Winter tire decision: Pirelli Winter Sottozero 3 or Michelin Pilot Alpin PA4

[jonpark]

Option #1
http://www.tirerack.com/images/tires/michelin/mi_pilotalpin_pa4_ci2_l.jpg

Size: 245/40R18
Asymmetric
LRR: Green X
Sidewall Style: Blackwall
Serv. Desc: 97V
Load Range: XL
Price: $266.00 (each)
$229.00 (each) Special
Set of 4: $916.00
After mail-in rebate: $846.00

Option #2

http://www.tirerack.com/images/tires/pirelli/pi_win_sot03_ci2_l.jpg
Size: 245/40R18
Sidewall Style: Blackwall
Serv. Desc: 97V
Load Range: XL
Price: $223.00 (each)
Set of 4: $892.00
After mail-in rebate: $822.00

[Wusty]

Nokian Hakka R2

[Ozo8r]

I've had both Pirelli and now Alpins, hard to go wrong either way. The Alpins were sticky on snow covered roads today in Colorado with snow on the road and temps in the teens. I tried to get them to break loose and couldn't.

Lots of fans of the Hakkas on AZ too. But I can't speak for them.

[AWDLover]

I have the pa4s as well in colorado. They did very well in todays light snow. First time i've ever had dedicated winter tires and Im never going back

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747

[tastic]

Both are solid performance winters and either would be a fine choice. However, I'd consider Hankook I*Cept Evo W310. I didn't find the wet/icy/snow performance of the other two to be noticeably better than the Hankooks, which are generally cheaper. Hankook usually has some sort of mail in rebate or prepaid card promo too.

[audistealth]

Aren't those Pirellis new?

[SteveYem]

I'm currently going through the same process, although looking at 255/35/19 sizing. My conclusion so far is that a winter performance tire is more suited to our SE PA winter climate than a dedicated snow tire. Last winter I used Dunlop Wintersport 3D and it was adequate for getting me through the few "major" snow storms we had, and the rest of the time it did very well in the cold temperatures without feeling overly squishy or loud. If I lived someplace that had snow all the time, I would go for a true snow tire.

[Brozee]

Michelin Pilot's would take my vote. Personally I would go with the tried and proven and cheaper dunlops.

[o1turbo30v]

Cant go wrong with either one, based on how much i like the PA3's i would say go with the Michelin's, never was a fan of the Dunlop's.

[MarcWinkman]

Both are a fantastic winter option. I run the PA4 on my S4 and love them. I have a buddy of mine that runs the Sotozero on his TTS and he loves those. From a performance standpoint I think it's safe to say they're as near identical as makes no real difference. Just comes down to what brand you like better. In terms of real world driving, I find the PA4 to be a comfortable ride with plenty of grip and they're not noisy at all in my experience.

[SteveYem]

Michelin Pilot's would take my vote. Personally I would go with the tried and proven and cheaper dunlops.

So you would vote for the Michelin Pilots yet you would go with the tried/proven/cheaper Dunlops?

[drob23]

I have PA4's in 245/40R18 on the S4 along with PA4's on a mk6 GTI in 225/40R18. Both sets easily slide with moderate snow, maybe this is obvious, but I've found the performance in snow "okish". The GTI can get stuck in moderate snow (where it isn't bottoming out). In the dry they are fantastic and both hold the road great. I drove them on a frozen lake and they were OK, again, not fantastic.

If you are really concerned about snow performance, I'd either get a 225/45R18 setup, or get something with better snow performance. I live in MI for what it's worth.

[MrFunk]

What type of conditions do you drive in? Visually option 1 look like a more aggressive pattern for slush and deeper snow. Option 1 looks better for hard packed and ice.
I'm a fan of Blizzak or Nokian tires... not as good in dry for performance (not that they are terrible) but better in adverse snowy conditions (which is where you need them most).

[drob23]

One key point about the PA4 is that as temps rise (say into 50's or 60's) which you might see in the Fall/Spring (shoulder season), the tires don't feel squishy or feel like performance is falling off. So the tire is great if you want a little flexibility.

[SteveYem]

I have PA4's in 245/40R18 on the S4 along with PA4's on a mk6 GTI in 225/40R18. Both sets easily slide with moderate snow, maybe this is obvious, but I've found the performance in snow "okish". The GTI can get stuck in moderate snow (where it isn't bottoming out). In the dry they are fantastic and both hold the road great. I drove them on a frozen lake and they were OK, again, not fantastic.

If you are really concerned about snow performance, I'd either get a 225/45R18 setup, or get something with better snow performance. I live in MI for what it's worth.

This is interesting. There are guys leaving reviews on TireRack saying that the PA4's are incredible in the snow.

I found that my 255/35R19 Dunlop Wintersport 3D last season did very well in a straight line but always felt a little iffy around turns. I think it was the combination of relatively stiff sidewall vs 18" tire, front and rear sway bars, and 3900 lbs not wanting to change direction on a low friction surface. But we got maybe 4 snow accumulations of any significance last season and I felt the 3DS were adequate for getting me where I needed to go slowly but safely. The rest of the time it was pretty cold, and those tires allowed the car to perform nearly as confidently as my summer tires in warm temperatures, without sacrificing the car's aesthetics. That's why I'm thinking I'll go for 19" wheels and tires again this season. I may go with the Pirelli or Michelin options just to try something different.

EDIT: I think this season I'll leave the stock sway bars in. If anything I may swap out the rear one for the Eurocode unit....I'd rather have the car slightly tail-happy in slippery conditions than have it plowing out tangent to the curve.

[drob23]

This is interesting. There are guys leaving reviews on TireRack saying that the PA4's are incredible in the snow.

I found that my 255/35R19 Dunlop Wintersport 3D last season did very well in a straight line but always felt a little iffy around turns. I think it was the combination of relatively stiff sidewall vs 18" tire, front and rear sway bars, and 3900 lbs not wanting to change direction on a low friction surface. But we got maybe 4 snow accumulations of any significance last season and I felt the 3DS were adequate for getting me where I needed to go slowly but safely. The rest of the time it was pretty cold, and those tires allowed the car to perform nearly as confidently as my summer tires in warm temperatures, without sacrificing the car's aesthetics. That's why I'm thinking I'll go for 19" wheels and tires again this season. I may go with the Pirelli or Michelin options just to try something different.

EDIT: I think this season I'll leave the stock sway bars in. If anything I may swap out the rear one for the Eurocode unit....I'd rather have the car slightly tail-happy in slippery conditions than have it plowing out tangent to the curve.
I don't think it's only a question of tire type, but also vehicle (weight and weight distribution) and size of the tire chosen. I told my gf that her gti would be beastly in the snow with the pa4's...but it isn't, she was borderline angry with me after dropping nearly 2k on the setup. I think it would be better with a thinner tire. If I did the s4 pa4 purchase again, I'd get 225's.

Edit - also, keep in mind that last year had the worst snowfall EVAR in MI (on record). So I didn't anticipate so much snow driving...

[Jango3434]

Nokian Hakka R2
+1


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[VenturiRS]

Nokian Hakka R2


+1



+2

[11move]

I have had two sets of Pirelli's sottozero 240's and they were very soft as we have a lot of fluctuating temperatures where I live. The most I could get out of them was two seasons as the tread wear terrible on them. Not sure how these new ones will compare but in general I am staying away from Pirelli. Just got a set of Nokian's and love them.

[Wilbur]

I'm currently going through the same process, although looking at 255/35/19 sizing. My conclusion so far is that a winter performance tire is more suited to our SE PA winter climate than a dedicated snow tire. Last winter I used Dunlop Wintersport 3D and it was adequate for getting me through the few "major" snow storms we had, and the rest of the time it did very well in the cold temperatures without feeling overly squishy or loud. If I lived someplace that had snow all the time, I would go for a true snow tire.

Same here Steve. I've had that Dunlop on 2 or 3 cars and its pretty good. Don't have another reference point . I Gather Blzzak LM 60 is good too. Probably can't go wrong with the two mentioned above.

[tchuck]

I have had pa4s for the last three years on my A4 and they're amazing in rain and snow. Of course you can get any time to slide in snow but these have great traction and are very predictable. Same with the rain. No complaints at all beyond the price.

I'll also second the sentiment that they do not feel squishy at all in warmish climates.

I don't have any experience with the Pirelli's but I did incidentally see a comparison recently in which the Michelins beat hakkas in the snow, which is impressive.

[FrozenCommunist]

Running PA4's right now. No complaints at all.

[adbender]

PA4 are very versatile. I ran a 255 setup through a vicious winter last year with confidence. Dry and wet performance is superb and they are quiet.

[emnahum]

Based on the above comments (and the many other winter tire threads) I just ordered 245/40/18 PA4's from Tire Rack to mount on Alzor replicas. I was considering the Hakka R2s but the performance winter seems like a better bet for where I live. Thanks to everyone for their posts!

[tchuck]

Good call.

[roadkillrob]

That is what I went with, 245/40/18 PA4's from TireRack, just threw them on last night and they drove great today, cold and wet.

[jonpark]

Same here
After listening to what everyone was saying, I'm buying PA4's tonight from discounttiredirect.com

[SteveYem]

Count me in, ordered a set of PA4's in 245/40/18 and will put them on a set of Alzors in 18x8 +35.

[phanker]

The PA4s are awsome in dry or wet conditions. It's so so in snowy conditions where it's ok straightline and not so good around the corners. Its lateral grip is very weak compared to other winter tires I've had in the past. It's likely due to its stiffer unforgiving sidewalls perhaps which gives it good performance in the dry. My co-worker feels the same way with his set on his STI.

[SteveYem]

The PA4s are awsome in dry or wet conditions. It's so so in snowy conditions where it's ok straightline and not so good around the corners. Its lateral grip is very weak compared to other winter tires I've had in the past. It's likely due to its stiffer unforgiving sidewalls perhaps which gives it good performance in the dry. My co-worker feels the same way with his set on his STI.

Does it totally let go in snowy corners and make you slide out? Or just doesn't do quite as well as a snow tire?

[tchuck]

Does it totally let go in snowy corners and make you slide out? Or just doesn't do quite as well as a snow tire?
Fwiw, I don't agree with that review at all. They're great in snow, and most importantly they're predictable.

There's a reason they rate so high among performance winter tires, and it's not because they're good in the rain...
.
http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/11/14/1cf23135bfe12ef5f7c8d1a95c2bfe8b.jpg

[emnahum]

That is what I went with, 245/40/18 PA4's from TireRack, just threw them on last night and they drove great today, cold and wet.


Same here
After listening to what everyone was saying, I'm buying PA4's tonight from discounttiredirect.com


Count me in, ordered a set of PA4's in 245/40/18 and will put them on a set of Alzors in 18x8 +35.

It's a PA4 love fest!

[ptper]

Peelers wrapped in PA4's going on today, will post up my impressions afterword.

[phanker]

I just can't go fast around corners. The S4 is much heavier than my previous cars so that could be the difference also. I will try lowering the tire pressure a bit this winter, especially the rear, to see if it'll help the corners. It's more than sufficient to get through rough conditions though with the S4 AWD.


Does it totally let go in snowy corners and make you slide out? Or just doesn't do quite as well as a snow tire?

[SteveYem]

I just can't go fast around corners. The S4 is much heavier than my previous cars so that could be the difference also. I will try lowering the tire pressure a bit this winter, especially the rear, to see if it'll help the corners. It's more than sufficient to get through rough conditions though with the S4 AWD.

Ok that makes sense. Before my S4 I had a 2004 STi on Michelin x-ice 17" tires which was a much lighter and grippier scenario, so I see where you are coming from.

[adbender]

Peelers wrapped in PA4's going on today, will post up my impressions afterword.

Thats my set-up bro...enjoy

[isles1]

I have had pa4s for the last three years on my A4 and they're amazing in rain and snow. Of course you can get any time to slide in snow but these have great traction and are very predictable. Same with the rain. No complaints at all beyond the price.

I'll also second the sentiment that they do not feel squishy at all in warmish climates.

I don't have any experience with the Pirelli's but I did incidentally see a comparison recently in which the Michelins beat hakkas in the snow, which is impressive.I did not realize the PA4s have been available for that long. I thought they came out around the end of 2012 to replace the PA3s.

[tchuck]

I did not realize the PA4s have been available for that long. I thought they came out around the end of 2012 to replace the PA3s.
I was including this year in that time frame. I've installed them for winter duty three times. In the last three years.

[isles1]

I was including this year in that time frame. I've installed them for winter duty three times. In the last three years.got ya. Based on reviews, it is Good to see that the 4s improved on the 3s.

[phanker]

Interesting. The PA4 also comes with Directional tread in certain sizes. Mine are Asymetrical which may explain crappy lateral grip also.

[sworksone]

I used 19" PA4's all last winter and thought they were a great tire. I was very impressed by how well they performed the few times in deep snow compared to an Xice. While obviously not quite as good, the drop was a lot less than I expected given they're "performance" winters.

[ptper]

Thats my set-up bro...enjoy

Great minds...[:D]

[purelife]

The tire rack test says both the Pirelli and the Michelin are very close in performance.

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/testDisplay.jsp?ttid=181

[emnahum]

Put mine on today and they feel fantastic! Better than the OEM Summer Contis, but perhaps that's because it's 28 degrees....

[jonpark]

I got my PA4 shipped yesterday. Will be installing it this weekend.

[purelife]

Ordered PA4 as well!

[Subsonic]

I've run the PA4's for two seasons now and putting them on again tomorrow morning. I travel in the Rocky Mountains in the winter to go skiing. I've driven them many miles on black ice (I70, twisty mountain roads, uphill, downhill), packed snow, slush, fresh snow, whatever, even in 90+ degree weather (was waiting for my BC Forged and they didn't come in until almost 4th of July but I didn't order until nearly summer lol). I would not hesitate to buy these tires again. They are not a snow tire but they've performed just fine in it for me.

Acceleration on hard pack snow is a joy, stopping performance is pretty good. The only time I've felt uncomfortable is when we get 6"+ of snow, DOT comes out and puts a bunch of the shitty mag chloride garbage down turning it all to slush and water, and I'm trying to make sweeping turns at 20-30MPH (30MPH speed limit). Oversteer was abundant but I blame the excessive slush and the width of the tire (stock, 255/35), did make me a bit nervous though but slowing down a bit fixed it. In fresh snow they're just plain fuuuuun! Break 'em loose when you want to, get traction when you lay off. Deep snow, I dunno, I'm not a snowplow lol


Put mine on today and they feel fantastic! Better than the OEM Summer Contis, but perhaps that's because it's 28 degrees....

That's no joke. Forgot it was only 30 yesterday with my Michelin PSS's (yeah, I like the Michelins on this car) and made a corner downtown (three lane street) with a coworker in the car, meant to just kick the back end out a little bit to show him even though it's AWD it still behaves like RWD to an extent, little goose in 2nd gear (edit:low rpm, 2500ish) and suddenly I was watching the sidewalk starting to come around while cranking the wheel back the other way

[Mrtodd]

I have the PA4's on 18 in. Gunmetal Peeler Replikas and am very impressed with the combo. Looking forward to an Alberta winter in this car on that set-up.

[goondog]

Just put some PA4s on for the winter. Im in mid america so some snowfall, lots of slush and just plain cold weather. Love the feel went with 18s. Havent noticed any main issues from the stock conti 19s.
Got them off tirerack with some anzio turn wheels. Happy with price, weight and look as i dont have to worry about scuffing the wheels instead of my black optics ti wheels.


http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo249/goondongle/Audi%20S4/IMG_2281.jpg (http://s380.photobucket.com/user/goondongle/media/Audi%20S4/IMG_2281.jpg.html)

[DeltaHawk60]

After doing some research and perusing the forums, I think I'm leaning towards a set of PA4s myself but am having a hard time deciding. I live in ND, in town, and although we do get severe cold & wind, we don't really (usually) get a ton of snowfall.

Generally in the winter, I will be driving on mainly plowed (patchy packed snow) roads. I do not believe I need a studless snow / ice tire and that a winter performance tire will be what I want to still get around when poor conditions exist, but not sacrifice the dry handling capability. I understand that when the blizzard / winter storms hit, I'd be better off in something like the Hakka R2s, but roads are generally cleared as severe weather occurs since I live right off a snow route and from there can get pretty much wherever I need.

So I guess I'm just looking for any last input anyone might have with similar conditions before I pull the trigger on the PA4s... thoughts?

[roadkillrob]

I had your exact requirements, I live in Boston, cold most winters but not a lot of snow, mostly drive on bare cold pavement with a little snow pack here an there, so went with the PA4's on 18's last year.

Since I live in Boston and last winter sucked, I got to drive in a lot of snow all the time and they performed really well even in a fair bit of deep snow, so I was very happy with them last winter. They also are quite on pavement and still handle decently sporty unlike my wife's X3 with blizzaks, great in deep snow but not as good on bare pavement and noisy as hell!

[flk]

Have ran many different winter tires over the years and I live in one of the coldest, saltiest and snowiest cities. Nothing impressed me more than my last set of asymmetrical PA4's.
I just ordered the Porsche-spec PA4's this season which will be mounted once the temp drops.

[Bludool]

What pressures are you folks running on the Michelins?
I just swapped the Pilot SS out for my winters, I picked up a set of PA3's with wheels for ?600 this summer. Only had one season's use. Maybe 2000 miles.

[ishowerinjager]

Hak r2

[anerbe]

Interesting. The PA4 also comes with Directional tread in certain sizes. Mine are Asymetrical which may explain crappy lateral grip also.

One thing with AWD is that you will push out a bit more when turning and accelerating (on top of the added front weight). Much like trying to brake while turning, there's only so much overall grip from the tire, and adding any acceleration (or braking) forces on top of turning will cause it to deviate from the path. It's normally not a concern, as you can either input more steering angle to follow the correct path, or use the rear end power to rotate the car a bit more.

I've been driving RWD BMW's with snows for many years prior to this car - turn in was very good, but no chance to add any decent throttle.

[SDV325]

Been running the Sottozero for the past winter and a half, car came with new winters but definitely wouldnt get them again. As they aren't a terrible tire they just dont give the confidence needed in all situations. Definitely going to try the PA4's next go around.

Coming from a Subaru world with PA3's, maybe i have too high expectations but Michelin makes a damn good tire, hard to beat.

[moophone]

I have not driving the S4 in winter yet. Ordered 245/40/18 PA4's with ECS replica alzor 18x8 wheels.

Will post my thoughts when I get it set up.

BTW our winters here in Nova Scotia suck, but I'll be mostly city driving so didn't want to give up too much fun for deep snow that I will rarely see.

[SteveYem]

I have not driving the S4 in winter yet. Ordered 245/40/18 PA4's with ECS replica alzor 18x8 wheels.

Will post my thoughts when I get it set up.

BTW our winters here in Nova Scotia suck, but I'll be mostly city driving so didn't want to give up too much fun for deep snow that I will rarely see.

I have that setup and it treated me very well last year here in southeast Pennsylvania. We do not have constant snow covering, but we get a few good storms per season. I had no problem getting around whatsoever.
Winter mode pic for fun:
http://i.imgur.com/hD74icS.jpg

[Reddington]

Steve - what roof rack system is that? Can two snowboards fit side by side without issue?

[IanCH]

Steve - what roof rack system is that? Can two snowboards fit side by side without issue?

Whispbars! holds 2 snowboards or 6 skis

[Usa]

Cant wait to put on my Hakkapeliitta R2's, so much grip I had trouble breaking the back end loose

[Penguino]

Cant wait to put on my Hakkapeliitta R2's, so much grip I had trouble breaking the back end loose

Good to hear. I just got a new set of R2s put on some Alzor 628 replicas. Went down to 18s for winter mode. Excited to see how it does.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[SportVier]

Hakka R2s here. Unstoppable. [up]

[SteveYem]

Whispbars! holds 2 snowboards or 6 skis

Yep, Whispbar size S5 with Thule Universal racks. Two standard width boards fit side by side.

[moophone]

Steve: Rhat looks sharp. Doesn't look like a "winter" setup at all. Are those ET35? I went with the black style 349 wheels. Will post a pic when I get them on.

[SteveYem]

Steve: Rhat looks sharp. Doesn't look like a "winter" setup at all. Are those ET35? I went with the black style 349 wheels. Will post a pic when I get them on.

Thanks! Yes they are 18x8 et35.

[Usa]

Good to hear. I just got a new set of R2s put on some Alzor 628 replicas. Went down to 18s for winter mode. Excited to see how it does.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Also running 18's on the OEM peelers ... better to run a thinner tire anyways, you'll be happy with its performance.

[AWDLover]

Steve: Rhat looks sharp. Doesn't look like a "winter" setup at all. Are those ET35? I went with the black style 349 wheels. Will post a pic when I get them on.

Here was my winter setup with black alzor 349s 18x8 et 35 w/Michelin Pilot Alpin PA4s (245/40/18) and 5mm spacers in the rear:

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/633/22Pi9a.jpg

[SteveYem]

^ Looks good. Tough and functional. I am planning to run spacers this winter also. Do you recall whether the Alzor wheels have the same beveled edge bore as the OEM wheels, i.e. do I need to use the BFI OEM type 5mm spacers?

[AWDLover]

I don't remember what the bore looked like (have since sold the car), but I was running the ECS 5mm spacers. They're thin enough you don't need hubcentric spcers

[bpang1]

One thing that almost NOBODY mentions is the fact that Michelin is the only (or one of the few) company that puts a treadwear warranty on winter tires...that is a game-changer right there. 6 years and 30,000 miles for winter tires is amazing considering how soft winter rubber compounds are. I have X-ice 3s on my stock 18s and they are amazing. Better than the Bridgestone Blizzak WS70s I had earlier and the Hankook i-pikes I have on a different car.

[Reddington]

I ordered the Hakka R2's. They will be on later this week on my stock 18's. For a winter in western new york these should be great.

[moophone]

Just got the 18x8 Alzor + 245/45/18 PA4's on and they are pretty awesome! No snow yet, temps hovering between -1 and +2 C, but they are really grippy! launches much better than the stock contenentials now (@ these temps it hops like crazy). Maybe a *tiny* bit more bouncey due to the higher aspect ratio, but once I go coilovers next year it wont be an issue. Hope these tires are as much fun (or more so!!) in the snow than dry!

[SportVier]

I ordered the Hakka R2's.

Winner!

http://media.digitalpostercollection.com/2015/09/1936-Hakkapeliitta-Champion-Of-Snowy-Roads-Nokia.jpg