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View Full Version : T3/T4 vs GT series turbos.



DarkkstaR
09-17-2005, 08:40 AM
Serious discussion only.

My friend is CONVINCED that GT series turbos are just as good as T3/T4s if not better.

His Reasoning:
- Replacability - anything on a T3/T4 can be replaced cheap
- Price. 600 dollars for a new turbo
- Similar power output
- Similar turbo response/lag.
- GT series is a overpriced fad, better but not worth double the price

My reasoning:
- 15 year old technology is not comparable to 2 year old
- GT series, more reliable then T

I don't know what to think. Haven't looked at compressor maps yet, btu I want to run a 2871 and my friend is saying waste of money and to do a T3/T4 .50 trim .63 AR for 550 dollars instead, and that GT is way overpriced.

Keep this to FACTUAL discussion only please.

Thanks!

OutkastSL
09-17-2005, 08:55 AM
i think the cost effectiveness of the t3/t4 is awesome compared to the gt series turbos, but overall, if you got the money, i'd go with the gt series because of it's efficiency. the power curves are completely different for the t-series and the gt-series. But on a cost effective method, the t3/t4 "super" .50 trim is an awesome turbo especially if you purchase the ball bearing upgrade which i believe will be in the $700-800 range.

atp has some great info and had done some comparisons:
http://www.atpturbo.com/root/technicinfo/gtvst.htm
even greater info, dyno comparison:
http://www.atpturbo.com/root/turbopiping/dynodata/integragsr.htm

MR VTEC
09-17-2005, 10:40 AM
i believe a member here has a t3/t4 setup and they have there output numbers in their sig as well.
I'm sure they will chime in soon.
***subscribing to thread**

OutkastSL
09-17-2005, 10:54 AM
^^^
sn: k0mpres'd
2000 A4 1.8TQMS t3/t04e
268.3 awd hp
248.3 awd tq
(info from his sig)

great numbers for a stock exhaust and not fully tuned.

DarkkstaR
09-17-2005, 11:47 AM
Hmm. That gt vs t dyno is a crock of shit. What trim and ar? They leave too many details out and I call bs. 10psi on a 28rs making 300whp is crock when the t3/t4 makes 230. Small trim, big ar probably. atp bullshits marketing hard imo.

As for the t3/t4 setup kompresed has, i'd like some more details. What are the specs on the turbo, supporting mods, what boost, and how's the tuning? Whens it spool?

Thanks!

OutkastSL
09-17-2005, 12:22 PM
well, the t3/t4 turbo on that gsr is a regular rev hard/turbonetics turbo. i forget the trim but it really the smaller trim/ar. i think the super .50 trim is an awesome turbo and that it'll perform just as good as the gt28rs.

edit: dont forget, the test was on a integra gsr (not by any means similar to an a4) i've seen turbo'd gsr's hit 250 hp on 12lbs and tuned. they make more power with less boost. can't compare the boost levels from an integra to a a4.

DarkkstaR
09-17-2005, 01:01 PM
The difference in compression does allow for higher power with less boost, you are correct.

Do you feel a t3/t4 has the expandability of a 2871? When would the super .50 be maxed out, on our cars? 300whp? Also when do think it would spool with the correct supporting mods? (proper tune, exhaust)

OutkastSL
09-17-2005, 02:52 PM
on a gsr, i know the super .50 ball bearing spools around 3500rpm an full boost at 4000rpms, my friend runs 9.5:1 cr pistons. i heard rumors that the super .50 is good for 400-450hp at the front wheels. it's hard to determine on our cars, but i'm thinking 300awhp is highly possible fully tuned and running right. k0mpres'd car is almost there with his stock exhaust and partially tuned.

for software, i spoke to my friend that owns a shop. i mentioned that i wanted a safc for fuel tuning, but he mentioned that the greddy e-manage has basically the same amount of wiring but a lot more features. the emanage is a piggy back like the safc but it is 3d tunable for timing and fuel. if this works, this would be the most cost effective solution for software on a big turbo like the t3/t4 that has no software support. it goes for around $500

DarkkstaR
09-17-2005, 03:25 PM
E-manage is an awesome product.

Software is not an issue, I can completely modify my fuel/timing/boost maps myself directly to the eprom.

It is more or less a determination of:

- having a reasonable amount of lag, full spool before 3800 is preferred

- I'm shooting for at least 300whp, I'd like to be able to run roughly 350whp at a high boost setting just not daily

Not sure if this possible but that's my goal.

AB18
09-17-2005, 03:59 PM
I have a friend who ran 12.5 with his t3/t4. Has the timeslip to prove it. He tuned the thing in his garage too. His names david kercsh. Alot of you might know him.

OutkastSL
09-17-2005, 04:53 PM
darkstar, don't you have a tip tranny?

k0mpresd
09-17-2005, 05:26 PM
Originally posted by OutkastSL
^^^
sn: k0mpres'd
2000 A4 1.8TQMS t3/t04e
268.3 awd hp
248.3 awd tq
(info from his sig)

great numbers for a stock exhaust and not fully tuned.
hey..thats me [:D]

main reason i went w/ a t series instead of a gt was the price difference..

if you have the $$ to spend a gt is a great choice, it has newer technology and is a little more efficient than a t series..you will prob get the same hp #'s when its all said and done a gt series just does it a little better

as far as spooling and all that goes a gt will most def spool sooner than a t..mine starts @ around 4k but my exhaust isnt quite helping either [mad]

DarkkstaR
09-18-2005, 12:55 AM
Originally posted by OutkastSL
darkstar, don't you have a tip tranny?

Not for much longer..selling the car for a 5spd A4.

So, what trim T3/T4 do you have, and it STARTS to spool at 4k? Exhaust has gotta be a major downfall as well as tuning. Increasing the timing in lower RPMs where you have less boost will help spool-up a bit as well.

k0mpresd
09-18-2005, 07:39 AM
its a 57 trim, .60 a/r compressor w/ a 4 bolt exhaust

well, it makes boost before 4k but it doesnt really start to get going till 4k+

my timing is backed down -0.75deg w/ custom code (lemmiwinks pretty much)

i ran it @ 0 deg timing last time on the dyno and got around 8deg timing pull...w/ it the way it is now i get 6 deg timing pull

upsolute software...its ok..[rolleyes]

mike-2ptzero
09-18-2005, 07:47 AM
To compare the 2, a GT single bearing turbo will spool up faster, this means a GT with an ar of .82 will spool up like a T with a .62 ar. Same thing with the GT dual BB over a single bb.

DarkkstaR
09-18-2005, 10:05 AM
Sorry for all the questions but this is probably the route I'm going to take..

What boost are you running...do you think it's possible to hit 350whp with that turbo?

Also your software, do you know what's not good about it and what you want to change? If so, drop me a line and I'll see what I can do.

mike-2ptzero
09-18-2005, 10:10 AM
Originally posted by DarkkstaR
Sorry for all the questions but this is probably the route I'm going to take..

What boost are you running...do you think it's possible to hit 350whp with that turbo?

Also your software, do you know what's not good about it and what you want to change? If so, drop me a line and I'll see what I can do.


No I dont think its possible. Mat from Induktion Motorsports was running a T3/T4 on his 2 liter and made just over 300 whp running 30+ psi.

k0mpresd
09-18-2005, 10:14 AM
350whp is prob possible..my 268 was done w/ about 18-19psi and its making a little more now and i found a nice boost leak a while back in that L shaped hose coming off the manifold right behind the TB going to the suction pump and i have no idea how long itd been there..

that turbo is good for a lot more than what im getting out of it but that has a lot to do w/ my current set up...

as far as the software goes..it doesnt seem to keep the a/f real steady..other ppl w/ upsolute have the same issue...there was just a post on here about lambda values being inconsistent and i think he was running upsolute..

i love the 57 trim though..its a really nice turbo..and it makes all those cool noises everybody seems to like so much...lol..[:)]

if you have any more ?'s feel free to shoot them my way

mike-2ptzero
09-18-2005, 10:39 AM
On paper it looks so easy, trying it on the car. Have to remember 350whp on the quattro driveline is over 450hp at the crank. Most people have a hard time getting to 300 whp and those that are higher are either running a bigger turbo, 2 liter setup or running 30+ psi. At this point I am looking to push the 500whp mark.

k0mpresd
09-18-2005, 10:47 AM
i have a 1.8t block and an aeg crank waiting to be made into a stroker motor if i ever get off my ass and do it..oh yea..and win the lottery too maybe..rods and pistons alone are $$$

though..ill be content for a while when i get 300whp

OutkastSL
09-18-2005, 10:50 AM
ah...i was just about to say that i've seen integras with t3/t4 run 400whp but i forgot to consider the drivetrain loss of a fwd car vs awd car.

DarkkstaR
09-18-2005, 10:53 AM
Upslowute sucks IMO, it's good that your car isn't running dangerously. If you need any kind of software help or tweaking get at me.

Mike, I understand, I just wanted to see how hard he's pushing the turbo since I want to be able to expand and all. The way I see it, a GT2871 is 1100 dollars and a T3/T4 is 560. I'd like to give the T3/T4 a shot but not put this entire car together to find it spools at 4500rpms and it maxes out at like 300whp, you know?

OutkastSL
09-18-2005, 11:02 AM
the thing about the t3/t4, even if it spools late, it'll definately pull all the way to redline. it will always want more! t3/t4 is a top end power producer, the powerband is going to be different from the gt series.

edit: just found k0mpresd dyno, the power just keeps going up! doesn't top off and drop off:
http://www.uploadpixels.com/upload/1122228476_uploadpixels.com_dyno.jpg

k0mpresd
09-18-2005, 11:24 AM
^^ what he said...spools later than a gt and pulls all the way to redline..it really does feel like it wants to keep going and going..

i love the way the car drives, to me it drives like a turbo car should..laggy and pulls harder and harder the closer to redline you get..

you could always go w/ something a little smaller..like a 50 or 54 trim and w/ all other supporting mods should still be able to get 300whp and the powerband might be a little more to your liking..im just kind of partial to the 57 trim [;)]

OutkastSL
09-18-2005, 11:37 AM
ian, what's your redline? i noticed on that dyno, it only went up to 6000rpms. i think you should raise the redline and tune the upper power band and lemmiwinks (you are using it right?). you should pull out a good amount of top end power.

k0mpresd
09-18-2005, 11:48 AM
redline is 6500..id rev it more if i could

anyways, the guy driving the car on the dyno was the one that cut it off @ 5750..i would have kept going a little longer

ive made some tweaks on the fueling and such..i actually use a program called custom code..same thing as lemmiwinks but lemmi wont work connect to my ecu..i use a pci > serial card w/ my laptop since i dont have a built in serial...vag and custom code work perfect..lemmi wont..its weird

OutkastSL
09-18-2005, 12:29 PM
that sucks that he cut it off at 5750rpms. looking at the graph, it looks like you would've hit around 280hp/260tq. do you have anything to check a/f ratio while tuning? how's the a/f at the higher rpm range?

fouroheight68
09-18-2005, 12:39 PM
I need to get my car thrown on the dyno to see what im putting down... Im curious now

OutkastSL
09-18-2005, 12:42 PM
fouroheight68, if you are still in the south bay...my friend owns a shop in union city and he has a dyno. 3 baseline dyno pulls for $65 on a awd mustang dynamometer. the shop is called full function and the number is 510-475-5855.

k0mpresd
09-18-2005, 12:51 PM
i have a wideband o2 controller mounted where the cup holder used to be right above the radio

driving around town stays around 14-15, part throttle is in the 13's, and under boost it stays in the 12's even running a little rich somtimes dipping down into the 11's

like i said before...a/f wont stay consistent


Originally posted by fouroheight68
I need to get my car thrown on the dyno to see what im putting down... Im curious now
how can you have a 3071 strapped to the side and never been on a dyno??

on a sidenote..it got a little workout last night on the way home..130+ on the highway for a minute or two [:D]

pics of wideband (car is not running btw..its not really lean):

http://www.uploadpixels.com/upload/1127002394_uploadpixels.com_f2437276.jpg
http://www.uploadpixels.com/upload/1127002308_uploadpixels.com_f24372bc.jpg

DarkkstaR
09-18-2005, 02:48 PM
Nice, thanks for all the info so far, much appreciated :)

fouroheight68
09-18-2005, 05:11 PM
Originally posted by k0mpresd
i have a wideband o2 controller mounted where the cup holder used to be right above the radio

driving around town stays around 14-15, part throttle is in the 13's, and under boost it stays in the 12's even running a little rich somtimes dipping down into the 11's

like i said before...a/f wont stay consistent


how can you have a 3071 strapped to the side and never been on a dyno??

on a sidenote..it got a little workout last night on the way home..130+ on the highway for a minute or two [:D]

pics of wideband (car is not running btw..its not really lean):

http://www.uploadpixels.com/upload/1127002394_uploadpixels.com_f2437276.jpg
http://www.uploadpixels.com/upload/1127002308_uploadpixels.com_f24372bc.jpg


I have the samewide band, and im running about the same a/f you are, except im a little richer under full boost (around 10.8:1) at about 15psi. I also have a problem with inconsitant air fuel... The reason I havent had it on the dyno is because I purchased the car from the orignal owner at a good price, with the gt3071r on it about 6 months back, and I havent had the chance to get it dynod (neither did the previous owner, he eventually gave up and sold it to me). 65 for 3 pulls is a good deal, ill call him up this weekend
-Steve

fouroheight68
09-18-2005, 05:12 PM
Im loving the Nav. Did you hook it up yourself? Whats up with the gaps around the edges?

k0mpresd
09-18-2005, 06:01 PM
ouch...10.8 is too rich..youre losing power man...not good..lol [:)]

lean it up a bit under full boost and you should be good [up]

yes..i hooked it up myself, i do pretty much everything myself..anything on my car thats been added and/or changed ive done it..

gaps are because its a b6 navi in a b5 car...

navi thread: http://audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=64328

bitterchild
09-18-2005, 06:19 PM
guys, log the egts and see if you can bump a/f up to 12.5 under full boost. :)

fouroheight68
09-18-2005, 09:36 PM
Yeah, I know its definately running rich, but its better than lean. I have a split second fuel timing controller to control the fuel, but is there another way? You say log the egts and bump the a/f ratio up... is there a simplier way?

mike-2ptzero
09-18-2005, 10:39 PM
Originally posted by bitterchild
guys, log the egts and see if you can bump a/f up to 12.5 under full boost. :)

12.5's are ok at lower rpms or on full race fuel, but at very high rpms or on pump gas its better to be in the 11's.

k0mpresd
09-18-2005, 10:57 PM
Originally posted by fouroheight68
Yeah, I know its definately running rich, but its better than lean. I have a split second fuel timing controller to control the fuel, but is there another way? You say log the egts and bump the a/f ratio up... is there a simplier way?
what year is your car? you might could use lemmiwinks or custom code to tweak your fuel a little

bitterchild
09-18-2005, 11:54 PM
well if you watch your egts and don't let them top 750 you should be ok. 11 seems a bit rich for the 1.8t. Then again I'm not flowing that much up top so maybe that's why I'm not having trouble keeping it relatively lean. I may have to try greddy emanage next.

DarkkstaR
09-19-2005, 05:18 AM
Can I get a copy of this custom code program?

k0mpresd
09-19-2005, 05:47 AM
i can send it to you when i get home...im @ work till 6..shoot me a PM w/ your email and/or your AIM name

its the same thing as lemmiwinks pretty much but it seems to be a lot nicer about connecting to the ecu for ppl using set ups that dont use a straight serial>laptop cable

edit: in case anyone else is interested..heres the custom code download page http://www.custom-code.co.uk/component/option,com_remository/Itemid,44/func,selectcat/cat,1/

onemoremile
09-19-2005, 08:47 AM
Originally posted by mike-2ptzero
No I dont think its possible. Mat from Induktion Motorsports was running a T3/T4 on his 2 liter and made just over 300 whp running 30+ psi.

IIRC, he was also looking for something smoother. i called him and we talked for a while when he was selling that engine. it sounded nice but a little abrupt and aggressive for his taste.

k0mpresd
09-19-2005, 08:57 AM
my 268whp is w/ a t3/t4 w/ a stock exhaust system, upsolute software, boost @ 18-19psi, and pump gas (93 oct)

so youre telling me that w/ a new exhaust, 11-12 more psi, good software/tune, AND another .2L i wont gain 32whp? riiight...

onemoremile
09-19-2005, 09:13 AM
i was speaking more to the way power was delivered than how much is made.

i just drove a k04 s4 925 miles with 3 guys in the car and a couple bikes on the roof. while this car had less power than yours, the delivery was phenominal. i could easily take off in 2nd gear. at 2000 rpms the car just woke right up. it pulled very hard to 7200 rpm. that is a nice wide powerband with serious torque the whole way. the power is quiet, effortless, and immediate.
a big turbo a4 could get that power from maybe 4000-7000 rpm but wouldn't have nearly the throttle response that this thing had. it also wouldn't be able to embarass a lot of "normal" cars on the freeway without ever dropping out of high gear.

i know i'm comparing apples to oranges here but i'm saying that power delivery is at least important as how much power is made. the area under the torque curve is what hurtles the big mass of steel and rubber down the road.

this is where the double ball bearing turbos start to shine. if they generate the same peak numbers and spool earlier then the car will be quicker and easier to drive.

whether i change to an s4 or build my 1.8t, efficiency is my main concern. well, that and heat.

mike-2ptzero
09-19-2005, 09:24 AM
Originally posted by onemoremile
IIRC, he was also looking for something smoother. i called him and we talked for a while when he was selling that engine. it sounded nice but a little abrupt and aggressive for his taste.

What do you think a turbo setup is? If you guys want smooth buy a NA V8. Turbo setups that make huge power were meant to snap your neck, being abrupt and aggressive is what its all about. Now if you were to race a big turbo 1.8t and keep it in the power band thru the gear, you will notice that it is a very smooth pull thru the power band. Not sure where you race, but I have never seen anyone try to race another car while out of the power band or from idle.

k0mpresd
09-19-2005, 09:44 AM
Originally posted by onemoremile
i was speaking more to the way power was delivered than how much is made.

i just drove a k04 s4 925 miles with 3 guys in the car and a couple bikes on the roof. while this car had less power than yours, the delivery was phenominal. i could easily take off in 2nd gear. at 2000 rpms the car just woke right up. it pulled very hard to 7200 rpm. that is a nice wide powerband with serious torque the whole way. the power is quiet, effortless, and immediate.
a big turbo a4 could get that power from maybe 4000-7000 rpm but wouldn't have nearly the throttle response that this thing had. it also wouldn't be able to embarass a lot of "normal" cars on the freeway without ever dropping out of high gear.

i know i'm comparing apples to oranges here but i'm saying that power delivery is at least important as how much power is made. the area under the torque curve is what hurtles the big mass of steel and rubber down the road.

this is where the double ball bearing turbos start to shine. if they generate the same peak numbers and spool earlier then the car will be quicker and easier to drive.

whether i change to an s4 or build my 1.8t, efficiency is my main concern. well, that and heat.
i was more responding to the quote of a post you made but yea...a small motor with a big turbo is never going to be smooth..relatively speaking of course..boost hits all @ once most of the time and thats just the way it is...

a ball bearing turbo is just going to cause that boost to hit earlier in the rpm range

its all about what you want out of your car/motor set up

like i said before, i love the way my car drives, it drives, to me, the way a turbo car should..laggy and then bam..boost hits and youre gone

DarkkstaR
09-19-2005, 10:02 AM
Is there dyno evidence or any kind of proof that GT spools that much earlier though? There's nothing on hard paper that verifies that GT is that much better, no powerband differences without ATP rigged dynos, etc.

I believe the GT is better, but how much better you know?

k0mpresd
09-19-2005, 10:10 AM
might be worth a look...http://www.vwfixx.com/forums/index.php?showforum=206

keep in mind those are fwd cars

onemoremile
09-19-2005, 11:06 AM
Originally posted by mike-2ptzero
What do you think a turbo setup is? If you guys want smooth buy a NA V8. Turbo setups that make huge power were meant to snap your neck, being abrupt and aggressive is what its all about. Now if you were to race a big turbo 1.8t and keep it in the power band thru the gear, you will notice that it is a very smooth pull thru the power band. Not sure where you race, but I have never seen anyone try to race another car while out of the power band or from idle.

being abrupt and agressive is for folks that don't use the steering wheel. its a bit hard to roll on the throttle mid-corner if you've got an abrupt release of power.

i've got respect for what you've done with a frankenstein 1.8t but you really need to spend some seat time in a modded S4. an s4 that sneaks into the 11's will still be smoother than a stock 1.8t.

life isn't just about racing. do you live your life 1.4 mile at a time? your car is faster than the s4 i drove, no doubt about it. if we were side by side with the s4 (or LS2 or whatever) and rolled away from a light in a normal driving situation you would have to wait a long time for boost. the S4 or V8 would just walk away. you may be able to catch up but you will always be playing catch up. you are making up for deficiencies with a big turbo. your car will hardly be as smooth or easy to drive either. not to mention, more expensive.

turbos aren't supposed to be abrupt. that is a byproduct of a turbo too large for the vehicle it is on. it may work, but it is over-sized for anything but 1/4 runs. besides, think how much easier it would be to launch if you could do it at 3000 rpm.

another thing to consider is the powerband and spool characteristics of a jdm or uk higher spec (C or RA or whatever) stock subaru sti 2.0 with a twinscroll turbo. these cars make 330 bhp and spool like a K04. why hasn't anybody done a twinscroll manifold for a 1.8t? why is it easier to get an evo into the tens than it is to get an a4 to run 12.5?

onemoremile
09-19-2005, 11:20 AM
look at the dyno of this 675whp big turbo 2.0. it doesn't look very abrupt to me.

http://turbomagazine.com/features/0507_turbo_ek/

http://turbomagazine.com/features/0507_turbo_ek_10_z.jpg

k0mpresd
09-19-2005, 11:44 AM
my dyno graph:

http://www.uploadpixels.com/upload/1122228476_uploadpixels.com_dyno.jpg

not very abrut either..just keeps going up...boost is smooth..but there is definately a quick hit of power that you feel when youre driving the car when it finally does spool and get some momentum behind the air its flowing

and how did this discussion turn upside down??

bitterchild
09-19-2005, 12:14 PM
Originally posted by onemoremile
look at the dyno of this 675whp big turbo 2.0. it doesn't look very abrupt to me.

http://turbomagazine.com/features/0507_turbo_ek/



that powerband doesn't appear abrupt b/c of the scale on the y axis. I regularly enjoy your contribution onemoremile but sometimes it seems you're a bit too set in your ways on this topic. I wonder where you get your information and/or who influences you with regards to automotive performance. I know your boss w/ the cobra rep is an influence. all i know is that it is well established that turbos that don't "lag" are incorrectly sized. It is the relative term of "lag" that causes a bit of disagreement. Also in regards to racing a k04'd s4 and an a4 from a light, it is a simple matter of boostrev prior to the launch. This is the correct way to launch regardless of being a drag race or just a speed contest.

k0mpresd
09-19-2005, 12:49 PM
racing a k04 s4 and a a4 from a light is a simple matter of something called torque..

lets see..the s4 has 2 more cylinders and a turbo up on the a4 so of course its going to be quicker off the line..its got more beef behind it so to speak

as far as a turbo being incorrectly sized..thats all a matter of opinion and what you want out of your motor

onemoremile
09-19-2005, 01:04 PM
Originally posted by k0mpresd
my dyno graph:

http://www.uploadpixels.com/upload/1122228476_uploadpixels.com_dyno.jpg

not very abrut either..just keeps going up...boost is smooth..but there is definately a quick hit of power that you feel when youre driving the car when it finally does spool and get some momentum behind the air its flowing

and how did this discussion turn upside down??

your curve looks great.

i think i lead us off path. sorry everybody. back to the show...

how does a BB or dual BB turbo spool compared to a T3/T4??

mike-2ptzero
09-19-2005, 01:12 PM
Originally posted by onemoremile
being abrupt and agressive is for folks that don't use the steering wheel. its a bit hard to roll on the throttle mid-corner if you've got an abrupt release of power.

i've got respect for what you've done with a frankenstein 1.8t but you really need to spend some seat time in a modded S4. an s4 that sneaks into the 11's will still be smoother than a stock 1.8t.

life isn't just about racing. do you live your life 1.4 mile at a time? your car is faster than the s4 i drove, no doubt about it. if we were side by side with the s4 (or LS2 or whatever) and rolled away from a light in a normal driving situation you would have to wait a long time for boost. the S4 or V8 would just walk away. you may be able to catch up but you will always be playing catch up. you are making up for deficiencies with a big turbo. your car will hardly be as smooth or easy to drive either. not to mention, more expensive.

turbos aren't supposed to be abrupt. that is a byproduct of a turbo too large for the vehicle it is on. it may work, but it is over-sized for anything but 1/4 runs. besides, think how much easier it would be to launch if you could do it at 3000 rpm.

another thing to consider is the powerband and spool characteristics of a jdm or uk higher spec (C or RA or whatever) stock subaru sti 2.0 with a twinscroll turbo. these cars make 330 bhp and spool like a K04. why hasn't anybody done a twinscroll manifold for a 1.8t? why is it easier to get an evo into the tens than it is to get an a4 to run 12.5?

Do you think its that easy to put the evo into the 10's?

Now why would I launch my car at idle if I plan on pulling away from the light faster then the car next to me? Even doing a easy launch my car is not that slow and at the drags I have pulled a 1.67 60 ft time. It wouldn't be any easier launching at 3k rpms because that will be the start of its power band. This means that person would just have to shift sooner in the rpms.

onemoremile
09-19-2005, 01:15 PM
Originally posted by bitterchild
that powerband doesn't appear abrupt b/c of the scale on the y axis. I regularly enjoy your contribution onemoremile but sometimes it seems you're a bit too set in your ways on this topic. I wonder where you get your information and/or who influences you with regards to automotive performance. I know your boss w/ the cobra rep is an influence. all i know is that it is well established that turbos that don't "lag" are incorrectly sized. It is the relative term of "lag" that causes a bit of disagreement. Also in regards to racing a k04'd s4 and an a4 from a light, it is a simple matter of boostrev prior to the launch. This is the correct way to launch regardless of being a drag race or just a speed contest.

i'm just struggling with the realization that i've dumped a ton of cash into a car with the wrong engine. it is an amazing engine but belongs in a lighter car. if we could compete on a WRX or EVO level then it would be a different story.

i've taken this thread far enough off topic.


the reason i'm here is to see what it takes to make a well rounded 12 second 1.8t a4 avant that loves road courses and doesn't feel too anemic on the street.
boost threshold, spool time, and power potential. how do these turbos stack up?

mike-2ptzero
09-19-2005, 01:16 PM
Originally posted by onemoremile
your curve looks great.

i think i lead us off path. sorry everybody. back to the show...

how does a BB or dual BB turbo spool compared to a T3/T4??


Each one will spool up quicker as you move from T3 design, to BB and then to dual BB. I run a dual bb now in my car which is a .82 ar, it spools up like a single bb with a .63 ar and about the same as my old S100 which had a smaller ar then what I have now.

onemoremile
09-19-2005, 01:21 PM
Originally posted by mike-2ptzero
Do you think its that easy to put the evo into the 10's?

Now why would I launch my car at idle if I plan on pulling away from the light faster then the car next to me? Even doing a easy launch my car is not that slow and at the drags I have pulled a 1.67 60 ft time. It wouldn't be any easier launching at 3k rpms because that will be the start of its power band. This means that person would just have to shift sooner in the rpms.

<edit> my source: buschur racing babied a car out of the hole and ran an 11.3 at 123 mph with only 23 psi. it doesn't mention specifically but it looks like their BR500 stage 4.



you missed the point. if you are ready to race then you have a very quick car. if someone rolls up with big torque, smiles, and floors it they can embarass a car that can post better numbers. that instant power is addictive. i realize an EVO or STI can't do that either.

this kinda leads back to the 0-60 debate between a tuned K04 and a big turbo. the k04 jumps out and the BT reels it back in.

mike-2ptzero
09-19-2005, 01:22 PM
Originally posted by onemoremile
i'm just struggling with the realization that i've dumped a ton of cash into a car with the wrong engine. it is an amazing engine but belongs in a lighter car. if we could compete on a WRX or EVO level then it would be a different story.

i've taken this thread far enough off topic.


the reason i'm here is to see what it takes to make a well rounded 12 second 1.8t a4 avant that loves road courses and doesn't feel too anemic on the street.
boost threshold, spool time, and power potential. how do these turbos stack up?

But your talking about cars that come with a larger engine to start with. Bump yours up to the same engine size and put on a turbo that is about the same size, then you can campare it to those other cars. Just have to understand that to make a mid 12 second evo, you have to run about 30psi of boost to get that power. I should know since I ran my friends 03 evo with the turbo from the 2005, ran a 12.3 at fontana running 30+ psi.

onemoremile
09-19-2005, 01:25 PM
Originally posted by mike-2ptzero
Each one will spool up quicker as you move from T3 design, to BB and then to dual BB. I run a dual bb now in my car which is a .82 ar, it spools up like a single bb with a .63 ar and about the same as my old S100 which had a smaller ar then what I have now.

beautiful.

are there turbos with power potential equivalent to a GT28RS or GT2871 with lower boost threshold and/or quicker spool?

mike-2ptzero
09-19-2005, 02:19 PM
Originally posted by onemoremile
<edit> my source: buschur racing babied a car out of the hole and ran an 11.3 at 123 mph with only 23 psi. it doesn't mention specifically but it looks like their BR500 stage 4.



you missed the point. if you are ready to race then you have a very quick car. if someone rolls up with big torque, smiles, and floors it they can embarass a car that can post better numbers. that instant power is addictive. i realize an EVO or STI can't do that either.

this kinda leads back to the 0-60 debate between a tuned K04 and a big turbo. the k04 jumps out and the BT reels it back in.

A K04 and BT are about the same 0-60, but I dont think any K04's are doing low 4 second 0-60 times which is where my car is at.

Yes anyone can get a jump if they know their going to go first since they will be in the correct gear or running an auto trans which will drop a gear or 2 anyway. I ran my car against my boss in his E55 in a 3rd gear pull, he was behind me the whole way and could not make up any ground between us.


Once you go larger in turbo your spool up will be slightly later in the rpms, if you drop to a lower ar you just limit how much peak power you can make.

k0mpresd
09-19-2005, 02:24 PM
there are plenty of turbos out there w/ the same power potential @ lower boost levels..but theyre going to be bigger than a 28rs or 2871

a 2871 or 3071 is prob going to suit you best

it will give you good power w/ a decent spool but its going to be the stoplight killer that youre talking about w/ the s4

bitterchild
09-19-2005, 02:27 PM
i think onemoremile wants to keep a flat powerband for track purposes. I wouldn't go much bigger than a .86 28rs. Not really a 12 second car but any larger and you're really working yourself staying in the powerband w/o excessive engine braking.

On that point i would definetely recommend staying w/ a dual BB turbo as you really need the powerband to start as low as possible regardless of what size you choose.

k0mpresd
09-19-2005, 03:09 PM
ok..yea..if you want a flat as possible powerband w/o running out of breath @ high rpms then a 28rs would prob be a good choice

AB18
09-19-2005, 03:13 PM
I really hoping with the gt28r i can get a faster 0 to 60 time then what i have now with the ko4.

bitterchild
09-19-2005, 03:39 PM
Originally posted by AB18
I really hoping with the gt28r i can get a faster 0 to 60 time then what i have now with the ko4.

that would be a combination of the gt28r and a clutch that can take a 6k boosted drop.

mike-2ptzero
09-19-2005, 06:27 PM
Originally posted by bitterchild
that would be a combination of the gt28r and a clutch that can take a 6k boosted drop.


With the PES T28 setup I was in the mid 5's and right now in the low 4's maybe high 3's.

bitterchild
09-19-2005, 06:31 PM
so i'm looking over some comp maps and i'm not really seeing a great t3/t04 fit.

I'm using 38.5 lb/min at 2.55 pressure ratio at 7200rpm and 19.8 lb/min at 2.55 pr at 4000rpm. maybe a 2.0 pr at 4000 rpm would be more reasonable... what's your a/r, trim and where does it spool k0mp?

I'm looking at;

T3/T4 – AR .63 – 60 Trim
T3/T4 – AR .63 – 57 Trim
T3/T4 – AR .48 – 57 Trim

k0mpresd
09-19-2005, 06:35 PM
i have a 57 trim w/ a .60 a/r compressor and a .63 a/r 4 bolt exhaust

starts @ around 4k..theres boost before that but it doesnt really start to get going till 4k-4500...i know my exhaust has a lot to do w/ that but im not compaling or making excuses..the car pulls like crazy anyways

a t3/t4 on a 1.8t is pretty much there for top end high rpm power its not a stoplight racer nor do i want it to be

bitterchild
09-19-2005, 07:32 PM
how much did you pay? I'm looking at $550ish new

k0mpresd
09-19-2005, 08:17 PM
i got it from clay (rippinralf)

i know he sells k04s on here sometimes..hes a really cool guy to deal w/

anyways, i got for $585 w/ 2 day shipping

DarkkstaR
09-19-2005, 08:26 PM
T3/T4 turbos are good for 30psi tops from what I've been told. I'd say get a .50 trim and run high boost. Only way to spool one of those things at anything before 4k I bet. Plus external wastegate and open dump for the win.

What's the opinion on T3 super .60s? How about other brand turbos, like Turbonetics?

bitterchild
09-19-2005, 08:32 PM
the t3 super60s are too small. turbonetics basically builds any turbo combination to your specs. That's their niche.

k0mpresd
09-19-2005, 08:33 PM
oh yea..guess i should mention i run an external wastegate w/ open dump

50 trim w/ high boost should work for some good #'s

t3 super 60 is a good turbo..quicker spool and some more torque down low

turbonetics are good turbos..im just partial to garretts..no reason really..just always liked them and turbonetic turbos are $$


Originally posted by bitterchild
the t3 super60s are too small.
i like that..[;)]

bitterchild
09-19-2005, 08:37 PM
.57 super or super 50

i'm worried about the surge line on the .57 though it shouldnt be an issue since it doesn't spool that well.

k0mpresd
09-19-2005, 08:43 PM
if youre really worried about a late spooling turbo then get a 50 or 54 trim

still going to give you a good bit of power and make boost a little sooner

bitterchild
09-19-2005, 08:54 PM
are you .57 or super 57? i might get a t3/t04e 50 trim .48 hot, .50 cold

k0mpresd
09-20-2005, 05:08 AM
its a 57 trim..trim has to do w/ the way the wheels are made

has a .60 a/r compressor and a .63 a/r exhaust side..i *think* its .63 i cant remember for sure but i can check later on to make sure if you want me to

of course..the smaller the trim and a/r on the exhaust side then the faster its going to spool

AB18
09-20-2005, 06:27 AM
So the apr gt28r should have a faster 0 to 60 due to the faster spool

bitterchild
09-20-2005, 06:30 AM
0-60 doesn't matter if you have a clutch that can take a launch in the powerband.

I'm going w/ the 50 trim w/ the .48 a/r

what manifold/wastegate setup are you running k0mp? doesn't look like internal is possible

jrodmk2
09-20-2005, 06:43 AM
kompressed is the open wastegate really loud? i have known/driven open and damn they are loud as sh!t.
i am prob. not going this route with mine.

k0mpresd
09-20-2005, 07:24 AM
i have a external turbonetics wastegate, open dump..i had to run a wastegate adapter off the manifold to the wastegate and actually grind a small amount of metal off the back of it to get it to fit, its wedged right up against the motor mount bracket on the side of the block

internal is possible but you have to run the older 5 bolt style discharge

mine is a 4 bolt discharge...i was told by clay that its a little more efficient than the 5 bolt so thats what i went with

as far as how loud it is..honestly, the car is making so many different noises under full boost its hard to tell which one is the loudest..lol..[:)]

bitterchild
09-20-2005, 08:01 AM
what manifold are you running? t3 inlet is a tad larger than the t25 inlets that most 1.8t manis are built to

k0mpresd
09-20-2005, 08:28 AM
atp manifold...i wouldnt recommend it though..the top nuts really are a pita to tighten

get on vortex and IM passatg60 or whiteg60..i cant remember which one it is, i think its passatg60, but he sells atp clone manifolds, turbo placement is the same, little bit different design on top though so you can actually get those nuts tight and not kill yourself in the process

bitterchild
09-20-2005, 09:05 AM
so the atp is a t3 inlet? i was considering the pes mani but that's t25. i'll look into the atp clone and the Don R design manifold. any others?

k0mpresd
09-20-2005, 09:07 AM
atp sells both t3 and t25

don r stuff is nice but pretty much anything he sells is $$$

theres mmp but the turbo placement is different than the others

thats about all the good ones i know of

bitterchild
09-20-2005, 09:22 AM
i can't find passatg60 or whiteg60 on vwvortex. I want to see the atp clone in t3. sorry i dont vortex much. it looks like maybe i should

marcini
09-20-2005, 09:28 AM
how much is the passatg60 manifold??

mike-2ptzero
09-20-2005, 09:30 AM
Originally posted by k0mpresd
atp sells both t3 and t25

don r stuff is nice but pretty much anything he sells is $$$

theres mmp but the turbo placement is different than the others

thats about all the good ones i know of

Well Full-race.com sells a manifold that will hold any turbo you want, only thing is that it cost $1200 which is still cheaper then a MTM manifold.

OutkastSL
09-20-2005, 09:38 AM
bitter you going t3t/t4? sounds like it!!!

k0mpresd, i'm interested in the atp copied manifold, i might be interested in it as well. i think a small trim t3/t4 is what i'm aiming for and i want to spend less than $2000 on hardware.

bitterchild
09-20-2005, 09:39 AM
Originally posted by mike-2ptzero
Well Full-race.com sells a manifold that will hold any turbo you want, only thing is that it cost $1200 which is still cheaper then a MTM manifold.

thing is this setup is my attempt at power on the cheap. Trying to keep hardware under $1000, that leaves me like $500 for a mani.

OutkastSL
09-20-2005, 10:02 AM
hmmm...$1000 for hardware? what's your estimated price breakdown if you don't mine me asking?

i can get a rebuilt t3/t4 will ball bearings for about $300. then dp, manifold, oil return/feed, coolant lines, 440cc, and an emanage for software is on my list.

MR VTEC
09-20-2005, 10:22 AM
i pricing my hardware for my t28 for around $1200 (turbo, injectors, manifold) then have to add $ for software and installation hardware

OutkastSL
09-20-2005, 10:58 AM
quick question...is the oem t28 from a silvia sr20det the same as the t28's that we use on our audis? if so i have a friend that can get me one, rebuilt with ball bearings too.

bitterchild
09-20-2005, 10:59 AM
Depending on the turbo options (wastegate, 360degree bearings, gt wheels, ball bearing cartridge, etc.) I'm looking at anywhere from $400-800. I might just end up cheaping out and staying w/ a simple 270 degree, internal w/ traditional bearings and wheels.

$400 retail on the atp mani, still looking for a clone.

I've got fueling already. I will need lines and plumbing, not to mention a new exhaust solution.

bitterchild
09-20-2005, 11:01 AM
yea it's the same turbo. rebuild bb aren't quite the same as true gt bbs but they're better than none. go for it if it suits your power goals

OutkastSL
09-20-2005, 11:22 AM
what are you doing for the plumbing? you make your own lines right? would you be able to make a set for me/us? [:D] when my friend rebuilds the turbo's he has a guy that makes custom ball bearing cartridges for him, don't know the exact specs but like you said, it is ball bearing at least.

bitterchild
09-20-2005, 11:25 AM
sure, soon as I see what fittings, the lengths and the angles of the fittings I'll have some lines made up. If you want I'll just have a set made up just like mine. That would assume you have a similar manifold and the tip doesn't change anything. It really shouldn't. Let me know how emanage works out. I was going to try that since it uses all the original hookups that I have already tapped for the safc. emanage should have a few nice functions safc doesn't offer as well.

OutkastSL
09-20-2005, 12:00 PM
sweet, just curious what turbo are you leaning towards on getting? i'm willing to get a t3/t4 or a t28 (whatever my friend can get that's cheap)

yeah, the emanage has the same wires to splice in but has a 3d map for timing and fuel to tune vs the safc only having the 2d fuel map. for these piggy backs, they wont hinder the oem ecu right? as in the other functions it has.

onemoremile
09-20-2005, 12:52 PM
i was just cruising the vortex 1.8t forum (i know, stop throwing things at me!) and found this:

Tig welded Stainless 20v manifolds... For all turbos and setups... $395 Shipped with studs.

Contact me:

AIM: pete98m3
Email: Peter@CTSturbo.com

----

this is just a lead, not an endorsement.

OutkastSL
09-20-2005, 12:57 PM
question is...how thick are the manifolds and how well with the welds hold. sounds like a good deal if it lasts.

edit: just looked at his site, no listing for the manifolds, but the pricing on the turbo's are awesome! just fyi.

MR VTEC
09-20-2005, 01:00 PM
any one has one on there cars on the vortex?

k0mpresd
09-20-2005, 01:17 PM
anything from cts turbo is good quality..thats who clay/rippinralf works for..thats part his deal i think..

i made my own oil return line..i have pics @ home and coolant lines are easy to make too...

oil feed i got from atp and the t3/t4 i have currently is only oil cooled, no coolant lines going to it

DarkkstaR
09-20-2005, 01:33 PM
Originally posted by OutkastSL
hmmm...$1000 for hardware? what's your estimated price breakdown if you don't mine me asking?

i can get a rebuilt t3/t4 will ball bearings for about $300. then dp, manifold, oil return/feed, coolant lines, 440cc, and an emanage for software is on my list.

Where's the T3/T4 source?

As for injectors check out usrallyteam.com :)

k0mpresd
09-20-2005, 01:47 PM
clay/rippinralf is going to tbe cheapest t3 source around probably

and keep in mind..you get what you pay for

DarkkstaR
09-20-2005, 01:54 PM
yeah I feel that. How much is rippinralf pushing t3/t4s for?

OutkastSL
09-20-2005, 01:58 PM
it's one of my close friends. he sources a t3/t4 and rebuilds it. i don't know where he gets them but he'll sell it to me for $300-400 depending on how much he paid for it and the price of the rebuild.

i've dealt with scott from usrallyteam.com, he's a great guy and i'll probably end up purchasing the 440cc's from him again.

k0mpresd
09-20-2005, 01:58 PM
mine was $585 w/ 2 day shipping..they start @ $575 but he'll usually hook you up if you just talk to him a little while [;)]

he was going to let me have a 3071 for under $1100, i just didnt have the funds available for all that though [mad]

DarkkstaR
09-20-2005, 02:01 PM
Alright sounds like you guys know what's up then. :)

I'm hoping to get those 440ccs from him, a T3/t4 for rippinralf, and the rest custom made. I'll get a wideband and make my own ECU for it, and if you nDBW guys wanna take the same route I did I will send you guys base maps.

k0mpresd
09-20-2005, 02:04 PM
oh..and if anybody is interested i have some an fittings and about 2ft of -10 an line sitting in my room that i dont need, perfect for oil return

k0mpresd
09-20-2005, 06:04 PM
not great pics because i took them w/ my phone, no digi cam @ the time, but you can atleast get some idea.. the fittings are scratched up because i had to use vise grips to tighten them..i didnt have an wrenches and the only speed shop around here doesnt carry them..anyways...hope this helps one of you

http://www.ncvw.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=VW_Speak;action=display;num=1119842 203

mike-2ptzero
09-20-2005, 06:36 PM
Originally posted by k0mpresd
not great pics because i took them w/ my phone, no digi cam @ the time, but you can atleast get some idea.. the fittings are scratched up because i had to use vise grips to tighten them..i didnt have an wrenches and the only speed shop around here doesnt carry them..anyways...hope this helps one of you

http://www.ncvw.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=VW_Speak;action=display;num=1119842 203 Next time wrap them in black tape or put the black tap around the tool so it does not leave marks. Even a standard wrench will leave marks.

k0mpresd
09-20-2005, 06:42 PM
you know..i didnt even think about that...i feel smart...[:)]

edit: mike..are you going to h2o?

mike-2ptzero
09-20-2005, 07:22 PM
Originally posted by k0mpresd
you know..i didnt even think about that...i feel smart...[:)]

edit: mike..are you going to h2o?

Nope wont be making it.

bitterchild
09-20-2005, 08:12 PM
Originally posted by mike-2ptzero
Nope wont be making it.

WHAT??! http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v166/tonydatyga/icons/damnmate.gif

k0mp

-10an is huge, my current oil return is -6an, but free is free :p btw, do the t3/t04e's require oil restrictors to keep oil pressure below 35psi like the GTRs or is that only a BB cartridge issue?

outkast

I'm going to try and get a t3/t04e 50 trim .48a/r hot, .50 a/r cold. hopefully in a 5 bolt exhaust pattern w/ an internal wastegate. If not I may just egate it w/ the atp manifold.


onemoremile

I don't know why but I've never liked stainless steel manifolds. I guess I should really do more research on the subject before making impressions. Thanks for the heads up though, VW 1.8t forum is a pretty good place from what I've seen. A lot of sound engine guys.

OutkastSL
09-20-2005, 10:01 PM
Originally posted by DarkkstaR
Alright sounds like you guys know what's up then. :)

I'm hoping to get those 440ccs from him, a T3/t4 for rippinralf, and the rest custom made. I'll get a wideband and make my own ECU for it, and if you nDBW guys wanna take the same route I did I will send you guys base maps.

i want to take the same route and i would like to explore into what you have been working on. what do i need and what software do you use to edit it?

k0mpresd
09-21-2005, 05:10 AM
Originally posted by bitterchild
k0mp

-10an is huge, my current oil return is -6an, but free is free :p btw, do the t3/t04e's require oil restrictors to keep oil pressure below 35psi like the GTRs or is that only a BB cartridge issue?

10 an is not huge..its actually only about 1/2" id, 10 or 12 an is a normal size oil return, feed lines are usually 3 or 4 an, i have a 4an feed line

and yes, they do require oil restrictors...oil pressure kills them quick..i found out the hard way [mad]

i was using a restrictor that screwed into the oil feed port, it leaked..i now have a billet aluminum piece that bolts to the housing w/ a built in restrictor and the feed line attaches to it and no more leaking

DarkkstaR
09-21-2005, 07:40 AM
Outkast, your best bet is getting basemaps and using a piggyback to finetune, or finding a competant tuner (hard to do these days) then to go through reverse engineering it all like I did. The only one-stop software package for chiptuning is winOLS and it costs about 10000 USD and the program sucks. There's a reason only giant companies do it.

Like I said I would be glad to help you guys tune the ndbw cars and even some dbw...I know ndbw like the back of my hand compared to dbw however. Depends on what revision of the ECU.

As for the hardware, someone should help me formulate a good BT shopping list over in the FI forum since i'm a bit lost on the oil restrictor stuff :)

bitterchild
09-21-2005, 07:43 AM
Dark, PM me and I can set you up real nice

k0mpresd
09-21-2005, 07:51 AM
dark..same here..i should be able to give you a list of most everything on my car and things ive changed around

should give you a good idea of what all you need

DarkkstaR
09-21-2005, 07:52 AM
I'm not ready to buy shit yet, just so you know. I still have to my autotragic car for a 5spd one, and get rid of my parts.

bitterchild
09-21-2005, 08:33 AM
I was going to help you size a turbo basically. then you can feel around for what you want to do manifold/wastegate wise

DarkkstaR
09-21-2005, 10:05 AM
ohhh got ya. That's fine, check your PMs.

BLACK B5
09-21-2005, 02:50 PM
Originally posted by DarkkstaR
Outkast, your best bet is getting basemaps and using a piggyback to finetune, or finding a competant tuner (hard to do these days) then to go through reverse engineering it all like I did. The only one-stop software package for chiptuning is winOLS and it costs about 10000 USD and the program sucks. There's a reason only giant companies do it.

Like I said I would be glad to help you guys tune the ndbw cars and even some dbw...I know ndbw like the back of my hand compared to dbw however. Depends on what revision of the ECU.

As for the hardware, someone should help me formulate a good BT shopping list over in the FI forum since i'm a bit lost on the oil restrictor stuff :)

darkkstar, have you done any work with the dbw at all yet?

if you have i could use some tweaking tips from you. my vag-com cable will be here tomorrow and planned to play with lemmiwinks a little. i have a 2001 with GIAC k04 and the wonderfull bitch stick[a4]

DarkkstaR
09-21-2005, 02:57 PM
Lemmiwinks is easy stuff, I'm sure there's tons of threads on it.

2001 I have yet to tool with, the DBW cars are a handful compared to the old nDBW. But for Lemmiwinks you could modify minor changes, I've done that on tons of DBW cars.

Monitor timing pull on measuring block 20 I believe, you want to pull 4-6 degrees on an aggressive tune. Lemmiwinks adds 1.5 degrees at a time. It says .75, but it's actually 1.5 degrees each time according to what I've found.

A/F is monitored with block 31 if I remember correctly. Use the first (pre-cat) O2 sensor. You have a wideband stock. Log and multiply your logged #s by 14.7 to get your A/F ratio. Use the fuel tweaks to get it to 12:1, but the fuel adapts itself back over time so you'll need to set it back time and time again.

You cannot change boost with lemmiwinks fyi.

GIAC does a great job tuning compared to a lot of the other companies IMO. You shouldn't really have to change much unless you mbc the car or something crazy.

Let me know if you need help.

bitterchild
09-21-2005, 03:13 PM
i don't know if block 31 is raw bosch sensor voltage but a/f ratio is 2x +10; x being the raw sensor voltage. Basically 2.35V is stoich (14.7:1)

I'll chew on some maps for you dark

DarkkstaR
09-21-2005, 03:15 PM
Awesome. Thanks :)

k0mpresd
09-21-2005, 03:28 PM
you know if youd both bite the bullet and buy a wideband you wouldnt have to multiply anything [;)] [:D]

bitterchild
09-21-2005, 03:34 PM
yea, i gotta find a place to put mine. Right now it's still sitting in the ashtray :(

DarkkstaR
09-21-2005, 03:43 PM
Soon my friend, soon

bitterchild
09-21-2005, 03:46 PM
They're going for like $299 now. There's a used one for $250 shipped if you want it.

offroader1006
09-21-2005, 04:12 PM
so wait, was it said that you cant make more than 350 awhp with a T3/T4 on our motors?