More boost? Custom pulley?

[S5DUBAI]

I'm thinking of making a custom smaller pulley for more boost, I'm currently using AWE with Giac tune and boost is somewhere around 18psi. My question is it a good idea to go a bit higher? 25psi? And whats really the limit of the engine? Any help

[Colozeus]

http://i.imgur.com/aVZgT.gif

[roger v]

The engine should be fine up until about 35 pounds or so

[RainJer]

I'm thinking of making a custom smaller pulley for more boost, I'm currently using AWE with Giac tune and boost is somewhere around 18psi. My question is it a good idea to go a bit higher? 25psi? And whats really the limit of the engine? Any help

It may just be safer to do the Porsche Turbo conversion... essentially it is a kit designed to assist you with driving your Audi to the dealership and trading it in for a Porsche Turbo. I don’t have dyno charts on the power increase, but I believe it will keep you from shooting a cylinder head through your hood.

Keep me posted.

[roger v]

It may just be safer to do the Porsche Turbo conversion... essentially it is a kit designed to assist you with driving your Audi to the dealership and trading it in for a Porsche Turbo. I don’t have dyno charts on the power increase, but I believe it will keep you from shooting a cylinder head through your hood.

Keep me posted.

I LOLed

[S5DUBAI]

@colozeus LOL I hope you are not being sarcastic

@roger V, thanks a lot I'm just looking for something around 25psi, for now.

@rainJer nah where is the fun in that? I owned a porsche turbo 997.1, and I'm happier with my Audi! I own a weismann MF5 GT with V8 twin turbo ( from the new BMW M5) she is a bit sick now but again where is the fun? I prefer to stick to my Audi and see where I end up. As a backup my 5.0 Mustang 2015 should be here in 3 months LOL

[1MORLAP]

I'm thinking of making a custom smaller pulley for more boost, I'm currently using AWE with Giac tune and boost is somewhere around 18psi. My question is it a good idea to go a bit higher? 25psi? And whats really the limit of the engine? Any help

Sorry mate, you are dealing with a bunch of kids here. Supercharger can only spin so fast before it creates too much heat, and has reliability issues, so understanding the limit there is important. Secondly, the pulley can only be so small before it starts to slip. I am pretty sure that, it is as small as it can be. But, you can increase the size of the other pulley (crank shaft I think) or do both! So if the limiting factor today is the supercharger, then you are stuck. If it is the pulley itself, then doing the crank would help. ASP, AutoSpeed have done, that but very few people were running their setup.

If you are serious, call Mark at AutoSpeed Performance and see if you can get his pulley. Then find a shop that will tune your car. This would be interesting, but I have a feeling you would overwork the supercharger...

T

[MVR 155]

As you increase boost (especially adding another 7psi) you will need proper tuning, the program you are running now is tailored to the current pulley size and boost pressure. Adding another 7psi will call for more fuel, possibly less timing, etc...... You will need to begin thinking about things like injector duty cycle if the stock injectors are even up to the task, is the fuel pump/system up to the task. Another thing is that there is a certain point that the supercharge wont make any more power as it's maxed out, spinning it faster may make for more boost down in the lower RPM's but it may not have the capability to move any additional air in the upper RPM range...... I'm not sure what the limits of the stock charger are but it's something that you will need to keep in mind....... Obviously at this stage of the game you need to be cognizant of all these things, you can't just slap on a different pulley and not compensate for it.

[RainJer]

@rainJer nah where is the fun in that? I owned a porsche turbo 997.1, and I'm happier with my Audi! I own a weismann MF5 GT with V8 twin turbo ( from the new BMW M5) she is a bit sick now but again where is the fun? I prefer to stick to my Audi and see where I end up. As a backup my 5.0 Mustang 2015 should be here in 3 months LOL

Just having some fun with you. Honestly though, I am not sure the stock internals could handle that much boost. If you have "race cars" in the garage already, why not keep this one reliable?

[BoostEasy]

The Eaton TVS 1320, as do all the TVS series, only runs to about 2.4 Pressure Ratio. That means whatever your atmo is, x 1.4 or about 20.6psi at sea level.

Keep in mind, this pushes a lot of heat and that is, IMO, the biggest problem this engine has to deal with- small, short heat exchangers that need to deal with 260-300'F + discharge temps to see up around 16-20psi with inlet temps in the 70'F range.

A quick run through my supercharger discharge temp spreadsheet at 62.5% efficiency (see the TVS maps on eaton.com (http://www.eaton.com/Eaton/ProductsServices/Vehicle/Superchargers/tvs-supercharger/index.htm), 70'F inlet for 20.5psi pre-intercooler you should see about 307'F discharge. at 90'F inlet it's 336'F (good temp for roasting a nice pork roast. yum).

I'm not sure what your post-intercooler boost would be, but it would probably drop around 1.5-2psi, perhaps more.

So the problem is, even if you could make the boost- and the TVS probably can't because of pressure ratio limits in the design per Eaton- you're going to need a hell of an intercooler to chill it down so you can use it.

The 2015 BMW M4's S55 is a 3.0L, DI (turbo) boosted engine like the 3.0T but so far those guys have been able to run flat-out 1/2mi airstrip events at (tuned) 25psi in 70-80F temps and IAT stayed under 125'F. We're nowhere near able to do that with the 3.0T because of it's heat exchanger/IC design, IMO.

[NWS4Guy]

1) Current undersized pulleys from aftermarket merchants already run the SC at the recommended max speed per Eaton.

2) SC's have efficiency ranges, spinning them faster after a point, lowers the efficiency and will result in the heat produced during compression will actually give lower overall returns as a result

3) Research on your own before posting. Eaton has above references efficiency charts - you should go look at these and understand them before putting up a post about something like this, as it shows you don't really understand what you are doing, and will likely destroy some part of the engine.

Not trying to flame, just being very candid and honest.

[DatBigDude]

Honestly, i dont think the limitations have been pushed yet for this supercharger. I just bought this car and felt like i would need to be the innovator and tester of sorts. From what i gather, most people are pretty reliant on the limitations set by the big names in the industry. I for one would love to see a bigger crank pulley slapped on there with a tune to see what she makes. Ofcourse once heating becomes an issue some boring inside the supercharger casing may be in order. From what i can see, the biggest limitation is the after-cooling components. Just doesnt seem as efficient as it should and maybe could be.

Not a clue how the fueling would workout, again... I just got this bad boy a little over a week ago. I do however plan on tinkering a bit. Maybe a little meth after you source that crank pulley upgrade? The Q5 crank pulley would be a good place to start looking...

[DatBigDude]

The Eaton TVS 1320, as do all the TVS series, only runs to about 2.4 Pressure Ratio. That means whatever your atmo is, x 1.4 or about 20.6psi at sea level.

Keep in mind, this pushes a lot of heat and that is, IMO, the biggest problem this engine has to deal with- small, short heat exchangers that need to deal with 260-300'F + discharge temps to see up around 16-20psi with inlet temps in the 70'F range.

A quick run through my supercharger discharge temp spreadsheet at 62.5% efficiency (see the TVS maps on eaton.com (http://www.eaton.com/Eaton/ProductsServices/Vehicle/Superchargers/tvs-supercharger/index.htm), 70'F inlet for 20.5psi pre-intercooler you should see about 307'F discharge. at 90'F inlet it's 336'F (good temp for roasting a nice pork roast. yum).

I'm not sure what your post-intercooler boost would be, but it would probably drop around 1.5-2psi, perhaps more.

So the problem is, even if you could make the boost- and the TVS probably can't because of pressure ratio limits in the design per Eaton- you're going to need a hell of an intercooler to chill it down so you can use it.

The 2015 BMW M4's S55 is a 3.0L, DI (turbo) boosted engine like the 3.0T but so far those guys have been able to run flat-out 1/2mi airstrip events at (tuned) 25psi in 70-80F temps and IAT stayed under 125'F. We're nowhere near able to do that with the 3.0T because of it's heat exchanger/IC design, IMO.

Now thats some good, useful information right there... Now whose willing yo gut her out and see what can be done with that heat exchanger design? Anyone on here any good with a welder?

[integroid]

I LOLed

+2

[integroid]

Now thats some good, useful information right there... Now whose willing yo gut her out and see what can be done with that heat exchanger design? Anyone on here any good with a welder?

Pretty certain the intercoolers and the supercharger is one package deal. Hence why no has made an aftermarket alternative and has just made better heat exchangers that mount up front.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zKjp_OZN34

Link should help explain.

[NWS4Guy]

Pretty certain the intercoolers and the supercharger is one package deal. Hence why no has made an aftermarket alternative and has just made better heat exchangers that mount up front.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zKjp_OZN34

Link should help explain.

Not really, the same SC is on the Lotus Evora S, which has no intercooling AT ALL. Audi built the package we have in regards to fitting it into the vee of the engine, and ensuring the hood would close by incorporating the IC's into the housing for the intake runners.



Honestly, i dont think the limitations have been pushed yet for this supercharger. I just bought this car and felt like i would need to be the innovator and tester of sorts. From what i gather, most people are pretty reliant on the limitations set by the big names in the industry. I for one would love to see a bigger crank pulley slapped on there with a tune to see what she makes. Ofcourse once heating becomes an issue some boring inside the supercharger casing may be in order. From what i can see, the biggest limitation is the after-cooling components. Just doesnt seem as efficient as it should and maybe could be.

Not a clue how the fueling would workout, again... I just got this bad boy a little over a week ago. I do however plan on tinkering a bit. Maybe a little meth after you source that crank pulley upgrade? The Q5 crank pulley would be a good place to start looking...



RE: Crank pulley: Horrible idea. Reducing the SC pulley is much faster and safer. Anytime you are effing with the crank pulley and don't get things perfect due to the harmonic balancing, you will destroy an engine fast. Again research before replying might help.
Reading material from noted BMW tuner Steve Dinan: http://www.atiracing.com/products/dampers/damper_dinan.htm

RE: Handling heat by boring inside the casing - I honestly don't even know what you are suggesting here. Maybe a poorly worded port and polish? The opening size and shape on the TVS supercharger series is about as aggressive as you can get. People who have opened the port more and polished it have seen meager if any returns on that investment.

RE: heat in general, it's possible to potentially squeeze a little better cooling from the intercoolers, but ultimately it will stop being able to handle heat as the loop soaks more and more into it (The threshold for this will depend on ambient air temps and airflow over the heat exchanger, not to mention taking cues from the design of the heat exchanger, pump flow of coolant and other factors like laminar flows into account). You kind of have to figure out things like fueling, as if you are going to put more oxygen into the cylinders, the ECU and fueling have to know how much and understand it, as well as having mappings for F:A in order to act on it.

[AQuattro]

I'm thinking of making a custom smaller pulley for more boost, I'm currently using AWE with Giac tune and boost is somewhere around 18psi. My question is it a good idea to go a bit higher? 25psi? And whats really the limit of the engine? Any help

Don't you think there's a reason AWE, APR and Revo pulleys are all the same size? Wouldn't at least one of them have gone smaller if it was a good idea?

[BoostEasy]

Now thats some good, useful information right there... Now whose willing yo gut her out and see what can be done with that heat exchanger design? Anyone on here any good with a welder?

You might squeak out some gains with totally different intercooler heat exchangers and doing a bit of work to the whole system but it would be quite an undertaking ( a bit more than the current CPS offerings) and not cheap for likely modest gains.

The easier path is likely meth/water injection but the tuning is an issue too. With canned tunes there's just so much you can do (need to raise timing and get more integration between tune and W/I).

The custom tune is the key. Get Cobb or someone to support the platform and a lot more stuff suddenly becomes possible as the truth about what the engine can and can't do well suddenly comes to light. We're nowhere near that yet so the platform is just treading water unless you're measuring times in cold weather only.

[roger v]

Not really, the same SC is on the Lotus Evora S, which has no intercooling AT ALL. Audi built the package we have in regards to fitting it into the vee of the engine, and ensuring the hood would close by incorporating the IC's into the housing for the intake runners.






RE: Crank pulley: Horrible idea. Reducing the SC pulley is much faster and safer. Anytime you are effing with the crank pulley and don't get things perfect due to the harmonic balancing, you will destroy an engine fast. Again research before replying might help.
Reading material from noted BMW tuner Steve Dinan: http://www.atiracing.com/products/dampers/damper_dinan.htm

RE: Handling heat by boring inside the casing - I honestly don't even know what you are suggesting here. Maybe a poorly worded port and polish? The opening size and shape on the TVS supercharger series is about as aggressive as you can get. People who have opened the port more and polished it have seen meager if any returns on that investment.

RE: heat in general, it's possible to potentially squeeze a little better cooling from the intercoolers, but ultimately it will stop being able to handle heat as the loop soaks more and more into it (The threshold for this will depend on ambient air temps and airflow over the heat exchanger, not to mention taking cues from the design of the heat exchanger, pump flow of coolant and other factors like laminar flows into account). You kind of have to figure out things like fueling, as if you are going to put more oxygen into the cylinders, the ECU and fueling have to know how much and understand it, as well as having mappings for F:A in order to act on it.

GMG does offer a harmonically balanced crank pulley that you can use for Stage 2 instead of the smaller diameter S/C pulley. Haven't seen much real world data surrounding this setup though.

[DatBigDude]

You might squeak out some gains with totally different intercooler heat exchangers and doing a bit of work to the whole system but it would be quite an undertaking ( a bit more than the current CPS offerings) and not cheap for likely modest gains.

The easier path is likely meth/water injection but the tuning is an issue too. With canned tunes there's just so much you can do (need to raise timing and get more integration between tune and W/I).

The custom tune is the key. Get Cobb or someone to support the platform and a lot more stuff suddenly becomes possible as the truth about what the engine can and can't do well suddenly comes to light. We're nowhere near that yet so the platform is just treading water unless you're measuring times in cold weather only.

The canned tunes are a serious limitation and i can only hope that its is only a temporary setback. This is my first Euro Car and the only conclusion ive arrived at is "this is just how Euro cars are tuned". Since you mention something like an Accessport adaptation for the B8, is something that has been adapted for the Euro Market in the past? I can only hope and keep my fingers crossed because if that were the case that would open up a world or options and make this platform that much more appealing to other companies to have reason to get their hands dirty in a b8. I hear what your saying about limited gains with custom made blower cases, I understand how that may actually be more trouble than it would be worth. But if not cases, Inlets? Throttle Bodies? Im sure it has already been tried and tested and i just havent stumbled upon that secton in this forum but from what i have found on here so far, everyone is very satisfied and complacent with the very high priced options available right now.


Not really, the same SC is on the Lotus Evora S, which has no intercooling AT ALL. Audi built the package we have in regards to fitting it into the vee of the engine, and ensuring the hood would close by incorporating the IC's into the housing for the intake runners.






RE: Crank pulley: Horrible idea. Reducing the SC pulley is much faster and safer. Anytime you are effing with the crank pulley and don't get things perfect due to the harmonic balancing, you will destroy an engine fast. Again research before replying might help.
Reading material from noted BMW tuner Steve Dinan: http://www.atiracing.com/products/dampers/damper_dinan.htm

I have increased crank pulley sizes on other applications with no negative affects in the long term. I believe all modern engines are "internally balanced" this day in age. This is a topic that has been beaten to death on multiple forums for multiple platforms and there isnt really any hardcore evidence of the seemingly inevitable demise from running aftermarket crank pulleys. I have not yet clicked your link and read thru but i will after this post.

RE: Handling heat by boring inside the casing - I honestly don't even know what you are suggesting here. Maybe a poorly worded port and polish? The opening size and shape on the TVS supercharger series is about as aggressive as you can get. People who have opened the port more and polished it have seen meager if any returns on that investment.

As far as this point, i have no doubt in my mind that you may be right, but i also have learned to try things out for myself b4 assuming everyones fears on forums are the correct one. I have heard "this is engineered to its limits" many times in the passed and realized other wise when 5 years down the line the primary design is proven completely obsolete by people who are willing to test and push the boundaries. Again, you can and probably are right, but i would like to see it first.I honestly havent even checked the hood to supercharger clearance for myself to give and honest educated opinion on this, just saying, Maybe there is room for some bigger cores underneath that TVS?

RE: heat in general, it's possible to potentially squeeze a little better cooling from the intercoolers, but ultimately it will stop being able to handle heat as the loop soaks more and more into it (The threshold for this will depend on ambient air temps and airflow over the heat exchanger, not to mention taking cues from the design of the heat exchanger, pump flow of coolant and other factors like laminar flows into account). You kind of have to figure out things like fueling, as if you are going to put more oxygen into the cylinders, the ECU and fueling have to know how much and understand it, as well as having mappings for F:A in order to act on it.

This goes back to Boost Easy's statement... Were pretty much absolutely limited to these can based stage tunes until someone answers the call and gives us what we need to properly tune these machines. I have hope that it will come some day. It almost always does doesn't it?

Disclaimer: I have no idea if my hopes for a fully tunable ecu is even plausible as i have no clue about the previous chasis aftermarket support for Audis or any Euro platform in general. I am completely wet behind the ears in this sense but thoroughly looking forward to learning everything and anything i can.

[skiracerblah]

It may just be safer to do the Porsche Turbo conversion... essentially it is a kit designed to assist you with driving your Audi to the dealership and trading it in for a Porsche Turbo. I don’t have dyno charts on the power increase, but I believe it will keep you from shooting a cylinder head through your hood.

Keep me posted.

You're doing it wrong. All you simply need is an electronic boost controller like this

http://ep.yimg.com/ay/supra/hks-evc-6-electronic-boost-controller-9.gif

[NWS4Guy]

GMG does offer a harmonically balanced crank pulley that you can use for Stage 2 instead of the smaller diameter S/C pulley. Haven't seen much real world data surrounding this setup though.

Yep, and much of what I said is captured in that thread. People asked why they would go through the pain and potential massive issues of swapping a crank pulley, when it's easier and safer to pull and replace the SC pulley.

[integroid]

Not really, the same SC is on the Lotus Evora S, which has no intercooling AT ALL. Audi built the package we have in regards to fitting it into the vee of the engine, and ensuring the hood would close by incorporating the IC's into the housing for the intake runners.

Yeah, I know this but how are you going to upgrade the intercoolers with the stock blower housing? and if you could, do you really think it would be worth the time and money vs gains in power?

[roger v]

Yep, and much of what I said is captured in that thread. People asked why they would go through the pain and potential massive issues of swapping a crank pulley, when it's easier and safer to pull and replace the SC pulley.

Do you have a link to that thread?

[shadycrew31]

Last I checked the crank pulley did not work.

[spawn350]

Hood nostrils will get you sorted. Ask Skywagon - he is running 180 degrees cooler now. Fact.

[1MORLAP]

Yep, and much of what I said is captured in that thread. People asked why they would go through the pain and potential massive issues of swapping a crank pulley, when it's easier and safer to pull and replace the SC pulley.

Because you can spin the supercharger faster with a crank pulley. Now, I do not know if you want to spin it faster. But that is why people would go that route. If the size of an aftermarket pulley is limited by mechanics of the belt, and not by the Supercharger, crank pulley would solve that. He asked how to make it spin faster, and that is how. I don't think you can shrink the pulley anymore.

[audistealth]

Swank would have loved this thread.

[NWS4Guy]

Do you have a link to that thread?

Is the search on here really all complex?

http://www.audizine.com/forum/search.php?searchid=4990344

There are numerous posts from that search talking about it, no software for it, did the launch slip, and others.


Yeah, I know this but how are you going to upgrade the intercoolers with the stock blower housing? and if you could, do you really think it would be worth the time and money vs gains in power?

I highly doubt you would get much if any more out of it - there is a reason Eaton posts the efficiency maps, and if it were better AND cheaper? Well I would think one or all the aftermarket companies would have done that first.


Because you can spin the supercharger faster with a crank pulley. Now, I do not know if you want to spin it faster. But that is why people would go that route. If the size of an aftermarket pulley is limited by mechanics of the belt, and not by the Supercharger, crank pulley would solve that. He asked how to make it spin faster, and that is how. I don't think you can shrink the pulley anymore.

You can certainly spin it faster with the SC pulley shrinking. It's a 7 or 9 rib belt (I forget which), there is a lot of meat there and slippage is not that big of an issue. IIRC either the REVO or GIAC is smaller than the APR one, so you can definitely go smaller still. As I also said, these aftermarket pulleys already use up the small margin of safety left on the table by Audi for keeping the SC under the Eaton 18,000 RPM max speed rating for it, so at that point what are you gaining? Making less boost with more compression heat that the IC's cannot handle, as well as drastically shortening the life of the SC? Sounds like a winning combo to me.

[BoostEasy]

The canned tunes are a serious limitation and i can only hope that its is only a temporary setback. This is my first Euro Car and the only conclusion ive arrived at is "this is just how Euro cars are tuned". Since you mention something like an Accessport adaptation for the B8, is something that has been adapted for the Euro Market in the past? I can only hope and keep my fingers crossed because if that were the case that would open up a world or options and make this platform that much more appealing to other companies to have reason to get their hands dirty in a b8. I hear what your saying about limited gains with custom made blower cases, I understand how that may actually be more trouble than it would be worth. But if not cases, Inlets? Throttle Bodies? Im sure it has already been tried and tested and i just havent stumbled upon that secton in this forum but from what i have found on here so far, everyone is very satisfied and complacent with the very high priced options available right now.


German cars may tend to use more German parts, but they still use CAN bus to integrate most of the powertrain (and other) electronic modules and the main entry point into that network is the ODB plug. So tools that flash through the OBD will work as with other cars. I tend to agree that people here seem to be ok with paying a substantial premium for OTS tunes.

You could see some small gains (10-20WHP?) if you went with a larger TB and may ported the inlet of the blower case slightly but each has it's drawbacks.

The OEM TB is perfectly matched to an intermediate plate and the SC with basically no room to widen it before you hit a rubber o-ring gasket. So you'd need to upsize the plate, o-ring and port match the blower. Then you'd have to deal with the throttle ramp rate (airflow vs throttle position) and if it would upset the ECU or possibly cause minor drivability concerns at part-throttle. Then you'd need to get an upsized intake pipe sized for that TB. I'm fairly certain it can be done as there are plenty of larger TBs all made by Siemens/Conti like the one on the 3.0T, but again, gains may only be minor like 10WHP. Only one way to find out.

To port the blower inlet would be tricky and, depending on what you need to do, you may have to disassemble the unit and even saw off the inlet, port and then weld it back on. People have done it with some other blowers so it's not impossible, just $ and possible weld beads on your blower. Eaton claims there is nothing to be gained but I tend to be skeptical as I'm actually an experienced 'porter' having ported dozens of heads/intakes as well as headers/turbos etc over 15 years ago. I tend to think the gains will be small and that one will need to saw off the SC inlet, disassemble the SC internals, port/flow/test weld the inlet back on, check the case for straightness and reinstall the SC internals.

[Docwyte]

If you want to push the limits, prepare for expensive things to happen. Otherwise, leave it be and enjoy the car as is.

[DGVR6]

This guy is from Dubai.. He prolly doesn't care about money.

[Dr GP]

Sorry mate, you are dealing with a bunch of kids here. Supercharger can only spin so fast before it creates too much heat, and has reliability issues, so understanding the limit there is important. Secondly, the pulley can only be so small before it starts to slip. I am pretty sure that, it is as small as it can be. But, you can increase the size of the other pulley (crank shaft I think) or do both! So if the limiting factor today is the supercharger, then you are stuck. If it is the pulley itself, then doing the crank would help. ASP, AutoSpeed have done, that but very few people were running their setup.

If you are serious, call Mark at AutoSpeed Performance and see if you can get his pulley. Then find a shop that will tune your car. This would be interesting, but I have a feeling you would overwork the supercharger...

T


I was also going to recommend that you call, Mark. I know he made a pulley for bpp to use on his Beta testing unit on his b8. Saw it in person. Made out of billet alum. BUT, not sure Mark knows performance shops in Dubai. Perhaps he does. Call Mark and mention bpp's silver B8

[Dirty Jersey]

I'm thinking of making a custom smaller pulley for more boost, I'm currently using AWE with Giac tune and boost is somewhere around 18psi. My question is it a good idea to go a bit higher? 25psi? And whats really the limit of the engine? Any help


I'm pushing 16 psi with APR tune.....smh

[Boris]

I'm thinking of making a custom smaller pulley for more boost, I'm currently using AWE with Giac tune and boost is somewhere around 18psi. My question is it a good idea to go a bit higher? 25psi? And whats really the limit of the engine? Any help


just go for it. for years it's always the same thing, someone suggests something like you and you get this classic breakdown- most people just say things like just leave it stock you'll blow your engine, another group always just makes a joke of it, and then there's always a handful of others who offer more technical explanations but generally discourage whatever the idea is, but the bottom line is pretty much nobody on here knows the real answer, no one has personally changed the diameter to whatever you are planning and ran custom software, they havent , they're just projecting based on what we have to go on, which is fine, but if you are willing to experiment you should.

no one on here except the twin charging company that has actually pushed the limit to failure knows where the stock engine has a weakness and they aren't disclosing it for reasons I understand. apr knows as well, but good luck getting any info from them

I bet theres a little more on the table at the ragged edge. consult with Tony at EPL or someone at ASP , Im sure if you are comfortable being the guinea pig and are willing to pay for custom maps they will accommodate, good for you for even thinking of pushing it further.

but whatever you do, make sure to share results here.

[Jones2012s4]

I was the first AFAIK to install methanol injection into my car. Lots of users who obviously know nothing told me I was going to blow something up, they obvious knew nothing about methanol injection. I have been enjoying running my race file almost 24/7 with pump gas in the tank.

Over 20,000 miles and no issues. I say go for it, just need to find a tuner to support it. I don't feel we have reached the limit yet, it's all down to tuning, and torque.

[Docwyte]

Nothing wrong with pushing the limit, just expect to blow stuff up and have to pay for it. If you're unwilling/unable to do that, then stick with known mods that work.

[shadycrew31]

If you want a faster car buy a faster car, the engine costs $16k if you have that kind of money to throw around just buy an RS5.

[slowbmw]

Another option to consider (removing myself from the war of supercharger pulley size) is pulling the stock supercharger off of the top of the engine and inserting a CAD designed inter stage intercooler. This would increase the thermal transfer of heat from the compressed air coming out of the supercharger. Then, tap the coolant lines and plum them into your homemade intercooler. Your main concerns at this point would be materials of the intercooler being inside your engine, and flow characteristics of the compressed air. Once a certain temperature air at a specific pressure undergoes a rapid decrease in temperature you can have what is called "knockout." Knockout is when the moisture in the air condenses due to PvT charts @RH(specific) and in simple terms..turns into drops of water dripping off the heat exchanger.

Doing this setup will actually yield noticable gains...and if you decide to twincharge...you may see further gains in Power. Remember HP is proportional to Head, and Head is proportional to temperature. Thus, the decrease in discharge temperature (from the supercharger) and into the engine can yield you large gains...based on a couple other variables like PR (pressure ratio).

Lastly, these are the types of things you should be considering. Just thinking that throwing a smaller pulley and calling it a day will work, is not how its done. There are mechanical limits of all systems, you need to consider the limits of the scroll bearings, the hydrailic fit on the pulley itself, component stresses, cyclical loading, thermal transfer of energy...and most importantly efficent flowpath of air.

If you are ballsy enough and really want to look into this...I am a compressor engineer for a large turbomachinery company. I could do the thermal calculations for you to determine your projected efficiency and necessary paramaters, but you must keep in mind, there are a lot of technical specs needed from Eaton that they may or may not release. just my opinion.

[spawn350]

My serious response to this is that another pulley and software isn't going to cut it. I am sure you can get a LOT more power out of this motor, but that is going to take a LOT more money to proactively replace the internals - a lot of which isn't going to be off the shelf. That doesn't address the driveline that may or may not need to be beefed up (maybe possible to put in parts from Audi cars that are putting down a lot more power??). And of course, cooling is going to be a huge issue and I don't know where you could even fit custom cooling components without a custom made hood that would look retarded.


I can totally relate though and went this path myself with my G37. The tuner had my car for 9 months for a totally new concept....and had my $30K that I paid up front. At the end of the day it failed, which is probably a good thing. I would have made the car almost un-sellable. In reality, I should have just gotten a slightly used GT-R and done a tune on it and been happy.

I applaud your thinking, but with the money, risk, and inevitable downtime involved (and considering anything you do will have no resale value and will make your car REALLY hard to sell) you might be better served by just getting a faster car or being content with this one while the companies do development on their own cars and not yours.

[BoostEasy]

Another option to consider (removing myself from the war of supercharger pulley size) is pulling the stock supercharger off of the top of the engine and inserting a CAD designed inter stage intercooler. This would increase the thermal transfer of heat from the compressed air coming out of the supercharger. Then, tap the coolant lines and plum them into your homemade intercooler. Your main concerns at this point would be materials of the intercooler being inside your engine, and flow characteristics of the compressed air. Once a certain temperature air at a specific pressure undergoes a rapid decrease in temperature you can have what is called "knockout." Knockout is when the moisture in the air condenses due to PvT charts @RH(specific) and in simple terms..turns into drops of water dripping off the heat exchanger.

Doing this setup will actually yield noticable gains...and if you decide to twincharge...you may see further gains in Power. Remember HP is proportional to Head, and Head is proportional to temperature. Thus, the decrease in discharge temperature (from the supercharger) and into the engine can yield you large gains...based on a couple other variables like PR (pressure ratio).

Lastly, these are the types of things you should be considering. Just thinking that throwing a smaller pulley and calling it a day will work, is not how its done. There are mechanical limits of all systems, you need to consider the limits of the scroll bearings, the hydrailic fit on the pulley itself, component stresses, cyclical loading, thermal transfer of energy...and most importantly efficent flowpath of air.

If you are ballsy enough and really want to look into this...I am a compressor engineer for a large turbomachinery company. I could do the thermal calculations for you to determine your projected efficiency and necessary paramaters, but you must keep in mind, there are a lot of technical specs needed from Eaton that they may or may not release. just my opinion.

I'm not sure I follow what you're proposing here: adding another heat exchanger inside the stock SC casing or inserting some sort of plate with HE between the stock SC housing and the heads.

I think any additional SC discharge cooling is going to help a lot but I'm not sure the amount of effort and resources this would take to make it worthwhile vs other options like just spraying a meth/water mixture pre-SC.

The SC bearings on the TVS I believe Eaton posted are rated to 18,000 rpm and the performance map for the 1320 is here (http://www.eaton.com/ecm/groups/public/@pub/@eaton/@per/documents/content/ct_127898.gif).

[slowbmw]

I'm not sure I follow what you're proposing here: adding another heat exchanger inside the stock SC casing or inserting some sort of plate with HE between the stock SC housing and the heads.

I think any additional SC discharge cooling is going to help a lot but I'm not sure the amount of effort and resources this would take to make it worthwhile vs other options like just spraying a meth/water mixture pre-SC.

The SC bearings on the TVS I believe Eaton posted are rated to 18,000 rpm and the performance map for the 1320 is here (http://www.eaton.com/ecm/groups/public/@pub/@eaton/@per/documents/content/ct_127898.gif).

I am proposing idea #2. The stock supercharger housing is pretty much fixed in size so there is not any room to retrofit in a larger HX. Some could argue that this could be done (as it could be) but gains and thermal transfer would be minimal because you could only increase the HX by a very small amount. Secondly, you could increase the coolant flow through the stock HX, however you get into more complex thermal transfer issues such as absorption rates and permissability. Or thirdly, you add a HX at another location.

Essentially, the intercooler cooling system (or any Hx system) is designed with a bunch of things in mind...airflow velocity (v), airflow amount (Q), temperature (T), and the amount of heat energy required to be removed (h)(entropy). A function of removing more heat from air is to slow it down and allow more heat soak...this cannot be done because of size restrictions of odd shapes (nozzle shapes utilizing Bernoulli eq.). Secondly, you could increase the size of the cooling area to increase your heat absorption of the air. This is where the idea of a second HX comes into play.


Ability: It does seem to be difficult, but it really isn't. The supercharger would essentially be "shimmed" up 2 or 3" to allow the install of a flat HX. there is plenty of room for this to occur in the engine bay. All I would need is the profile of the supercharger to where it mounts to the heads. From there, design a plate with a mounted hx in it, tap the lines and either plum into stock cooling system or into an external system...also very easy.

I would not recommend spinning the SC any faster than bearing capability, as that could become catastrophic. But cooling the pressurized air from lets say 350deg down to 200...would do a serious amount of work on power and tuning.

That is a little helpful, but does not tell me anything about the air. I need P,T,Q inlet, PTQ out of the SC before the stock HX, PTQ (Q should remain constant) after the HX, the actual HX size, the flow rate of the coolant, the Temp of the coolant before and after the HX. This way i can get a good model of the parameters of the stock system, run it through my thermodynamics calculator and determine if adding a second HX would even do anything.

Here is an example: In my business we typically cool the discharge air coming out of an axial compressor. In the case I just ran last week, this compressor goes from 14.7psi to 45psi with a 3.0PR. The discharge air temp is 460def F!!!!!!! That is effing hot. So we slap a cooler on and some other nifty things and bring the discharge temps down to 250defF and effectively reduce the required power down 15%...sometimes more in other applications. So that goes to show you what a difference it can make. Now, I am assuming that the stock SC HX removes a bunch of heat...but due to their tiny size, may not really remove as much as it could with a dual set-up.


**If you wanted to do it the quick and dirty way, and just throw a honking HX in there...that would work too, but I would need to know those characteristics of the air to ensure that I am not injecting the engine with water droplets and 100% RH air. that would cause an engine to explode.

[mrebusa]

Why isn't a ported blower an option yet from an aftermarket company. Guys were making silly power back in the day with ported blower/sprayed 03 cobra's. (I use to own a Kenny Bell 2003 Cobra). I have been trying to think about all the little things I did to that to make power with the heat soaked blower setup (similar to the Audi's in that regard)

[NWS4Guy]

Why isn't a ported blower an option yet from an aftermarket company. Guys were making silly power back in the day with ported blower/sprayed 03 cobra's. (I use to own a Kenny Bell 2003 Cobra). I have been trying to think about all the little things I did to that to make power with the heat soaked blower setup (similar to the Audi's in that regard)

Perhaps read the entire thread to find out why? Or maybe do some searching?

From this very thread:


...
RE: Handling heat by boring inside the casing - I honestly don't even know what you are suggesting here. Maybe a poorly worded port and polish? The opening size and shape on the TVS supercharger series is about as aggressive as you can get. People who have opened the port more and polished it have seen meager if any returns on that investment.

...

Poke around the web some, our same SC is on the Cobalt SS, and those guys have done about any and everything they could to get more power, they proved pretty substantially that a port and polish on the TVS series won't get you much if anything for the efforts.



TL;DR - It's been covered. Back with previous gen superchargers, P&P could net some good gains, but with the modern machines that make parts there is very little left on the table to eek out. Enough has already been done to make the SC as efficient as they can by cutting any restrictions they are able to easily address.