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View Full Version : 3.2L missing compression cylinders 1 and 2



doctorul_doc
05-08-2015, 12:52 PM
Oi there, I did not see any tread to cover my problem (didn't check every single one tho) and hope some with previous experience can give me an input or directions on 2008 B7 A4 3.2L conv tiptronic. As of right now, engine failed compression test on cylinders 1 and 2, having only 40Psi each. What I noticed is that when blow compressed air in 2, it comes out to the 1 and vice versa. Cam shaft indicate that one of them have valves closed and the other one open. No leakage on any other cylinders, only 1 and 2. I am in proses to get all needed tools to remove right cylinder head and inspect why does that. I hope is just a blown gasket but I am afraid that it could be worse and having a cracked head. Not there yet to find out the cause of this but tracing back on how all this start, I can say that for last few months start loosing coolant without finding the source. Probably burned out somewhere. I was adding about one litter a week. Then, last month changed oil and 2 weeks later low level light came on. Did not find any coolant in oil at oil change. Reading all kinds of posts here, told to myself that I have a bad sensor and will change it at next oil change. Now I think that probably I have a restriction somewhere that lead to missing compression. Anyway, checking the oil level was at max level so I wasn't worry. Two weeks later it starts running rough and throwing misfiring codes on cylinder 1 and sometime on 1 and 2. Reading more forums, I was thinking at carbon deposit and didn't worry too much till it start shaking badly only when accelerate. Soon after that had a rough idle and decided to do basic checks when I found the leak. Now...anything can be fixed but I need to find the source of problem before I put another head gasket and run it again. I did not have abnormal engine temperature, always normal. I took radiator out and flush it. Noticed that hose (coming from water pump)on passenger lower side of radiator had some milky fluid when was disconnected, but not the driver side which had clear pink coolant. Thinking here that water pump might be at fault. I bought a new pump and thermostat to replace (not in because I am still waiting on some tools). I got the timing chain tool set and installed on top of cams which means timing is wright. Didn't install the crank pin lock yet because I do not really know where it goes.
What should I expect and what else do I need to check in order to find the cause of this failure. I might have a problem at the oil flow also and the oil level warning to be true?

vacsimile
05-09-2015, 07:42 AM
It just sounds like a blown head gasket. Inspect the head when you get it off, and if you are unsure take it to a machine shop.

Also, do yourself a favor and remove the engine, then remove the cylinder head. You can do it in the car but messing with the chain tensioner and cam adjuster is a serious PITA. With the engine out you can also re-seal the lower timing chain cover which is prone to leak. Good luck.

doctorul_doc
05-11-2015, 12:55 PM
How hard or how far am I to pull entire engine out? I took bumper off and remover radiator. Car is still on its own wheels and have AC still together with Freon in it, having no proper disposal options. Searching and documenting myself on forum, it appear that all head work and timing chain can be done with engine mounted. Car is close to 80K miles. Should I really take care of lower timing chain cover? Still waiting on triple square tool set... Would any auto shop who does rebuilds be able to check head for cracks and warpage or must be Audi specialized?
It is any way to check oil pump functionality? Wonder why I was getting the low oil level warning lately. Thinking that I might still have that warning after sensor replacement and I will have to open engine again for replacement. I got no more room in garage because I already have an impala to rebuild.

vacsimile
05-11-2015, 05:36 PM
You can totally pull the heads off in the car, but it's way more of a PITA than removing the engine first, IMO. Granted, I also work at a shop and remove the engine and transmission as one piece from the bottom. I guess when I suggested removing the engine I wasn't really thinking about it all the way from the DIY standpoint, sorry about that. In your case it probably is easier to do it in the car. I would only suggest doing the lower cover if you had the engine out already. If you still want to remove the engine, you will need to discharge the A/C and remove the entire lock carrier/core support, disconnect the engine harness from the body, remove the P/S pump, remove the starter, lower the subframe, disconnect the cats, etc.

There are special tools required in addition to the ones you have. It is possible to do it without them as long as you can counter-hold the camshaft adjusters while removing/tightening the big 12mm triple square bolts.

Any shop that works on German cylinder heads should be able to help you.

Are you getting an oil level (yellow) or oil pressure (red) warning? If it is just oil level, which is what I suspect, then I imagine you're burning oil from a blown head gasket. When the light turns on do you check the oil? Is it low? If so, the sensor is doing its job.

Good luck with the garage situation.

doctorul_doc
05-12-2015, 07:29 AM
Thank you for clarification. I think I will keep it in. It sounds to be too much for the problem that I have and don't want to create more problems along the way unless I really have to take engine out for major work or to replace something behind.
For the timing chain, I have a tool set that was posted here somewhere and have what I need to hold the cams adjusters while unbolt the 12mm.
The oil level was flashing yellow and I did check level continuously and motor temperature. All were normal. Just as precaution, I add more oil to keep it at max level and did not noticed any drop in level. Warning was coming back about 30 miles after opening the hood to reset it and to double check level. Strange is that all this oil warning happened soon after oil change. I used 5W40 Castrol. This is first oil change since I have this car. I am the second owner and I could tell that some previously work was done at engine because not all harnesses are clipped and some bolts have light scratches. Hope those are from regular maintenance. Car was running great for a few months till now.

doctorul_doc
05-15-2015, 06:36 AM
I would add an image but apparently I can't...missing upload attach button. I am almost out with the cylinder head but in meantime I replaced water pump and thermostat. I stop here because I am not sure everything is right on cooling system. When thermostat was out, I noticed that inside on right side toward water pump, cooling was pink while whatever is coming from back hose from back side of engine was kind of chocolate milk color. I remember that when radiator was removed, the bottom fat hose on passenger side that goes toward the thermostat was chocolate milk color also. I try to blow on that fat hose to clear it and is "clogged". Or at least air does not go anywhere and I wonder if I should take it off to check or that is normal. I am just thinking that once is off, I need new gasket and I have no clue what that is to be able to buy the gasket. Too bad I am not able to insert images. This thing is located between water pump and alternator and is a fat hose attached to a black plastic "thing" mounted with 6 bolts.

doctorul_doc
05-15-2015, 10:42 AM
Just find out how to add images. So...what is that black plastic thing with tube attached to the hose and is located right underneath thermostat? Should that be blocked or there is a problem?http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/15/07a9442635efbfc59ab19070e23b323e.jpg


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vacsimile
05-15-2015, 08:27 PM
I'm not sure about blowing air up into it, but if you want to remove it there is a gasket under it and can be purchased here (http://www.ecstuning.com/ES280800/), or lots of other places on the net.

Chocolate milk looking coolant usually means oil mixed in, maybe from the head gasket being blown or maybe from the oil cooler or radiator having internal damage. The oil cooler is on the bottom left side of the engine and it has two medium sized coolant hoses going to it. Maybe pull those hoses off and see what the coolant looks like there.

doctorul_doc
05-15-2015, 10:27 PM
Hey Vacsimile, thank you for sticking with me and helping me out. I took the head off and found blown gasket. I will post some pics tomorrow to ask opinion if head could be damaged where the gasket failed. I removed that hose and found old chocolate colored deposit and somehow rusted bolts which means that thermostat was closed all the time and that's why cylinder 1, (the closest one to thermostat) got to hot. I know that when that big fat hose was removed, no pink coolant came out because having the thermostat closed, was acting like a dead end, full with air and coolant could not travel upward from radiator toward thermostat.


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vacsimile
05-16-2015, 05:58 AM
No problem man... You'll need to check straightness of the head and the block with a straight edge. If you don't have one a machine shop can check the head for you, and if it's ok I would say the block is probably ok too as the heads usually warp first when overheated.

As for all the chocolate mass, you need to find the source and flush all that gunk out, as it will clog your heater core and radiator if you don't.

doctorul_doc
05-16-2015, 10:39 AM
Any machine shop can do that or must be specialized on Audi? Based on those pics, do you think I can reuse the head or is busted? Another question... can timing chain tensioner be reused or need replaced?http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/16/1be9f8df4b3bf7fc1fc9286375c3109b.jpghttp://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/16/44994529325d0202b11f29e1c1fa3c5f.jpghttp://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/16/bcfa42c33884401dd88f96a3a9521b1d.jpg


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doctorul_doc
05-16-2015, 03:07 PM
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/16/2870dd87fbd684f9bb30a758efc415b3.jpg
Is this cleaning acceptable or do I need to take all those marks out? That is where the gasket was blown. I am affraid that small wall between cylinders will be too low.


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vacsimile
05-16-2015, 03:34 PM
It's hard to say without being able to feel it, honestly. You need to measure it. Any machine shop can measure the straightness of the head for you, but if you are looking for a rebuild you will need to take it to a machine shop that works on German engines. Also be sure to clean all the carbon from the intake valves while you have the head off... And on the other head still in the car.

Oh and yes it's ok to reuse the chain tensioners, granted they aren't damaged or anything.

doctorul_doc
05-16-2015, 04:14 PM
I should thank you again for your time to write back. I was already working on intake carbon deposit. As far as the straightness, my smaller gauge is 004 and can not tuck it underneat the straight edge on any point of cylinder head. I guess I am still good with it. I will check with a shop anyway to make sure


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doctorul_doc
06-13-2015, 01:50 PM
I was away for one month and just got back home. Decided to rebuild the cylinder head for $200 and have at least one side straight because I will hate to take all engine out and send it to shop. Any posts with torque settings as Haynes manual just pretty much said "dude, you are a dumb, and this is too much for you to handle, therefore we will not give you any help and will strongly recommend to take it to a shop". And that did not helped at all. I got from ebay one oil level sensor and is slightly short than original. Would that still work?

vacsimile
06-14-2015, 06:46 AM
Maybe, but probably not. There's only one real way to find out and that's to try it. Which torque specs do you need?

doctorul_doc
06-14-2015, 06:56 AM
I guess that if sensor will not work, will cost me another oil change and a sensor. I am looking for specks on cylinder head. Most likely I will have to put it back together and replace seals and gaskets. I don't really trust that shop to put it together

vacsimile
06-16-2015, 08:09 AM
The head bolts are tightened in 3 stages, first 40nm, then 90 degrees then another 90 degrees. The sequence is the 4 inner bolts and then the 4 outer bolts in a diagonal sequence. The valve cover bolts are 9nm. The cam adjuster bolts are done in 3 stages, first 40nm, then 80nm, then 90 degrees. The upper timing chain covers bolts are 5nm plus 90 degrees, tightened in a circular pattern.

doctorul_doc
06-16-2015, 08:51 AM
That is awesome. Thank you again for info.I got the head back and they already put it together but I do not know what torque they used. I asked if that is RTV and they said that is something that they use to make gaskets on BMW. Do I play with the fire leaving it as is? Another thing...they used some blue solution over the valves, probably to seal them, and covered the injectors. Is that OK?

vacsimile
06-16-2015, 05:07 PM
I assume you are talking about the sealant used on the cam bridge/ladder... The top section of the cylinder head, after removing the valve cover? I would say leave it. If it starts leaking you will notice it and you can repair it in the car, no problem. I believe the spec for the cam ladder bolts is 8nm + 90 degrees and the bolts need to be replaced. I doubt this was done, but I'm not sure how much it really matters in the real world. BTW, all bolts that have a torque spec that involves torquing it so many degrees should be replaced.

Not sure about the blue stuff. For the injectors there is a teflon seal on the end of the injector that absolutely has to be replaced. It requires a set of special tools to replace. The kit can be found here: https://audi.snapon.com/SpecialToolsDetail.aspx?itemId=48350005

The entire kit isn't necessary. If you can find the individual pieces, the only ones that are totally necessary are T10133/5, /6, /7 and /8. Buy the new seals from the dealership to make sure they are the right ones. They will come in a kit that has the teflon seal, o-ring and plastic washer/spacer, and sometimes additional hardware.

doctorul_doc
06-17-2015, 05:28 AM
Since the blue stuff is over injectors, I wonder if they were removed while milling the head. If were removed, I doubt that seals were replaced. They would not had the time to order a new set because I dropped off on Saturday and pick it up on Monday. For confirmation, do you think this kit have all I need for injectors? http://www.ebay.com/itm/VW-Audi-FSI-Fuel-Injector-Service-Tool-Set-/261931659859?hash=item3cfc57f253&item=261931659859&vxp=mtr
The seal that I was talking about is not from the cover, is from the part that holds the cams and I doubt the bolts were replaced. He said that torque used for that was 25 (he didn't specify if nm or ft/pound).
I called him and he said that cam retaining bolts were reused. Do I really need to take them off and put new ones?

vacsimile
06-17-2015, 05:57 PM
Yes that kit appears to have all the pieces you will need for the injectors. And yes we are talking about the same part... The cam ladder has the bearings built in and is the top half of the cylinder head after you remove the plastic valve cover. Do you absolutely need to replace those bolts? Probably not. If you don't want to mess with it and it creates a problem later on down the road you can always repair it in the car (without having to remove the head I mean).

Edit: Did you say they milled the head?! So it was warped after all?

doctorul_doc
06-18-2015, 05:37 AM
You are right, I can deall with all that later if necesary after install. Easy access from top. I dont know if was warped but the scratches where the gasket blown were pretty ugly. The spark plugs from cylinders 1 and 2 got chiped and all that went between cylinders and made the scratches. It was overheated for sure. Only the right side and strange it didn't throw any warning codes. I should check on those sensors. All right side had the chocolate milky residue on hoses. Any advise on refilling the coolant to avoid prematurely overheating at start up?
I cleaned and light sand the engine block to take out the marks where the gasket blown. Not much to make a slope, just enough. I wanted to mill the head to have the piece of mind that at least one side is straight. If this fails, engine is going out and do it again on both sides if necessary.


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vacsimile
06-18-2015, 05:42 PM
So are the cylinder walls damaged too? What about the pistons?

As for the cooling system, obviously flush all that gunk out. It is probably in the radiator and heater core, too. I use a tool that pulls a vacuum on the cooling circuit and then fills the system, but if it is cost prohibitive for you then just fill the system thru the reservoir, start the engine and keep the reservoir full. It may be necessary to bleed the heater core. Not sure if your car has it or not but some have a hole in the one of the hoses that connects to the heater core pipes at the firewall. The hole is under the clamps. The idea is you pull the hose off the nipple enough to expose the hole and bleed the air out.

doctorul_doc
06-18-2015, 06:39 PM
No damage on pistons or walls. I did spin motor once by hand after I took the head off and all is good there. The scratches were between the cylinders, right where the head gasket failed. Not too deep either, I took them out with scotch brite and fine sand paper. I am doing mode on headlights also and I put the battery back on but remote wohld not lock/unlock. Do I need to reset the fobs? I wonder if it will recognise the key also when is time to start it.


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vacsimile
06-18-2015, 06:42 PM
Yeah they need to be re-synced is all. Turn the key on and then hold down the unlock button for a few seconds (with the same key) and it will re-sync.

doctorul_doc
06-23-2015, 06:27 AM
I finally got the car back together late last night. I even found the hose with breather from heater core to bleed coolant. That was a pain to slide it of. Replaced oil sensor and fill up fluids thinking to start it. I was expecting to see it starting right away but didn't happen. It crank it 3 times but no sign to try to start. I did had the battery removed for last 2 months. Do I need to reset anything or to re-teach something? I got my vag com the other day but was too late last night to hook it up and see if I found anything. I will take spark plugs out today and see if are wet after crank but I wonder if ignition system needs something in order to start it.

Edit
I will also check if I connect all sensors. I could possibly loose my mind. Will vag com tell me if something is not plugged in?

vacsimile
06-23-2015, 04:52 PM
Yeah you will have static (as opposed to intermittent/sporadic) faults stored for anything unplugged. Since you had the fuel rails off all the fuel pressure is gone and it will take a few cranks to get it started. That may be all it is. But yeah, definitely check for faults, clear them, attempt to start the car and scan it again. Good luck

doctorul_doc
06-23-2015, 04:54 PM
Just saved the long list of faults. Will clear and try again. Tx for reply.


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doctorul_doc
06-23-2015, 05:01 PM
Just saved the long list of faults. Will clear and try again. Tx for reply.


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doctorul_doc
06-23-2015, 07:56 PM
Ok now, one last question I hope: where do I send you the box of beer?
Reset all codes from when sensors were disconnected and sure enough it starts right away. Purged the coolant trought the heater hose hole and add some coolant later on after warming up. Temp gauge solid at middle and it purrs like a kitten. I could never get it running without the vag com from ross-tech. I got a few more others small errors to take care off but nothing serious.
What can I say "vacsimile", you are the only one who helped me from the begining of this project and gave me valued information. Thank you!


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vacsimile
06-23-2015, 08:29 PM
Haha right on man, glad it turned out alright. Kudos to you for doing the job yourself... That's not an easy job to do.