on anything I needed and they answer quickly. Have had no problems and enjoying every minute driving my EPL stage 2 tune, they even did a update for the ColdFront systems people are running. When they release the DSG tune this car will be where it should have been from the factory. @tony I did notice when I get to higher RPM's my car seems to spit on lower gears any ideas? I do plan on data logging with my vagcom just have not had a chance yet.

[shoe3k]

@tony I did notice when I get to higher RPM's my car seems to spit on lower gears any ideas? I do plan on data logging with my vagcom just have not had a chance yet.

What did you mean spit on lower gears?

[jimrobbington]

What did you mean spit on lower gears?
Right?

[jimrobbington]

Ill do $749 on stage 1 files for the rest of the day if anyone would like this same tune!

Now that's a deal! What is the normal full price for stage 1 with the cable? What does stage 1 include? I have shitty 91 oct, so i would need a 91 file. But it would also be nice to have a 93 file for when I'm mixing a few gallons of e85. It would also then be nice to be able to add a full e85 tune when it becomes available.

When switching between tunes, how is this process? Still require you hook up a laptop, or is there a way to switch on the fly so to speak?

[PitchS4]

As far as I know you would need to connect your laptop. I wouldn't switch maps for just mixing some different gas in the ECU can adapt for that.

[Tuned4Rings]

In 3rd gear when I get around 4500 RPM my car seems to die, and exhaust starts to just sputter, but when I shift it is fine. Should Have time to get some logging done this weekend hopefully will find what it is.

[Snakeshot]

Now that's a deal! What is the normal full price for stage 1 with the cable? What does stage 1 include? I have shitty 91 oct, so i would need a 91 file. But it would also be nice to have a 93 file for when I'm mixing a few gallons of e85. It would also then be nice to be able to add a full e85 tune when it becomes available.

When switching between tunes, how is this process? Still require you hook up a laptop, or is there a way to switch on the fly so to speak?

I was told that "The tune works well with 91 and takes advantage of 93 octane as well with additional timing without having to switch software."

Also, they do not have the capability of switching between programs.

[jimrobbington]

I was told that "The tune works well with 91 and takes advantage of 93 octane as well with additional timing without having to switch software."

Also, they do not have the capability of switching between programs.
Oh snap. So to switch tunes, you would have to flash each time?

[PitchS4]

Oh snap. So to switch tunes, you would have to flash each time?

Your think you have a different problem with EPL's product then you do. Your actual problem is they don't have an e85 tune. Adding e85 to 91 and running a 93 tune doesn't make any sense.

[jimrobbington]

Your think you have a different problem with EPL's product then you do. Your actual problem is they don't have an e85 tune. Adding e85 to 91 and running a 93 tune doesn't make any sense.
I thought i saw a thread where they were doing e85 testing? That's not necessarily my problem. Anyone wanting a 100 oct race file would have the same need