View Full Version : APR stage 2 issue this morning
So I noticed my car felt much slower today then usual. I have an analog boost tap to my P3 gauge so I switched it over to read boost. The car would boost up to its normal 15psi but immediately drop to 10.1-10.5 No matter what gear I was in and usually 5th above 110mph Im seeing 15.5lbs of boost. It felt like the bypass was opening right away. Like it would open after 4k RPM. In 1st and 2nd it would jump to 15 and then drop to 9.7.
Its a nice cool morning about 62F and not particularly very humid. Any ideas here guys?
doug97gxe
06-05-2015, 06:31 AM
i would contact APR
schirm
06-05-2015, 06:37 AM
Try switching the maps to make sure you are in the right map. Sounds like you are in stock mode.
Try switching the maps to make sure you are in the right map. Sounds like you are in stock mode.
I didnt get Map switching. I only wanted the pulley and tune. But then again I did use Cruise control the other day. How would I know if I was accidentally given map switching?
doug97gxe
06-05-2015, 06:42 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5oN-p5eKd8
Ek9max
06-05-2015, 06:45 AM
So I noticed my car felt much slower today then usual. I have an analog boost tap to my P3 gauge so I switched it over to read boost. The car would boost up to its normal 15psi but immediately drop to 10.1-10.5 No matter what gear I was in and usually 5th above 110mph Im seeing 15.5lbs of boost. It felt like the bypass was opening right away. Like it would open after 4k RPM. In 1st and 2nd it would jump to 15 and then drop to 9.7.
Its a nice cool morning about 62F and not particularly very humid. Any ideas here guys?
It feels like my stage 2 does this too. I didn't have s boost gauge installed yet though. But the other day after sitting in traffic for a while. A stock mk7 gti (not even a golfR) kept up with me really well.
I thought I was just heat soaked. I got a boost gauge coming to me next week.
schirm
06-05-2015, 06:46 AM
The car cant be on to switch maps, so if you used CC while driving shouldn't change anything. If the APR dealer is close by I would just go over to see if somehow it switched itself back into stock mode.
drob23
06-05-2015, 07:23 AM
Would be good to log so you can see what the bypass valve RFP_AV is doing. Also, log your knock sensors to see if bad gas is affecting anything. The ECM will open the bypass if the timing pull is significant.
SteveYem
06-05-2015, 07:33 AM
Install CW piggyback, problem solved.
I keeeeed, I keeeeeed
Seriously though, I have no input but hope you get it figured out.
Where is Arin or Sean when you need him?
AudBoost
06-05-2015, 07:46 AM
Have you tried resetting the car? It can be done via VagCom or it can be done by disconnecting the negative battery terminal for about an hour or sometimes a bit longer.
OldSport//
06-05-2015, 08:55 AM
Good reason to buy a boost gauge I suppose, thanks for sharing and hoping you get this figured out soon.
bhvrdr
06-05-2015, 09:37 AM
Would be good to log so you can see what the bypass valve RFP_AV is doing. Also, log your knock sensors to see if bad gas is affecting anything. The ECM will open the bypass if the timing pull is significant.
I would second exactly this advice. I would only suggest to add EGTs to this log. Even APR will have problems giving you advice if they dont have any logs to see what is going on. Since this is roots type SC you are not likely having boost leaks but are likely having your bypass valve open. The question is why? Is there a problem with EGTs, misifires, or knock or event the bypass valve itself? Something is causing the car to reduce boost
Mike
jran76
06-05-2015, 10:11 AM
I would second exactly this advice. I would only suggest to add EGTs to this log. Even APR will have problems giving you advice if they dont have any logs to see what is going on. Since this is roots type SC you are not likely having boost leaks but are likely having your bypass valve open. The question is why? Is there a problem with EGTs, misifires, or knock or event the bypass valve itself? Something is causing the car to reduce boost
Mike
Agreed. The only way to troubleshoot any problem is with data. Could be literally hundreds of things, and a diagnostic scan and logging is the only way to know what is going on outside of speculation.
Problem is I dont have a Vag com. If its bad gas then its the new Shell Nitro+ stuff cause thats what I just filled with.
If anyone has a Vagcom in the boroughs or Westchester area I would love to have a log done. Im worried about this.
I can check exhaust temps from the P3 gauge though
bhvrdr
06-05-2015, 05:05 PM
www.maptive.com/ver3/VCDS_Locator
Back in the day there was the VagCom Locator which was a national database in which u could basically be in any city in america and find a persons house to stop by and use their vagcom with the understanding you'll be arriving with a six pack. The site got hacked but not sure if this one may work for you.
They are worth their weight in gold though and you seem like an enthusiast so this may be the right time to buy one.
Mike
Well, the P3 Gauge measures REQUESTED boost (from the ECU) unless you have an actual wet line boost tap that will give you accurate values.
If it is requesting values in that range, I would assume you are set to the correct profile. As for program switching, you have a B8 so yes you do have it.. where did you get flashed?
bhvrdr
06-05-2015, 08:56 PM
Well, the P3 Gauge measures REQUESTED boost (from the ECU) unless you have an actual wet line boost tap that will give you accurate values.
If it is requesting values in that range, I would assume you are set to the correct profile. As for program switching, you have a B8 so yes you do have it.. where did you get flashed?
You only have program switching if you pay for more than one program.
The P3 should still be measuring "actual boost", its just that it is the actual boost channel as measured by the MAP as opposed to hooking up an actual mechanical boost/vacuum pressure line to the manifold (although that option is available).
Mike
I have a boost tap so I read actual boost not boost off of the ecu
Wow my car this morning acted tuned and stock. When I was stock I never boosted above 10.5lbs now it will boost to 14-15 but then bypass opens like stock at 5500 RPM and bleed boost down to 9.1
Im getting really upset about this.
bhvrdr
06-06-2015, 10:33 AM
Yeah you really need to get some logs. It could be any of dozens of things but the logs will help you figure it out. It could be something simple or something more serious that is causing the car to reduce boost so logging is going to help you out there. It could be anything from bad gas, bad fueling part or ignition part, bad bpv, or who knows, maybe even belt slip but gotta get those logs. Good luck. If you need any assist getting the right logs let us know.
Mike
OldSport//
06-06-2015, 11:13 AM
You might also be able to take logs with an obdii dongle and either the torque app (android) or one of the iPhone apps that comes with the iPhone compatible dongles. Not sure if that will give you what you need though, but cheaper than buying a vagcom.
Yeah you really need to get some logs. It could be any of dozens of things but the logs will help you figure it out. It could be something simple or something more serious that is causing the car to reduce boost so logging is going to help you out there. It could be anything from bad gas, bad fueling part or ignition part, bad bpv, or who knows, maybe even belt slip but gotta get those logs. Good luck. If you need any assist getting the right logs let us know.
Mike
how would i know belt slip?
bhvrdr
06-06-2015, 11:35 AM
With belt slip you would see decreases in boost in places where you should be seeing increases. Sometimes you can hear it slip, sometimes you can't. You can also take a rag and see if there is belt dust from it slipping. The important way to know would be taking logs and if you were having no knock activity that could point to it also. If you are logging and seeing knock and bpv opening than its not slip.
Mike
With belt slip you would see decreases in boost in places where you should be seeing increases. Sometimes you can hear it slip, sometimes you can't. You can also take a rag and see if there is belt dust from it slipping. The important way to know would be taking logs and if you were having no knock activity that could point to it also. If you are logging and seeing knock and bpv opening than its not slip.
Mike
Its just too simlar to stock operation right now. I dont think its slip I believe its something causeing BPV to open at the exact same place it used to open when stock (right around 5500 RPM)
And why hasnt anyone from APR chimed in on here yet? @Arin @Sean
blackfunk
06-06-2015, 04:20 PM
Not trying to be an ass here, but have you reached out to them? I've seen others suggest that you post up some logs so that they can assist. Doing so will get you help right away.
OK so I paid attention to the Ign timing on my P3 gauge today and watched my RPMs. The number shows between 6-8 until I hit the point where the car is dropping boost and then that number hits 12-14.
Anyone know what this means? I dont know what timing is.
bhvrdr
06-06-2015, 04:34 PM
That's low timing if that is as high as it goes. You really can't diagnose this with a p3 guage. Not to be a broken record but no one including Apr can help much without logs.
Mike
That's low timing if that is as high as it goes. You really can't diagnose this with a p3 guage. Not to be a broken record but no one including Apr can help much without logs.
Mike
Ok. Ill look into seeing if anyuone I know has a Vagcom. Ill start with my neighbor that has a GTI all loaded up.
Sean@APR
06-07-2015, 04:23 AM
I'm in Portland,Or and I think Arin is prepping for fastivus.
Get some logs and call our tech support,, they'll get you figured out.
Our forum presence is not meant to be primary tech support. We do it to help out the community, but it's always on a time available, best effort basis.
I'm in Portland,Or and I think Arin is prepping for fastivus.
Get some logs and call our tech support,, they'll get you figured out.
Our forum presence is not meant to be primary tech support. We do it to help out the community, but it's always on a time available, best effort basis.
Thanks Sean. Ill do my best to get some logging done. My neighbor will have a Vagcom this Friday so I will borrow it. I dont know how to use the software so I hope its self explanatory as far as logging.
Rocket Tech
06-07-2015, 09:22 AM
Install CW piggyback, problem solved.
I keeeeed, I keeeeeed
Seriously though, I have no input but hope you get it figured out.
Env - really hope you get your issue sorted out.
I've been following this thread as well as the CW thread. It's ironic there hasn't been much input from the CW critics regarding this issue here. Here's a classic example of the typical owner - no access to logging or dyno info. User has a problem and the solution is to contact the vendor. Vendor is willing to help - soon as they see some logs - whut? I thought these were backed by years and thousands of miles of r&d. Driving behavior is well beyond the "hesitation" CW users have reported and without timing logs no one knows exactly how much timing or detonation this engine may be seeing. I think in this particular case there's some initial info that suggests the info isn't pulling back on ridiculous timing but someone without a P3 wouldn't even know. What's with the double standards here? If anything, this could be a more serious condition since these tunes are so perfected that any abnormal behavior should be extremely suspect. Not saying that's the case here, but for someone who doesn't have data capability seems the only prudent thing would be to bring it back to whoever did the flash and have it brought back to stock. I don't know if Env has gone back to the installer for troubleshooting but seems hit or miss with local vendors that they actually have any troubleshooting capability beyond "my computer says you got the flash you were supposed to get".
Intrepid One
06-07-2015, 03:00 PM
Good lord, I better not have any issues as I have absolutely no access to Vag com or logs or anything else.My solution is to drive almost 2 hours to the dealer that installed it..Hmmm, does the Original poster have the updated 3.0 version??
Sean@APR
06-07-2015, 05:38 PM
Env - really hope you get your issue sorted out.
I've been following this thread as well as the CW thread. It's ironic there hasn't been much input from the CW critics regarding this issue here. Here's a classic example of the typical owner - no access to logging or dyno info. User has a problem and the solution is to contact the vendor. Vendor is willing to help - soon as they see some logs - whut? I thought these were backed by years and thousands of miles of r&d. Driving behavior is well beyond the "hesitation" CW users have reported and without timing logs no one knows exactly how much timing or detonation this engine may be seeing. I think in this particular case there's some initial info that suggests the info isn't pulling back on ridiculous timing but someone without a P3 wouldn't even know. What's with the double standards here? If anything, this could be a more serious condition since these tunes are so perfected that any abnormal behavior should be extremely suspect. Not saying that's the case here, but for someone who doesn't have data capability seems the only prudent thing would be to bring it back to whoever did the flash and have it brought back to stock. I don't know if Env has gone back to the installer for troubleshooting but seems hit or miss with local vendors that they actually have any troubleshooting capability beyond "my computer says you got the flash you were supposed to get".
We put a lot of effort into training our dealers. Most of them come to Alabama at least once a year and spend several days in training classes that we put on.
The reason we ask for logs is that these things are very thoroughly tested. If a car isn't behaving as it should, our tech guys will go through a process first of making sure that the customer has what they're supposed to. Then, they go through normal issues (are you on the right program, do you have the right fuel, etc..). After that, there isn't much that can be done without logs. It's just shooting in the dark without them.
In my personal opinion, people shouldn't be modifying their cars without either a nearby dealer that they trust or owning a logging device of some sort. We don't charge for the support (which 90%+ of the time is due to an issue with the car that we had nothing to do with) and are happy to help. The only thing we ask is the data to know exactly what's going on.
Update, issue fixed.
Today I went over to my parents house as they have a garage and I needed to remove my front bumper to replace my HID fog light ballasts and bulbs with error deletes. As I got in there I decided I would take my air box off and clean my air filter. I bought a K&N recharge kit and got to work. Long story short, i cleaned and oiled my AWE air filter according to all the instructions. Also noticed that little "snow shield" fine grade screening stuff had what looked like tons of dryer lint in it. Used my air compressor to blow that stuff out and get it clean as new. Put everything back together and did a light detail on the car.
On the way home with the wife once I got to operating temps and the car is back! Boosted to 14 and climbed and climbed all the way to 15.6 to redline. Every gear. Did it again later on and all is well again. Im pretty sure that AWE filter has not been oiled in 30k+ miles last time I just cleaned it with a degreaser but didnt have oil. Wonder if the car was suffocating?
It could just be a coincidence too.
Sean@APR
06-07-2015, 11:38 PM
Update, issue fixed.
Today I went over to my parents house as they have a garage and I needed to remove my front bumper to replace my HID fog light ballasts and bulbs with error deletes. As I got in there I decided I would take my air box off and clean my air filter. I bought a K&N recharge kit and got to work. Long story short, i cleaned and oiled my AWE air filter according to all the instructions. Also noticed that little "snow shield" fine grade screening stuff had what looked like tons of dryer lint in it. Used my air compressor to blow that stuff out and get it clean as new. Put everything back together and did a light detail on the car.
On the way home with the wife once I got to operating temps and the car is back! Boosted to 14 and climbed and climbed all the way to 15.6 to redline. Every gear. Did it again later on and all is well again. Im pretty sure that AWE filter has not been oiled in 30k+ miles last time I just cleaned it with a degreaser but didnt have oil. Wonder if the car was suffocating?
It could just be a coincidence too.
Sounds like a winner. A log of mass air flow would have shown this clear as day. Glad you resolve it!
Pulling hard again today. Everybody should check that little screen area if you are running AWE or another closed airbox intake. And keep these filters clean. Car feels great.
drob23
06-08-2015, 06:56 AM
It's surprising that cleaning your filter/snow screen fixed your issue since it surfaced after the update. I also have a pretty dirty roc euro filter...hmmm....
will13k7
06-08-2015, 07:07 AM
nice find op!
I waited a year before cleaning my filter, I think that was too long, I noticed a nice jump of power and responsiveness after putting a clean filter on (butt dyno not expecting to feel any difference, so not placebo). this car is more sensitive than my past cars have been to dirty filters.
eurotic
06-08-2015, 07:32 AM
Sounds like a winner. A log of mass air flow would have shown this clear as day. Glad you resolve it!
Hey Sean, can you clarify what one would see that would tell them the issue? I'm new to tuning and logging and am simply curious what I would be looking for.
Thanks,
Shawn
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
It's surprising that cleaning your filter/snow screen fixed your issue since it surfaced after the update. I also have a pretty dirty roc euro filter...hmmm....
I havent had the V3 update done yet
drob23
06-08-2015, 09:40 AM
Hmm, so maybe if the calculated MAF is below expected, the ECM goes out of charge mode and bleeds off boost.
bhvrdr
06-08-2015, 11:47 AM
Hmm, so maybe if the calculated MAF is below expected, the ECM goes out of charge mode and bleeds off boost.
Actually if calculated maf or actual boost was below requested the bpv should have been staying open. The car would think it is at altitude. With a clogged filter though that could technically cause reduced boost even with the bpv open although I've never seen a filter that clogged but who knows. Maybe he had it really really clogged.
Mike
Edit: my mistake. I meant Bpv stays closed not open
drob23
06-08-2015, 12:00 PM
Actually if calculated maf or actual boost was below requested the bpv should have been staying open. The car would think it is at altitude. With a clogged filter though that could technically cause reduced boost even with the bpv open although I've never seen a filter that clogged but who knows. Maybe he had it really really clogged.
Mike
I was speaking more in terms of entering some kind of fault mode. Under low throttle conditions, the pressure reading at the intake (before throttle) should be correct even with a clogged filter. The ECM should know it's not at altitude. There is an ambient pressure signal in VCDS.
And to what you said, if the actual boost is below the requested, then the bypass valve should stay closed while in charge mode. I don't see why you say it should be open?
bhvrdr
06-08-2015, 12:06 PM
I was speaking more in terms of entering some kind of fault mode. Under low throttle conditions, the pressure reading at the intake (before throttle) should be correct even with a clogged filter. The ECM should know it's not at altitude. There is an ambient pressure signal in VCDS.
And to what you said, if the actual boost is below the requested, then the bypass valve should stay closed while in charge mode. I don't see why you say it should be open?
I'm sorry yes. That was what iI was meaning to say. It should have been staying closed and not bleeding off boost. If the car is under boosting it will close the bpv. With a clogged filter though it is possible it still wasn't making boost I guess. That's a lot of restriction though
Mike