Important: Automatic td1!

[HyperM3]

Ok so I just read through some internal documents and it seems that no matter what, they will scan every car that comes through for any type of service.

This means any type of ECU flash, add-on, piggy-back or whatever will be flagged. Doesn't matter if you flash back to stock either, there are still little cookies left to alert the system.

My service department used to be able to work around the TD1 search by only updating the specific module that the car came in for. No matter what now when the computer is first hooked up it will automatically search for the ECU adaption.

None of this can be reversed in the system either. Once a car is flagged TD1, it stays with it forever.

Please be aware of this now if you choose to do any mods.

[LINDW4LL]

Thanks for the heads up about them scanning the car during any service.

Despite it being mentioned that the flash leaves a trace after being removed, I still have not seen ANY evidence on here of someone being flagged TD1 after flashing back to stock, even though hundreds of people on here regularly flash back to stock for dealer visits.

[CanuckRS]

does a vehicle also get flagged for using vcds to modify controllers like central electronics, suspension, comfort settings ...etc?

[LINDW4LL]

does a vehicle also get flagged for using vcds to modify controllers like central electronics, suspension, comfort settings ...etc?
No, only ECU modification.

[moosehead1]

Thanks Hyper. Not what we wanted to hear, but glad to know. Put your flamesuit on.

[CanuckRS]

No, only ECU modification.

can't see why they wouldn't. if you modify your suspension height for example, and it then needs warranty work later on, why would they repair it if they can detect changes from stock?

[Black3.2]

become friends with your service advisor, even if a car is flagged TD1 warranty work will still be performed. Audi would need to prove that the modification is the reason for the failure. Luckily i have never needed warranty work done, but my sales guy at the dealership has a TTRS with lots of aftermarket goodies that are all flagged as TD1 and his warranty work gets done - it does not matter that he is an employee either, he is treated just like a non-employee

[LINDW4LL]

can't see why they wouldn't. if you modify your suspension height for example, and it then needs warranty work later on, why would they repair it if they can detect changes from stock?
I didn't see air suspension in there. For that purpose, I suppose they could look at that and void your suspension warranty if an issue arose.

Other coding issues like lighting, seatbelt chime, etc... are not going to affect this.

[HyperM3]

Thanks Hyper. Not what we wanted to hear, but glad to know. Put your flamesuit on.

Oh, I know. Not what I wanted to post but I had to get this out there.

[Big Pat]

Thanks for the heads up about them scanning the car during any service.

Despite it being mentioned that the flash leaves a trace after being removed, I still have not seen ANY evidence on here of someone being flagged TD1 after flashing back to stock, even though hundreds of people on here regularly flash back to stock for dealer visits.

Yeah, we definitely need to get some clarification around this topic. Are people that are flashing back to stock for service getting flagged? This is what I was planning on doing...

[HyperM3]

Yeah, we definitely need to get some clarification around this topic. Are people that are flashing back to stock for service getting flagged? This is what I was planning on doing...

Just spoke with my service manager about this. He said he doesnt know how the new system is going to process the situation until a car comes in that has been flashed back to stock. This is going to be a "we dont know until we know" type scenario.

So who is willing to be the first guinea pig?

[CanuckRS]

i think everyone needs to read this carefully to understand the situation they get themselves into when they tune regardless of whether your best friend is the owner of the dealership or not.

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u275/Stunners4/misc/dscn0131b_zps75d6b660.jpg

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u275/Stunners4/misc/dscn0132nu_zpsd87d9060.jpg

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u275/Stunners4/misc/dscn0133uj_zps0b8a7ea3.jpg

[Silent Drone]

Am I the only one to notice that the release date on this TSB is March 2, 2012? That was 2 and a half years ago.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[moosehead1]

^Presumably the most recent version is considerably more aggressive per Hyper's OP.

[HyperM3]

Am I the only one to notice that the release date on this TSB is March 2, 2012? That was 2 and a half years ago.



^Presumably the most recent version is considerably more aggressive per Hyper's OP.

Yes, the one Im referring to was just released in the last week. However, everything posted above is basically laid out in full terms of what is and not covered. The big thing that the recent one changes is the fact that it cannot be circumvented by the techs anymore if they are a "friend".

[GTS21]

This thread makes me sad.

[airborne7]

Am I right in reading the above pics and reading into what Hyper says:

The above photo says the detection software is running in the background of normal diagnostics and cannot be circumvented.

Then it says not every tuned vehicle will be detected and coded TD1 and gives the spec/actual option. Is this due to the tech making this selection?

So now the software runs, but the tech doesn't get to choose, therefore ensuring the detection of a tune?

[agent47]

Yes, the one Im referring to was just released in the last week. However, everything posted above is basically laid out in full terms of what is and not covered. The big thing that the recent one changes is the fact that it cannot be circumvented by the techs anymore if they are a "friend".
What if a customer just asks the dealership to not scan the car when it goes in for regular maintenance? Just do the oil changes and other mechanical checks, but don't hook it up.

[bardo]

The older doc suggests that if they identify things on your car that would require a td1 it should be input manually (intakes, larger turbos, pulley, ecm piggy back/changes, etc).

[LINDW4LL]

The older doc suggests that if they identify things on your car that would require a td1 it should be input manually (intakes, larger turbos, pulley, ecm piggy back/changes, etc).
Most techs do not care about an intake, short shifter, etc... and will not go through the trouble to manually input it into the system. Not to mention, I wouldn't mind a TD1 for an intake... It's the ECU that really gives them power in denying claims.

Techs have always needed to hook your car up to the computer for certain work. I think the lesson is, don't go to the dealer unless necessary, and when you do; flash back to stock first.

[Brooklyn]

My read of the original TSB is that at the time it was written, the tool wasn't capable of - or programmed to - scan for a tune on every Audi/VW vehicle. Per Para 3, however, they anticipate new models being added to the tool over time, but in the event you're working on a car and you see certain mods that fall within the reporting threshold, the tech is obligated to report it. Hyper's new TSB seems to suggest that techs no longer have the option of scanning or not scanning the car. It must be scanned. Keep in mind that ultimately Audi pays the dealership for the repair work performed to your car under warranty. I can't imagine too many dealerships would be happy with a tech circumventing the process, your car needing some big repair that's covered under warranty, and Audi not reimbursing the dealership for that work if Audi were to somehow determine that your car should have been TD1'd but wasn't because the tech opted not to scan it. A lot of "ifs" in that equation for sure, but potentially expensive to the dealership if it goes south. Still appears to be some confusion as to whether a change in the "ecu" counter would trigger a TD1 regardless of whether the software has been returned to stock.

[agent47]

My read of the original TSB is that at the time it was written, the tool wasn't capable of - or programmed to - scan for a tune on every Audi/VW vehicle. Per Para 3, however, they anticipate new models being added to the tool over time, but in the event you're working on a car and you see certain mods that fall within the reporting threshold, the tech is obligated to report it. Hyper's new TSB seems to suggest that techs no longer have the option of scanning or not scanning the car. It must be scanned. Keep in mind that ultimately Audi pays the dealership for the repair work performed to your car under warranty. I can't imagine too many dealerships would be happy with a tech circumventing the process, your car needing some big repair that's covered under warranty, and Audi not reimbursing the dealership for that work if Audi were to somehow determine that your car should have been TD1'd but wasn't because the tech opted not to scan it. A lot of "ifs" in that equation for sure, but potentially expensive to the dealership if it goes south. Still appears to be some confusion as to whether a change in the "ecu" counter would trigger a TD1 regardless of whether the software has been returned to stock.
All I heard from APR was that they store the VIN specific stock files and once you flash back to stock, the counter is reset to what it was before tune , so there is no trace of tune. Tonnes of if's and buts there , its still a gray area. I have my car in for service as of today ( it has the tune and I told the foreman as well as the adviser not to scan, to which they agreed without any questions) . Tomorrow or Saturday will be judgement day [rolleyes]

[Brooklyn]

Good luck brother. Hopefully this new TSB hasn't been fully implemented yet.

[Ryan_qttro]

I'm a technician, you can choose to do spec actual or not. You do not have to do it when you scan car. There is also a quicker way to go into vehicle and reset light. Audi only requires a scan on the 15k service and 35k service and you do not have to do a spec actual then. Only time a spec actual is done is when you do a software update or want to check codings of modules. I have a few APR cars in my area, still have not been flagged. Specifically an R8 with APR tune. I ran an spec actual on it and no flag was ever put on it.
Just my 2 cents

[agent47]

Good luck brother. Hopefully this new TSB hasn't been fully implemented yet.
Thanks man. Hey this reminds me, get your car tuned..bwahaha :P There's just too much good to pass . I noticed another thing (could be on this A6 only) , but the car seemed a little rough and the paddleshifts are a little annoying. Or it could be just me [>_<]

[HeelBuff]

I fully understand the logic of Audi clamping down on tuned cars; quite simply, it's good for the bottom line. It's a shitty deal for dealers, though. The unintended consequence dealers will increasingly pay for is customers will choose to have profitable non-warranty work performed elsewhere at independent shops. Audi is feathering its nest at the expense of its distribution network. The big question is how much will the manufacturer save in bona-fide, obfuscated tune-related warranty expense by eliminating "flash back to stock" options for customers? This is different than asking how much incremental money will the manufacturer MAKE by enabling itself to avoid warranty expense even if the issue is unrelated to a tune. Contrast this mfg savings with the loss of business across the dealership network because thousands of car owners will avoid dealerships like the plague. I'm 99% confident the manufacturer is the clear winner and the dealerships are the clear losers.

[moosehead1]

^Good point HB, though on my past Audi's, once the warranty is out, I'm typically at an indy shop anyways. Those were cheaper vehicles, so perhaps that changes too.

[airborne7]

You are probably right HB.

MSRP's should reflect dealer losses soon enough...

[spyfish]

This means any type of ECU flash, add-on, piggy-back or whatever will be flagged. Doesn't matter if you flash back to stock either, there are still little cookies left to alert the system.

As an electrical engineer, this is exactly the type of thing I would be asked to do by a company. How can you hide data that indicates the ECU has been changed? I would expect Audi to keep working on a solution for this and that it is a cat & mouse game with aftermarket tuners. The goal for a customer would be just to understand the risk and how/when to play the game. This should be a surprise to no one if you want to play or if you have been playing the game for a long time.

[CanuckRS]

As an electrical engineer, this is exactly the type of thing I would be asked to do by a company. How can you hide data that indicates the ECU has been changed? I would expect Audi to keep working on a solution for this and that it is a cat & mouse game with aftermarket tuners. The goal for a customer would be just to understand the risk and how/when to play the game. This should be a surprise to no one if you want to play or if you have been playing the game for a long time.

indeed. audi has highly trained, expert engineers with complete unfettered control and access to the ecu who are dedicated to ecu encryption/security. oh, not to mention they generated about 200 billion euro in revenue last year alone. who has the upper hand here? [:p]

[HyperM3]

Hyper's new TSB seems to suggest that techs no longer have the option of scanning or not scanning the car. It must be scanned.

Yes and no. Basically in the past, if there was a TSB for a car, lets say the transmission needed a remap, you could go in with the tool and JUST do the read and recoding for the transmission. Now, no matter what specific module you need to update, the reader will be directed to read the entire ECU as well. So, if you dont want a TSB done and you have a tune, you dont need your car hooked up. However, Im pretty sure its going to be hooked up anyway as a precautionary measure in order to look for anything else that needs to be updated(not necessarily looking for a tune).

[airborne7]

Could your tech search for TSB's that apply to your VIN before you bring it?

[moosehead1]

Could your tech search for TSB's that apply to your VIN before you bring it?

Yes, I've done this multiple times with varying Audi Dealers over the phone.

[HyperM3]

Yes, I've done this multiple times with varying Audi Dealers over the phone.

^ Yup, completely doable.

[Brooklyn]

My guess is the "modified" population is significantly dwarfed by the unmodified population. For the vast majority of Audi owners this is likely a non-issue and the dealerships won't feel that big of a hit to their bottom line.


I fully understand the logic of Audi clamping down on tuned cars; quite simply, it's good for the bottom line. It's a shitty deal for dealers, though. The unintended consequence dealers will increasingly pay for is customers will choose to have profitable non-warranty work performed elsewhere at independent shops. Audi is feathering its nest at the expense of its distribution network. The big question is how much will the manufacturer save in bona-fide, obfuscated tune-related warranty expense by eliminating "flash back to stock" options for customers? This is different than asking how much incremental money will the manufacturer MAKE by enabling itself to avoid warranty expense even if the issue is unrelated to a tune. Contrast this mfg savings with the loss of business across the dealership network because thousands of car owners will avoid dealerships like the plague. I'm 99% confident the manufacturer is the clear winner and the dealerships are the clear losers.

[HeelBuff]

My guess is the "modified" population is significantly dwarfed by the unmodified population. For the vast majority of Audi owners this is likely a non-issue and the dealerships won't feel that big of a hit to their bottom line.

Certainly the modified population is tiny, probably 5% of all Audis covered under warranty. If service work declines 2%, 3% or more year-over-year then the dealer will definitely notice. Additionally, warranty work will decline because all the new TD1s will be ineligible. I'm betting the overall impact to dealers will be significant, albeit not catastrophic. It'll be enough to piss off some dealer partners and that's bad for business over the long term.

[Silent Drone]

What I don't understand is why Audi is so aggressive against its enthusiast customers. Wouldn't it be better for the brand to encourage the enthusiast? Just doesn't make sense to me.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[spyfish]

What I don't understand is why Audi is so aggressive against its enthusiast customers. Wouldn't it be better for the brand to encourage the enthusiast? Just doesn't make sense to me.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
It makes sense to me. How many will abuse the warranty given the option? I would bet they have paid out too many bogus claims. They can predict the number of failures and when the number of claims is significantly higher then they know something is wrong. Now if you are talking about their policy to deny all related parts then I might agree with you.

[discoverdeath]

Any of you guys with these cars familiar with odis? Seriously wondering why you guys are sad and concerned... Beyond paper work and updates why????

[discoverdeath]

What I don't understand is why Audi is so aggressive against its enthusiast customers. Wouldn't it be better for the brand to encourage the enthusiast? Just doesn't make sense to me.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Okay so within reason, why would a manufacture warrant parts for some thing that isn't in operating parameters of what was designed? What benefit would that have for any manufacture? Can the new tried and true slogan be pay to fucking play???

[Silent Drone]

It makes sense to me. How many will abuse the warranty given the option? I would bet they have paid out too many bogus claims. They can predict the number of failures and when the number of claims is significantly higher then they know something is wrong. Now if you are talking about their policy to deny all related parts then I might agree with you.

Certainly I don't know much about running a global automotive group. But there are some businesses/industries where a company can set itself apart and benefit from being more liberal with its customers. I'm thinks of something like REI or Costco who have extremely liberal return policies. Sure some people abuse that, but the overall benefit outweighs the abuse. Maybe its just different with cars. I just think audi could benefit by doing more to encourage the enthusiast, who is a great brand ambassador.

[Packy]

Some people talk about flashing it back before servicing. What about if youre driving down the road and it stops for some reason. You have to call for a flatbed. Do you have it towed to the tuner first to have is flashed back then to Audi? No, you're going to have it taken directly to Audi to get it running again and the FIRST thing they are going to do is scan it.

The car payments strech me to the limit, i can't afford to buy a new transmission (for example) out of pocket. I'm envious of those of you who tune worry free.

[Ensoniq]

You are probably right HB.

MSRP's should reflect dealer losses soon enough...

This is a good discussion point but I wonder if they have losses, gains, or break even.

Let's not forget that the cost of warranty is baked into the vehicle price and all those flagged td1 aren't offered a refund for their lost warranty.

[spyfish]

Certainly I don't know much about running a global automotive group. But there are some businesses/industries where a company can set itself apart and benefit from being more liberal with its customers. I'm thinks of something like REI or Costco who have extremely liberal return policies. Sure some people abuse that, but the overall benefit outweighs the abuse. Maybe its just different with cars. I just think audi could benefit by doing more to encourage the enthusiast, who is a great brand ambassador.
I am thinking aloud here.....

I think the difference between the business models is volume of sales.

[DB22]

I think that there would be a lot less people involved in tuning if Audi changed their marketing: 1. If the A6 had the 354 HP instead of the 310 or the 333. or 2. Offer A6 with 310, S6 with 354 and RS6 420. Leave the RS7 in it's present tune for the extreme enthusiasts.
The frustration for me was knowing that the A6 has 310 and knowing that additional HP is easily, safely and reliably available from the factory.

[moosehead1]

It's not just the cost exposure alone to the manufacturer, as seeing one interweb photo or post of a busted powerplant, tuned or not, is incredibly damaging to company goodwill. Same for less than consistent warranty coverage.

[airborne7]

GM has had hundreds of thousands of recalls. I would think that would effect a manufacturer more than a busted tuned engine. Yet pickups and SUV sales aren't slowing down for them. I think a busted engine would give people who want to tune more caution, but would not slow down everyday people from buying the product.

Seems more like Audi saying "We don't want to fix warranty work, so stop fucking with our cars. Yes, I know you agreed to pay me the price of a small (in some cases large house) but we set it up perfectly, so leave it alone"

Most people who buy cars do not search out tune info etc. If not for a friend who is a huge car guy telling me about ECU tunes, I wouldn't have known shit about them. Him telling me, lead to me to the Google, which lead me to here.

[agent47]

GM has had hundreds of thousands of recalls. I would think that would effect a manufacturer more than a busted tuned engine. Yet pickups and SUV sales aren't slowing down for them. I think a busted engine would give people who want to tune more caution, but would not slow down everyday people from buying the product.

Seems more like Audi saying "We don't want to fix warranty work, so stop fucking with our cars. Yes, I know you agreed to pay me the price of a small (in some cases large house) but we set it up perfectly, so leave it alone"

Most people who buy cars do not search out tune info etc. If not for a friend who is a huge car guy telling me about ECU tunes, I wouldn't have known shit about them. Him telling me, lead to me to the Google, which lead me to here.
I sure knew where to find temptation, didn't need guidance. bwahaha. But yeah, I hear you. We know (and Audi knows) our motors are built tough and they can handle a lot more than what you get from factory. But we should look at it like every other warranted product. Say, our mobile phones. Mine came with the factory installed firmware from samsung and if I flash it with custom rom, warranty goes out of the window because it is not the same as it was given to me by the company. So unless a company goes out and supports tunes (like BMW & DINAN I guess), its an uphill battle.

[airborne7]

You could also flash your phone back and not get busted, sort of like the jail break used to be for Apple. Didn't Apple finally just say "eff it" and stop trying to block the jail break?

Fact is, a very small portion of Audi owners are tuning within the first 3 years IMO. I was amazed at how fast some folks on here buy/tune/mod etc, but to each his own. I guess that is why some people just lease out.

I simply don't believe Audi is losing money on warranty claims due to tunes.

[Jokergod2000]

I bet someone could make a device that plugs the diagnostic port and would require a key to remove. I bet people would pay for that. I don't trust "please don't hook my car up to a computer".

[agent47]

You could also flash your phone back and not get busted, sort of like the jail break used to be for Apple. Didn't Apple finally just say "eff it" and stop trying to block the jail break?

Fact is, a very small portion of Audi owners are tuning within the first 3 years IMO. I was amazed at how fast some folks on here buy/tune/mod etc, but to each his own. I guess that is why some people just lease out.

I simply don't believe Audi is losing money on warranty claims due to tunes.
Hell no, they aren't losing any money on those. But every dollar saved is a dollar earned. I am in that category who tuned soon. I tuned mine 10 months into ownership.

I bet someone could make a device that plugs the diagnostic port and would require a key to remove. I bet people would pay for that. I don't trust "please don't hook my car up to a computer".
There is something like that already out there. The foreman I know at the dealership knows all ins and outs about this. And I trust him so it was put in caps on the RO that he will be the only one working on the car. And I called him up beforehand to tell him I was dropping the car off. Geez. The moderators should make tunes and td1 a sticky on this forum :P

[Brooklyn]

Ahh but even REI and Costco have had to alter their return policies to combat that abuse, and while a $2k tv or $300 jacket can be absorbed to preserve good will, it's another thing when it's a $20k engine.


Certainly I don't know much about running a global automotive group. But there are some businesses/industries where a company can set itself apart and benefit from being more liberal with its customers. I'm thinks of something like REI or Costco who have extremely liberal return policies. Sure some people abuse that, but the overall benefit outweighs the abuse. Maybe its just different with cars. I just think audi could benefit by doing more to encourage the enthusiast, who is a great brand ambassador.

[CreoSTi]

Ahh but even REI and Costco have had to alter their return policies to combat that abuse, and while a $2k tv or $300 jacket can be absorbed to preserve good will, it's another thing when it's a $20k engine.

Not to mention that most return policies require the item being returned to be in unused/new condition. I can't buy a back pack at REI, shorten the straps/dye a big happy face in the fabric/etc., and then expect REI to accept it back for a full refund...

[HeelBuff]

Ahh but even REI and Costco have had to alter their return policies to combat that abuse, and while a $2k tv or $300 jacket can be absorbed to preserve good will, it's another thing when it's a $20k engine.

That is a fair point. For some reason there is ZERO published data from Audi or APR regarding drivetrain failure rates for a given model of car with or without a tune. The fact Audi isn't publishing this and shouting it from the rooftops suggests the differential must be very small. In turn, this leads me and many of you to speculate and take risks that may or may not be good ones. A simple but useful set of stats would be for Audi to publish the total number of 3.0T engine failures under the warranty period in a given year, how many of those failed engines had a tune, and how many total vehicles with that engine had been sold to date. If those stats could be supplemented with info from APR, GIAC, etc. about how many total tunes they have sold for that engine, then we could get a sense for the likelihood an engine is going to fail with and without a tune.

[AudiTechS4]

at my dealer we have only had 3 that im aware of fail . 2 were tuned. 1 was after market warranty other was a stasis unit and stasis is gone . we goodwilled most of it since we were ths installing dealer.

[GrkA4]

This thread makes me sad.

Agreed. I'm very disappointed to hear this.

[agent47]

A simple but useful set of stats would be for Audi to publish the total number of 3.0T engine failures under the warranty period in a given year, how many of those failed engines had a tune, and how many total vehicles with that engine had been sold to date. If those stats could be supplemented with info from APR, GIAC, etc. about how many total tunes they have sold for that engine, then we could get a sense for the likelihood an engine is going to fail with and without a tune.
This is pretty much close to being a "recall" which I think would hurt Audi ( maybe that's what they think) because people looking for luxury imports would easily switch to BMW/Benz/Maserati/Jaguar/Land Rover. Too many equations in play here. My personal line of thought is that if the engine had to fail, it would fail even without a tune. Once tuned, Audi would have a bit of leverage to say "You're not my son anymore" . You could fight it by using M-V act and they would send an engineer down. It could go in your favor or against you. The safest path I think would be drive the car for X number of miles and if there are tiny bitty issues on the engine without the tune, it could mess up later on and if you are tuned at that time, well then "oh sh*t" .

[Silent Drone]

I simply don't believe Audi is losing money on warranty claims due to tunes.

Me neither.

What is strange to me is that it seems like Audi is out of sync with car culture for its enthusiast customers. Sure, audi's target customer is some type of rich guy who wants a luxury yet sporty ride and needs to be reassured that the car will run for a long long time. Why do you think they sell so many more A6s compared to the S6. The typical buyer isn't interested in upgrading the HP because 310 is plenty for that guy. That's all fine and good. But, if I were in charge of Audi marketing I think I would want to take care to make sure the enthusiast crowd is happy so that those guys would be constantly posting on Instagram, you tube, etc about how awesome Audi is treating them. That kind of buzz has tremendous value, especially in this day and age. So why not run the warranty program in a way that builds good will with the enthusiasts instead of alienating them? There are lots of ways to deal with the associated costs. But to just say "it's too much to have to deal with a 20k blown engine" misses the larger picture and squanders an opportunity.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[AudiTechS4]

company's like Audi don't grow from the 5-10% that mod under warranty. i think its funny you want a company to replace a 20K engine as you stated because you modified it lol. I mod cars all the time and if i blew and engine better believe i understand its on my dime. Now i do understand a tune is a tune , but your wanting company "a" to fix what company "b" might have caused. doesn't work like that

also td1 doesn't just look at if the programming has been changed it now can tell how many times the ecu has been flashed and if it has been flashed more then the update count bam td1.

mod at your own risk . ive replaced engine under warranty that have been modded its not an open and shut case . Some dealers will tell you no without even asking audi warranty.

[Silent Drone]

Not to mention that most return policies require the item being returned to be in unused/new condition. I can't buy a back pack at REI, shorten the straps/dye a big happy face in the fabric/etc., and then expect REI to accept it back for a full refund...

Obviously you have never experienced how returns are handled at these places. Lol. But it's not fair to compare a retail big box like this to Audi. The big box had a lot more leverage over its suppliers and is really a totally different kind of market. But I think it's still fair to reference them as the type of thing Audi could do better.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Silent Drone]

company's like Audi don't grow from the 5-10% that mod under warranty. i think its funny you want a company to replace a 20K engine as you stated because you modified it lol. I mod cars all the time and if i blew and engine better believe i understand its on my dime. Now i do understand a tune is a tune , but your wanting company "a" to fix what company "b" might have caused. doesn't work like that

also td1 doesn't just look at if the programming has been changed it now can tell how many times the ecu has been flashed and if it has been flashed more then the update count bam td1.

mod at your own risk . ive replaced engine under warranty that have been modded its not an open and shut case . Some dealers will tell you no without even asking audi warranty.

We're not talking about the same thing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[AudiTechS4]

then what are you saying ?

sound like you want to modify your can and if it breaks somone else needs to pay for it . not the company that made the modified part . why not ask apr/giac/... to pay for your engine.

[DoughBoyFreshLV]

company's like Audi don't grow from the 5-10% that mod under warranty. i think its funny you want a company to replace a 20K engine as you stated because you modified it lol. I mod cars all the time and if i blew and engine better believe i understand its on my dime. Now i do understand a tune is a tune , but your wanting company "a" to fix what company "b" might have caused. doesn't work like that

also td1 doesn't just look at if the programming has been changed it now can tell how many times the ecu has been flashed and if it has been flashed more then the update count bam td1.

mod at your own risk . ive replaced engine under warranty that have been modded its not an open and shut case . Some dealers will tell you no without even asking audi warranty.
Just curious to know what engines you have seen fail due to tuning? Thanks

[BoostEasy]

Audi probably doesn't give a shit if your car is tuned as long as it doesn't materially impact them. The amount of customers that tune an Audi vehicle worldwide is probably a small fraction of 1% and probably a very small slice of Audi Corp's warranty/TSB work they have to pay for in any given year.

When they scan all of the many modules in a car to check for required updates its probably fairly easy for them just to look at some items in the ECU such a max boost, max injector duty cycle etc and tell if a car has been tuned. So minimal effort for them and they can dragnet a few cars and give em shit. I highly doubt they have a crack team of anti-tuners figuring out new and interesting ways to punish the few of us that both tune and then come in for warranty work.

Also, unless you leave the tune (or at least the bootloader hack) on the ECU, I would doubt they'd be able to tell it was flashed- unless they really do spend the $ to task engineers with a way to store max boost achieved somewhere in the NVRAM of another module (eg ABS module) that will keep the flag for a scan to find. But again, I highly doubt they care. A larger concern someone actually raised on a BMW forum was if you're unfortunate enough to toast an engine/trans and have the "call home"/SOS feature on the car, it might actually SOS corp HQ and feed them info on what powertrain module died and provide freeze-frame info stats of what was happening when the failure took place. I've never seen this proved but I wouldn't be surprised if it exists.

It's next to impossible to tell a piggyback was ever on a car as long as you remove it before service. I had two JB4s, on my 08 and 11 335XIs, and always removed them before service with BMW and never had a problem.

[AudiTechS4]

Just curious to know what engines you have seen fail due to tuning? Thanks
i just said 2 - 3.0l that i know of at our dealership. a few 2.0l but they know those have piston issues and were covered under warranty




When they scan all of the many modules in a car to check for required updates its probably fairly easy for them just to look at some items in the ECU such a max boost, max injector duty cycle etc and tell if a car has been tuned. So minimal effort for them and they can dragnet a few cars and give em shit. I highly doubt they have a crack team of anti-tuners figuring out new and interesting ways to punish the few of us that both tune and then come in for warranty work.

Also, unless you leave the tune (or at least the bootloader hack) on the ECU, I would doubt they'd be able to tell it was flashed- unless they really do spend the $ to task engineers with a way to store max boost achieved somewhere in the NVRAM of another module (eg ABS module) that will keep the flag for a scan to find. But again, I highly doubt they care. A larger concern someone actually raised on a BMW forum was if you're unfortunate enough to toast an engine/trans and have the "call home"/SOS feature on the car, it might actually SOS corp HQ and feed them info on what powertrain module died and provide freeze-frame info stats of what was happening when the failure took place. I've never seen this proved but I wouldn't be surprised if it exists.


i also just stated that the ecu has a flash counter - they dont need to look at maps they see its been flashed more then just updates

[airborne7]

While I understand your point of the flash counter, I would think a person would win a case against them based on "Well there is no tune evident, but he flashed his ECU x amount of times, so he had to have done something wrong."

[AudiTechS4]

if 3.0's were geetting warrantied at the dealer on a regular basis the would most likely be warranting them more reguardless of tuning

[Westyfield2]

TBH, my opinion depends on what Audi's attitude is like.

If Audi are "If you have modified your car, then we won't want anything to do with warranty on the related components regardless of the cause of failure" then I think it's rubbish. What if its a manufacturing defect that would have happened anyway on a standard car?

Audi's attitude should be "If you have modified your car, we will scrutinise any failure in detail. If we find evidence that the failure was caused by the modifications, then we won't honour the warranty. But if we can't prove that the modifications were the cause, and it is likely that the failure would have happened anyway even with the car in its stock configuration, then we will honour the warranty as if the car were standard."

[Silent Drone]

TBH, my opinion depends on what Audi's attitude is like.

If Audi are "If you have modified your car, then we won't want anything to do with warranty on the related components regardless of the cause of failure" then I think it's rubbish. What if its a manufacturing defect that would have happened anyway on a standard car?

Audi's attitude should be "If you have modified your car, we will scrutinise any failure in detail. If we find evidence that the failure was caused by the modifications, then we won't honour the warranty. But if we can't prove that the modifications were the cause, and it is likely that the failure would have happened anyway even with the car in its stock configuration, then we will honour the warranty as if the car were standard."

Exactly. Well said. It it's the former that is a problem in my opinion. The latter is the way it is or should be. I have no problem with the latter.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Westyfield2]

Exactly. Well said. It it's the former that is a problem in my opinion. The latter is the way it is or should be. I have no problem with the latter.


And there would be no need to flash back to stock as you could be honest with them!

[HeelBuff]

And there would be no need to flash back to stock as you could be honest with them!

That's been my plan since the day I got a tune. Perhaps I'm too trusting of Audi, but how can I expect to trust them if I'm concealing my tune and giving them no reason to trust me.

[s6er]

Not to mention that most return policies require the item being returned to be in unused/new condition. I can't buy a back pack at REI, shorten the straps/dye a big happy face in the fabric/etc., and then expect REI to accept it back for a full refund...

Until mid-2013, you could have done exactly that.

For decades, REI's policy was that if you were unsatisfied for any reason they would take any purchase back. If you shortened the straps and dyed it, then it failed to perform as expected, they would take it back.

We bought hundreds of dollars of merchandise each year from REI, often at a higher price than we could get an identical item online, specifically because of the return policy. Note that "higher price" holds true after accounting for dividends.

In all those years, we returned one item, and that within a month of purchase. We hardly used the policy because the quality of merchandise was uniformly outstanding. We bought from REI because they guaranteed, for the usable life of the item, that quality. They put their money where their mouths were, so to speak.

The increasing D-baggery of the typical consumer over the last few years forced a change.

We hardly ever go into REI anymore because of this change. The warranty was that important.

I bought an Audi again in spite of the TD1 policy, but don't for a minute think it didn't give me pause. As stated elsewhere in this thread, if BMW can deal with it Audi should as well.

[Jokergod2000]

TBH, my opinion depends on what Audi's attitude is like.

If Audi are "If you have modified your car, then we won't want anything to do with warranty on the related components regardless of the cause of failure" then I think it's rubbish. What if its a manufacturing defect that would have happened anyway on a standard car?

Audi's attitude should be "If you have modified your car, we will scrutinise any failure in detail. If we find evidence that the failure was caused by the modifications, then we won't honour the warranty. But if we can't prove that the modifications were the cause, and it is likely that the failure would have happened anyway even with the car in its stock configuration, then we will honour the warranty as if the car were standard."

I'm on the other side of the fence with this one, even though I want to tune my car. I work with products that are replaced under warranty and I can tell you it's not easy or cheap to prove what caused an issue. It’s WAY easier to just void the warranty and be done with it.

Assuming something significant like an engine failure, from Audis perspective the questions are:
1. Should Audi be talking apart people's engines to try and convince the customer that the tune was at fault to void the claim? Who pays for that?
2. If Audi claimed the tune caused the failure would the customer then sue the tuner for damages? Would Audi have to be involved in the court case since they pointed the finger?
3. Does the tuning increase failures? Probably.
4. Does this impact the perceived quality of the brand? Yes.
5. Does Audi get anything at all out of letting you tune the car? No.
6. If they just mark you TD1 will it affect sales in any measurable way? Probably not.

I heard with Stasis gone Audi may start doing tunes on their own under warranty by 2016. If this is the case I’m signing up. If not I better save an n’case shit happens fund because it can be expensive if something goes wrong.

[VVG]

What I don't understand is why Audi is so aggressive against its enthusiast customers. Wouldn't it be better for the brand to encourage the enthusiast? Just doesn't make sense to me.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

What confuses me even more is why doesn't Audi sell it's own line of performance modifications, with a warranty. We all know these tunes are quite safe, so if Audi were to offer a conservative tune at a higher price with a warranty, I would take it for sure.

For instance, an APR tune on an S6 gives you 560hp for $1500. I would be willing to pay $2000 for, say, 520hp with an Audi warranty. Or how about a more aggressive aftermarket exhaust. I have BMW's own performance exhaust on my M3 for example, It sounds great, fitment is perfect and it is warrantied. It is more expensive but tons of people buy it because it is a BMW part.

Seems like a no-brainer win-win deal to me.

[oascom]

My car was at the dealer countless times with all mods on and my apr flash and they never td1 me. + to that my car had piston and rings changed and also a new turbo all out of warranty as a good will with all mods and flash. The head of Audi dealer told me the only thing I need to do is to remove my intake hose ( aftermarket) so he can snap a pic of my engine bay so that he don't get his ass kicked when aoa ask for it. I was talking with him and my service advisor about my tune and mods.... They also plugged my car to computer many times to read codes ( I had CEL for underboost) oh and this was week ago.

So I do believe that everything depends on the dealer if he's cool they wont flag you.

[spyfish]

Not to mention that most return policies require the item being returned to be in unused/new condition. I can't buy a back pack at REI, shorten the straps/dye a big happy face in the fabric/etc., and then expect REI to accept it back for a full refund...
Now that was funny

[spyfish]

Audi probably doesn't give a shit if your car is tuned as long as it doesn't materially impact them. The amount of customers that tune an Audi vehicle worldwide is probably a small fraction of 1% and probably a very small slice of Audi Corp's warranty/TSB work they have to pay for in any given year.

When they scan all of the many modules in a car to check for required updates its probably fairly easy for them just to look at some items in the ECU such a max boost, max injector duty cycle etc and tell if a car has been tuned. So minimal effort for them and they can dragnet a few cars and give em shit. I highly doubt they have a crack team of anti-tuners figuring out new and interesting ways to punish the few of us that both tune and then come in for warranty work.

Also, unless you leave the tune (or at least the bootloader hack) on the ECU, I would doubt they'd be able to tell it was flashed- unless they really do spend the $ to task engineers with a way to store max boost achieved somewhere in the NVRAM of another module (eg ABS module) that will keep the flag for a scan to find. But again, I highly doubt they care. A larger concern someone actually raised on a BMW forum was if you're unfortunate enough to toast an engine/trans and have the "call home"/SOS feature on the car, it might actually SOS corp HQ and feed them info on what powertrain module died and provide freeze-frame info stats of what was happening when the failure took place. I've never seen this proved but I wouldn't be surprised if it exists.

It's next to impossible to tell a piggyback was ever on a car as long as you remove it before service. I had two JB4s, on my 08 and 11 335XIs, and always removed them before service with BMW and never had a problem.
You greatly underestimate Audi. It might not be a crack team, but I bet they have some engineers on it. Heck when I was at Lexmark, we had an engineer or two working on methods to shut down the printhead after XX ink was dispensed. They were also looking at encryption methods to phone home and report what was going on and that is for a cheap, disposable printhead!

[The.Wizard]

Audi is purely driven by money and unit sales of units and aftermarket spares. Discrepancies over warranty claims is very costly, not so much as in the price of parts but more in the labour behind it all. Also worth considering is the fact of the market Audi wish to excel in... they are just interested in people who want to bling up or chav their vehicles...the middle to upper classes just don't approve of this dragging the brand down...
And before you shoot me down in flames I'm aware that folk like in this forum are more tasteful of their mods and improvements.
The Germans have become great at creating niche sectors in the market place and must hate it when someone like Harris vomes along and videos a tuned S4 competing against a standard RS4, showing up the differences and perceived costs and savings over one to the other.
Just something to think about.

[Ensoniq]

I simply don't believe Audi is losing money on warranty claims due to tunes.

I agree

In addition it the cost of warranty that Audi builds into the price, they also attract sales from their best in class engines that are more capable of increased power than their competition.

I specifically selected the rs7 because of the major power increase available from APR. I may have been in the m6 or panamera if all else was equal

[The.Wizard]

Having had several BMW's over the years I still think one of the best they made was the e46.. I've had the 330Ci and a M3 convertible and two 1 Series. .the later models are not so well screwed together and definitely made down to a price. Audi's are definitely a better place to spend time in.

[Xtek]

I'm pretty sure this only applies to newer model cars.

My (2014 S6) still goes through a Spec or Actual scan.

[bisonwt009]

@Xtek So you mean you just visited the dealership?

[Xtek]

I don't want to give my hand away but I'll say it shouldn't be much different. If anything its most likely a process change, I'll report back later.

[agent47]

Ok so I got my car back today. I had asked them not to scan the car. And they didnt. They did replace a few things they saw that were working erroneously. But yeah, no TD1 for now.

[TwoK4drSi]

What dealership?

[agent47]

What dealership?
PM'd you. On a side note, I am kind of glad I didn't get my car flashed to stock. There is so much difference between stock and APR. The 2 days I had the loaner, I just missed the power delivery. Stage 2 is coming soon now!

[07S6]

Ok so I got my car back today. I had asked them not to scan the car. And they didnt. They did replace a few things they saw that were working erroneously. But yeah, no TD1 for now.
Care to share what items were malfunctioning on the car? thanks!

[agent47]

Care to share what items were malfunctioning on the car? thanks!
Windshield washer fluid pump and rearview mirror motor [:p]

[Jokergod2000]

Windshield washer fluid pump and rearview mirror motor [:p]

And how do they know those were not affected by the additional G's put on them? lol

[agent47]

And how do they know those were not affected by the additional G's put on them? lol
Bwahaha. If AoA could, they would deny warranty on this also :P You know all that power putting additional stress on these items :P

[monoseanism]

My car was flagged TD1 a few months back, even after having a good relationship with my dealer and asking for it not to be scanned. Audi is really tightening down on tuning, unfortunately for us.

[dennisg]

My car was flagged TD1 a few months back, even after having a good relationship with my dealer and asking for it not to be scanned. Audi is really tightening down on tuning, unfortunately for us.

How did you find out that it had occurred?

[bisonwt009]

My car was flagged TD1 a few months back, even after having a good relationship with my dealer and asking for it not to be scanned. Audi is really tightening down on tuning, unfortunately for us.
Did you flash back to stock prior to the visit? I would imagine you were probably pretty pissed when you heard you were flagged.

[sap_pete]

Is there a legitimate reason to tell the dealer why you wouldn't want your car scanned, or is it pretty much just telling them that the car is modded, and please don't look too closely ?

[VVG]

My car was flagged TD1 a few months back, even after having a good relationship with my dealer and asking for it not to be scanned. Audi is really tightening down on tuning, unfortunately for us.

So basically you asked your dealer not to scan the car and they did it anyway. So much for the "good relationship".

[monoseanism]

How did you find out that it had occurred?

They showed me the paperwork stating that it was flagged, when I asked why they said they had to scan it to properly diagnosis the problems I brought it in for (weird notchy steering). Honestly I'm not too mad about it, this is my third new Audi I've bought in 5 years (S4, R8, S7) and have never had any issues over warranty claims, and I've tuned them all.

Also, I did not flash back to factory, I thought I could trust my dealer saying they wouldn't scan.

[Pip]

I guess the real question is ... has anyone flashed back to stock but got flagged TD1 by the dealer anyway ??

[Jokergod2000]

I guess the real question is ... has anyone flashed back to stock but got flagged TD1 by the dealer anyway ??

This

[texsun]

Would the the TD1 flag show up in regular service receipts? I flashed back to stock and went in for annual maintenance a couple of months back. No mention of it from my SA and will double check the paperwork.

[sciblades]

This

me

[bisonwt009]

me

Just want to point out that sciblades also has aftermarket hardware on his car, like modified turbos, intercooler, among other things if i remember correctly. So it's the physical evidence on his car that got him flagged. No offense intended, sciblades, just want to let ppl know.

So the real, real question is ... has anyone who has the ecu tuned as the only mod on his/her car got flagged due to the new service scan policy change despite reflashing back to stock prior to dealer visit?

[sciblades]

Just want to point out that sciblades also has aftermarket hardware on his car, like modified turbos, intercooler, among other things if i remember correctly. So it's the physical evidence on his car that got him flagged. No offense intended, sciblades, just want to let ppl know.

So the real, real question is ... has anyone who has the ecu tuned as the only mod on his/her car got flagged due to the new service scan policy change despite reflashing back to stock prior to dealer visit?

the flag was pre tbe exhaust, they still don't realize the rs7 turbos are in there. they have replaced the coolant lines to them, and also when they removed my down pipes they broke a stud on a turbo so they retapped it and put a new stud in all under warranty.

the td1 came after they replaced the mechatronic unit, the reason my car was flagged was because the tq reading on the car was above stock, this won' affect anyone unless they need a new mec unit or dsg.

[Pip]

the td1 came after they replaced the mechatronic unit, the reason my car was flagged was because the tq reading on the car was above stock, this won' affect anyone unless they need a new mec unit or dsg.

I think the most likely drive terrain warranty claim arising from Stage 1 will be the mechatronic unit (or it's printed circuit board getting fried). Followed by cracked pistons ...

Do you mean to say that the Mech Unit has a separate LOG for TQ readings that doesn't get erased by flashing ECU back to stock and resetting error codes ?

Sorry ... didn't understand the Mech Unit TQ too high part.

Cheers :)

[Pip]

Can I ask the same question (twice) again ...

Has anyone with (Only) Stage 1 tune (no other visible mods) been flagged TD1 after flashing back to stock ??

[HeelBuff]

I think the most likely drive terrain warranty claim arising from Stage 1 will be the mechatronic unit (or it's printed circuit board getting fried). Followed by cracked pistons ...

Do you mean to say that the Mech Unit has a separate LOG for TQ readings that doesn't get erased by flashing ECU back to stock and resetting error codes ?

Sorry ... didn't understand the Mech Unit TQ too high part.

Cheers :)

Forgive my ignorance, but for those of us with the ZF single clutch 8-speed, do we need to worry about any sort of mechatronic unit?

[LINDW4LL]

Forgive my ignorance, but for those of us with the ZF single clutch 8-speed, do we need to worry about any sort of mechatronic unit?

You actually have a torque converter, not a clutch. And correct, no mechatronics to worry about.


Sent from my iPhone 6 using Tapatalk

[Packy]

I had a transmition oil leak in my S6. Completely unrelated to a tune, I'm not tuned. However the dealer made a point of telling me if it was tuned, it would not have been covered. I'd atleast let the car be old enough to check for bugs such as this before tuning.

[turbonator S6]

I had a transmition oil leak in my S6. Completely unrelated to a tune, I'm not tuned. However the dealer made a point of telling me if it was tuned, it would not have been covered. I'd atleast let the car be old enough to check for bugs such as this before tuning.

The dealer could always make up some bs like "the extra power due to the tune put increased stress on the transmission and caused the leak". Same thing with the cooling system - "A tuned engine runs hotter, thus putting more stress on the cooling system components". Audi can pretty much take this line of reasoning as far as they want and - on a practical basis - it would be up to the owner to prove otherwise.

[nobbyv]

The dealer could always make up some bs like "the extra power due to the tune put increased stress on the transmission and caused the leak". Same thing with the cooling system - "A tuned engine runs hotter, thus putting more stress on the cooling system components". Audi can pretty much take this line of reasoning as far as they want and - on a practical basis - it would be up to the owner to prove otherwise.

*Technically*, according to Magnuson-Moss, it would be up to Audi to prove the extra power created the leak. But *practically*, you're right, and it would likely take an owner filing a small claims suit should AoA deny a warranty claim for an issue we'd agree is likely unrelated to a tune.