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View Full Version : Yet another 4.2 swap? Completed? Abandoned??? Hold on for the ride :)



OwwD
02-22-2015, 05:08 PM
Ok, I should start out by saying that the story I'm about to tell has already happened. I haven't had any time to post during the process as life is 110% full right now. It all started simply enough, a couple guys standing around at work talking about racing and track days driven in the past leading to the comment, "Hey, why don't we do a LeMons race?"... Why don't we do a LeMons race... Famous last words. So the ball got rolling and a team formed quickly. Now, time to find a car. As anyone in Lemons will tell you, simple carburetor cars rule the day, simple fuel injected cars are for the slightly crazy, and German cars are for mad fools. So we promptly sourced a 1996 Audi B5 A4. Not just any A4, but one that could never be registered again as it was involved in a high-speed police apprehension and the vehicle was determined to be of questionable origin(s). Perfect. 2.8 5 speed, simple enough and the price was right. At this point I should point out that we have an affiliation with Cypress Auto Recyclers in Oakland - I do not say this just to shamelessly plug them, but really if you don't have access to something like this and want to race LeMons or Chump... good luck. Ok, without further delay, here's how she looked when she first came home in her black on black on black-over-many-other-colors:
http://www.audizine.com/gallery/data/500/audi_a4_quattroz00593001_a.jpg

OwwD
02-22-2015, 05:24 PM
Ok, we quickly got busy gutting the car. A challenge in an Audi as we need to get it down to a bare interior and start fabricating a roll cage and seat mounts... but there's a lot of wiring in this car... Careful what you cut! Cutting, ripping out plastic, foam, and all sorts of stuff that falls in a car over 18 years. Disassemble the airbag, lighten, lighten, lighten. Some pics:
http://www.audizine.com/gallery/data/500/medium/IMG_14621.JPG (http://www.audizine.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=79046&title=wiring&cat=500)

Seat welded in, roll cage fabricated, custom switch panel fab'd, radio system wired and mounted, extinguisher mounted and LOTS I'm missing - it's moving fast - all hands on deck! A lot to build if we're going to get to the track:
http://www.audizine.com/gallery/data/500/medium/IMG_15113.JPG
http://www.audizine.com/gallery/data/500/medium/IMG_15142.JPG

OwwD
02-22-2015, 05:29 PM
http://www.audizine.com/gallery/data/500/medium/IMG_15132.JPG
http://www.audizine.com/gallery/data/500/medium/IMG_15124.JPG

OwwD
02-22-2015, 05:38 PM
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-1sks9M3UDKA/VOp3cR9qbeI/AAAAAAAAL1E/FgO548yyQ8c/w488-h651-no/IMG_1461.JPG

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-co2qRcO_tNM/VOp3ceJFyYI/AAAAAAAAL1A/-QNYNKcG1Qc/w488-h651-no/IMG_1460.JPG

walky_talky20
02-22-2015, 07:00 PM
Yeah, they work. But do them like this: (quote my post to "see what I did there")

Basically just clicked that link, waited for photo to load, right-click "copy image URL", back on AZ click "insert image", paste, win.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-1sks9M3UDKA/VOp3cR9qbeI/AAAAAAAAL1E/FgO548yyQ8c/w617-h822-no/IMG_1461.JPG

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-co2qRcO_tNM/VOp3ceJFyYI/AAAAAAAAL1A/-QNYNKcG1Qc/w617-h822-no/IMG_1460.JPG

Bordom
02-22-2015, 07:08 PM
I'm so jealous of those doors. Would have picked them up in a heart beat

(before you stickered them to shit, lol)

OwwD
02-22-2015, 08:47 PM
yep, thanks, knew how to get them there, just wasn't sure the google plus permissions would let it show as I was getting auto-logged in - needed someone else to verify - thanks!

OwwD
02-22-2015, 08:53 PM
Ok, much more work done...
Major engine tune up - nice coolant:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-0Fm3OL8pU8w/VOp3cdNev2I/AAAAAAAAL1A/r4AOKwRu7CE/w488-h651-no/IMG_1568.JPG
Drained and filled the transmission, uh oh. The rear carrier nut is stripped and we think someone may have sealed it. That took a while to figure out. Finally welded a bolt into the hex hole and cranked it right out. Still using it that way, much better design than stock:)

Here's the in-flight entertainment system (actually a camera system)
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-MclYr4ko4LU/VOp3cVlTa7I/AAAAAAAAL1E/DOe2FFI8Zfk/w868-h651-no/IMG_1545.JPG
And here she is after the start of the two tone race paint (now gone - back to flat black):
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-ajEEC18wX6E/VOp3cQRi0OI/AAAAAAAAL1E/w6VXpoOTdIs/w868-h651-no/IMG_1510.JPG

OwwD
02-22-2015, 09:15 PM
I'm glossing over so much work, anyone who has tried something like this knows what I'm talking about. Wired the battery up to the back and recessed it into the spare wheel well. Here's a video of the battery disconnect test / will it still run after all the wiring changes test drive. After this, pulled the brakes and full race bleed, replaced upper and lower control arms with units with new bushings, and more I'm forgetting.


https://redirector.googlevideo.com/videoplayback?requiressl=yes&shardbypass=yes&cmbypass=yes&id=11341bde633c678f&itag=18&source=picasa&cmo=secure_transport%3Dyes&ip=0.0.0.0&ipbits=0&expire=1427260350&sparams=requiressl,shardbypass,cmbypass,id,itag,so urce,ip,ipbits,expire&signature=A80597822F16626F5B9D68D755881729F18A13DD .7766CB984A4DA7B540D6AD1ECA9B44DF681FC446&key=lh1&cpn=G6X3MMHpsh_NLnbs&c=web&cver=html5

walky_talky20
02-22-2015, 09:19 PM
Can you share a bit about the "road to lemons"? Specifically, what are the major expenses, hurdles, etc? Money-to-fun ratio? Would you recommend?

OwwD
02-22-2015, 09:24 PM
Ok, so after a lot of work (had to be over a hundred man hours) and the purchasing of all the extras (spare sets of wheels and tires, all the usual safety equipment) and logistics, it was time to race!
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/skRUJ2kq9B05fOMAV3HBaIhLg3EYqxMQFPUGMB8diTE=w315-h209-p-no
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/opW4MYEccaL7Qycq6AVRrDuY9kSGJLnGJwQ0yyhPhkc=w315-h209-p-no
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/TmGUQWDmRt0QpHVsZwzFnzfHfGo921T2ZC4YJjHnwuA=w314-h209-p-no
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/z22PWia2wLhiR1-scAaa6SgDictmJCAPrOtX513B0LE=w315-h209-p-no
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/3S-vjBnNw65leRBtGijcA7wdOM75TOcSu6Kk-OYTiTs=w314-h209-p-no

OwwD
02-22-2015, 09:32 PM
The road to LeMons... Ok, here are some thoughts, my opinion only:
You can just go and buy a good car that someone has put a lot of time and money into and go racing quickly. Or you can try to build. Building is really not easy or advised for a first timer. We have completely disassembled this car (I mean to the empty shell) - are you comfortable doing that? Be honest and realistic, first time through I would let someone else deal with that and pick something up after they have lived their dream of being a racer.
I know it's advertised for grassroots first timers. Most of us had track experience, I would recommend getting yourself through several HPDE at the minimum. Some on our team run competitive times with NASA and SCCA types.
Is it safe, no comment, you have to decide for yourself. Youtube.
Will it cost way more than you think, yes, read on.
Is your marriage sound and does your wife share and respect your motorsports passions? If so, proceed, if not, reconsider.
Is it fun, absolutely - so are track days - start there and run laps with a good coach
If you do it, get some good people to do it with you and have fun. You will need to find the balance between too many/too few drivers
Much like Audizine, devour the LeMons website first
You will have to work to be competitive. Do your homework or just go into it to have fun and don't worry about the rest
I could go on, but the race is about to take a dramatic turn so without further ado....

OwwD
02-22-2015, 09:47 PM
We have been having a good first day, it's later in the afternoon and we are on our last driver. The car has been running well and we are getting through our changes pretty quickly. Not bad for a first race. Uh oh, we have a coolant leak, that little 2.8 has been running at high load for hours so we knew something would eventually rear up. In it comes to the pits and we quickly find the source of the leak, cut it out, throw in a metal union, clamp it down and get the driver back out on the track. That's when things go bad. The driver notices smoke and pulls off the track thinking we missed the leak and he's boiling over again. Nope. That's black smoke. We're on fire big time. The driver gets out safely, the rescue truck arrives and gets the fire out. But not before extensive damage. We realize we spit a fuel line and it basically belched fuel all over the top of the engine. Lucky no one was hurt. We load the car onto the trailer and rip down to our shop, committed to pull an all nighter and get the car back in the race the second day. It's grim:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-4t7kUQUs5X8/VLap0v-9RJI/AAAAAAAALcA/VNKarqkcQKg/w488-h651-no/IMG_0580.JPG

Our entire wiring harness melted into one mess, the composite valve covers melted into the valves springs and valves. I pulled those and hand removed all the plastic:
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-6zaMInEqrpg/Uy5y7ky1-JI/AAAAAAAAH4c/E3bELPIIoSk/w868-h651-no/IMG_1584.JPG
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-ECZ4XwLwHHw/VLap0uCjhlI/AAAAAAAALd0/F7UH9Zx-45I/w488-h651-no/IMG_0579.JPG
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-toi_ep1w-AA/VLap0b0RZAI/AAAAAAAALcA/CbqYQWvZ-Qc/w488-h651-no/IMG_0578.JPG
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-OX2kzqEBXao/VOp3cRe4kHI/AAAAAAAAL1E/eY-cEmqqfd8/w868-h651-no/IMG_1583.JPG
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-ARCQp1A9jxw/VOp3ccGXlKI/AAAAAAAAL1A/jF1VI9keUgA/w488-h651-no/IMG_1585.JPG

We fought hard, we were exhausted and had raced all day before the all-nighter. When the sun came up, we were close...
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-KEUPsB99z1M/VOp3cdTaV7I/AAAAAAAAL1E/OYAYNrRgZ_M/w488-h651-no/IMG_1586.JPG

... but we couldn't get all the electrical repaired... We had to call it. It was a somber moment after all that work to see it end that way. But that's part of racing and you have to be prepared to handle it. We want to drive and be fast, but we don't want anyone to get hurt, and nobody did.

So, what to do, dump the car and move to a carb'd V8 piece of americana? Find another 2.8? Just hang it up? ...

OwwD
02-22-2015, 09:53 PM
Well, before we throw in the towel and move onto another car, let's just rip everything out and cut a little here and there and think about some things...
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-59L7iQd-o7s/VOp3cWguqoI/AAAAAAAAL1A/zZ8Szt_ADlo/w640-h480-no/a4%2Bbaytona500%2Bben002.jpg

OwwD
02-22-2015, 10:05 PM
Hmmm, we have some ideas. We have some time until the next race. Let's just say we want to stay quattro for now, how big an engine can we shove in this little thing. A few reads on Audizine shows its a royal PITA and near impossible to really get a 4.2 to function, but some have pulled it off. Why don't we cruise the yard and see what we can find...
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-kg0f9-FYtic/VOp3cYqL3GI/AAAAAAAAL1A/sIRiatw2-1g/w640-h480-no/a4%2Bbaytona500%2Bben001.jpg
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-tWXsrZzprD8/VOp3cahSY6I/AAAAAAAAL1A/F1xo4tQ-nBY/w640-h480-no/a4%2Bbaytona500%2Bben004.jpg
Compression and leak down are good, oil looks good, what the heck. If it doesn't work it doesn't work. First off, we cut the 2nd firewall out which makes working on this engine and getting it in much easier (later reinforced with a strut bar). This was an auto box motor, so we went through the flywheel dance until we found one that would work. Then there's the speed sensor issue that others have documented before me, we tapped a hole and mounted that and I swear we didn't think the timing ring was lining up, but it did somehow (software magic?)
Oh, the cross member won't fit, not going to change the pan so we'll section that out a bit then recess a thick plate and weld that in.
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-Y1_xQCumOck/VOp3cW1SYgI/AAAAAAAAL1E/cNOc2JlWY7I/w868-h651-no/IMG_1823.JPG
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-M_XE0FIVThA/VAeOuisK_PI/AAAAAAAAJxs/qV_lwVHPhdA/w488-h651-no/IMG_2024.JPG
Motor mounts? Probably can buy them, we built ours out of 1/4 steel and we're solid mounted.
Here's the motor and trans married together on our custom jig, waiting for clearance work to finish:
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-1Hr4WGWu8Zc/VOp3cXpu_vI/AAAAAAAAL1E/T03jUrHjonc/w868-h651-no/IMG_1820.JPG
Hmmm. Well, let's see. This just MIGHT fit...
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-VWWuuIK_r4U/VOp3cTIG8oI/AAAAAAAAL1E/4hopNacz-T4/w868-h651-no/IMG_1825.JPG
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-WKiwbqLsoS8/VOp3cZxg5lI/AAAAAAAAL1E/E3PG7zFapGI/w868-h651-no/IMG_1911.JPG
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-GLx-TTDvjZg/VOp3cZCHPBI/AAAAAAAAL1E/88-9rPXE2r4/w868-h651-no/IMG_1836.JPG

OwwD
02-22-2015, 10:12 PM
Ok, how do we make this thing run? I have a tech background so it's time to start studying the ECU. Of course that led me to the brilliant threads on nefmoto and the super guru ddilllenger. I decided to try to DIY (Daz is laughing hard right now :) ) and built a flash rig, cracked the boot mode and started playing with flashing.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-1EI7GYBrs38/VOp2ZKn7f0I/AAAAAAAAL00/VqmM9mr0vBM/w488-h651-no/IMG_1860.JPG
You don't really need a drill press to "crack" it :)
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-SnFFL-iG6wg/VOp2ZOAXHwI/AAAAAAAAL00/arfX1UsKUBQ/w868-h651-no/IMG_1863.JPG
Lot's more midnight oil! Didn't someone ask earlier if this was a good LeMons car??? ;)
Got a baseline tune and back to fabricating. Anyone who has tried this knows how fun it is to get the radiator and fan in. We have built a custom setup that looks stock but we can pull the whole front bumper off with two clevis pins and then pull the whole radiator out by removing two bolts - we have made a custom radiator sub frame.
This pic is with the engine mounted but before the radiator frame was built. You may notice we've dumped ABS and such for the track and have an adjustable proportioning valve for the brakes. This is before we extended the air intake through the location of the headlamp.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-UhREIRp2OSM/VOp2E59qYrI/AAAAAAAAL0k/fTmO9C57uPc/w868-h651-no/IMG_2079.JPG

OwwD
02-22-2015, 10:14 PM
Oh, yeah, before anyone asks, the fan is a pusher unit we hot rodded up that we pulled from a BMW

OwwD
02-22-2015, 10:27 PM
Ok, wonder what this will sound like with just headers?

https://redirector.googlevideo.com/videoplayback?requiressl=yes&shardbypass=yes&cmbypass=yes&id=6d2fc7adb81531ed&itag=18&source=picasa&cmo=secure_transport%3Dyes&ip=0.0.0.0&ipbits=0&expire=1427264794&sparams=requiressl,shardbypass,cmbypass,id,itag,so urce,ip,ipbits,expire&signature=D7618D18C88BD32CC37E1EC53FAAA2B437554A58 .A528C699881F20495510D3C506BDB4EAC90D96EC&key=lh1&cpn=Qpk44iKmegS0l9Gm&c=web&cver=html5
This might be faster than the 2.8 ;)

OwwD
02-22-2015, 10:37 PM
Lets remove some body roll and lower the car
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-7hdHPTsbJZw/U21HormIZeI/AAAAAAAAI0I/786gCGV0x_c/w868-h651-no/IMG_1821.JPG
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-kHRoRJL4LCk/U21Hot0gtwI/AAAAAAAAI0I/LSTSREZY8Xs/w868-h651-no/IMG_1822.JPG

Ok, we all love Audi's, but this is a V8. Let's throw in some hot rod nostalgia on this German burner!
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-VgTxt-3e1zM/VLamVuWz8aI/AAAAAAAALXA/kDpfAyfX-Ys/w868-h651-no/IMG_2198.JPG
It sounds like you think it sounds. Awesome. :)
We ultimately moved the exhaust out the back and it runs through some 2012 Camaro SS mufflers as we try to stay under decibel requirements for many tracks

OwwD
02-22-2015, 10:52 PM
Ok, it's looking and running nasty. Obviously we have sunk a lot of time into the car and we are way outside normal LeMons territory
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-PbCZjC9qnzs/VLamVsNk5BI/AAAAAAAALXA/U2pAW0r27f8/w868-h651-no/IMG_2199.JPG
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-vj4TgaCKhsw/VLamVpKaB-I/AAAAAAAALXA/CGOCJSdaZdU/w868-h651-no/IMG_2194.JPG
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-wyWYEG2EdZQ/VOp1tUP3q2I/AAAAAAAAL0A/Vx4D3GoEFoQ/w868-h651-no/IMG_2195.JPG
We show up to our next race and in the warm ups have cooling problems which leads to some long laps being run with the engine hot. This is a 5 mile track. The engine is too hot and we cook it. Be basically tear it down and work to repair it on the spot.
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-JfKyEyp48AY/VBdVp5Edk7I/AAAAAAAAJ18/XgWhr8KRFEM/w626-h489-no/audi%2Blemons.jpg
It does not go well, we get some laps in, but it doesn't perform like we'd hoped. But it has potential, serious potential.

Oh yeah, Guinness record for most cars to start a race, our car is second row, farthest to the right:
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-B4KHLz0KKXg/VMbteQxT2JI/AAAAAAAALgw/FUqoy6jbgf8/w626-h213-no/unnamed.jpg

OwwD
02-22-2015, 11:03 PM
Ok, we tear the motor down, send the heads out to have the valves lapped and do a resurface due to overheating from a blown head gasket. We check the block, find the oil pump pressure relief is frozen, pull that apart and replace it, basically go through the motor. Now let's just go hog wild now, no reason to stop, why not add a little rear downforce:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-wEjSTF2VXrM/VLalBM21GcI/AAAAAAAALWg/bVaiMxNmcBg/w868-h651-no/IMG_2559.JPG

Retune with an S6 tune and get some more ponies, new front hubs and control arms and larger discs, calipers, booster and MC from a newer A4 that when fitted not only help braking but also space out the front to cut down on the understeer when pushing hard into corners (and out). Here's the quick-release front end I mentioned:
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-Fir_HskTMBM/VOp11JwJq4I/AAAAAAAAL0M/-5IXy0dp2Wg/w488-h651-no/IMG_2630.JPG
Smoothing radiator connections for a typical setup, those $%#* Audi wire clips are not track worthy
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-e9TUPJ5-e0A/VOp11B37DGI/AAAAAAAAL0M/K5BgXs-8mW4/w488-h651-no/IMG_2629.JPG
And we're moving race series to Chump so here's a new net we welded in:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Q6l365WtE-k/VOp11Ff1EaI/AAAAAAAAL0M/C4h-JCwmpmA/w868-h651-no/IMG_2621.JPG
And fire suppression system - hopefully we never need this again!
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-TpzeuXJGOIE/VOp4HaHGXaI/AAAAAAAAL1w/57msSRO7D8M/w488-h651-no/IMG_2641.JPG
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-b1Yg39PVGZo/VOp4KF_qqmI/AAAAAAAAL2I/G8wztZAy2U0/w868-h651-no/IMG_2643.JPG

OwwD
02-22-2015, 11:09 PM
Let's cool those brakes! We'll fabricate a set of cooling intakes out of shop vac parts in the front:
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-3bA8YnjwDDU/VOp4ZQa2e0I/AAAAAAAAL4U/VJaxJ8kRHsw/w868-h651-no/IMG_2654.JPG
Fitting those in is tough, we moved to 17" wheels and with the car lowered, everything is tight. In fact we're rolling fenders next week.
(yep, see the fluid, fixing that next)
How about the rears:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-gHwUknyNj7w/VOp4Vyti0bI/AAAAAAAAL30/fkHIP6i3NFg/w868-h651-no/IMG_2652.JPG
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-dxmzvwUmrv0/VOp4XSJj3UI/AAAAAAAAL4I/sWMpYjSd0B8/w868-h651-no/IMG_2653.JPG

It's fast, and it looks fast. When we go to track days, people will walk past a GT3RS and come over and spend 20 minutes talking to us about it.
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-J_gOOW_eeQI/VOp4aWIpmVI/AAAAAAAAL4g/P1OcYJQ_ta4/w868-h651-no/IMG_2655.JPG

Bordom
02-22-2015, 11:18 PM
We have been having a good first day, it's later in the afternoon and we are on our last driver. The car has been running well and we are getting through our changes pretty quickly. Not bad for a first race. Uh oh, we have a coolant leak, that little 2.8 has been running at high load for hours so we knew something would eventually rear up. In it comes to the pits and we quickly find the source of the leak, cut it out, throw in a metal union, clamp it down and get the driver back out on the track. That's when things go bad. The driver notices smoke and pulls off the track thinking we missed the leak and he's boiling over again. Nope. That's black smoke. We're on fire big time. The driver gets out safely, the rescue truck arrives and gets the fire out. But not before extensive damage. We realize we spit a fuel line and it basically belched fuel all over the top of the engine. Lucky no one was hurt. We load the car onto the trailer and rip down to our shop, committed to pull an all nighter and get the car back in the race the second day. It's grim:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-4t7kUQUs5X8/VLap0v-9RJI/AAAAAAAALcA/VNKarqkcQKg/w488-h651-no/IMG_0580.JPG

Our entire wiring harness melted into one mess, the composite valve covers melted into the valves springs and valves. I pulled those and hand removed all the plastic:
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-6zaMInEqrpg/Uy5y7ky1-JI/AAAAAAAAH4c/E3bELPIIoSk/w868-h651-no/IMG_1584.JPG
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-ECZ4XwLwHHw/VLap0uCjhlI/AAAAAAAALd0/F7UH9Zx-45I/w488-h651-no/IMG_0579.JPG
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-toi_ep1w-AA/VLap0b0RZAI/AAAAAAAALcA/CbqYQWvZ-Qc/w488-h651-no/IMG_0578.JPG
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-OX2kzqEBXao/VOp3cRe4kHI/AAAAAAAAL1E/eY-cEmqqfd8/w868-h651-no/IMG_1583.JPG
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-ARCQp1A9jxw/VOp3ccGXlKI/AAAAAAAAL1A/jF1VI9keUgA/w488-h651-no/IMG_1585.JPG

We fought hard, we were exhausted and had raced all day before the all-nighter. When the sun came up, we were close:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-KEUPsB99z1M/VOp3cdTaV7I/AAAAAAAAL1E/OYAYNrRgZ_M/w488-h651-no/IMG_1586.JPG

but we couldn't get all the electrical repaired... We had to call it. It was a somber moment after all that work to see it end that way. But that's part of racing and you have to be prepared to handle it. We want to drive and be fast, but we don't want anyone to get hurt, and nobody did.

So, what to do, dumb the car and move to a carb'd V8 piece of americana? Find another 2.8? Just hang it up? ...
Impressive carnage for a 12v

OwwD
02-22-2015, 11:45 PM
Ok, well there are a lot of people who say the 4.2 isn't the motor to have. That we should be playing with a turbo motor. Everyone is welcome to their opinions, but as someone who has put laps down with the 4.2, it's a good motor that pulls hard. Here's a video taken before our latest tune which shows a track session. I am out there with 20 other cars, all NASA or SCCA cars. I am the only car not running slicks (turn up the volume and you will hear the torture I put the DOTs through). I am only caught by an SCCA e46, two or three monster vettes making 2x the HP and an ACR Viper making way more than 2x the HP, so I think that little Audi motor can run.

http://youtu.be/UvueO5f0ypc
(By the way, if you watched all that you have a lot of time on your hands! :) )
We out run this guy, care to guess how he feels when he gets beat by a car that cost less than 1/6 the price of tow rig pulling his trailer :) :) ?
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-NyidIcqGXeI/VOLQ5ttcUHI/AAAAAAAALos/fEkCvYD0Hj8/w488-h651-no/IMG_2611.JPG

On our last track day, this car legitimately ran close with GT3, GT3RS, Z06, Cayman S and a slew of spec class cars (Mustangs, e36/46). It's not going to lay down comparable times in the hands of a serious driver, but it more than held its own and if you can pay for the exotic car, but not necessarily drive it, you got passed :) On tracks like Sonoma, power is no issue, it's tires and suspension. Someday we may decide to run wider, slick tires, but it's a blast as it is. The guys on this team that have logged hundreds of hours on this car love it. This forum has been a great place to read, research and learn from the guys that have endeavored to do this build before us. An extra special thanks goes out to ddillenger who helped answer many eye-rolling questions. We're on the track this weekend racing, who knows how it will go, may run all weekend, may blow up in lap 1 - that's racing. And endurance racing is very hard on a car, knowing when not to push is one of the harder things to figure out. I'll be spending every night this week after work busting knuckles in preparation, that's on top of a more than full time job, raising two little kids, coaching little league, etc. etc so I won't be posting much, but I'll let you know how this weekend goes. This forum is a great resource! good luck to any masochists that try this build in the future, it isn't easy, but if you pull it off, you may end up with a little old Audi, that sounds like it has a Roush motor and runs like Ricky Bobby's cougar is riding shotgun.
Man, looking back at this, it's amazing the stuff I've forgotten... Did you know you can tear the front of a 4.2 down on the pit of a race track even though you've forgotten your cam timing bar and keep it in time with sets of vice grips and screw drivers :0 wouldn't recommend it, but you can. Do you know you can reseat the belt tensioner with a vice and then use a straightened scrap wire to hold it while you reseat it... Did you know you can change the thermostat and water pump in a hot pit in under 30 minutes... Did you know you can helicoil plug a bullet hole in an engine block that you pulled out of a car that was involved in a police shootout after a pursuit through the streets of Oakland - you can :0 Oh man, I know why we've chosen to forget some of this :) Hope you enjoyed the read Audiziners.

OwwD
02-23-2015, 12:22 AM
Bordom - Somewhere is an actual video of the fire, if I can find it I may post it... It may be too painful still :)

OwwD
02-23-2015, 01:06 AM
Hmm, guessing this should have gone into B5 A4 Projects & Builds - if some Moderator want to move it, feel free

smittyzz
02-23-2015, 05:20 AM
Absolutely love this thread, you guys are crazy but I worship you, now come stuff a v8 in my car lol
I'd love to go race but that takes money and time
I'll have the time when I go overnights at work but don't have the money lol

Makes me wanna do this so bad.

She sounds mean !=)
Hope you guys win a few for me!!

nynoah
02-23-2015, 05:49 AM
AWESOME thread and story. Thank you so much for sharing.

Seerlah
02-23-2015, 07:30 AM
Great read. I enjoyed it. Will watch the video when get home.

GrapeBandit
02-23-2015, 07:57 AM
its so bad, the car tried to kill itself with fire[up]


It's fast, and it looks fast.
http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt258/m1racing_2009/baby-orly.gif~original
[facepalm][confused] needs more downforce(bigger rear wing)


When we go to track days, people will walk past a GT3RS and come over and spend 20 minutes talking to us about it.
http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt258/m1racing_2009/cool_story_bro.jpg
between these 2 statements, i feel like im reading something from a 17yr old on a honduh forum[headbang]

OwwD
02-23-2015, 08:10 AM
GrapeBandit - love it! Actually I'm 43, the prose is really a byproduct of trying to write an entire recollection of events late at night after an exhausting day. I also was reading a thread at the same time written by a 17 year old in Canada so maybe some of the coolness rubbed off on me. As far as the downforce, as someone who spends time at the track, it works. I wasn't sure we could make an impact with the Audi, but we have some shots showing deflection and have worked with some professional teams that state that anything above 70 MPH can be impacted. At Thunderhill we have several turns in excess of 70mph. But maybe I was a little teenish with the looks fast comment. For the record, I did not at any point say it looks furious. I believe the car will try to kill itself again this weekend, fortunately it doesn't have an advanced directive :)

smityzz - yes, it's expensive any way you cut it, and we are on a super budget. We build everything ourselves so it's the donated labor that's a killer. But just outfitting 2 sets of tires for a weekend of racing can add up. For example, while I may not love the overall look of the rear wing, that's what was found in the yard on a donor (a cobra I believe). If anyone here has a nice carbon fiber wing they want to donate, I will be happy to accept it :) I may check on the honduh forum first? ;)

Grape, love the graphic change - my kids will too! :) I was just told by a "kid" here at work it should say "kewl" story bro. Thanks again! I may go back and edit some verbiage, even pull the line you mentioned, but the sad part is that really happened. We pulled in and parked our cheap flatbed trailer in the pits and right next to us a guy pulls in with a 350 king ranch, custom all aluminum race trailer and promptly unloads a new GT3RS (which was stunning, I mean sell your house to think about buying stunning). People at the track get used to seeing these cars, but not a franken-Audi so we ended up with a fairly good sized group checking out our car. The guy with the GT3 (who was a really, really nice guy) and I struck up a conversation and he commented on the group we were pulling to which I replied, "I know, funny isn't it, if we sold our whole car we could maybe buy the custom tools you need to remove your wheels." He was great about it, but people just like seeing something a little crazy and different. I also offered to trade him but he declined.

AudiA4_20T
02-23-2015, 03:19 PM
Good stuff.

coolgraymemo
02-23-2015, 03:37 PM
Keep up the good work OP.

Sounds like a ton of fun.

Now do some donuts in the middle of the highway.


its so bad, the car tried to kill itself with fire[up]

http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt258/m1racing_2009/baby-orly.gif~original
[facepalm][confused] needs more downforce(bigger rear wing)


http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt258/m1racing_2009/cool_story_bro.jpg
between these 2 statements, i feel like im reading something from a 17yr old on a honduh forum[headbang]

Says the sixteen year old.

http://i.imgur.com/QrRTp6I.gif

bhusted
02-23-2015, 04:48 PM
Great story. I had no idea in our PM conversation about the wiring that this is what you were doing with the V8.

smittyzz
02-23-2015, 05:06 PM
GrapeBandit - love it! Actually I'm 43, the prose is really a byproduct of trying to write an entire recollection of events late at night after an exhausting day. I also was reading a thread at the same time written by a 17 year old in Canada so maybe some of the coolness rubbed off on me. As far as the downforce, as someone who spends time at the track, it works. I wasn't sure we could make an impact with the Audi, but we have some shots showing deflection and have worked with some professional teams that state that anything above 70 MPH can be impacted. At Thunderhill we have several turns in excess of 70mph. But maybe I was a little teenish with the looks fast comment. For the record, I did not at any point say it looks furious. I believe the car will try to kill itself again this weekend, fortunately it doesn't have an advanced directive :)

smityzz - yes, it's expensive any way you cut it, and we are on a super budget. We build everything ourselves so it's the donated labor that's a killer. But just outfitting 2 sets of tires for a weekend of racing can add up. For example, while I may not love the overall look of the rear wing, that's what was found in the yard on a donor (a cobra I believe). If anyone here has a nice carbon fiber wing they want to donate, I will be happy to accept it :) I may check on the honduh forum first? ;)

Grape, love the graphic change - my kids will too! :) I was just told by a "kid" here at work it should say "kewl" story bro. Thanks again! I may go back and edit some verbiage, even pull the line you mentioned, but the sad part is that really happened. We pulled in and parked our cheap flatbed trailer in the pits and right next to us a guy pulls in with a 350 king ranch, custom all aluminum race trailer and promptly unloads a new GT3RS (which was stunning, I mean sell your house to think about buying stunning). People at the track get used to seeing these cars, but not a franken-Audi so we ended up with a fairly good sized group checking out our car. The guy with the GT3 (who was a really, really nice guy) and I struck up a conversation and he commented on the group we were pulling to which I replied, "I know, funny isn't it, if we sold our whole car we could maybe buy the custom tools you need to remove your wheels." He was great about it, but people just like seeing something a little crazy and different. I also offered to trade him but he declined.
The way I look at things now is I can go out buy the tools to do the job, read and learn how to do it myself, have the tools and knowledge to do it in the future, and save over half the money I'd be charged. Saves a shot ton of money.

Now that you guys for it down what's the price to repeat this on my car? Lmao
Wish I could see it in person or even take a ride in it

I'm curious, what's the start to finish build time for the v8 swap? Hours into it estimated?

OwwD
02-23-2015, 08:59 PM
Hey bhusted! Yes, crazy build and thank you for the help along the way. You're definitely one of the people I studied. smityzz, answering the "time to build" question is impossible (ask bhusted that one!) there are so many variables. We do everything ourselves nights and weekends, we all have day jobs. Let's take the front crossmember as an example. Do you have a plasma cutter and mig and are you good with them? If so maybe three hours, if not maybe three days :) or pay someone to do it. Our job there was just to be strong and functional, I have seen custom cross members on this board in this type of swap that were jig made tig works of art - how many hours did that take???? It's just impossible to calculate because it has to do with individual skills and access to resources. I was cramming flash tuning, reading and trying to get capable at it and as you can see I'm not typically afraid of DIY, but when you are up against it the night before you have track time reserved, to heck with it, you may need to reach out to an expert and get it done! Lastly, a major impact on how long it takes are personal goals. Meaning, you can pull all nighters for two weeks on a car when you are trying to meet a race deadline, the same project could take two months if it's your second car, that you tinker with on the weekends. I don't know if I'm making a lot of sense, I know you want to know if it took 6 months or 6 weeks or 6 years, but I can't really answer it. I can tell you that 4 days before tech inspection we have opened the valve covers and found a stripped cam cap bolt so we need to fix that tomorrow, then continue work on the brakes... It isn't really done, it may never be :)


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OwwD
02-23-2015, 09:01 PM
Sorry, wrote that wrong, it's a pulled cap helicoil, going to be a pain but we'll repair it tomorrow


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OwwD
02-23-2015, 09:17 PM
Smityzz, Also I should add you should read read read from guys like bhusted and others who have documented builds much better than I. I am happy to tell our story, but don't consider myself an expert - those guys are. We would have really struggled without the detailed work of those that did this before, so read their posts :) if tuning is your thing, there are many forums, I love nefmoto and consider myself the lowest amateur when it comes to what guys are doing over there. I'm always impressed with what people are doing on the boards and don't have anywhere near enough time in my day to learn it all.


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Bordom
02-23-2015, 09:28 PM
Curious, did you guys swap a 40v or 32v into this 96? Are you also running OEM engine management?

OwwD
02-24-2015, 12:15 AM
40v. Thought long and hard on ECU. Thought about VEMS and megasquirt. We've gutted almost all wiring and did some crazy O2 splits, all sorts of custom wiring so going with the stock AWN was concerning but after some work that's what we did. Well, it's not a standard flash but it is an ME7


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smittyzz
02-24-2015, 05:23 AM
I do slot of reading. Then I find more and read it. I can never read enough, I try and find every cause to an issue or all possible solutions.
Me like inputttt
With a baby due may second this won't be happening anytime soon with my car, but maybe when the ol 12v gives out I will

Bordom
02-24-2015, 06:06 AM
32v. Thought long and hard on ECU. Thought about VEMS and megasquirt. We've gutted almost all wiring and did some crazy O2 splits, all sorts of custom wiring so going with the stock AWN was concerning but after some work that's what we did. Well, it's not a standard flash but it is an ME7


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I'm confused with what you're saying. Let me know if I understand this correctly.

You went with a 32v 4.2, yet you went with newer 40v 4.2 engine management?

How did you even work that out?

bhusted
02-24-2015, 07:59 AM
The engine pictured is the 40v V8. I think that was a typo.

OwwD
02-24-2015, 08:26 AM
Yes, sorry, 40v - just got back from a long work/garage day and have to stop the midnight posts. Edited the OP - may be offline for a while, there is still a lot to get done and I'm on a hard deadline


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Bordom
02-24-2015, 08:45 AM
The engine pictured is the 40v V8. I think that was a typo.


Yes, sorry, 40v - just got back from a long work/garage day and have to stop the midnight posts. Edited the OP - may be offline for a while, there is still a lot to get done and I'm on a hard deadline


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Ok, that makes more sense.

Good luck with racing! [drive]

OwwD
03-03-2015, 08:55 PM
Ok, so we packed up everything and headed out to the track, we hit tech and rather than try to explain all the changes and work out the class assignment, we just signed up for the Exception Class. We knew we weren't going to compete to win with the fuel cell cars and we planned to pit a lot to work on setup. To win you really need to drive long sessions and keep the driver out. Friday night after tech we found a problem, split flare on the clutch hard line at the firewall. Oh well, Mike on the team is an amazing mechanic (and world ranked windsurfer but that's another story) so he ripped out the master and booster, pulled the line, cut, flared, bled and we were good to go. Thunderhill is just an amazing track, I have driven a few, but this one was built from the ground up by the SCCA with all sorts of elements borrowed from other tracks and Saturday we had use of the the whole course - almost 5 miles. Sunday we had the back 1/2 while the Ultimate Street Car Challenge filmed on the front half. When Saturday morning came, it was drivers meetings and then off to the grid. We were very fortunate to have the help of an experienced NASA pro driver and team owner Jacques Andres, who worked with us on car setup and driver training and also drove the heck out of the car. A great guy and resource, and his background is incredibly impressive: http://www.baybridge-bimmers-minis.com/about.html We owe him a big thank you! He worked hard to get as much of the understeer out of the Audi design as possible, we were trying to get to a point where we could flick the back end out and drive it around the turns, not something Audis really want to do easily at higher speeds. We have several drivers who have run races in rear wheel drive cars and quattros, some have spent more than enough time on snow, ice, gravel, but the bottom line is to chase a BMW around a tight track just takes more work and technique in an Audi. But, thanks to some decent tire pressure differentiation, driving style adjustments and removal of the rear wing (no extra down force in the back) we eventually got the car pretty sorted. And it was pretty fast, at one point, we had the 3rd or 4th fastest lap out of 40+ teams and ended the day with the 6th fastest lap overall and really good averages. Jacques is the only mini cooper S quattro expert I know of - you must check out his race car:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YL7pURth3o
Amazing. Saturday night, we did nuts-and-bolts checks, fluids, etc. and got ready for Sunday feeling good. Sunday morning we were even faster and held the fastest lap times right from the green flag. The back is a tight technical track and the quattro was finally getting balanced. We ran hard until mid-day, and then we took some rocks to the radiator. We lost water and ran hot. We pitted and swapped radiators quickly but we had run too hot and cooked the head gasket. At this point, with three hours left, we called it a day and packed up, feeling very good overall, but not looking forward to another head gasket set (If there's a vendor here that wants primo sticker placement on the car in exchange for gaskets or head/block milling - feel free to let me know :) )

Ok, if you are stuck in the frozen northeast, or just have some time to kill, here's a link to one session on the long course with the car getting fairly dialed in:

http://youtu.be/g66v2VuLXa4

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-PmG4XXK21FY/VPKhBlqssBI/AAAAAAAAMNQ/W7UGCUY1ZsM/w796-h597-no/IMG_2679.JPG
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-vTggQbvzwuw/VPPwP1sI0nI/AAAAAAAAMP8/Hng1xmgeTE0/w796-h597-no/IMG_2682.JPG
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-umV0P7f83yc/VPPwO5YRMMI/AAAAAAAAMPw/CbnQyQhvIYE/w796-h597-no/IMG_2681.JPG
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-neeojRnb4ZY/VPKhAKZyp3I/AAAAAAAAMNE/2JxO5GlvogU/w1054-h231-no/IMG_2678.JPG


http://youtu.be/RhJKeobHl6I

In the end, while we love it, the Audi is a performance compromise. The understeer makes setup a challenge, next on our project list is a robust system-monitoring build with alarms that talk to both the driver and pits. I may trigger this off the ECU but am more likely to do an Arduino build. If anyone has done something like this, let me know. We may try to bring the engine & trans back further in the car to lesson the weight hanging forward of the axles. I'm guessing we'll need to use a shorter bellhousing/trans combo if we can find one and then some allroad or custom axles to reach forward to the front hubs - again if anyone has done that, let me know. The Audi steering geometry is also not helping it steer in quickly, the knuckles really lay back - not sure what we'll do here, but if anyone has messed with that successfully or quickened the steering rack (replaced) than let me know - we run the rack manually now. Lastly, some type of front splitter to push the front end down. We love coming out of a tight hairpin and spinning tires and being able to crawl all four tires forward, we do not like coming out of the front straight at 120mph, and not feeling 100% sure the front won't push at turn 1. Not the greatest feeling. Overall, great car that's fun to race, and of course there's room to improve - always will be :)

walky_talky20
03-04-2015, 03:02 PM
The B8 chassis reduces the bellhousing > axle output shaft distance by something like 4 inches. I think it *might* bolt up? And you'd need a custom driveshaft - but you'd need one anyway if you want to slide the engine back.

With 4 inches out of the trans and maybe 2 inches by sliding the engine, you'd have plenty of room for fans!

I didn't re-read page 1, but another upgrade that might aid in getting front end lighter is aluminum uprights off the B6 (or some B5 S4 or C5). They also come with muchly lightened hub flanges.

OwwD
03-04-2015, 04:24 PM
Great info, we are already running the lighter uprights and hubs. I am not happy with the Audi steering geometry, but it is what it is. We will look to pull a B8 unit and test it. The custom driveshaft wont be an issue but I am not sure about the trans-to-hub axle shaft distance and angle becoming an issue. Have you heard of anyone addressing it? This vehicle is pushing redline a lot of the time so high RPM combined with high angle could be interesting in a bad way.

jackpot1992
03-04-2015, 08:18 PM
Incredible build. Thanks for sharing!!

OwwD
03-04-2015, 08:20 PM
Glad you like it, I'm honestly leaving out a lot of work but I'm trying to recall as much as I can - thanks again


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OwwD
03-11-2015, 09:48 AM
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-4DJAczzrCbM/VQBuekJK3MI/AAAAAAAAMaU/STlb7r5quBc/w1330-h889-no/DSC_3282.JPG
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-ExsMsF8QlPo/VQBuzRCUMJI/AAAAAAAAMas/-6Er9PuMyRg/w1330-h889-no/DSC_3293.JPG
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-bKSQiDC_L7w/VQBu2FJAiLI/AAAAAAAAMa0/7wTkJoIZsJI/w1330-h889-no/DSC_3294.JPG
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-uwZ_MSccx2s/VQBu6tsGmHI/AAAAAAAAMa8/6swIQM5Fmu4/w1330-h889-no/DSC_3303.JPG

OwwD
03-11-2015, 09:50 AM
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-6czEn0yrut4/VQBvD9W3ZGI/AAAAAAAAMbM/WMh4SDJfMoU/w1330-h889-no/DSC_3313.JPG
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-PDIrEqlzFsY/VQBvXD0FvSI/AAAAAAAAMbk/TziCDleDJX4/w1330-h889-no/DSC_3319.JPG
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-LoF7A1-0TIE/VQBvigOYFoI/AAAAAAAAMb0/sklp6Yj9LiI/w1330-h889-no/DSC_3326.JPG
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-PPpCcWHlZ8Y/VQBvqEmEJ3I/AAAAAAAAMcE/EBWm60Rv50M/w1330-h889-no/DSC_3328.JPG

OwwD
03-11-2015, 09:51 AM
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-J20-suyS_Bw/VQBv8HAukmI/AAAAAAAAMcU/f9d2veQ3I3E/w1330-h889-no/DSC_3339.JPG
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-jyt7TrlSGiw/VQBwCfAxXJI/AAAAAAAAMcc/aOo0MnPfMTk/w1330-h889-no/DSC_3350.JPG