Winter woes - trade F10 M5 for S7?

[MFT]

I started a thread over in the RS5 forum on this topic and got some useful feedback, pointing me towards a S6/S7 rather than an RS5: http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/627371-Trade-2013-M5-for-RS5?p=10314497

In summary, I've had a lot of VAG products over the years (multiple GTIs, B7 RS4, B8 S4 and A4, etc.) but recently traded my 2011 S4 in on a 2013 M5 with 6MT. Now, the M5 is pretty incredible with 560 horses and 500 lb.ft. of torque with a manual transmission, but I didn't count on what a handful it would be driving in the winter (with winter tires obviously). So, I've been contemplating trading in the M5 and going back to Audi. The thing I would miss the most would be the fun of shifting for myself and the dry weather shenanigans of a RWD 560 HP beast. But, the memories of powering through snowy streets in my S4 and RS4 are also tempting.

I'm looking at a straight trade of my 20k km 2013 M5 for a 2014 S7 with similar mileage...any thoughts? Yay, nay...crazy or smart?

As a qualifier, I don't want to get a third car (i.e. winter beater), so that is not an option at this point.

[amelen]

I started a thread over in the RS5 forum on this topic and got some useful feedback, pointing me towards a S6/S7 rather than an RS5: http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/627371-Trade-2013-M5-for-RS5?p=10314497

In summary, I've had a lot of VAG products over the years (multiple GTIs, B7 RS4, B8 S4 and A4, etc.) but recently traded my 2011 S4 in on a 2013 M5 with 6MT. Now, the M5 is pretty incredible with 560 horses and 500 lb.ft. of torque with a manual transmission, but I didn't count on what a handful it would be driving in the winter (with winter tires obviously). So, I've been contemplating trading in the M5 and going back to Audi. The thing I would miss the most would be the fun of shifting for myself and the dry weather shenanigans of a RWD 560 HP beast. But, the memories of powering through snowy streets in my S4 and RS4 are also tempting.

I'm looking at a straight trade of my 20k km 2013 M5 for a 2014 S7 with similar mileage...any thoughts? Yay, nay...crazy or smart?

As a qualifier, I don't want to get a third car (i.e. winter beater), so that is not an option at this point.

Not a great comparison, but I went from a 135i to an A7 because of winter issues. The 135i wasn't usable in the winter, even with winter tires, I found myself stuck every time there was more than 3in of snow.

More recently, I was thinking about getting a winter car and a fun RWD car, but also decided against having multiple cars (and am ordering a 2016 S6).

[moosehead1]

Do it. You're in the Great White North. Winter is a joy, not a woe. When everyone else is snuggling indoors, I'm that guy out romping in the snow. The S7 is the perfect vehicle to catch first chair, and relegated my SUV to mud season only.

IME, Quattro > fishtailing on dry or snowpacked conditions. If you gotta have more HP, the RS7 will work.

[Liquidsystm]

Since you're coming from an M5, keep in mind the S7 only seats 4

[VeryBadman]

Do it. You're in the Great White North. Winter is a joy, not a woe. When everyone else is snuggling indoors, I'm that guy out romping in the snow. The S7 is the perfect vehicle to catch first chair, and relegated my SUV to mud season only.

IME, Quattro > fishtailing on dry or snowpacked conditions. If you gotta have more HP, the RS7 will work.

RS7 has the power of the M5 but it's a counterpart to M6 Grand Coupe so it will be in the same price range as M6 which is more expensive than M5 too.

[demonmk2]

make up the difference and get the rs7. [cool]

[v8a6]

In Toronto today it is a mess outside. 10cm of snow, or something like that.

I have all-seasons on for the first time in years, as I am selling the car and decided not to buy new winter wheels for this car.

I have been looking at some RWD cars to buy for use for temporary use for a few months, and assumed with a good set of snows they would be perfectly fine in the winter.

Coming up Scarlett Rd on a very mild incline today, I see everyone getting out of the curb lane. There is a BMW 745i sliding sideways, trying its hardest to make any forward movement. The same conditions were a piece of cake for the 02 S6 with all seasons. I was pretty surprised.

Now, maybe his tires werent great, but still. After seeing that, I am going to stick to AWD. Only makes sense for a car in Canadian winters.

So, my answer is definitely YES !!!!, trade that RWD car in for something useable and AWESOME!

[rottley]

Its starting to snow here in Baltimore. Have snow car at home cause they predicted no snow. Have the S6 with summer tires. What are my chances of driving 20 miles home. (No hills)

[amelen]

Its starting to snow here in Baltimore. Have snow car at home cause they predicted no snow. Have the S6 with summer tires. What are my chances of driving 20 miles home. (No hills)

My A7 with sports tires did OK in the snow, just have to drive more carefully. The best thing to remember is AWD doesn't help you at all with breaking and only a little bit with turning. Just stop early and turn slowly.

[mmaturo]

Do it. Tune the S7 if it feels a little slow, which it isn't. I think you will find the S7 feels as fast as your M5, the transmission gets it moving well. RS7 is your answer and would abuse your M5 even though same hp. How that hp is delivered is way different. RS7 is nuts fast. When I lived in Chicago for years I enjoyed watching all the BMWs and MBs struggle in the snow. I have had zero issues and often in my RS6 was the only car (non SUV) on the road. Gets through most anything as have all my Audis.

[S4Phantom]

Its starting to snow here in Baltimore. Have snow car at home cause they predicted no snow. Have the S6 with summer tires. What are my chances of driving 20 miles home. (No hills)

Good luck, and just take it slow. Going straight won't be a problem, but stopping and turning could definitely be tough. Summer tires and cold weather/snow just don't mix. I lost control in my S4 last winter when I got stuck at work and it started snowing. Took is slow the 15 miles home and on the last turn onto my street, which I took at about 3mph, lost control and almost took out a sign. Put my winters on the next day

[VeryBadman]

Do it. Tune the S7 if it feels a little slow, which it isn't. I think you will find the S7 feels as fast as your M5, the transmission gets it moving well. RS7 is your answer and would abuse your M5 even though same hp. How that hp is delivered is way different. RS7 is nuts fast. When I lived in Chicago for years I enjoyed watching all the BMWs and MBs struggle in the snow. I have had zero issues and often in my RS6 was the only car (non SUV) on the road. Gets through most anything as have all my Audis.

I like how you phased it and I agreed completely. It's almost unreal for a traditional automatic box though not that traditional to deliver the power like that in RS7. I thought I would miss a feel of DCT in S6 but now I don't miss anything at all. In fact I even prefer this 8 Speed box over S-Tronic since it's much smoother to drive around the town with no jerking whatsoever.

[Nabizzy]

RS7 time!

[VPRS7]

I have had my RS7 for just over a month and drove it during our first snow-fall with the P Zeros on the 21" stock rims and was better off than most other vehicles other than 4x4 SUVs.

Now I have my winter set-up (S7 replicas and Dunlop SP Winter Sport 3D 265/35/20) and drove from mid-town to Mississauga in this mess (still snowing ...BTW). With snow tires on, this car is amazing. I have owned various BMW M-cars and a C63 all of which I ran winters on, but this is the first time I have truly felt comfortable driving in the snow. Changing lanes on the highway is a breeze, accelerating from a stop is decent and overall the car was much more balanced than any RWD car I have owned.

The all-wheel drive and the snow tires are a dream in our Great White North.

Go RS7 and you will not regret it!

[airborne7]

You'll love an S7. If you can afford it, get the RS7. Although, I have a feeling come the summer you'll be missing that MT and start looking for another car...

[v8a6]

Just took a drive and ANOTHER BMW stuck on the side of the road on Eglinton. This time it was a E60 530. Totally flat road and the car is sitting at the side spinning tires and stuck. Everyone else on the packed road is perfectly fine.

I saw a few cars that couldnt make it up hills today, but those two BMWs were the only ones I saw complete stuck.

[MFT]

You'll love an S7. If you can afford it, get the RS7. Although, I have a feeling come the summer you'll be missing that MT and start looking for another car...

A couple of good points here: I'm sure I'll be happy with the S7 (for the winter particularly), but will likely miss the absolute kick-in-the-pants that the RS7 and M5 provide. But, the RS7 is a bit more than I'd like to spend ($15k premium over the S7 in the used market up here)

The other thing is that coming from the smaller GTIs and S4/RS4, I can definitely feel the size and weight of the M5, and I don't suppose the S7 is going to feel any more athletic. That is partly why I had originally thought RS5 because it might be a bit more fun in the corners, but I guess it will be even more lacking in the "kick-in-the-pants" department than the S7. Decisions, decisions...

Plus, there is the big X factor of the manual transmission.

[CanuckRS]

for winter, the S7/RS7 is a no-brainer up here. if you can make the stretch for the RS, it's the way to go, you will not be disappointed.

[tarunck]

Any specific reason to go for an S7 instead of S6? As you know S7 is 110lbs heavier than S6 and is a 4 seater. You can also find a used S6 for a much better price than S7. However S7 is damn sexy and considering the way the power is delivered(yes in stock) you probably might not see much difference in the kick-in-pants(S7 0.1 sec slower to 60 if you really can notice it :) ).
Yes you will immediately feel that S6 or S7 are heavier than S4(i personal own both 2013 S6 and S4) especially during hard turns but in Dynamic mode they are pretty good(still not as nimble as S4). But the uber power from either of these when you kick down is so addictive and you will love it.
Personally I didnt want to take risks with TD1 flag and didnt for a tune but if you are willing to then it changes the beast to an entirely different level and is fast enough as the M5. I know manual transmission is fun to drive but trust me S-tronic is no less especially in Dynamic mode. The shifts are lighting quick which can't be achieved by manual. Also considering the increased of traffic jams during winter Auto would be much less effort.

The car can be driven with summer performance tires in winter but even with the air suspension at full raise level the drive for me was harsh when the temperatures were less than 40F. The car can still pull in the snow but the stopping power is adversely affected(Goodyear Eagle F1 summer tires). I bought a 19" S6 replicas with Blizzak LM-32 and its pretty awesome. The ride quality is like night and day.

personally i think if you are ok with 4 seats and want a sexier car go for S7 and if your budget permits go for an RS7 period. But you won't get disappointed on a APR tuned S6 with a winter set which saves couple more hundreds.

[hodrosS42001]

I like how you phased it and I agreed completely. It's almost unreal for a traditional automatic box though not that traditional to deliver the power like that in RS7. I thought I would miss a feel of DCT in S6 but now I don't miss anything at all. In fact I even prefer this 8 Speed box over S-Tronic since it's much smoother to drive around the town with no jerking whatsoever.

The 8 Speed ZF is far from a "traditional automatic" it has planetary gear sets that make shifts much faster. And the specialized torque converter allows lockup unlike past automatics increasing efficiency. The 8 speed is a unique design, that many other companies are now copying via license from ZF.

[LINDW4LL]

The 8 Speed ZF is far from a "traditional automatic" it has planetary gear sets that make shifts much faster. And the specialized torque converter allows lockup unlike past automatics increasing efficiency. The 8 speed is a unique design, that many other companies are now copying via license from ZF.
I think he realizes that, which is why he said "traditional automatic box though not that traditional to deliver the power like that"

Traditional in the sense that it utilizes a torque converter, "not that traditional" in the ways that you stated.

[saraojo]

If you were to replace it might as well get an rs7 if you are willing to pay the difference. How bad is the m5 in the snow? I was considering it (vs an rs7 but right now a new m5 = used rs7 in price) and putting 19s with Michelin winters. Is it undriveable? Even at low speeds?

[moosehead1]

FWIW, I've been driving the Colorado high alpine for 25 years to snow ski in what most would consider severe winter weather. The most frequent off-the-road, greasy-side-up vehicles, in order of frequency, are: SUV's, pickup trucks, rear wheel drive vehicles, front wheel drive vehicles with summer tires. Many more RWD vehicles simply slide off the road slowly into a guardrail, or get stranded in the middle of the road on the slightest of inclines.

The only exception to crappy handling RWD vehicles during winter are Porsches with studded or aggressive winter rubber. These still work well given their rear-mid weight bias, low slung physics, and great handling so long as they aren't up to the belly in deep snow.

The only real surprise to some people are the 4WD SUV's and pickups, both handle poorly due to being top heavy, and both tend to be driven nearly as fast as our Quattros.

[LINDW4LL]

The only real surprise to some people are the 4WD SUV's and pickups, both handle poorly due to being top heavy, and both tend to be driven nearly as fast as our Quattros.
I think most of the 4WD SUVs instances can be equated to improper tires and/or poor driving. After all, the average soccer mom is likely going to be less competent in bad conditions than an enthusiast in an Audi sedan would be. Then add in the overconfidence from "4WD". I don't really think the top heaviness has much at all to do with it.

Pickup trucks have little weight over the rear wheels so that's not too surprising.


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[moosehead1]

^Top heavy or taller rigs get upside down fast. They also brake poorly/slowly, turn even worse, and the added suspension travel can cause problems when sliding around, including tip in or out. Add overconfidence and you're in the ditch wrong side up. Soccer moms tend to drive a bit slower, with the noted exception of my wife.

[MFT]

If you were to replace it might as well get an rs7 if you are willing to pay the difference. How bad is the m5 in the snow? I was considering it (vs an rs7 but right now a new m5 = used rs7 in price) and putting 19s with Michelin winters. Is it undriveable? Even at low speeds?

My first real experience with it this winter was on a day when everything froze up really quick so there was a lot of ice. I nearly got stuck trying to get up a slight incline with a bunch of cars behind me. I finally got up by turning the traction control off and more or less flooring it. Then I was able to get one side over onto the shoulder where there was more grip and that got me up the rest of the way. Based on past experience, I don't think that would've happened in my S4 or RS4.

So, it really comes down to whether you want to be driving a car with some of the worst traction in the winter (i.e. high HP rear wheel drive with or without winter tires) or driving a car with likely the best traction/grip (i.e. Audi Quattro with winter tires). My wife drives an A4 avant and I had a ton of fun with it last night on my way to hockey...a lot more confidence than in the BMW where I have to tenderfoot it around when the roads are anything more than wet.

If only there was a 6MT option in the Audi lineup more powerful/exclusive than the S4 or S5 and less pricey/impractical than the R8!

[moosehead1]

If only there was a 6MT option in the Audi lineup more powerful/exclusive than the S4 or S5 and less pricey/impractical than the R8!

Hint: You're in the right subforum.

http://i952.photobucket.com/albums/ae6/bsiegel1/Audi/DSC_0011_zps0c1804d9.jpg

http://i952.photobucket.com/albums/ae6/bsiegel1/Audi/image_zps7c9fd3dd.jpg

[saraojo]

My first real experience with it this winter was on a day when everything froze up really quick so there was a lot of ice. I nearly got stuck trying to get up a slight incline with a bunch of cars behind me. I finally got up by turning the traction control off and more or less flooring it. Then I was able to get one side over onto the shoulder where there was more grip and that got me up the rest of the way. Based on past experience, I don't think that would've happened in my S4 or RS4.

So, it really comes down to whether you want to be driving a car with some of the worst traction in the winter (i.e. high HP rear wheel drive with or without winter tires) or driving a car with likely the best traction/grip (i.e. Audi Quattro with winter tires). My wife drives an A4 avant and I had a ton of fun with it last night on my way to hockey...a lot more confidence than in the BMW where I have to tenderfoot it around when the roads are anything more than wet.

If only there was a 6MT option in the Audi lineup more powerful/exclusive than the S4 or S5 and less pricey/impractical than the R8!



I see thanks for the feedback. I guess it can still get a little dicey with snow tires. I had rwd cars before but never had snow tires on them. My Cla has blizzaks now cz the amg sport pkg came with summer tires and they served me well last winter. What winter tires did you have on when you were going up that hill?

As for a practical car with a 6 speed, thats tough. Not many cars are being made in manual anymore. Although dct pdk etc has better performance I have more fun driving a manual vs the pdk in my Porsche or the s stronic r8s I test drove.

[saraojo]

Hint: You're in the right subforum.

http://i952.photobucket.com/albums/ae6/bsiegel1/Audi/DSC_0011_zps0c1804d9.jpg

http://i952.photobucket.com/albums/ae6/bsiegel1/Audi/image_zps7c9fd3dd.jpg

Gorgeous s7. Your winter setup is nice. Tough to beat. How does the summer set up look?

[moosehead1]

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/12/14/341cf79bed8bf1252b4279413e664e10.jpg

Just another Pow Day


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[HeelBuff]

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/12/14/341cf79bed8bf1252b4279413e664e10.jpg

Just another Pow Day


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Killing me. I have to wait till late January.

[DB22]

Gorgeous s7. Your winter setup is nice. Tough to beat. How does the summer set up look?
It looks the same except for the snow.[:)]

[MFT]

I see thanks for the feedback. I guess it can still get a little dicey with snow tires. I had rwd cars before but never had snow tires on them. My Cla has blizzaks now cz the amg sport pkg came with summer tires and they served me well last winter. What winter tires did you have on when you were going up that hill?
As for a practical car with a 6 speed, thats tough. Not many cars are being made in manual anymore. Although dct pdk etc has better performance I have more fun driving a manual vs the pdk in my Porsche or the s stronic r8s I test drove.

The winter tires on the M5 are Pirelli Sottozero II. I had the original Sottozeros on a front-wheel drive Jetta GLI previously and was not impressed with them then either, so maybe it's just the tire. I thought about switching to more aggressive tires, but unfortunately there are very few options available for the stock tire size (255/40/19) and I would be limited to performance winter options only. So, not likely to make a big difference.

[saraojo]

OK thanks for the info. Keep us updated what you decide to go with.

[hilld]

Just get a winter "beater" Golf R and put snow tires on it.