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View Full Version : Gonzo GTTx Hybrid K04 for our cars!



B5nDisciple
10-28-2014, 09:45 AM
I'm surprised this hasn't been brought up yet, but I'm really excited about this kit and about to pre-order it soon. I was about to order the F21 kit and then I stumbled across this thread (read through to see posts about our application):
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?7058486-***-GTS-Performance-GTTx-052-Turbo-Kit-Pre-Order-MK4-A3-TT180-fitment-Bolt-on-260-280whp-%28350whp-on-E85%29-for-your-1-8T!-1350

I've recently combed their site and PM'd Gonzo (about a month ago) asking about the potential of them making a longitudnal kit, but didn't receive a response. I like their products and R&D that seems to push the envelope with these hybrid setups and was hoping they would have something soon and sure enough! Gonzo is piecing together a longitudnal kit for our cars that he said could ship next month. $1350 for everything minus a larger MAF and install kit. What do you guys think? [>_<]

Davdraco1
10-28-2014, 09:49 AM
Holy shit......

B5nDisciple
10-28-2014, 09:53 AM
More power then the frankenturbo ?

I believe so yes. The GTT might outperform the F21, and this version is even better: "Our new GTTx turbo line is the direct successor of the already powerful GTT and improves things by upgrading the cast 2283 wheel into a custom spec compressor wheel and a custom spec RS6 turbine wheel. Both of these wheels cannot be found anywhere else and are a Gonzo Tuning exclusive."

pbcrazy
10-28-2014, 10:48 AM
Definitely seems interesting, especially at $1350 with injectors and tune included. I'm surprised they don't describe the product better though, most turbo manufacturers (Garrett, BW, and even Franken) include details such as turbine/compressor dimensions, it also says absolutely nothing about any kind of warranty. For a $1350+ product they should spend at least a few minutes on presenting details. Otherwise you're just looking at a dyno that they say is just e85 with their turbo, not saying they are lying but they need to fill in some info (not to mention the several people on that vwvortex page that seem to be having troubles with the seller)

B5nDisciple
10-28-2014, 11:00 AM
Definitely seems interesting, especially at $1350 with injectors and tune included. I'm surprised they don't describe the product better though, most turbo manufacturers (Garrett, BW, and even Franken) include details such as turbine/compressor dimensions, it also says absolutely nothing about any kind of warranty. For a $1350+ product they should spend at least a few minutes on presenting details. Otherwise you're just looking at a dyno that they say is just e85 with their turbo, not saying they are lying but they need to fill in some info (not to mention the several people on that vwvortex page that seem to be having troubles with the seller)
Good points. I believe their warranty is 1 year, so not as good as the FT 2 year.

A1 A2 German
10-28-2014, 11:07 AM
I have a hard time believing these turbos are gonna hold up, they are getting near gt2871r elims power ranges, we all remember CTS and even with BW's people are blowing them & or having short life spans. Those are some big numbers for a tiny tiny ko4.

MetalMan
10-28-2014, 11:13 AM
This is rather interesting, indeed. It seems to be a sort of hybrid small-ish (?) frame turbo. I gathered that the manifold is a high-flow stock replacement, same with the silicone turbo inlet pipe. And it's supposed to work with stock/stock-replacement exhaust systems.

Sounds like a bigger version of the F21 to me. I wonder if the F21 manifold and silicone TIP can be used.

And my main point of posting is, I'm curious what the cost would be for turbo only, and if manifold/TIP would be needed when switching from F21.

Any idea on lag vs. F21? Perhaps I ought to ask directly...

Davdraco1
10-28-2014, 11:19 AM
If everything checked out, this would sell like hot cakes. Most tunes are half the cost of that....can't beat it

fed0ra
10-28-2014, 12:20 PM
Just so everyone knows, the wheels will stay the same between the transverse and longitudinal versions. That means that the longitudinal version will produce less than what they've shown so far. They have never advertised awd numbers (specifically tt225) so the 260whp they advertise on pump gas is fwhp. I don't think it will make much more than an f21 that's been pushed.

Tack on the fact that the guys running the company are assholes. I am interested in the numbers and they are releasing a tuning suite to compete with maestro which may be cool, but I don't think we should get tooo excited just yet.

I've also never seen a dyno of one of these outside of their website, so the power levels that the average user should expect are definitely up for debate.

fed0ra
10-28-2014, 12:22 PM
This is rather interesting, indeed. It seems to be a sort of hybrid small-ish (?) frame turbo. I gathered that the manifold is a high-flow stock replacement, same with the silicone turbo inlet pipe. And it's supposed to work with stock/stock-replacement exhaust systems.

Sounds like a bigger version of the F21 to me. I wonder if the F21 manifold and silicone TIP can be used.

And my main point of posting is, I'm curious what the cost would be for turbo only, and if manifold/TIP would be needed when switching from F21.

Any idea on lag vs. F21? Perhaps I ought to ask directly...

Well, their website lists the turbo/tip/manifold only kit as only 100 less than the full kit.

The ft manifold will definitely work but who knows about the tip. Not sure how big the inlet is.

B5nDisciple
10-28-2014, 01:11 PM
Just so everyone knows, the wheels will stay the same between the transverse and longitudinal versions. That means that the longitudinal version will produce less than what they've shown so far. They have never advertised awd numbers (specifically tt225) so the 260whp they advertise on pump gas is fwhp. I don't think it will make much more than an f21 that's been pushed.

Tack on the fact that the guys running the company are assholes. I am interested in the numbers and they are releasing a tuning suite to compete with maestro which may be cool, but I don't think we should get tooo excited just yet.

I've also never seen a dyno of one of these outside of their website, so the power levels that the average user should expect are definitely up for debate.
Yeah Gonzo said it should be around 220 or 230 awhp, so probably very close to the F21. It's just too early to really know.

Edit: I'm thinking since the gains are probably minimal if any, as well as their reputation not being as well established as FT, I'll probably end up going with the F21. I'm really unsure at this point lol.

juxsa
10-28-2014, 02:04 PM
Doug needs to make the F23 for us :D the $1350 is the preorder sale price not the normal price. IMO even at the preorder it seems a little too good to be true. and I think there are a number of people on the vortex who have issues with gonzo. Not knocking it and ill keep an eye on that thread because I want to replace my K03s this spring or next summer but I am still leaning towards frankenturbo

fed0ra
10-28-2014, 02:11 PM
Doug needs to make the F23 for us :D the $1350 is the preorder sale price not the normal price. IMO even at the preorder it seems a little too good to be true. and I think there are a number of people on the vortex who have issues with gonzo. Not knocking it and ill keep an eye on that thread because I want to replace my K03s this spring or next summer but I am still leaning towards frankenturbo

I have seen countless threads about how Gonzo has had their ECU for weeks or months without any word and no returned calls/emails. Supposedly his tunes are good, but the customer service seems poor. Add to that the fact that he is completely unprofessional; he spends his time bashing Doug/Frankenturbo and trying to claim that he's basically selling a potato inside a K04 housing and "helping" people by being condescending and a general ass. I like the sound of his tuning suite, but something tells me it won't be the second coming that his fans on VWVortex are claiming it will be and I'm not sure I ever want to support the business. Just my two cents.

Doug is still a much better guy to talk to and that alone may be worth it, even if the GTTx beat it by a few horsepower/dollars.

B5nDisciple
10-28-2014, 02:33 PM
I have seen countless threads about how Gonzo has had their ECU for weeks or months without any word and no returned calls/emails. Supposedly his tunes are good, but the customer service seems poor. Add to that the fact that he is completely unprofessional; he spends his time bashing Doug/Frankenturbo and trying to claim that he's basically selling a potato inside a K04 housing and "helping" people by being condescending and a general ass. I like the sound of his tuning suite, but something tells me it won't be the second coming that his fans on VWVortex are claiming it will be and I'm not sure I ever want to support the business. Just my two cents.

Doug is still a much better guy to talk to and that alone may be worth it, even if the GTTx beat it by a few horsepower/dollars.

Yeah the only reason the GTTx seemed tempting is because of the remote tuning they now offer. I wouldn't have considered it if I had to pull my ECU since I've been accustomed to Motoza. But with that being said, I am already running Motoza and Dave has been awesome with my car and setup so far. I just have to pay $140.00 to upgrade to the Hybrid K04 tune and I'll be GTG. I'm curious to see who tries this setup first on the B5 (or B6), but I'm not going to be the guinea pig.

Mad Cow
10-28-2014, 02:48 PM
I have seen countless threads about how Gonzo has had their ECU for weeks or months without any word and no returned calls/emails. Supposedly his tunes are good, but the customer service seems poor. Add to that the fact that he is completely unprofessional; he spends his time bashing Doug/Frankenturbo and trying to claim that he's basically selling a potato inside a K04 housing and "helping" people by being condescending and a general ass. I like the sound of his tuning suite, but something tells me it won't be the second coming that his fans on VWVortex are claiming it will be and I'm not sure I ever want to support the business. Just my two cents.

Doug is still a much better guy to talk to and that alone may be worth it, even if the GTTx beat it by a few horsepower/dollars.

That's the vibe I'd been getting from him too, he's also like that on nefmoto. He's a very talented tuner no doubt, but he has this superiority complex and acts like he's the god of ME7.5 tuning or something. Hopefully he'll soon change his attitude now that his business is growing so quickly.

fed0ra
10-28-2014, 02:52 PM
That's the vibe I'd been getting from him too, he's also like that on nefmoto. He's a very talented tuner no doubt, but he has this superiority complex and acts like he's the god of ME7.5 tuning or something.

That's what happens when everyone treats you like a god. I'm surprised Vortex hasn't created a new "Jerk Off While Talking About Gonzo" subforum.

juxsa
10-28-2014, 03:04 PM
jusst spent the last hour reading about franktenturbo/gonzo drama... I think i'll just stick with FT. Team Gonzo seems a little nuts

fed0ra
10-28-2014, 03:10 PM
jusst spent the last hour reading about franktenturbo/gonzo drama... I think i'll just stick with FT. Team Gonzo seems a little nuts

It gets crazy. Everyone wants to argue that because Doug sources parts from china that it is no different than a CXRacing or Godspeed turbo. And yet...Gonzo does the same thing but somehow his turbos are totally legit. And the best part is that they will stir up trouble and drag his name through the mud and if he doesn't say anything they call him a pussy but if he comes in and defends himself they tell him not to spread his lies or some crap like that.

I don't think I will ever go with a hybrid but if I do I can pretty much guarantee it will be a frankenturbo. Unless Gonzo can somehow make a reliable 300whp hybrid for the B5 I don't think I can be swayed.

pbcrazy
10-28-2014, 04:06 PM
\Everyone wants to argue that because Doug sources parts from china that it is no different than a CXRacing or Godspeed turbo
I've never understood this argument at all. A large majority of products are made in china nowadays, even prestigious companies manufacture in china (Apple for example or Microsoft for you Apple fanboy haters) because it's cheaper. Cheaper does not mean worse in this case, as labor and manufacturing laws are much more lax over there and therefore labor and manufacturing costs are much lower. Sure, there is companies like Godspeed that are cheaply made, but hell the dodge avenger is 75%+ american made. Point is the Location of Manufacturing does not directly influence quality. Tons of other factors that go into it.

G-zo
10-28-2014, 07:12 PM
Definitely seems interesting, especially at $1350 with injectors and tune included. I'm surprised they don't describe the product better though, most turbo manufacturers (Garrett, BW, and even Franken) include details such as turbine/compressor dimensions, it also says absolutely nothing about any kind of warranty. For a $1350+ product they should spend at least a few minutes on presenting details. Otherwise you're just looking at a dyno that they say is just e85 with their turbo, not saying they are lying but they need to fill in some info (not to mention the several people on that vwvortex page that seem to be having troubles with the seller)
What kind of info do you wish to see? What kind of info does competitors in this market offer?


Any idea on lag vs. F21? Perhaps I ought to ask directly...
Should be about the same spool and power potential as the transversal unit since it will be rocking the same wheels


Just so everyone knows, the wheels will stay the same between the transverse and longitudinal versions. That means that the longitudinal version will produce less than what they've shown so far. They have never advertised awd numbers (specifically tt225) so the 260whp they advertise on pump gas is fwhp. I don't think it will make much more than an f21 that's been pushed.

The transversal housing is really restrictive, and the outlet where the downpipe goes comes out on an angle. That creates a lot of turbulence. The longitudinal unit will not have this issue.



I've also never seen a dyno of one of these outside of their website, so the power levels that the average user should expect are definitely up for debate.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?6015816-My-Gonzo-Tuning-GTT-E85-Build-Thread

That's on the older version. The current version should be even better.


That's what happens when everyone treats you like a god. I'm surprised Vortex hasn't created a new "Jerk Off While Talking About Gonzo" subforum.
Haha, its funny, but one of my biggest antagonists, turned into my sales liaison after actually experiencing our products. Take that as you will.


Tack on the fact that the guys running the company are assholes. I am interested in the numbers and they are releasing a tuning suite to compete with maestro which may be cool, but I don't think we should get tooo excited just yet.
Would an asshole let you try out an early beta?


If everything checked out, this would sell like hot cakes. Most tunes are half the cost of that....can't beat it
Its a special pre-order price. We've done this before. After the pre-order is over, you will have to pay retail

pbcrazy
10-28-2014, 07:27 PM
What kind of info do you wish to see? What kind of info does competitors in this market offer?


I believe I did specify what kind of info I wanted to see. Definitely not sure why you decided to bold this market when I clearly compared you to two other manufacters in "this market". A warranty would be a good start (only software is covered under your current warranty policy according to your website).

G-zo
10-28-2014, 08:39 PM
I believe I did specify what kind of info I wanted to see. Definitely not sure why you decided to bold this market when I clearly compared you to two other manufacters in "this market". A warranty would be a good start (only software is covered under your current warranty policy according to your website).
Garrett and BW don't cater to a niche market.

Warranty policy is one year on turbo due to defects and unconditional CHRA replacement for $150

juxsa
10-29-2014, 04:27 AM
Well Gonzo I'm all about more development for the B5/B6 platform. If you make this GTTX turbo and tune for the B5/B6 platforms and show us some numbers I'd consider you when I replace my K03s.

But please... keep the fanboys in check. While reading about about the frankenturbo/gonzo drama there were a handful of members on vortex that were so damn annoying that it really made me loose interest in gonzo anything.

Its cool to see you posting here and I am definitely interested in seeing what you can bring.

B5nDisciple
10-29-2014, 07:41 AM
Well Gonzo I'm all about more development for the B5/B6 platform. If you make this GTTX turbo and tune for the B5/B6 platforms and show us some numbers I'd consider you when I replace my K03s.

But please... keep the fanboys in check. While reading about about the frankenturbo/gonzo drama there were a handful of members on vortex that were so damn annoying that it really made me loose interest in gonzo anything.

Its cool to see you posting here and I am definitely interested in seeing what you can bring.
Same here. I let him know I chose the F21 this time around, but that I hope to see good results with the GTTx for the B5/B6.

MetalMan
10-29-2014, 07:45 AM
Would an asshole let you try out an early beta?


Are you looking for people to fulfill a beta test?
Are you looking for someone who is capable of a direct comparison to F21? (which I think sounds like the nearest competitor)
Would the GTTX Longitudinal be a direct drop-in replacement for a F21? (i.e. would the FT silicone TIP fit, and does it use a K03/K04 flange?)

pbcrazy
10-29-2014, 07:52 AM
Are you looking for people to fulfill a beta test?
Are you looking for someone who is capable of a direct comparison to F21? (which I think sounds like the nearest competitor)
Would the GTTX Longitudinal be a direct drop-in replacement for a F21? (i.e. would the FT silicone TIP fit, and does it use a K03/K04 flange?)

I believe he was referring to an early beta for his tuning suite, not the turbo

MetalMan
10-29-2014, 08:03 AM
I believe he was referring to an early beta for his tuning suite, not the turbo

Gotcha. Still my questions stands about "beta testing" the turbo.

G-zo
10-29-2014, 03:01 PM
I believe he was referring to an early beta for his tuning suite, not the turbo
[up]

Gotcha. Still my questions stands about "beta testing" the turbo.
Not really interested in that.

I'm offering up to $250 off for anyone who pre-orders and provides data/dyno sheets, aside from the ones we will obtain [:)]

MetalMan
10-29-2014, 03:25 PM
Not really interested in that.

I'm offering up to $250 off for anyone who pre-orders and provides data/dyno sheets, aside from the ones we will obtain [:)]

Was worth a shot. In my mind I'm imagining how I could justify this with my wife: ME: "Honey, if I get this kit I can save $250 if I spend $100 + gas for a piece of paper!". HER: "So you'll actually save less than $150?". ME: "Uhh..." HER: (thinking to herself: "better luck next time")

Obviously for the person who was planning to get on a dyno anyways this makes plenty of sense, and you would still end up saving almost $150 in the end (assuming $100/hr and one hour of dyno time for a few pulls).

Still curious as to the answer of my other question:

Would the GTTX Longitudinal be a direct drop-in replacement for a F21? (i.e. would the FT silicone TIP fit, and does it use a K03/K04 flange?)

This is assuming you would be willing to sell the turbo alone, maybe with tuning.

G-zo
10-29-2014, 07:08 PM
This is assuming you would be willing to sell the turbo alone, maybe with tuning.
Sometimes I work out deals based on current stock, but as a rule of thumb, I don't really sell the turbo alone. I can only be competitive selling the whole kit.

But as with our other turbos, it bolts on the stock location. The TIP might need work as the compressor wheel is much bigger. Yes, bigger than the F21

BaronB5
10-29-2014, 07:19 PM
Sweet I think I'll place my order tomorrow. I have a few questions I'll pm you but can't beat that price!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

G-zo
10-29-2014, 07:26 PM
PM me on VWVortex or email me, if possible [:)]

viceprp
10-30-2014, 03:59 AM
Fwd dynojet numbers.

I would be weary running this on stock rods. The tune would have to be mint to not throw rods.

G-zo
10-30-2014, 07:45 AM
We've been doing this for 3 years, on stock rods :)

viceprp
10-30-2014, 08:13 AM
I'm just saying that if a longitudinal guy was looking for 265awhp on your kit or 350awhp on E85, they will be disappointed with the outcome.

GrapeBandit
10-30-2014, 09:24 AM
IMO, skip k04, skip FT, skip gttx and save up a little more money and at least go elim kit

B5nDisciple
10-30-2014, 09:24 AM
I'm just saying that if a longitudinal guy was looking for 265awhp on your kit or 350awhp on E85, they will be disappointed with the outcome.
Especially if it's not an aeb. I am guessing it will be around 240 AWHP with pump 91.

G-zo
10-30-2014, 09:24 AM
I never claimed 265awhp

I always do a full disclosure. Ask the OP [:)]

viceprp
10-30-2014, 09:34 AM
I don't believe in the who AEB wrist pin claim. I pulled apart my spare 058 and compared them to my scat rods. It's night and day. These cars have been around for over 15 years so it's only due time that more turbo options are to come. E85 makes monstrous amounts of power and no stock bottom will hold up to that kind of abuse unless with dog shit timing or a granny behind the wheel. Neither which you would want.

B5nDisciple
10-30-2014, 12:58 PM
I never claimed 265awhp

I always do a full disclosure. Ask the OP [:)]
Yes indeed, you said 220-230 awhp which is probably a little modest. Again, I am going F21, but am curious to see what this turbo can do on a longitudinal motor.

fed0ra
10-30-2014, 01:01 PM
I never claimed 265awhp

I always do a full disclosure. Ask the OP [:)]

To be fair, your website does list it with the same power levels/dyno plot as the transverse model. And that does claim 265whp.

juxsa
10-30-2014, 01:23 PM
I'd really like to see some dyno plots from a car not using E85

G-zo
10-30-2014, 02:03 PM
To be fair, your website does list it with the same power levels/dyno plot as the transverse model. And that does claim 265whp.
The numbers would be accurate for a FWD car, like the B5/B5.5 Passat :)

fed0ra
10-30-2014, 02:21 PM
The numbers would be accurate for a FWD car, like the B5/B5.5 Passat :)

True, true. Sometimes I forget that not all A4s came with quattro...

GrapeBandit
10-30-2014, 03:40 PM
True, true. Sometimes I forget that not all A4s came with quattro...

im not even sure why audi makes any fwd cars. the whole point of getting an audi is for the legendary quattro system

Davdraco1
10-30-2014, 04:25 PM
IMO, skip k04, skip FT, skip gttx and save up a little more money and at least go elim kit

This

walky_talky20
10-30-2014, 09:08 PM
The big upshot I see for these hybrids over an Eliminator is vastly reduced costs of CHRA replacement. Should any number of awful things happen, with the unconditional CHRA replacement prices, it's quite affordable to get it back on the road. With an elim, you've got a much more expensive situation going on. More than 3 times the cost to put a new CHRA in.

alexvanlewen
10-30-2014, 11:56 PM
The big upshot I see for these hybrids over an Eliminator is vastly reduced costs of CHRA replacement. Should any number of awful things happen, with the unconditional CHRA replacement prices, it's quite affordable to get it back on the road. With an elim, you've got a much more expensive situation going on. More than 3 times the cost to put a new CHRA in.
This is true. Honestly, I'd love an elim kit but it is an entirely different ballpark. I'm elated to see this deal though, if I was still stock I'd jump on it.

juxsa
10-31-2014, 05:18 AM
The big upshot I see for these hybrids over an Eliminator is vastly reduced costs of CHRA replacement. Should any number of awful things happen, with the unconditional CHRA replacement prices, it's quite affordable to get it back on the road. With an elim, you've got a much more expensive situation going on. More than 3 times the cost to put a new CHRA in.

To me my interest has more to do with the significantly lower cost of the complete kit (whether Frankenturbo or this new Gonzturbo) over an eliminator, you get a pretty big bump in performance over an OEM K03/K03s/K04, and these kybrids seem to have have a minimal increase in turbo lag unlike an eliminator. While yes the eliminator will quite a bit more topend you also loose quite a bit of your bottom end torque making it not as much fun to drive as your daily

rodgertherabit
10-31-2014, 06:24 AM
I went form a F23 build to a full gtx vband, and ill never look back. I didnt like the peaky curve of hybrid turbos. plus the gt28 series is not laggy by anymeans, in fact with FWD it only enhanced the experience. I just prefer the smoother longer lasting powerband

Although the Hybrid was a bit cheaper to get into and it was still lots of fun (not trying to downplay them). This was before the f21 and gtt's hit the roads so there was more fab work, extra parts/cost involved with getting the tt225 fitment on the MKIV

G-zo
11-14-2014, 08:35 PM
http://i.imgur.com/K3knBoW.png

Woot woot

melomandn
11-15-2014, 09:41 AM
I never claimed 265awhp

I always do a full disclosure. Ask the OP [:)]

On vortex you claimed 400whp with e85 an intake cam and enlarged manifold which is ridiculous to be honest. There's no way this turbo can flow that much.

For anyone looking I'd be very skeptical on the numbers they're claiming until we see real dyno results on our platform


Another thing to note, gonzo claims an 80whp gain with only the addition of e85, from 270whp to 350whp. Yet on the b8 s4 platform the addition of e85 on an Apr stage 2 car only added arounded 30whp on REAL dyno results. An 8% difference compared to a claimed 23% difference by gonzo. Yes they're different platforms but the point is I wouldn't believe any of gonzos claimed numbers until there's real numbers.


Thread for reference: http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/617311-recent-dyno-results-APR-stage-2-Epl-Stage-2-e85-and-methanol

Rodgman15
11-15-2014, 10:55 AM
So I keep seeing mk4/tt225 compatibility, would this kit be compatible with an aeb 1.8t Quattro? Sorry for the stupid question but I don't see a definitive answer.

G-zo
11-15-2014, 10:03 PM
On vortex you claimed 400whp with e85 an intake cam and enlarged manifold which is ridiculous to be honest. There's no way this turbo can flow that much.

For anyone looking I'd be very skeptical on the numbers they're claiming until we see real dyno results on our platform


Another thing to note, gonzo claims an 80whp gain with only the addition of e85, from 270whp to 350whp. Yet on the b8 s4 platform the addition of e85 on an Apr stage 2 car only added arounded 30whp on REAL dyno results. An 8% difference compared to a claimed 23% difference by gonzo. Yes they're different platforms but the point is I wouldn't believe any of gonzos claimed numbers until there's real numbers.


Thread for reference: http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/617311-recent-dyno-results-APR-stage-2-Epl-Stage-2-e85-and-methanol
We did 355whp (uncorrected) @ 27psi on E85 with a somewhat conservative timing curve on stock intake manifold, stock cams, and no W/M or crazy cooling setup. There's documented proof of that. You will see it if you bother to check the link I posted on this very thread a few posts back.

http://i.imgur.com/vBmKCMx.jpg?1

In fact, we already broke 400whp with the TT225 fitment GTTx.

See: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?6861128-Hybrid-Turbo-(the-Madmax-way)-gt-gt-gt-gt-gt-gt&p=85545152&viewfull=1#post85545152

That's all wheel horsepower, baby


So I keep seeing mk4/tt225 compatibility, would this kit be compatible with an aeb 1.8t Quattro? Sorry for the stupid question but I don't see a definitive answer.

Yes, the GTTx is designed to bolt on to the longitudinal 1.8t. The pre-order is over, though

A1 A2 German
11-15-2014, 11:21 PM
^

Dam! [up]

alexvanlewen
11-15-2014, 11:25 PM
400hp for a bolt on? Jesus

Davdraco1
11-16-2014, 05:59 AM
What kinda of life for these turbos are expected? Tiny turbo pushing all that air all the time can't be too healthy????

melomandn
11-16-2014, 11:42 AM
There's documented proof of that. You will see it if you bother to check the link I posted on this very thread a few posts back.



I've read all the threads, which is the exactly why I still have questions. Do you have any compressor maps or at least inducer/exducer sizes? That's an extremely linear torque curve for how peaky hybrid turbos usually perform.

In this day and age you have to be skeptical when you can get Borg Warner efr performance for the price of a frankenturbo kit. Especially when other big name companies are being exposed for false marketing.

As that dyno shows in that thread, 400awhp is about 520chp on a Quattro system. That's the same numbers as a strong e85 2871r setup.

Doug@FrankenTurbo
11-17-2014, 08:37 AM
I guess that since FrankenTurbo is paying to support this forum as an advertiser, maybe I'll post a few things in response to the spammer who's being so active here.

The F21L hybrid turbo kit (http://frankenturbo.com/new/F21L.html)is the only stock-fitment K03 hybrid that has proven results on this platform. We have numerous dynos to show it is a stock-engine safe product that can deliver 220+ all wheel horsepower. Capable of generating over 230 grams/second of airflow, this is a 300bhp-turbocharger. And we offer the best warranty in the business. And we back our products with pre- and post-sales customer service like nobody else. And it is supported on the B5 platform by reputable tuners such as Eurodyne, United Motorsports, Motoza & Solo Motorsports.

If the community feels these benefits aren't enough, if the consensus is that 300bhp is no longer sexy for our F21L, well, we have the best R&D of any hybrid turbo manufacturer in the business. And we have plenty of things in the pipeline. We can develop (not copy) new designs to keep the F21L front and center in the marketplace. We've been a supporter of this community for too long not to work hard at staying #1.

If anyone here has a question regarding our products, feel free to drop me a line by email.

Thanks

Doug Harper
FrankenTurbo

coolgraymemo
11-17-2014, 09:53 AM
I guess that since FrankenTurbo is paying to support this forum as an advertiser, maybe I'll post a few things in response to the spammer who's being so active here.

The F21L hybrid turbo kit (http://frankenturbo.com/new/F21L.html)is the only stock-fitment K03 hybrid that has proven results on this platform. We have numerous dynos to show it is a stock-engine safe product that can deliver 220+ all wheel horsepower. Capable of generating over 230 grams/second of airflow, this is a 300bhp-turbocharger. And we offer the best warranty in the business. And we back our products with pre- and post-sales customer service like nobody else. And it is supported on the B5 platform by reputable tuners such as Eurodyne, United Motorsports, Motoza & Solo Motorsports.

If the community feels these benefits aren't enough, if the consensus is that 300bhp is no longer sexy for our F21L, well, we have the best R&D of any hybrid turbo manufacturer in the business. And we have plenty of things in the pipeline. We can develop (not copy) new designs to keep the F21L front and center in the marketplace. We've been a supporter of this community for too long not to work hard at staying #1.

If anyone here has a question regarding our products, feel free to drop me a line by email.

Thanks

Doug Harper
FrankenTurbo

Does that mean we'll be getting something larger than a F21?

G-zo
11-17-2014, 10:29 AM
What kinda of life for these turbos are expected? Tiny turbo pushing all that air all the time can't be too healthy????
As long as you keep your EGT and oil temperature in check, they should prove to last for a very long time. Both of the setups posted on here are not dyno queens, they are autocross setups.

I've read all the threads, which is the exactly why I still have questions. Do you have any compressor maps or at least inducer/exducer sizes? 46mm inducer / 58mm exducer compressor wheel. Watch for those numbers because our competitor will most likely be copying our design as he has done before.


In this day and age you have to be skeptical when you can get Borg Warner efr performance for the price of a frankenturbo kit. Especially when other big name companies are being exposed for false marketing.
That's a serious accusation when your claims have no backing. All the dynos posted were done by third parties which I have zero affiliation with.


As that dyno shows in that thread, 400awhp is about 520chp on a Quattro system. That's the same numbers as a strong e85 2871r setup. If you take a look on the build thread, there is more than just E85. There was custom work involved to get to that power. It isn't your typical run of the mill setup. However, it is all documented and can be replicated by anyone.

That same car previously did 300awhp on the stock K04, so 400awhp on our setup isn't far fetched.

melomandn
11-17-2014, 11:29 AM
That's a serious accusation when your claims have no backing. All the dynos posted were done by third parties which I have zero affiliation with.

If you take a look on the build thread, there is more than just E85. There was custom work involved to get to that power. It isn't your typical run of the mill setup. However, it is all documented and can be replicated by anyone.

The only "accusation" I made was invlovling a BIG name company and there are threads about it all over this board and others.

And earlier in this current thread you offered $250 to anyone who got dyno results so by definition you do have affiliation with them.

Furhtermore as you just said, there was more done then e85. Yet your website claims that e85 can bring numbers from 265whp to 350whp.

Call it devils advocate, call it whatever you want. There's a reason companies spend so much time and money on research and development, so that they have real numbers and results to show investors and customers. They don't make claims first and then ask people to prove them right...

alexvanlewen
11-17-2014, 11:43 AM
Does that mean we'll be getting something larger than a F21?
Say yes..

G-zo
11-17-2014, 11:56 AM
The only "accusation" I made was invlovling a BIG name company and there are threads about it all over this board and others.

And earlier in this current thread you offered $250 to anyone who got dyno results so by definition you do have affiliation with them. That was never offered when these dynos were performed.

Also I'm not offering an incentive for inflated numbers at all. I'm offering an incentive for people to come forward and gather extra data. You are twisting facts to push a hidden agenda

Furhtermore as you just said, there was more done then e85. Yet your website claims that e85 can bring numbers from 265whp to 350whp.

Call it devils advocate, call it whatever you want. There's a reason companies spend so much time and money on research and development, so that they have real numbers and results to show investors and customers. They don't make claims first and then ask people to prove them right...
The 400ahwp setup had a lot of custom work done, the 355whp setup only had rods, 870cc injectors, E85, and GTTx. The latter was basically all bolt on. All the information you need is on the build threads linked. There is no contradiction here and all I have said is 100% truthful.

Its unfair to judge me based on other vendors' track records. Pushing a hidden agenda is not playing devil's advocate. My claims have all been backed up. Your claims have been all based on your speculation and comparisons between apples and oranges, while dismissing any truthful facts.

At this point any input you have on this matter is to be dismissed as its clear that you have absolutely no expertise on this matter, and/or are pushing a hidden agenda. I will always entertain any constructive/objective discussion as long as we are basing it on facts, not absurd comparisons and speculations.

DiertyEuroSpec
11-17-2014, 01:39 PM
Well it seems only time will tell until someone sacks up and goes with the kit and does there own empirical testing.

melomandn
11-17-2014, 02:26 PM
The 400ahwp setup had a lot of custom work done, the 355whp setup only had rods, 870cc injectors, E85, and GTTx. The latter was basically all bolt on. All the information you need is on the build threads linked.

Its unfair to judge me based on other vendors' track records. Pushing a hidden agenda is not playing devil's advocate. My claims have all been backed up. Your claims have been all based on your speculation and comparisons between apples and oranges, while dismissing any truthful facts.

At this point any input you have on this matter is to be dismissed as its clear that you have absolutely no expertise on this matter, and/or are pushing a hidden agenda. I will always entertain any constructive/objective discussion as long as we are basing it on facts, not absurd comparisons and speculations.

In bold is exactly what I was looking for. You're interpreting this very defensively and not seeing what it is I'm saying. There is no "hidden agenda" that you're so concerned about.

I never judged you based on others track records, which I reiterated in my last post.

I have no intentions of getting in a pissing match with you and have done nothing more than ask questions and state proven FACTS.

When it comes to big turbo kits, turbos, builds, flow numbers, what have you, the b5 a4 forum on this board is overflowing with knowledge. Being that I spent years researching, put together my own kit, built my own engine and still have it running flawlessly after 50k seems like I may have a little more than "absolutely no expertise on this matter". So I see no need for personal jabs.

FACT Your website clearly states, and I quote "MK4/TT180HP to make over 270whp with pump gas. If opt to run E85 you can expect 350whp, which will require forged rods, a 4bar pressure regulator and possibly a fuel pump upgrade." Implying with just the addition of e85 you can expect an increase of 80whp

FACT The thread I posted on the b8 s4 where the only change was in tune/gas (e85) showed an 8% increase opposed to the 23% increase gonzo implies (its a percentage game not a platform game; the point is dont claim its JUST from e85 if its not, thats where confusion come from)

FACT Comparable business' clearly state information on their turbos (inducer/exducer size etc.) while your website does not

FACT Comparable business' state what their turbo is made out of so we have at least some sort of an idea what reliability will be like while gonzo does not



Bottom line is this, when you come out with a new product that is said to outperform anything else we have ever seen in the last 15 years of dealing with and tuning this motor, questions are going to be asked. When some new guy joins and says they put down 500whp on a gt2860rs they get flamed and asked to prove it. Same goes for this, when you release a product with very little easily accessible info you're going to be asked questions, you're a business and thats life.

Going back to my original post on this thread I said "I'd be very skeptical on the numbers they're claiming until we see real dyno results on OUR platform"
Quite frankly I'm done with this thread and the way you handle your business, it has confirmed everything others have said. If you have anything else to say we can take it to PM's.

ricekikr
11-17-2014, 03:56 PM
http://i.imgur.com/vBmKCMx.jpg?1


Why does the torque go down then shoot back up? Boost increase, timing in tune, nitrous or two runs with hp overlayed and torque removed?

Also what rpms are those at? If 6500, hp should be around 400 (based on 325tq 6500rpm)

Nice numbers nonetheless.

G-zo
11-17-2014, 04:07 PM
Just because you capitalize the word "FACT", doesn't make it a fact. If you are claiming its a fact, post a screenshot or something that you can use to back your claim.

Again you are comparing apples to oranges. The B8 S4 has a stratified injection fueling system, and is supercharged. Using E85 allows for more boost and more timing. E85 is less susceptible to knock, and more tolerant to increased intake temperatures. The fact that you compare how the 3.0TFSI responds to E85 to a regular fuel injected turbo 4cyl inline engine is astonishing, for a lack of a better word.

The 1.8T is not a new platform to me. All dynos and technical data posted on here are from other 1.8T 20v setups, not some other platform. If you have as much experience as you claim, you must know that the longitudinal 1.8T is not significantly different than the longitudinal 1.8T.

I'm here to challenge the status quo, not follow trends. If you like your current setup, I'm glad. BT builds have their place, but please don't be close minded or quick to dismiss other setups.

G-zo
11-17-2014, 04:09 PM
Why does the torque go down then shoot back up? Boost increase, timing in tune, nitrous or two runs with hp overlayed and torque removed?

Also what rpms are those at? If 6500, hp should be around 400 (based on 325tq 6500rpm)

Nice numbers nonetheless.
Wheel spin.

This is the same car in a different pull:

https://www.gonzotuning.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/FFEdyno2-2-1024x668.png

Build thread link was posted on page 1, but just in case: http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?6015816-My-Gonzo-Tuning-GTT-E85-Build-Thread

redline380
11-17-2014, 04:18 PM
Again you are comparing apples to oranges. The B8 S4 has a stratified injection fueling system, and is supercharged. Using E85 allows for more boost and more timing. E85 is less susceptible to knock, and more tolerant to increased intake temperatures. The fact that you compare how the 3.0TFSI responds to E85 to a regular fuel injected turbo 4cyl inline engine is astonishing, for a lack of a better word.

I'm no expert, but the bolded is true of e85, no matter which application, be it supercharger or turbocharger. It is used to increase timing and to increase knock resistance on either engine, so I wouldn't say it is apples to oranges. More like one kind of apple to another kind of apple.

And as he pointed out, its a percentage thing, not a platform thing.

BaronB5
11-17-2014, 05:02 PM
What's the price of this bundle now that it's no longer on sale? Will this fit the awm 2001 a4?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

pbcrazy
11-17-2014, 05:07 PM
If the community feels these benefits aren't enough, if the consensus is that 300bhp is no longer sexy for our F21L, well, we have the best R&D of any hybrid turbo manufacturer in the business. And we have plenty of things in the pipeline. We can develop (not copy) new designs to keep the F21L front and center in the marketplace. We've been a supporter of this community for too long not to work hard at staying #1.

Soooooooooo whens the bigger franken coming around?

fed0ra
11-17-2014, 05:14 PM
I'm no expert, but the bolded is true of e85, no matter which application, be it supercharger or turbocharger. It is used to increase timing and to increase knock resistance on either engine, so I wouldn't say it is apples to oranges. More like one kind of apple to another kind of apple.

And as he pointed out, its a percentage thing, not a platform thing.

I think the point gonzo is making is that the whole reason e85 let's you make more power is because it allows you to add tons of timing and boost without hitting knock. It just raises the limit of what is achievable on a given motor when compared to 93 octane. If you take a motor with less time and boost left on the table the net increase when switching to e85 will be lower. The fsi motors are less susceptible to knock so it would make sense that e85 would have less of an effect.

E85 has been shown on the 1.8t and other non direct injected motors to increase peak power and torque substantially, way more than 8%.

Davdraco1
11-17-2014, 05:18 PM
Soooooooooo whens the bigger franken coming around?

Looking to upgrade turbo in coming spring/summer. Would love for a new/improved ft kit.

pbcrazy
11-17-2014, 05:29 PM
Looking to upgrade turbo in coming spring/summer. Would love for a new/improved ft kit.

Well unless the gttx really takes off I doubt it will happen, just not enough demand. That said, the f21 is already crazy good for the price and if he does upgrade it, it will likely fall under the $125 CHRA replacement (he honored it with the F4H guys coming to f21) hopefully anyway.

madmax199
11-17-2014, 05:52 PM
That's what happens when everyone treats you like a god. I'm surprised Vortex hasn't created a new "Jerk Off While Talking About Gonzo" subforum.

Please, "everyone treats you like a god". I guess you haven't been around long enough. There was a time, in a not too distant past, when Gonzo was the new kid on the block, the guy that was a DJ on the side, and was just rising above the rest on Neftmoto offering tuning services. The old timers did nothing but give him a hard time (I admit doing it myself), but that was a time when members of technically-driven forums were not judged by how well they sugar coated what they were saying, but what they were bringing to the table. Jeff for example, was Gonzo's bigger critique and guess what, he ended up becoming part of Gonzo's team after the kid had proved his worth.

I would think that you've seen that I don't nutswing, in many occasions I was the first one to jump and defend FT against that fanboy psycho that loves to overstep his boundaries as a person. You can also see that I have not partaken in any Gonzo vs FT shenanigan thread in at least a year (although I have plenty to say) and successfully run a GTTx kit in my track TT. Nobody treats gonzo like a god, if anything it's FT that seems to have demanded and received special treatment on vortex whenever things wasn't going his way. What is different nowadays is the core of knowledgable members grew tired of the stance cry-baby demographic and all that's left posting are clueless fanboys barging in every thread to spit their garbage. The real ID27 members don't treat anyone like they are god.[up]

redline380
11-17-2014, 06:01 PM
Please, "everyone treats you like a god". I guess you haven't been around long enough. There was a time, in a not too distant past, when Gonzo was the new kid on the block, the guy that was a DJ on the side, and was just rising above the rest on Neftmoto offering tuning services. The old timers did nothing but give him a hard time (I admit doing it myself), but that was a time when members of technically-driven forums were not judged by how well they sugar coated what they were saying, but what they were bringing to the table. Jeff for example, was Gonzo's bigger critique and guess what, he ended up becoming part of Gonzo's team after the kid had proved his worth.

I would think that you've seen that I don't nutswing, in many occasions I was the first one to jump and defend FT against that fanboy psycho that loves to overstep his boundaries as a person. You can also see that I have not partaken in any Gonzo vs FT shenanigan thread in at least a year (although I have plenty to say) and successfully run a GTTx kit in my track TT. Nobody treats gonzo like a god, if anything it's FT that seems to have demanded and received special treatment on vortex whenever things wasn't going his way. What is different nowadays is the core of knowledgable members grew tired of the stance cry-baby demographic and all that's left posting are clueless fanboys barging in every thread to spit their garbage. The real ID27 members don't treat anyone like they are god.[up]



What exactly is the point of this post? Moreover, who cares?





http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/06/065d7341df77f3318e639ba63cec1f2073bc5decc5ed31c381 7eb492f2e7f467.jpg

G-zo
11-17-2014, 06:07 PM
I think the point gonzo is making is that the whole reason e85 let's you make more power is because it allows you to add tons of timing and boost without hitting knock. It just raises the limit of what is achievable on a given motor when compared to 93 octane. If you take a motor with less time and boost left on the table the net increase when switching to e85 will be lower. The fsi motors are less susceptible to knock so it would make sense that e85 would have less of an effect.

E85 has been shown on the 1.8t and other non direct injected motors to increase peak power and torque substantially, way more than 8%.
Thank you.

If someone wants to do comparisons, they should try comparing the 2.7T to the 1.8T. Same 5v head design.

B5nDisciple
11-17-2014, 06:20 PM
Well unless the gttx really takes off I doubt it will happen, just not enough demand. That said, the f21 is already crazy good for the price and if he does upgrade it, it will likely fall under the $125 CHRA replacement (he honored it with the F4H guys coming to f21) hopefully anyway.
That's definitely AWESOME, but I spied the possibility that a TD05 setup may be in consideration. [emoji1]

madmax199
11-17-2014, 06:21 PM
I think the point gonzo is making is that the whole reason e85 let's you make more power is because it allows you to add tons of timing and boost without hitting knock. It just raises the limit of what is achievable on a given motor when compared to 93 octane. If you take a motor with less time and boost left on the table the net increase when switching to e85 will be lower. The fsi motors are less susceptible to knock so it would make sense that e85 would have less of an effect.

E85 has been shown on the 1.8t and other non direct injected motors to increase peak power and torque substantially, way more than 8%.

I'm only quoting you because I don't know the members here and they don't know me, so I want to stay clear of stepping on anyone's toes. I really got a good laugh when I saw someone with no personal experience posting a dyno plot of car with a non-E85 tune as evidence to refute the claim of what's possible on E85 on the 20v 1.8t motor. Then it got even juicier with talks of percentage gains over raw power increase and what not. The amazement never stops!

I have been playing with e85-powered AWD turbo track cars for close to a decade, and the VW/Audi enthusiast community still seems to have not fully grasp the possibilities with this highly oxygenated, high knock threshold, cooler burning fuel. For the rest of the audience, I have the Audi TT that was referenced in the link showing 400 awhp capability with the gonzo GTT-x kit. Leaving the Gonzo kit aside (which btw is awesome even in my harsh standard as a racer), even on the stock audi k04 turbo, I was able to make 400 an astonishing AWTQ. Therefore, to propose that a much more developed hybrid turbo can't flow enough to make 400 whp is ludicrous if you're familiar with what E85 can do in practice.

madmax199
11-17-2014, 06:32 PM
What exactly is the point of this post? Moreover, who cares?

http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/06/065d7341df77f3318e639ba63cec1f2073bc5decc5ed31c381 7eb492f2e7f467.jpg

Logic would say that the point was to answer the person or statement quoted -- but maybe next time I'll look for your approval before posting my personal opinion on an open forum while quoting/addressing a statement made by someone else. [hail]

pbcrazy
11-17-2014, 06:55 PM
I have the Audi TT that was referenced in the link showing 400 awhp capability with the gonzo GTT-x kit. Leaving the Gonzo kit aside (which btw is awesome even in my harsh standard as a racer), even on the stock audi k04 turbo, I was able to make 400 an astonishing AWTQ. Therefore, to propose that a much more developed hybrid turbo can't flow enough to make 400 whp is ludicrous if you're familiar with what E85 can do in practice.
So what your saying is you made 400 AWTQ with a k04 and 400awhp with the GTTx? Just based off the dyno posted by Gonzo of your car, it shows that these cars generate more torque than horsepower atleast with small frame turbos. So you saying you made 400AWTQ with a k04 pretty much means that the GTTx actually makes less torque (compared to the 368 posted) and horsepower than a k04. Please continue to enlighten us of your "harsh standards as a racer" and opinions that are definitely not "fanboy" like at all.

fed0ra
11-17-2014, 07:02 PM
So what your saying is you made 400 AWTQ with a k04 and 400awhp with the GTTx? Just based off the dyno posted by Gonzo of your car, it shows that these cars generate more torque than horsepower atleast with small frame turbos. So you saying you made 400AWTQ with a k04 pretty much means that the GTTx actually makes less torque and power than a k04. Please continue to enlighten us of your "harsh standards as a racer" and opinions that are definitely not "fanboy" like at all.

I've pretty much read the entirety of his build thread on vortex and I have read many of his other posts before he started running the GTTx. He made 400awtq but it fell sharply (the nature of the K04 beast). Since horsepower is a factor of torque and rpm he made somewhere in the neighborhood of 300awhp because his torque had fallen off so much. I can say with certainty that Max had done everything he could to squeeze the last bit out of it, so it was at its limit. With the GTTx (or any other hybrid, especially one that has been worked over like Max's) there is a lot more headroom up top which means that the same peak torque could be made but because its held better to redline he makes more peak power.

I can definitely say with all honesty that Max is the furthest from a fanboy and he pushes his TT further than anyone else I've personally seen.

fed0ra
11-17-2014, 07:11 PM
Please, "everyone treats you like a god". I guess you haven't been around long enough. There was a time, in a not too distant past, when Gonzo was the new kid on the block, the guy that was a DJ on the side, and was just rising above the rest on Neftmoto offering tuning services. The old timers did nothing but give him a hard time (I admit doing it myself), but that was a time when members of technically-driven forums were not judged by how well they sugar coated what they were saying, but what they were bringing to the table. Jeff for example, was Gonzo's bigger critique and guess what, he ended up becoming part of Gonzo's team after the kid had proved his worth.

I would think that you've seen that I don't nutswing, in many occasions I was the first one to jump and defend FT against that fanboy psycho that loves to overstep his boundaries as a person. You can also see that I have not partaken in any Gonzo vs FT shenanigan thread in at least a year (although I have plenty to say) and successfully run a GTTx kit in my track TT. Nobody treats gonzo like a god, if anything it's FT that seems to have demanded and received special treatment on vortex whenever things wasn't going his way. What is different nowadays is the core of knowledgable members grew tired of the stance cry-baby demographic and all that's left posting are clueless fanboys barging in every thread to spit their garbage. The real ID27 members don't treat anyone like they are god.[up]

Max, you are absolutely right, I haven't been around long enough to know the full story and perhaps I'm judging too soon. I only speak from what I know and have experienced and I don't try to hide that. I know that not everyone on Vortex thinks of him as a god and I was definitely too harsh; Gonzo isn't really an asshole, I just don't agree with a lot of his methods and often times his attitude. I have no problem with someone who doesn't sugar coat things, I just think he's often too harsh for the sake of being harsh. He seems to sell a good product, though, and I will be the first to admit that I'm extremely excited about his tuning suite.

Gonzo, I know I have given you a hard time on numerous occasions and it's childish Good luck with this and I will most likely be checking out your tuning suite once I get to that point in my build [wrench].

redline380
11-17-2014, 07:17 PM
Logic would say that the point was to answer the person or statement quoted -- but maybe next time I'll look for your approval before posting my personal opinion on an open forum while quoting/addressing a statement made by someone else. [hail]


Don't mind me, I'm just here to

http://www.animateit.net/data/media/285/animated_witch_pot.gif

madmax199
11-17-2014, 07:46 PM
So what your saying is you made 400 AWTQ with a k04 and 400awhp with the GTTx? Just based off the dyno posted by Gonzo of your car, it shows that these cars generate more torque than horsepower atleast with small frame turbos. So you saying you made 400AWTQ with a k04 pretty much means that the GTTx actually makes less torque (compared to the 368 posted) and horsepower than a k04. Please continue to enlighten us of your "harsh standards as a racer" and opinions that are definitely not "fanboy" like at all.

No Sir, if reading comprehension was used you'd see that the dyno posted are from a Golf (just happen to be another fellow SCCA racer) running the original Gonzo kit. My car is the AWD TT running the GTT-x that was linked to show the possibilities. As pointed, due to the nature of the turbine restrictions, fully maxed out, I achieved 400 WTQ and a little over 300 AWHP on an untouched KKK snail (I have 318 whp dyno on that combo). That was with stock head, stock manifolds, and only rods as a real engine mod. This was brought up to demonstrate what E85 can do as fuel even on an untouched factory turbo.

Now on the hybrid, I'm making way more peak TQ, sustaining it longer, and doing so while pushing the turbo a lot less than I had to on the stocker (33 psi vs 27-28 psi on the hybrid). It is to be noted that I also have upgraded intake and exhaust manifolds and run a much less restrictive externally gated setup that doesn't recirculate bypass gas into the suffering turbine housing. I have no incentive to change any preconceived idea you may have already developed of me or my motives, but the data (as well as shelves full of trophies) is there to support what I'm saying. E85 is a hell of a juice, and paired with any turbo will yield results that make some people scratch their head in disbelief, read what you want from what I'm saying. Dyno graphs added below!

This is AWD mustang dyno plot of my car on stock the stock turbo at a relatively low 30 psi
http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd417/madmax199/Snapbucket/0E98DD41.jpg

Below is what I did on the GTT-x without a sorted AFR and a nasty exhaust leak. The numbers speak for themselves
http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd417/madmax199/image-167.jpg

melomandn
11-17-2014, 08:45 PM
Just because you capitalize the word "FACT", doesn't make it a fact. If you are claiming its a fact, post a screenshot or something that you can use to back your claim.

Again you are comparing apples to oranges. The B8 S4 has a stratified injection fueling system, and is supercharged. Using E85 allows for more boost and more timing. E85 is less susceptible to knock, and more tolerant to increased intake temperatures. The fact that you compare how the 3.0TFSI responds to E85 to a regular fuel injected turbo 4cyl inline engine is astonishing, for a lack of a better word.

The 1.8T is not a new platform to me. All dynos and technical data posted on here are from other 1.8T 20v setups, not some other platform. If you have as much experience as you claim, you must know that the longitudinal 1.8T is not significantly different than the longitudinal 1.8T.

I'm here to challenge the status quo, not follow trends. If you like your current setup, I'm glad. BT builds have their place, but please don't be close minded or quick to dismiss other setups.

Come on guys does no one do any reading on other sites? Madmax199, I'm not saying I dont believe your numbers, but your car is extremely built in all areas making it an outlier. The point that I have been trying to make and will drive home here is that e85 and a tune ALONE will not net you a 23% increase in power on any platform.

But good lord can we stop saying I have no experience? I've ran 93 and e85 files in my own car and gained 32awhp, albeit I needed bigger injectors/larger fuel pump to handle the flow but that is neither here nor there. I have no dyno sheets though which is why I did not try to claim that as evidence, heres some dynos and some readings for anyone who would like.
We'll start off with some reading (of which madmax199 has also posted in another thread so I know he's aware)

Paper written by the Mechanical Engineering department of MIT, this is the most legitamate study any of us will find. Its a good read but for those who dont want to read it all I will quote page 40:
"This shows that for a given amount of air available in the intake, E85 produces 5% more torque than gasoline, due to spark timing, and charge cooling (which brings about denser air in the cylinder)." Before anyone jumps to conclusions I obviously am not saying e85 is limited to 5% and cannot be tuned for more power, just stating evidence.
http://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/handle/1721.1/59952/676953430.pdf

White racing says a 10% increase is the average they're seeing on all the cars they've dynoed
http://i890.photobucket.com/albums/ac104/melomandn/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-03/Screenshot_2014-11-17-20-41-20_zpsubacvlgd.png (http://s890.photobucket.com/user/melomandn/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-03/Screenshot_2014-11-17-20-41-20_zpsubacvlgd.png.html)


Here's an NA Camaro
http://i890.photobucket.com/albums/ac104/melomandn/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-03/Screenshot_2014-11-17-20-31-43_zpsn32lbkjy.png (http://s890.photobucket.com/user/melomandn/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-03/Screenshot_2014-11-17-20-31-43_zpsn32lbkjy.png.html)

So theres three TOTALLY different platforms for anyone who wants to compare since the B8 s4 alone was taken the wrong way.

Unfortunately this adds nothing useful since there were no back to back pump gas/e85 comparisons but for those who want to see real 1.8t e85 results
http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/461743-Dyno-Results-E85-gas-with-Maestro-tune


And If you really want the screenshots I guess we could do that too

FACT Your website clearly states, and I quote "MK4/TT180HP to make over 270whp with pump gas. If opt to run E85 you can expect 350whp, which will require forged rods, a 4bar pressure regulator and possibly a fuel pump upgrade." Implying with just the addition of e85 you can expect an increase of 80whp

http://i890.photobucket.com/albums/ac104/melomandn/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-03/Screenshot_2014-11-17-20-00-12_zpsxbv7qmlp.png (http://s890.photobucket.com/user/melomandn/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-03/Screenshot_2014-11-17-20-00-12_zpsxbv7qmlp.png.html)

FACT The thread I posted on the b8 s4 where the only change was in tune/gas (e85) showed an 8% increase opposed to the 23% increase gonzo implies (its a percentage game not a platform game; the point is dont claim its JUST from e85 if its not, thats where confusion come from)

FACT Comparable business' clearly state information on their turbos (inducer/exducer size etc.) while your website does not

No numbers just says "custom spec turbine wheel":

http://i890.photobucket.com/albums/ac104/melomandn/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-03/Screenshot_2014-11-17-20-00-29_zpsaze1jljo.png (http://s890.photobucket.com/user/melomandn/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-03/Screenshot_2014-11-17-20-00-29_zpsaze1jljo.png.html)

Details shown:

http://i890.photobucket.com/albums/ac104/melomandn/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-03/Screenshot_2014-11-17-20-01-38_zpsdykx3raa.png (http://s890.photobucket.com/user/melomandn/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-03/Screenshot_2014-11-17-20-01-38_zpsdykx3raa.png.html)


FACT Comparable business' state what their turbo is made out of so we have at least some sort of an idea what reliability will be like while gonzo does not

Only information stated by gonzo is shown in the screenshots above

Competitor site:
http://i890.photobucket.com/albums/ac104/melomandn/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-03/Screenshot_2014-11-17-20-01-12_zpsh1twzvev.png (http://s890.photobucket.com/user/melomandn/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-03/Screenshot_2014-11-17-20-01-12_zpsh1twzvev.png.html)

fed0ra
11-17-2014, 09:01 PM
Come on guys does no one do any reading on other sites? Madmax199, I'm not saying I dont believe your numbers, but your car is extremely built in all areas making it an outlier. The point that I have been trying to make and will drive home here is that e85 and a tune ALONE will not net you a 23% increase in power on any platform.

But good lord can we stop saying I have no experience? I've ran 93 and e85 files in my own car and gained 32awhp, albeit I needed bigger injectors/larger fuel pump to handle the flow but that is neither here nor there. I have no dyno sheets though which is why I did not try to claim that as evidence, heres some dynos and some readings for anyone who would like.
We'll start off with some reading (of which madmax199 has also posted in another thread so I know he's aware)

Paper written by the Mechanical Engineering department of MIT, this is the most legitamate study any of us will find. Its a good read but for those who dont want to read it all I will quote page 40:
"This shows that for a given amount of air available in the intake, E85 produces 5% more torque than gasoline, due to spark timing, and charge cooling (which brings about denser air in the cylinder)." Before anyone jumps to conclusions I obviously am not saying e85 is limited to 5% and cannot be tuned for more power, just stating evidence.
http://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/handle/1721.1/59952/676953430.pdf

White racing says a 10% increase is the average they're seeing on all the cars they've dynoed
http://i890.photobucket.com/albums/ac104/melomandn/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-03/Screenshot_2014-11-17-20-41-20_zpsubacvlgd.png (http://s890.photobucket.com/user/melomandn/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-03/Screenshot_2014-11-17-20-41-20_zpsubacvlgd.png.html)


Here's an NA Camaro
http://i890.photobucket.com/albums/ac104/melomandn/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-03/Screenshot_2014-11-17-20-31-43_zpsn32lbkjy.png (http://s890.photobucket.com/user/melomandn/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-03/Screenshot_2014-11-17-20-31-43_zpsn32lbkjy.png.html)

A boosted civic
http://i890.photobucket.com/albums/ac104/melomandn/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-03/t1_zps2qfrk81s.jpg (http://s890.photobucket.com/user/melomandn/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-03/t1_zps2qfrk81s.jpg.html)

So theres three TOTALLY different platforms for anyone who wants to compare since the B8 s4 alone was taken the wrong way.

Unfortunately this adds nothing useful since there were no back to back pump gas/e85 comparisons but for those who want to see real 1.8t e85 results
http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/461743-Dyno-Results-E85-gas-with-Maestro-tune


And If you really want the screenshots I guess we could do that too

FACT Your website clearly states, and I quote "MK4/TT180HP to make over 270whp with pump gas. If opt to run E85 you can expect 350whp, which will require forged rods, a 4bar pressure regulator and possibly a fuel pump upgrade." Implying with just the addition of e85 you can expect an increase of 80whp

http://i890.photobucket.com/albums/ac104/melomandn/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-03/Screenshot_2014-11-17-20-00-12_zpsxbv7qmlp.png (http://s890.photobucket.com/user/melomandn/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-03/Screenshot_2014-11-17-20-00-12_zpsxbv7qmlp.png.html)

FACT The thread I posted on the b8 s4 where the only change was in tune/gas (e85) showed an 8% increase opposed to the 23% increase gonzo implies (its a percentage game not a platform game; the point is dont claim its JUST from e85 if its not, thats where confusion come from)

FACT Comparable business' clearly state information on their turbos (inducer/exducer size etc.) while your website does not

No numbers just says "custom spec turbine wheel":

http://i890.photobucket.com/albums/ac104/melomandn/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-03/Screenshot_2014-11-17-20-00-29_zpsaze1jljo.png (http://s890.photobucket.com/user/melomandn/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-03/Screenshot_2014-11-17-20-00-29_zpsaze1jljo.png.html)

Details shown:

http://i890.photobucket.com/albums/ac104/melomandn/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-03/Screenshot_2014-11-17-20-01-38_zpsdykx3raa.png (http://s890.photobucket.com/user/melomandn/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-03/Screenshot_2014-11-17-20-01-38_zpsdykx3raa.png.html)


FACT Comparable business' state what their turbo is made out of so we have at least some sort of an idea what reliability will be like while gonzo does not

Only information stated by gonzo is shown in the screenshots above

Competitor site:
http://i890.photobucket.com/albums/ac104/melomandn/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-03/Screenshot_2014-11-17-20-01-12_zpsh1twzvev.png (http://s890.photobucket.com/user/melomandn/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-03/Screenshot_2014-11-17-20-01-12_zpsh1twzvev.png.html)

The two turbocharged graphs you showed are racing gas vs E85, not 93 vs E85. Race gas already boosts power over 93, so if E85 boosts it beyond that then you haven't really proved your point.

fed0ra
11-17-2014, 09:10 PM
Here is a link to an STI build with a direct 93 vs e85 dyno. The final dyno shows about a 20% increase with e85.

http://www.iwsti.com/forums/2585174-post1.html

melomandn
11-17-2014, 10:51 PM
Here is a link to an STI build with a direct 93 vs e85 dyno. The final dyno shows about a 20% increase with e85.

http://www.iwsti.com/forums/2585174-post1.html

You're right about the civic, edited it out for accuracy. That subi was 17% this one is 11.5%

http://www.iwsti.com/forums/2585174-post1.html

B5 s4
http://www.myaudis4.com/2014/02/28/turbo-selection-e85/

madmax199
11-17-2014, 11:21 PM
You're right about the civic, edited it out for accuracy. That subi was 17% this one is 11.5%

http://www.iwsti.com/forums/2585174-post1.html

B5 s4
http://www.myaudis4.com/2014/02/28/turbo-selection-e85/

If we're going to use interweb examples as evidence of what can be gained on E85, I'll go to the Evo platform that I'm familiar with. FYI, they have the same port-injected motor as we do. 24% hp (+76 WHP) increase and 46% TQ (+132 WTQ) with a 7 psi boost increase on that Evo:
http://www.evolutionm.net/forums/e85-ethanol/356993-just-made-switch-e85.html

Even better thread to put it in perspective since the boost was left untouched in this back-to-back comparo (+79 WHP, +48 WTQ on a car that started around slightly above 300 whp). So, anyone can see what is possible to achieve when/if boost, AFR, and timing is optimized for e85:
http://www.evolutionm.net/forums/e85-ethanol/584575-e85-vs-91-20psi.html

As far as the posted Gonzo turbo claims, I will refrain from commenting since I'm nothing more than an independent user of the product. What I can show or comment about is what I was able to make with this hybrid on my personal car... but as pointed, my car is an outlier and somehow can't be used as a normal representation in the possibilities (although everything done to it was by me in my garage with basically zero budget and limited tooling).

S4NIK8
11-19-2014, 07:30 AM
Yet on the b8 s4 platform the addition of e85 on an Apr stage 2 car only added arounded 30whp on REAL dyno results. An 8% difference compared to a claimed 23% difference by gonzo. Yes they're different platforms but the point is I wouldn't believe any of gonzos claimed numbers until there's real numbers.


Thread for reference: http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/617311-recent-dyno-results-APR-stage-2-Epl-Stage-2-e85-and-methanol


Not that it really matters and maybe I missed it reading that thread but it looks like they used a 50/50 pump gas/E85 mix for that on an off the shelf apr 104oct tune?

G-zo
11-19-2014, 07:36 AM
Not that it really matters and maybe I missed it reading that thread but it looks like they used a 50/50 pump gas/E85 mix for that on an off the shelf apr 104oct tune?
Nice catch!

To get your money's worth, you need to be running an E85-optimized tune when you are running E85.

redline380
11-19-2014, 07:40 AM
To get your money's worth, you need to be running an E85-optimized tune when you are running E85.

Same thing with 93, 100, 110, leaded gas, Water/meth, or any other type of fuel.

And besides getting your money's worth, you could grenade your engine if you don't run a tune optimized for the fuel you are using, especially something like e85 which needs more fuel to keep the AFR's in check.

madmax199
11-19-2014, 09:56 AM
It's simple, using that 50/50 E85-mix thread as an example was a poor attempt to discredit what E85 can allow on a port-injected turbo motor. The poster was skeptical of the manufacturer's claims on E85, so results from an incomplete conversion made more sense.

If you look at my car that did 245 whp on 100 octane race fuel and 318 whp on E85 (with the only variables being E85, fuel pump/injectors, and rods), you can see that the manufacturer's claim are not out of line for a hybrid on E85 vs dino gas. E85 has shown 100 WTQ gain on my car on the stock K04 (from 255 to 360 when I bent two rods doing a timing sweep on the dyno), therefore when fully optimized, it's not to be taken lightly!

audinewberton
11-19-2014, 10:13 AM
@G-ZO. is there a longitudinal kit ready for sale for DBC b5's?
what hardware/software is included?
what is the price?
Thanks!

G-zo
11-20-2014, 02:42 PM
Yes.

Email me sales @ gonzotuning.com

Doug@FrankenTurbo
11-21-2014, 09:28 PM
I have the Audi TT that was referenced in the link showing 400 awhp capability with the gonzo GTT-x kit. Leaving the Gonzo kit aside (which btw is awesome even in my harsh standard as a racer)...I was able to make 400 an astonishing AWTQ. Therefore, to propose that a much more developed hybrid turbo can't flow enough to make 400 whp is ludicrous if you're familiar with what E85 can do in practice.

Max -- any interest in characterizing your "GTT-x kit" more completely? For example, what modifications did you do to that turbo? What hardware did you custom-fabricate? And for the umpteenth time, what fueling were you using to achieve your claimed 400awhp? Let's see... What else? Oh yeah, what exactly is your affiliation with Gonzo Tuning? Is this your car featured on their website (http://tunedbygts.com/software/audi/tt-sw/mk1-tt/amu-tt)? Are you really sure it still works to call yourself "independent?" Because it kinda looks like you're not.

To answer the other questions posted here, don't be so doubtful that FrankenTurbo is done with development for the 1.8T platform. The fact is we're not at all done. And the hardware we'll (soon) be introducing will be supported by the best tuning out there for the B5-series A4. And that tuning will be based on real-world fueling and hardware. And it'll be properly tested. And it'll have a better warranty, product support, quality... you get the idea.

One other thing: we pay to advertise here. This community has supported my company over the years. The least I can do is pay that back with advertising sponsorship.

alexvanlewen
11-21-2014, 09:43 PM
To answer the other questions posted here, don't be so doubtful that FrankenTurbo is done with development for the 1.8T platform. The fact is we're not at all done. And the hardware we'll (soon) be introducing will be supported by the best tuning out there for the B5-series A4. And that tuning will be based on real-world fueling and hardware. And it'll be properly tested. And it'll have a better warranty, product support, quality... you get the idea.

Damn straight.

madmax199
11-22-2014, 11:04 AM
Max -- any interest in characterizing your "GTT-x kit" more completely? For example, what modifications did you do to that turbo? What hardware did you custom-fabricate? And for the umpteenth time, what fueling were you using to achieve your claimed 400awhp? Let's see... What else? Oh yeah, what exactly is your affiliation with Gonzo Tuning? Is this your car featured on their website (http://tunedbygts.com/software/audi/tt-sw/mk1-tt/amu-tt)? Are you really sure it still works to call yourself "independent?" Because it kinda looks like you're not.


The setup is detailed in the posted thread link. But here it is again:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?6861128-Hybrid-Turbo-(the-Madmax-way)-gt-gt-gt-gt-gt-gt

For everyone else, I'm an SCCA racer with an obsession with getting the most out of my car. Any parts I use in my car are carefully chosen and if there is any room for improvement, I always make it my duty to do so to the best of my ability (every little bit counts when competing).

Doug, the turbine side of GTT-x turbo was hand ported to improve gas outlet and resulting EGT (just like I mentioned I would do to your F23 if I used it). Mid project, while talking to Dan (Beachbuggy) and Bill (badger5) I decided to divorce the bypassed gas outlet and go externally-gated to not recirculate in the intrinsically restricting turbine. I used a JBS-copy manifold and should mention that I've been running (since running the K04), an expansion-chambered downpipe courtesy of 42 DD which is one of my sponsors (gonzo isn't). The car runs on E85 pump gas, and has been running like this on the stock turbo since 2010.

As far as my affiliation to gonzo, I'm a customer that paid for his product (although at a discounted price for my contributions to the community). It's no different than when I almost used your F23 as an independent tester and was turned away because the funds became available two weeks too late to your liking and initial agreement. That wouldn't have made me affiliated to you in any way since I wouldn't be anything more than an independent tester that paid for his product. I'm in nobody's pocket and never will!

We have quite a bit of history and you can't honestly say that I have been nothing but a cheerleader for your brand and the option that it has offered to the community. You have personally apologized to me in person for snapping after I tried striking a casual and friendly conversation (remember waterfest a few years back) - you have also done so in public in the forums for the wastegate debacle after I independently got your wastegate tested and revealed it's strength as a performance upgrade but with low initial seat pressure. I don't know why you feel that questioning my motives or results help you in any way, my character haven't miraculously shifted.

I have one full sponsor in 42 DD and multiple part-sponsors MCPi, SEM, USRT, Tyrolsport, and Gonzo isn't one of them. I don't have a single gonzo decal on my car and don't have them listed in my sponsor list when competing (verifiable). I'm simply a satisfied customer that is happy to have chosen a company that isn't trying to bottle my use of a hardware by limiting what I can/can't do with the product without cutting all warranty support. I hope this answers your questions, my motives and "claimed" results are real... they are not done using FFE's number-happy dyno but a real heartbreaking load-bearing mustang. Feel free to let me know if you have more questions and I'll gladly address them.

G-zo
12-10-2014, 07:29 PM
http://i.imgur.com/0qoBjR1.jpg