PDA

View Full Version : Wouldn't Start, now shop says totalled...help!



DisscoStu9
07-31-2014, 09:42 PM
A few months ago my 2000 1.8t wouldn't start, sounded normal, but never turned over, a day later I got it going randomly, just trying every now and then, straight to the shop, they couldn't find a problem or re create it. Few weeks later ur happened again...then started. Over and over for weeks. Then one day while driving, slow thankfully, it just shut down, pulled over, wouldn't start back up, 10 minutes later it did, straight to shop, exact same thing. It did this to me once more, got it home, then a few days later after it being normal, it wouldn't start, but now doesn't even rumble and try to turn over, just makes an angry sound.

Got it towed to the shop, he says there are no bad codes, he thinks it ate the timing belt, and if so needs a new engine, and even for him to open it up to check the belt and stuff will be a lot of hours of work. I had the belt job done at 85k by a real good place, and it's at 130,000 now.

I dont know if i should trust this guy's opinion, seems like a nice enough guy, doesn't want to cost me needless $ just to check. Sony know if I should sell it, fix it, check it myself, get a new opinion, or if I should go after the other place states away that did the belt(is there a warranty on that work/part?)....

totally blown away by this, just moved and paid a million deposits, broke, no idea. Can prob get a video of the noises tomorrow. Any ideas? Thanks in advance

BrokeDown[20V]
07-31-2014, 09:49 PM
There are only a few easy to remove clips to view the timing belt. The place you brought it to must not be familiar with the car. U simply remove the plastic cover to view the belt. It can be done in under 15 mins.(That is simply to view if the belt snapped) Tow the car to somewhere else if you are unable to work on the car urself. If you need help to simply view the belt we can assist you in how to go about it.

A few extra questions, When the car shut off, was the battery dead when in stalled or did the car just die with the electronics on. Does the angry sound come from the starter? There are so many variables in this situation.

DisscoStu9
07-31-2014, 10:04 PM
Thank you. When it died both times the electronics stayed on, battery was ok, it had died a few times during all this, but jumped it fine, and actually have a new battery in there now at this guy's suggestion to rule that out. The only other shop around that knows audi is good, but a scumbag, you can't get the oil changed without him staying you have to replace the transmission. Im not really sure what is making the sound, it sounds like it's trying to start, but nothing physically moves in the engine like normal or before, no turning over attempt. Would I be able to see the issue with the belt if that is the issue, and/or rule it out by viewing?

BrokeDown[20V]
07-31-2014, 10:10 PM
Yeah, if the belt is broken the car can not make compression for the motor to start. Also every time you try to start the car the pistons are going to smack the valves(since the motor is not moving) causing more damage. If you think the timing belt may be the problem, do not try starting the car unless you know its not the problem.

When you open the cover you will see the belt, I don't mean to insult your intelligence at all, but it looks like one to hold ur pants up(kinda lol)..reach down and see if it still has tension. Another problem could be the Timing belt tensioner could be frozen/seized not letting the belt to move freely.

It just does not sound like ur mechanic knows too much about your engine…hours to see if the belt snaped is a lie on his part.

SynapticA4TQM
08-01-2014, 02:44 AM
If the timing belt is broken... Things will be VERY noisy!!! Does everything seem normal when it does run?

Lornnn
08-01-2014, 02:55 AM
You do not need to pull the entire front end off to check the timing belt. Anyone who tells you this is an idiot who shouldn't work on your car or a piece of shit. You can pull the top timing belt cover off to see if it is still intact.

From the 1.8T timing belt DIY:
Remove timing belt cover. There should be two clips that need to be released; one left and one right.
http://www.brrman.com/audi/tbelt_diy/TimingBeltDIY_files/image031.jpg
http://www.brrman.com/audi/tbelt_diy/TimingBeltDIY_files/image032.jpg

BrokeDown[20V]
08-01-2014, 04:51 AM
^^Exactly what I was referring to.

DisscoStu9
08-01-2014, 05:43 AM
Thanks again all. I will try to get to the car to inspect the belt today, though don't know know exact what I'll say to the guy when I do. Hopefully I'll be able to figure out what it's what when I get in there

U_know_me
08-01-2014, 05:49 AM
Thanks again all. I will try to get to the car to inspect the belt today, though don't know know exact what I'll say to the guy when I do. Hopefully I'll be able to figure out what it's what when I get in there

Tell him exactly what you are doing, that you know how to look at the belt in under 5 min for free and he clearly doesnt know what he is talking about.

DisscoStu9
08-01-2014, 06:27 AM
Ha, sounds good. I found like 5 different diy pages for diff years and some vw, is there one diy or YouTube if this that is most applicable by my car, or easiest follow?

U_know_me
08-01-2014, 06:51 AM
Ha, sounds good. I found like 5 different diy pages for diff years and some vw, is there one diy or YouTube if this that is most applicable by my car, or easiest follow?

It is as easy as the post above describes.
- two tabs that are pictured on the cover closest to the front of the engine, pop those two tabs
-lift the coolant hose clipped to the cover away from the cover
- pull the cover out slightly, then up towards you, it should come out pretty easy.

You now can see the timing belt, cam gear and tensioner
- push on the timing belt, it should have a lot of tension and not move very much.

If you have any questions during the process post pics on here of your car and we will lead you.

DisscoStu9
08-01-2014, 07:09 AM
Thanks guys, very much, hopefully later today I'll be able to get to it. Wish I could just kidnap one of you to come down there with me for a half hour :)

Avant Nate
08-01-2014, 07:39 AM
How could an intermittent starting or running issue be a timing belt? Put your key into the ignition and turn it to on position. Does your CEL light up? My guess is an intermittent power issue to the ECU.

Just another case where Vag-com would be invaluable.

BrokeDown[20V]
08-01-2014, 07:46 AM
A timing belt can snap at any time if you think about it (flawed belt, bad tensioner, seized roller)..the power issue could just be another factor not even related.

The power issue I tried to elaborate on prior asking if the car still had electronics when it shut off, since it could be a grounding problem or the alternator sending unit could be going bad not charging the battery when needed. There are a few process for the car electronically to start being a good starter and ignition switch.

He said it did turn over but wouldn't start before all this weird noise stuff..The electronic fuel pump could be on the way out also..sometime sending fuel, sometimes not. From the description there are a ton of variables that need to be accounted for. We all know the engine needs AIR/FUEL/SPARK

woolveren
08-01-2014, 08:08 AM
Sounds like your mechanic doesn't even know how to check the timing belt, to be honest it only takes 5 minutes to pull that cover from the engine and ispect the belt. Sounds like you should not take your car to this guy.

I also don't think the issue is timing belt related. Post a video of the sound, it will help us to guide you in the right direction, the issue might be caused by something else...

walky_talky20
08-01-2014, 09:04 AM
I think the intermittent no-start is a red herring. It had that problem, and now it has an additional problem: the t-belt failed. The problems need not be related.

I can't be sure of this as we don't have timing photos, or crank noise video. All we have is a description of "angry sounding" cranking. What I'm saying is: car had symptom 1 (intermittent no start). And at a later point in time has developed an additional problem.

Avant Nate
08-01-2014, 11:09 AM
It sounds like he was able to drive it home though even after it shut down while driving. Maybe he blew up his starter with so many long cranks.

walky_talky20
08-01-2014, 11:40 AM
^Interesting theory. I like that.

Cactus Avant
08-01-2014, 11:53 AM
Yeah, definitely check the timing belt cover. My timing belt snapped about a year ago. When I pulled off that timing belt cover, the belt wasn't even sitting on the camshaft gear, annnnnnnd thats how I knew I was screwed. I just got repair parts, and I was on my way. Theres a big chance you would not need to replace the whole engine. (I have a build thread and the repairs are all in there.)

However, unlike others have said, when my belt snapped there were no loud or weird noises. Everything sounded normal to be honest. When I tried to crank the engine, everything seemed normal, but it wouldn't start. Like others have said, if your timing belt broke, you wouldn't be able to drive at all.

Check the belt, but I'm pretty sure its not it

melomandn
08-01-2014, 12:13 PM
Sounds to me like it's a crank position sensor. When mine started to go the car would randomly die and getting it to start was just luck of the draw. It would start maybe 1 out of every 8 times I tried.
Never threw a code, but once the sensor was replaced everything went back to normal.

DisscoStu9
08-01-2014, 12:49 PM
Alkyl I can say now till I get to the car is that if I broke the belt, it must have happened as I tried to start it, because it drove back to my house fine the night before, parked, then woke up to it busted. Certainly I have cranked a loooot recently, could be ware on the starter fore sure. Like I said, maybe tonight, but prob tom, till I can get to it and take a video

DisscoStu9
08-01-2014, 12:50 PM
Ps you guys are great, thanks again

walky_talky20
08-01-2014, 02:40 PM
Just a comment about checking the t-belt. Even if it's tight, and in place, it can still be bad. The teeth usually rip off down on the crank cog. So to be sure, you have to watch to see if the cam rotates as you crank the starter.

http://i1006.photobucket.com/albums/af190/bkutlesa/contt-belt_zps773dc6e1.jpg

DisscoStu9
08-01-2014, 07:23 PM
Alright, I had time to take a quick video today, but not get under the hood, worked 12 hours today, just no time, maybe tom. I did re ask the guy if it was just impossible to see the belt without hours of work, he said "yeah, all those German cars, just so much stuff jammed under the hood", so my verdict on him is honest, just doesn't know audi for shit, and also clearly lazy, because evidently he didn't look too hard, or at all.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r48cKr2u5wo&feature=youtu.be

walky_talky20
08-01-2014, 08:58 PM
Sounds like the t-belt is broken.

Pop the top cover off and do the exact same video, but with the camera looking at the camshaft sprocket/t-belt. You can either remove the cover completely, or just pull it back far enough to peek behind. Just need to see if the belt is moving while cranking or not.

B5_Avant_Noob
08-01-2014, 09:12 PM
That honestly sounds like the starter isn't even engaged to me...

Avant Nate
08-01-2014, 09:19 PM
I didn't see a CEL, please refer to my previous post.
no ecu= no fuel and no spark

walky_talky20
08-02-2014, 07:48 AM
CEL is coming on in the video. Sounds like no compression, though.

Avant Nate
08-02-2014, 06:00 PM
Ok, i'm a dummy. 2000 dash is different than a 99.5. I wish he would check his timing belt already[:D]

walky_talky20
08-02-2014, 08:20 PM
I know, right? ;)

DisscoStu9
08-04-2014, 10:38 AM
Haha, im so sorry guys, just happened at a bad time. I work crazy hours for a while, then have days off. I might just try tonight, im just afraid it will be tough by flashlight since I've never done this before.
In the meantime, I've been checking my options if it is toast. Trade, maybe repair, or sell (sad it's worth so little now not running, otherwise, and ascetics of the car still great).

But anyway thanks again all, ill compile all the belt videos and diys and go by flashlight tonight, wish me luck

DisscoStu9
08-04-2014, 11:08 AM
I'm pouring through all these pictures and videos and problem is they are all zoomed in or with half the thing taken apart, there's no real video of anyone just flung in there and poking it, so I'm not exactly sure which belt it is (sorry, I know, total layman), but I think I can figure it out, and take a video closer up for you guys. One YouTube video

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Fpq9lgrygbg

Seems to be the best view of the belt I found with my engine

SquishyPanda
08-04-2014, 11:12 AM
Friend me on Facebook and I'll go make a video right now of where you need to look to visually inspect the timing belt and post it for you. facebook.com/squishypanda

walky_talky20
08-04-2014, 11:41 AM
I don't care about the poking or what-have-you. What you care about is this:

A - When you engage the starter, do your crankshaft and camshaft both rotate together? (ie: do both your alternator belt and timing belt move during cranking?)
B - If A is true, is the engine still in time? (or has the t-belt jumped teeth?)

SquishyPanda
08-04-2014, 12:15 PM
Ah I guess I could use youtube then we don't have to deal with facebook.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fUoG5X-4LU&index=1&list=UUxiw8ohKO05yAniGBXCXd3A

That is what your mechanic is trying to charge you "hours of labor" for. You don't even need tools if you own at least one finger.

DisscoStu9
08-04-2014, 01:13 PM
Ahahaha, wow that was stupid easy...I can do that in the dark for sure, you should come put this guy out of business. Thanks so much squishy.

Walky- if I expose the belt like he showed, then try to start, would I be able to tell what you're asking? Or far more likely if I take a video of it will someone what be able to tell?

SquishyPanda
08-04-2014, 01:56 PM
Once you expose the belt using my highly classified techniques, just have someone try to start the car and see if the belt moves. If it doesn't move, you're in trouble. If it does move, you're in a different sort of trouble, but maybe not so bad.

walky_talky20
08-04-2014, 04:08 PM
^This.

lol'ing @ Squishy's Video.

DisscoStu9
08-04-2014, 07:53 PM
Gasp....I think the belt is ok...ill wait till yall watch. But it's tight, maybe an eighth of an inch give in the belt.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07P1McSp3Y8&feature=youtu.be

walky_talky20
08-04-2014, 09:08 PM
Belt is good. If it's tight like you say, the timing is probably fine (meaning it probably didn't jump). That jives with your intermittent issues as well. It is probably related to that: intermittent no-start finally turned into a never-start-again thing.

It does sound like kinda low compression, however these 5-valve Audi engines are common to sound like that when they sit for a long while without starting. Even when there is nothing mechanically wrong.

Based on the checks you have performed, I would say likely cause would be faulty fuel pump, faulty crank position sensor (aka engine speed sensor), or faulty coolant temp sensor. I would test like so:
- Check the timing. Just for good measure.
- Check for strong spark. If it passes, the crank sensor is good.
- Check coolant temp value in VCDS. (Alternative: unplug coolant temp sensor).
- Check fuel pressure (alternative: check if plugs are wet, or pull fuel rail up and see if they spray during cranking, or at the very least, listen to the pump during cranking)

For a quick mechanic, all of the above should be doable in ~30 minutes. Billable for 1 hour.

Mad Cow
08-04-2014, 09:34 PM
That really does sound like low compression, and it seems even across all 4 cylinders. My first guess would be jumped timing, it's easy to check but you do need a large 12 point socket to turn the motor over. Look at any timing belt DIY for details, it'll be covered. I've had similar symptoms once when I put in a bad timing chain tensioner too, when cranking it sounded like it had zero compression and wouldn't start. I did get it started once by a miracle and could describe the sound it made as angry, if not seriously angry. I doubt your tensioner would go bad so suddenly, but anything's possible. Can't check that without taking off the valve cover though.

DisscoStu9
08-04-2014, 09:53 PM
Thanks walky, are you a mechanic? I'd much rather pay you and squish than this guy who is clearly clueless. Which brings up the question, is there anything in what you just described that is audi specific? Sounds basic to me, but I don't want this guys head to explode over 6 hours because he's never seen how a _____ in an audi is laid out.

DisscoStu9
08-04-2014, 10:03 PM
Also, just re reading your list of possibilities. I did a while back have the coolant light thing flash on me, it was filled fine and temps were all ok, then it eventually went off. Also, is the starter a possible culprit? I'm thinking about all those times it sounded fine, but never started, then when it finally did went fine

walky_talky20
08-04-2014, 10:21 PM
That really does sound like low compression, and it seems even across all 4 cylinders.

I agree. It probably is low compression, but this is actually pretty common. My brother's car sounded exactly like this when his coolant temp sensor caused a no-start. You should have seen his face! It sounded 100% like nearly zero compression across the board, and it was just a lean mix at cold start. These 5-valve heads, for whatever reason, are prone to sounding like the world is ending if they are cranked much whilst missing something important (fuel, spark). The 30v V6's are even worse. With so many valves, I think it is just a propensity for at least one per cylinder to stick open a tiny bit due to carbon, etc. The sloppy VVT system doesn't help either.


Thanks walky, are you a mechanic?
No. I am not a mechanic. Please see my signature.


Which brings up the question, is there anything in what you just described that is audi specific?
Nope. That's all pretty standard EFI no-start diagnosis. The only thing that can be tricky is finding timing marks on a non-familiar engine. But the 1.8t marks are exceedingly standard in appearance and location.


is the starter a possible culprit? I'm thinking about all those times it sounded fine, but never started, then when it finally did went fine
Starter sounds ok. And is doing it's job.

DisscoStu9
08-04-2014, 11:35 PM
Kidding about the mechanic thing, just funny to me how much more your know than the guy I have to pay. Ill prob go by there before work tom with that list for him to go through, maybe even mention how quick it should be. Should be awkward when I tell him I checked the belt in 2 minutes in the dark

DisscoStu9
08-05-2014, 07:57 AM
Alright, I went to the shop this morning, with the list you gave me, and told him I checked the belt, seemed ok. He said he still thinks the belt missed by a tooth or two, but again, too expensive to check. I then asked if he could just do the list, he said well the compression might be toast, and if so no point in any of that. I told him what you all said about compression, said he never heard of variable compression on cars. I asked again he could do the list, he said maybe I'd he could find all the places in the engine. After me asking a few more times, he basically talked me out of doing the tests because they were needlessly expensive and he thinks not the problem anyway.

Again, nice guy, honest, toooo honest, but really slow, and unwilling to do what I ask.
So, can I do this stuff myself, or should I get aaa to tow it to another guy. Like I said before, there is one good audi mechanic, but he's a thief, I'd only go to him if I had the parts and just got him to do quick labor.

Mad Cow
08-05-2014, 08:26 AM
Go to another mechanic, I think yours just doesn't want to deal with an Audi. Checking the timing literally takes another 5 minutes after taking the top timing cover off like you did.

woolveren
08-05-2014, 08:40 AM
These 5-valve heads, for whatever reason, are prone to sounding like the world is ending if they are cranked much whilst missing something important (fuel, spark).

When my car's fuel pump died last yr, it sounded like no compression in between cranks.. but not all the time though.

Similar to this below>


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Hosy1u1W2I

walky_talky20
08-05-2014, 08:58 AM
You can do most of that list yourself with a buddy and a single screwdriver. I would encourage you to do the following, if you are interested:

- Buy a $10 VCDS cable on ebay (from usa so you don't wait a month). Borrow somebody's XP laptop. Check the codes and coolant temp value.
- Check the timing:


Step 1: Carefully remove upper t-belt cover. It just unclips.
Step 2: get engine to TDC

This is where it being a manual car makes this super easy. Just stick it in top gear (5th or 6th, depending on how awesome you are), and push the car forward. Out of room? Select neutral and push it back. On a hill? Well...that sucks, I can't help you. The mark on the camshaft (that's the top one!) is what you want to watch here. Get that to be approaching 12 o'clock. That's where the mark is on the valve cover.

Once that is "close", start looking at the crankshaft. You want to get the pulley mark lined up with the "divot" on the metal cover. Look closely:

http://i1330.photobucket.com/albums/w575/walky_talky21/b6-crank-timing_zpsb865960f.png

Step 4: Once the crank is at exactly TDC, look at your camshaft again. If the timing is perfect, you'll see this:

http://i1330.photobucket.com/albums/w575/walky_talky21/18T-cam-tdc_zps6155c733.png

If the marks are way off, you got problems.

If you're still looking for Step 3...just consider that a Beer step and move on.

- Check for spark:


This is checked with a long screwdriver pushed in the end of the coil pack. Hold the shaft of the screwdriver about 1/16" away from the valve cover and have somebody crank the engine. You should see a strong blue spark. There is actually a $10 tool for this which does the same thing. It is shown in this video at the 2:15 mark:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PeGXQ0OTkvA


Get a screwdriver that fits securely into the coil pack, that way you can just hold the "head" of the coil pack and keep your hands away from the high voltage discharge end of things. If you shock yourself, it hurts. You can also stuff a spark plug in the end and hold it against the valve cover. I like the screwdriver method so I can tell how strong the spark is (by increasing the gap myself).

- Check for fuel. Listen to the pump during cranking. Or Use VCDS "output test" mode to run the pump constantly without the engine running. Makes it easy to hear. Pull one or more spark plugs to see if they are wet after a bit of cranking. Probably a good idea to just throw new ones in while you're there. Wet plugs can make it difficult to start a cold engine.

Koldham
08-05-2014, 09:04 AM
wont a compression test rule out all internal problems? thats a hella simple driveway test.

walky_talky20
08-05-2014, 09:17 AM
If he can borrow a tool, sure. I feel that he may get artificially low numbers due to the current state of things, and a quick check of the timing should be plenty. But any extra information we can get is good.

fR3ZNO
08-05-2014, 11:25 AM
The video the OP posted sounded a lot like my 30v when the belt shredded. I had zero compression in all cylinders. It was a sad day when I pulled back those timing covers. lol

DisscoStu9
08-05-2014, 10:33 PM
The one thing this guy said he would do is check the compression, for pretty cheap. Maybe I can get him to stumble through that, then do the rest myself, if it still makes sense to. Also apparently he ran codes and got nothing, but I kinda don't trust him on that either. As long as I don't have to take too much apart, or actually hold that sparking screwdriver I think I can handle that list

DisscoStu9
08-05-2014, 11:06 PM
I can get this guy nearby, will this due just the same?http://m.advanceautoparts.com/mt/shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/dorman-conduct-tite-electrical-tester-in-line-spark-plug-checker-86579/22144233-P?searchTerm=spark+tester&zoneAssigned=1&un_jtt_redirect

walky_talky20
08-06-2014, 06:10 AM
lol @ holding the screwdriver. It's not so bad. Here is a video where a guy shows 2 methods to check for spark without any special "spark tester" tools.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZceAZgZBn9E

The only important thing is to keep the gap small until the cranking is done. You have to give the spark a place to jump to. If you "pull back" and widen the gap too far, it will have no choice but to jump to your hand.

Usually when somebody gets zapped, the story goes like this:
- You get screwdriver in place
- "Buddy" cranks engine
- Spark is jumping and looks great
- You get frightened and/or are done with the test
- You "pull back", widening the gap considerably in efforts to stop the sparking
- "Buddy" is still cranking the engine
- Spark cannot jump to the metal object anymore due to distance being too far
- Jumps to your hand instead
- You may feel some resentment towards your "buddy"

You can see this play out in real time, courtesy of Bamse's Turbo Underpants. Skip to 3:33 to see the action unfold. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rAAzmDgYiA)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rAAzmDgYiA

You can see Bamse makes a critical error at 3:45.
Moral of the story: Do not pull back until the engine has stopped turning. Give the spark an easy place to jump to and nobody needs to get zapped.

If you do want to buy a tool, the one you linked is not really what you want. That is to go in-line on an engine with spark plug wires. You want one that just clips to ground. And preferably has adjustment so you can widen the gap (ie: can also test the strength of the spark, not just that you have some):
http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/autocraft-ignition-tester-ac664/10051080-P

Additional Thought: I feel like this was a pretty good post. I really took my time with her.

DisscoStu9
08-06-2014, 08:53 AM
Haha, all your posts have been preeetty damn petfect, no worries there. More worried about the buddy role, you all saw my first video with 10 seconds between me saying go, and him cranking ha, but between that, or maybe 10 bucks, no problem. Im a comp engineer, I've been shocked sooo good in my past, lil bit of minor ptsd.


Would it be worth it to have him do the compression test before I do my tests? The only reason I ask is because I am going to have to wait till the shop closes if I'm going to have room to push the thing to check timing, so he has time to check it this afternoon if I want him to.

Or I could just go start working on my car myself earlier... in the parking lot of an open auto garage. Just sorta feels ridiculous, but hey maybe he would take pitty and lend a hand. Or be totally insulted and tell me to move my car out of his shop ha


One real question about checking timing, will I be able to get that view of the belt and camshaft by just talking off the clips I did before? Seems like ill be able to view it from the top, but not sideways so I could see those little marks and if they line up

SquishyPanda
08-06-2014, 09:13 AM
IIRC, once you get the two clips off the timing belt cover and unhook the coolant supply line that goes to the turbo from the clip on the front of the cover (I think the vacuum line for the DV runs alongside it) that top segment of the timing belt cover should lift right out so you can see the timing marks.

walky_talky20
08-06-2014, 09:26 AM
If you get a chance to check out the rest of Bamse's adventures on Youtube, I recommend you do it. They are hilarious. Season 3 has some really great camera work as well. English subtitles FTW.

Yes, there is benefit in getting the compression results. If you take the plugs out for him, he could check all 4 in less than 5 minutes. Or you could just borrow the tool from Autozone for free and check it yourself. While you have the plugs out is a good time to check the timing because it will roll easier for you. You don't need to roll it very far. 5 or 6 feet of movement is enough to get it done.

To look at the timing, you want to remove the upper belt cover completely. To do this, you pop out the 2 hoses that are clipped to the front, just push them forward toward the radiator (sometimes I push them up over the valve cover, up to you). Then wiggle the cover out. *Be careful* here. It is a plastic cover and if you break it, the pieces fall down into the timing belt area, and you have disassemble the car to get them out. Just be gentle, and you'll be fine. You sort of pull it up and to the left. Like 10 o'clock direction. Use a flashlight so you can see what you're doing. You're an engineer. You've totally got this. [up]

DisscoStu9
08-06-2014, 10:11 AM
Daaamn, advance had no compression testers to borrow now, so I dropped off the key at the zoo and told him to test it today, and either just do the plugs coil test also, or leave them out if I can get there to test spark first. Then later tonight ill get the timing checked when I go back there. Phew, hope he can't screw up a compression test.

Ps thanks for the advance advice, if they had the tool in stock, borrowing is a great deal
Pps thanks for the confidence, though all my engineering is far more...hypothetical, too small to see anything you're doing, really teaches you to respect that magical electricity

SquishyPanda
08-06-2014, 10:18 AM
"It's gonna take a couple of hours to get to the spark plugs. You know these German cars, all complicated and jammed in there." -your mechanic

walky_talky20
08-06-2014, 10:41 AM
^ I can't compete with this guy. Too funny. [;)]

DisscoStu9
08-06-2014, 11:37 AM
True lol...He did say that, but also that her could do the compression test easy, which means taking out plus? Makes me really wonder what is happening right now. He prob gave up, way to blow my little confidence in this guy squish :)

Either way, I'm going down there in a few hours to check timing, ill do whatever he didn't, except the compression, no tool, unless he lets me borrow it.

Is there a video out there already of someone unhooking the tubes to check timing? The shattered plastic thing has me sliiightly hesitant

SquishyPanda
08-06-2014, 12:07 PM
The hoses just lift out of the little clip. Even if the clip breaks it's on the outside of the timing cover so no big deal. The problem (which may or may not be a problem, depending on the condition of your timing covers) is the cover itself being brittle with age and heat. I wouldn't worry about it too much, though. Just be reasonably cautious when you are lifting the cover out and don't yank on it.

walky_talky20
08-06-2014, 12:08 PM
Skip to exactly 13:05 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-pif1SLX-Y) and watch through 13:35:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-pif1SLX-Y

BAM. That's 3 [somewhat] relevant videos on this page alone.

DisscoStu9
08-06-2014, 01:34 PM
thanks guys, I'm glad at least my issues are complaining a sweet little diy thanks to you guys! Squishy and walky could alllmost write a 1.8t for dummies book by now.
He just called, did the comp test, going down there now for results, and to check the rest, wish me luck

DisscoStu9
08-06-2014, 01:57 PM
Update, not good, compression test came out about 50, 75, 66, 50. He said it changed a little, he ran it twice, but yeah...bad. the plugs are bad, so still out, I'm gonna check the timing anyway. He said that I could grab new plugs, they might all seal better when I put it back together, but he's not super confident. He did recommend I put a lil tranny fluid on or around the plugs when I put them in...but yeah, I'm sad

Might not actually have the tools to change the plugs myself, trying to borrow some, but I may just have to check the coils, check the timing, and buy the plugs for him to put back in, if you all think that's even necessary at this point

walky_talky20
08-06-2014, 02:59 PM
That test has pretty much confirmed that you do not have bent valves. It is possible the timing is off a little bit, or compression could be low due to normal "1.8T-non-running-ness". (This is a thing that sometimes happens. )

- Check Timing
- Check for Spark
- Somehow make sure you are getting fuel. (Listen for fuel pump, should be able to smell gas, old plugs should be wet upon removal, etc. )

If all of that is good:
- Install new NGK copper plugs (BKR6E). Should be $2 each. (NGK Stock Number 6962).
- Would be good to have a jump box, or jumper cables to a running car. You want it cranking as fast as possible.
- Push the accelerator pedal to the floor. Crank for 10 seconds. Wait 1 minute. Do it again.
- Now try to start as normal.

DisscoStu9
08-06-2014, 03:11 PM
I'm giving it a go, your sound more optimistic than him anyway.

Also, the website on advanced says those don't fit my car, 2000 atw 1.8t, I bought em anyway, figure you guys know better than them

MetalMan
08-06-2014, 03:25 PM
Those plugs will physically fit. They're probably listed as incompatible because they are a copper plug, whereas the stock plugs are iridium/platinum (?). Copper plugs have a much shorter life than iridium and platinum, but they're like $2 each and perform very well.

DisscoStu9
08-06-2014, 03:32 PM
That's def the reason, I had to go back to grab another thing and we measured the recommended ones against those, exactly the same basically.

DisscoStu9
08-06-2014, 05:40 PM
Checked the coils, borrowed that same tool in the video from advance, got a spark on all 4, but not a steady blue ark, just quick yellow sparks, not sure if this matters. Although obviously I'm doing this without starting the car, just quick cranks with only one coil plugged in, the rest on a towel next to me

DisscoStu9
08-06-2014, 07:09 PM
Ok, phew, done. Changed the plugs, coils looked like what I said above, put it all back together. Did like you said, gas down, battery charger on, cracked 10s, waited, cranked another 10, it started to slowly rumble, and did eventually start, I let it go fir like 5 seconds then cut it. Started normally like you said, took some rumbling, but started, I let it stay on for maybe a minute, sounded rough mostly normal, dropped to just under 1k rpm after 30 seconds like normal.

Now for the timing, I got it all lined up the cam shaft, then embarrassingly couldn't find the marks on the crack shaft =(, I'm honestly not sure which one of the ends of this pully it is, but inspected both and found no marks, I took pics of both ends while the camshaft was lined up.


Ill put up since pics in a few when they upload. Also sidenote, this brand new battery that he installed has acid leakage allllll over birth terminals, looks bad, don't know what he did putting it in...but damn

DisscoStu9
08-06-2014, 07:32 PM
http://postimg.org/image/b79cfvi8p/
http://postimg.org/image/4e8g6jgjj/
http://postimg.org/image/rm38s32hl/
http://postimg.org/image/qkedn67x9/

Thats the battery, and the different pullys, after the cam shaft was lined up, couldnt find marks on the crank, but here they are.

http://postimg.org/image/b79cfvi8p/
http://postimg.org/image/4e8g6jgjj/
http://postimg.org/image/rm38s32hl/
http://postimg.org/image/qkedn67x9/

walky_talky20
08-06-2014, 08:01 PM
got a spark on all 4, but not a steady blue ark, just quick yellow sparks, not sure if this matters. Although obviously I'm doing this without starting the car, just quick cranks with only one coil plugged in, the rest on a towel next to me

Nice job. I think you may have found at least part of your intermittent no-start issue. Spark should be strong and blue to white. Yellow/orange spark indicates that it's weak. You shouldn't expect it to be constant during cranking. It will only spark once or twice per revolution.

What gap did you have your tester set at? It should be able to jump 20kv minimum. And really ought to do 30 or 40kv too. I'm thinking your coils are original and weak. They crack internally which decreases their capability over time. Cold start requires good spark to get things going. Putting brand new plugs in is basically a crutch for weak coils.


Ok, phew, done. Changed the plugs, coils looked like what I said above, put it all back together. Did like you said, gas down, battery charger on, cracked 10s, waited, cranked another 10, it started to slowly rumble, and did eventually start, I let it go fir like 5 seconds then cut it. Started normally like you said, took some rumbling, but started, I let it stay on for maybe a minute, sounded rough mostly normal, dropped to just under 1k rpm after 30 seconds like normal.

Yay. It started! I'll bet if you warmed the engine up and checked the compression again, the numbers would be much better.



Your timing photos actually don't show the crank pulley. the crank pulley is the one *way* at the bottom. The front cover is plastic and has an arrow embossed on it. At TDC, the mark should line up pretty close to the arrow. This photo shows the pulley mark with yellow paint dabbed on it. The red is highlighting the arrow on the cover.

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e123/audimad/20130418_113330_zps1059b9de.jpg

SquishyPanda
08-06-2014, 08:24 PM
That one might genuinely be a bitch to get to. I think you can get a look at it if you pull the passenger-side lower grille insert, though (no tools needed for that one, either).

walky_talky20
08-06-2014, 08:31 PM
You just look at it with a flashlight. Should be easy to see.

But the car runs now, so this would just be a 'nice to know' thing. Now is the time to figure out what happened.

I think his intermittent no-start problems are related to weak coil packs. Compression may be a concern. Rings may be coked and stuck. Now that it's running, getting some new compression readings, cold and hot, would be nice.

The engine dying while driving is probably something else. Could be crank sensor.

OP: I suggest you get jo' self some VCDS action so you can check the codes like a boss. I'm hoping you find an intermittent P0322. Then just put a new crank sensor in it.

*Also, I just want to say - way to go for the OP. I mean, he's out there, blindly following our internet advice in the face of a seemingly useless mechanic and a car that doesn't want to run. And he's making it happen. Genuinely just getting in there, blazing that trail, learning new stuff. And now his car runs. For a lot of us on here, these tasks are nothing major. But for somebody who is not familiar, that is like somebody talking you through open heart surgery over the phone. Takes guts, and trust of some unknown persons on the other end. I just...[starts clapping] I'm really impressed is all.

(These aren't tears. I just got something in my eye. See it? There's something in there. I tell you.)

SquishyPanda
08-06-2014, 08:48 PM
We could have told him to check the advance on the distributor lol. And knowing his mechanic he'd start looking for it, too. What with these German cars having everything in weird places like the timing belt in the front of the engine and the spark plugs on top.

This is one of those times the Internet proves its worth. Doesn't offset the comments left on YouTube videos and any conversation that happens during a round of CoD, but it's a start [up]

DisscoStu9
08-06-2014, 10:07 PM
Thanks guys, didn't wanna sound lame before, but when it first turned on, I was pretty pumped that something happened, im obv into solving problems and building things, but cars just aren't my thing. Theeen I realized I did nothing but screw in some plugs and take off a few plastic covers. But hey it took me a few hours all told, and pushing the thing off the initial hill myself was a biiitch, so yeah good to get some result.

What does OP mean?

So tom ill see if I can find the right pully, must be way in there. What kind of code reader should I grab? Also is a compression test something i can manage if I find the tool?

Thanks again all, I never doubt the internet, comp engineer, this is def more my realm, I always trust boards like these, I've between in the other end of many. Smart people, group opinions, and trustworthy if no other reason but there is literally nothing to be gained by anyone on your end, so thanks again.

On a personal note, like squishy said there about my mechanic, the hilarious part about all of this is I'm doing it all for rhe first time, outside of a f$&#ing auto shop, after hours in the dark, with no tools...because he "can't".

lorge1989
08-07-2014, 05:10 AM
OP mean original poster, thats you. I also would like to say good job, sometimes its overwhelming to have all these directions given over the internet. Walky is a good guy, always helping people out.

You should not get a code reader. Get a VAGCOM cable off ebay and download the trial version of VDCS, or VDCS lite, I forget what its called. For a VW/Audi this is the only way to read codes, or only good way. Here's some more info on that. http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=224167

walky_talky20
08-07-2014, 06:04 AM
Yep. You definitely want VCDS (stands for Vag-Com Diagnostic System, made by Ross-Tech who is good people).

You need one of Yins Guys Here (http://www.ebay.com/itm/KKL-VAG-COM-409-1-OBD-2-II-USB-Diagnostic-Cable-Auto-Scan-Scanner-Tool-Interface-/310651623301?hash=item4854479785&item=310651623301&pt=Motors_Automotive_Tools&vxp=mtr). And then you need This Guy (http://www.ross-tech.com/vcds-lite/download/index.html).

Total cash outlay is less than 9 bucks. That's like...almost free. Then just liberate your roommate's girlfriend's old XP laptop, and you can "check codes like a boss". Keep this up and pretty soon your mechanic will be calling you to help with his VW/Audi problems!

DisscoStu9
08-07-2014, 06:44 AM
Gotcha, ill see if I can get one of those in the next few days. Or borrow one from advance in the mean time?

For now, should I grab new coils to make it start right? Or check comp again? Or can I...gasp...drive it?

DisscoStu9
08-07-2014, 08:25 AM
Thanks again

walky_talky20
08-07-2014, 08:50 AM
- VCDS is very specialized stuff. Will not be for sale locally anywhere. Internets are required to get some of that action.
- New Coils? That depends. What did you have your spark tester set at?
- You can test compression again if it's convenient for you to do. But it runs now. You can just drive it.

Avant Nate
08-07-2014, 09:40 AM
Yep. You definitely want VCDS (stands for Vag-Com Diagnostic System, made by Ross-Tech who is good people).

You need one of Yins Guys Here (http://www.ebay.com/itm/KKL-VAG-COM-409-1-OBD-2-II-USB-Diagnostic-Cable-Auto-Scan-Scanner-Tool-Interface-/310651623301?hash=item4854479785&item=310651623301&pt=Motors_Automotive_Tools&vxp=mtr). And then you need This Guy (http://www.ross-tech.com/vcds-lite/download/index.html).

Total cash outlay is less than 9 bucks. That's like...almost free. Then just liberate your roommate's girlfriend's old XP laptop, and you can "check codes like a boss". Keep this up and pretty soon your mechanic will be calling you to help with his VW/Audi problems!
No need for for old XP, vcds lite runs great on win 7. Vag-com 4.9, that needs XP.

DisscoStu9
08-07-2014, 11:38 AM
Cool, I was worried I was going to do damage driving it, also certainly didn't start smooth, so worried about getting stranded with it somewhere.

I had the ignition tester set to very small first, smaller than the plugs, and then slowly made it bigger, in 3 steps until it was almost a half inch. It was more consistent smaller, but either way never steady, just small yellow sparks. But also it was very consistent with each coil and each harness, which sorta makes me think it wasn't their fault, but again just new plugs got it to start, so who knows.

I can retest them tonight, because I did kind of want to take out the plugs again after a crank to see if they get wet (because I can't trust myself to tell the fuel pump is on by noise alone), if this is still a good idea of course. And also try to peak at the timing, correctly hopefully this time.

I might wait to test compression again till I get the rest done, just because it gets pricey. As for the boss vagcom situation, the cable might take a bit, but no worries on the software OS issues, finally something in my wheel house, and one you prob won't have to hold my hand through (yay) till it starts spitting info at me.

walky_talky20
08-07-2014, 03:20 PM
- It leaving you somewhere is a legitimate worry until you make sure it's reliable. You probably have 1 more part to change yet. Hopefully codes will help. Sometimes you just have to drive it until it breaks again so you can pin down what is wrong.
- 1/2" gap is about 20kilovolts to jump. That's adequate for running, but they should be able to do 3/4"+. Your tester probably has a 30kV setting marked.
- Your car is the only year of the 1.8T that got Japanese "Hitachi" coil packs (http://www.ecstuning.com/Search/SiteSearch/06b905115e/ES1551/). These are generally more reliable, but are on the weak side, even when new. Longevity is their claim to fame. The newer "Eldor" coils (http://www.ecstuning.com/Search/SiteSearch/06e905115e/ES281014/) are European (Italy or Turkey, usually) and are almost overkill: capable of very high output (even if they don't last quite as long). These are a popular upgrade and are actually cheaper than the Hitachi's.
- No need to test for wet plugs. The car runs. Fuel is definitely getting where it needs to go.
- Checking timing is a good idea.
- Checking compression is free. Just borrow the tool from Autozone

DisscoStu9
08-07-2014, 10:07 PM
Rock on, I put it back together tonight, drove 100 ft for the pure thriiiill, felt fairly normal, still a rough start, but getting better. I honestly couldn't get that damn plastic belt cover on, just gave up after a 12 hr work day, do it in the morn. Really curious to see how this bill looks at this place after battery install, comp test and...staring at it with confusion? Thanks again guys, let you know when I get codes.

walky_talky20
08-08-2014, 11:59 AM
Autozone installs batteries for free. It is a little bit of effort to put it in, so 1/2 hour labor would be fair. Compression test, 1/2 hour. Battery is probably $100+. So, assuming the labor is $100/hr, if your bill is anything over $250+tax I would be asking questions.

On the other hand, you worked on your car while it was at his shop. So he is within his rights to charge you some storage for that, so long as he has some sort of sign displayed. But unless he asked you to get it out of there, etc, that would be a little underhanded.

SquishyPanda
08-08-2014, 12:02 PM
It's gonna take a couple of hours to get the money out of the glove box. You know these German cars....

fR3ZNO
08-08-2014, 01:18 PM
The "these German cars..." jokes will never get old. Haha.

OP, don't you love that feeling of success when you fix something? Congrats on getting it working!

http://media.giphy.com/media/4wycNsucv3ofC/giphy.gif

walky_talky20
08-08-2014, 01:26 PM
I wish I could see the look on the mechanic's face when he heard the thing start up in his parking lot.

https://confessionsofabookgeek.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/tumblr_inline_mg4mbsjhfp1ry4qim.gif?w=620

DisscoStu9
08-08-2014, 03:02 PM
He might be bad "wit dese german" cars, but he's a very nice guy, no storage charge, 35 for batt install, 35, for comp test, 60 for a tow that ill get back from aaa, so 70 bucks basically, no problem. But yeah, he was fairly surprised. He was standing in the driveway as I left, I have him a nice smooth 1st to 2nd and wave. Cant really complain.

Thanks all, yeah feels real nice I won't lie, people have been congrating me all day because they knew I was stressed. Funny thing is I don't even know what to say I did really, guess just new plugs at the right gap was all it took.

I did have the coolant light flash at me then go right as I got home. I checked it and it's below min, so I need that for sure, not sure what kind you all recommend? Weird thing is I remember checking it a month ago about, and it was juust above min. Might have a leak? I'm watching it now to see, and going to look for some coolant locally first.

walky_talky20
08-08-2014, 03:12 PM
What you did:

- Tested for everything a car should have to start.
- Confirmed above were present.
- "Believed"

Plus a couple "tricks" from zee internets people, and then it started. Simple, really. ;)

And those are very fair prices from your mechanic. That's rare. I wouldn't write him off yet.

DisscoStu9
08-08-2014, 03:20 PM
Haha thanks man, lots o belief.

So I know I shouldn't mix our use another coolant but g12, or g13. This I can get locally but it says g12+, that kosher?http://m.advanceautoparts.com/mt/shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/pentosin-antifreeze-8114107/10024256-P?navigationPath=L1*14922%7CL2*15020%7CL3*15924

marlboro
08-08-2014, 03:24 PM
Put only proper G12 coolant.

SquishyPanda
08-08-2014, 03:29 PM
Haha thanks man, lots o belief.

So I know I shouldn't mix our use another coolant but g12, or g13. This I can get locally but it says g12+, that kosher?http://m.advanceautoparts.com/mt/shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/pentosin-antifreeze-8114107/10024256-P?navigationPath=L1*14922%7CL2*15020%7CL3*15924

That's the stuff I've got in there now. But it's cheaper by the gallon from the dealership.

DisscoStu9
08-08-2014, 03:50 PM
Yeah I figured as much, dealership so far away tho. I got advance and maybe walmart sells it? Also is that ok to mix with my stock stuff in there now?

My other question is I've heard you should add coolant with the engine on, does it matter?

walky_talky20
08-08-2014, 04:05 PM
- Pentofrost SF is the good stuff. You can put that in and mix with factory coolant, yes.
- You needn't add coolant with engine on. Just top it off with engine off and cold.

Mad Cow
08-08-2014, 04:14 PM
A few months ago I noticed some random chemical company began selling different manufacturer-spec coolants for like $20 a gallon, I've seen it in a bunch of different auto parts stores. Definitely not Pentosin quality but it should do its job just fine for probably half the price. If you can find that, buy a gallon of distilled water and you'll have enough coolant to keep your tank topped up for years.

DisscoStu9
08-09-2014, 07:19 AM
Pulled into advance, they didn't have the coolant, so I went to leave, and it won't start =(. Same as way before, not the angry noise, just won't catch and start. This is where before if I just crack it forever it might work, but I'm being gentle not trying to break anything else. Also have the batt charger on while trying to not kill my new battery


http://youtu.be/hywrcFI9w5w

Drifter420
08-09-2014, 07:59 AM
Hold the gas pedal to the floor wile cranking see if it will start

DisscoStu9
08-09-2014, 08:37 AM
Update, buddy was on the way to scoop me up for work, had stopped trying, as she pulled up I tried it one last fleeting time, started no problem.

Did the gas to one or two of the tries, the one that worked just went normal. Very strange

A1 A2 German
08-09-2014, 10:42 AM
I have a tip.

With out this I'd not always be able to start. Put a toggle on your fuel pump wire, or plug into your fuel pump fuse. If it doesn't start, kill the fuel pump, try starting again and fires right up! You'll have to flip the fuel pump toggle on once it starts. Also upgrade to the brand new revision coolant temp sensor which is dark green opposed to blue.

With out toggle, I could crank all day and not start.

DisscoStu9
08-09-2014, 11:53 AM
Interesting tip thanks, ill give it a shot. In terms of a long term fix, is it most likely the pump or the wiring/controller setup most likely. It's the random
Intermittent nature of this thing that is so confusing, and mechanics just think I'm hallucinating the problem

Everything I look at online with the same issue makes me think it's the fuel pump fuse, relay, or the pump itself. Ill try to check the fuse out asap

A1 A2 German
08-09-2014, 12:15 PM
Exactly like my set up...it's intermittent.

DisscoStu9
08-09-2014, 12:18 PM
Are you running the same model? I can't find the exact fuse box diagram for mine, 2000 1.8t atw, but I found one close, might all be the same.

A1 A2 German
08-09-2014, 12:43 PM
Pull the ~30amp blade fuse.

Now take a spade, plug into one side of fuse and run to a toggle (with inline blade fuse holder), run from other side of toggle to other side of blade fuse with another spade to complete the circuit. If no start, kill the pump via toggle till starts then flip on
.

DisscoStu9
08-09-2014, 02:41 PM
Did the same thing again later, when it finally does start it sounds like it barely catches, like cars sound really low on gas, then it's good to go once it starts till I turn it off again. My fuse box looks crazy, I could try that toggle method, but I'd rather just figure out what's broken and fix her up for good.
http://postimg.org/image/s0fx9bp8r/

A1 A2 German
08-09-2014, 03:38 PM
I havn't read the whole thread so if covered ignore.

If your coolant sensor is oem, 15+ years old, it's shot. Everyone here has gone through a few.....and get the oem replacement only, no exceptions. Audi has a recall on the ignition switch, which it turn, ~controls/primes the fuel pump. I have have a $300 battery, a Walbro pump, the revision sensor and no wiring hacks. There's simply just to much fuel if it doesn't catch off the bat 1st turn key first couple of seconds...just the way it is.....and the toggle is a great theft protection and should be in place anyways. That's acutally how I found out about the solution by accident. And my car does everything you mention...barley catches...seems out of gas...etc.
..

DisscoStu9
08-09-2014, 06:15 PM
Thanks AT, and welcome to the discostu is clueless thread =). Ive been told I should replace it, do you know if I link to the oem sensor or a part number? Don't want to get a cheap one by accident.

Also I'm interested in your fuse toggle, is there a diy write up somewhere, I'm just not exactly sure what the parts you mention are

demonmk2
08-09-2014, 06:26 PM
I'm late to the party but have you checked/cleaned all the grounds?

DisscoStu9
08-09-2014, 06:51 PM
Nope, haven't done anything electrically really. Where are the grounds located?

Also let me know if I should unhook the battery for any of this poking

Drifter420
08-10-2014, 05:43 AM
Holding the gas pedal to the floor wile it cranks cuts of fuel to the engine my car won't start if I put gas in it ( fill it up), it just cranks and cranks I can sit there for ten min and it won't start. Hold the gas pedal to floor and it will fire up within the a min of cranking and run ruff for 15 sec then it's
fine. I figured it was the gas but maybe I need to actually diagnose it

walky_talky20
08-10-2014, 07:39 AM
OP: What you described in post #100 is known as a "hot restart" problem. Assuming you weren't inside the parts store for, like...4 hours, the engine is still basically up to temp when he went to fire it back up.

1 thing that is very common to cause hot restart problems is a faulty engine speed sensor (aka 'crank sensor'). They LOVE to fail on restart, and then work fine again once they've cooled down for a bit. I would be very suspect of the ESS.

2nd thing would be coolant temp sensor. This is the way the engine determines what temperature it is, internally. This is how it decides whether to perform a hot restart (with little added enrichment) or a cold start (with lots o' gas). You can imagine if it the sensor reads cold, but it's actually hot, your engine will get a lot of gas it doesn't need. I would be very suspect of the coolant temp sensor.

In post #103, A1 A2 describes a switch he added to cut the fuel pump. This would serve to combat an overly rich hot restart. You can do the exact same thing by just holding the accelerator pedal to the floor while cranking starter. This is called "clear flood mode" and it cuts the injectors completely.

So how can we determine what we have here?
#1 Check the Codes! Audi's love to throw codes and tell you about everything. Very chatty buggers.
#2 If it fails to hot restart again. Don't keep cranking normally. As soon as you notice it isn't "firing right up" stop cranking. Put your foot the floor, then turn crank again. If that fixes it every time, change the CTS.*** In fact, change the CTS anyway. I would recommend you get a genuine Audi part for this:
http://www.ecstuning.com/Audi-B5_A4-Quattro-1.8T/Engine/Cooling/Temperature_Sensor/ES264174/

***This would be "indirectly" diagnosing the coolant temp sensor as faulty. You can also "directly" diagnose it by reading the exact values the sensor is giving the ECU and cluster (it actually sends 2 values). This requires VCDS.

DisscoStu9
08-10-2014, 05:28 PM
I will try this out next time for sure when it won't start, and people have been suggesting replace both of those sensors, certainly will very soon. I am still worried there is something else maybe electrically wrong, because I can tell you for sure it has given me this problem hot and cold, and with the gas down and not, all combinations by now, no consistent results. I'm going to get my multimeter in there real well soon or when it won't start on me again. Thanks Walt
Walky, code reader should be here soon too

walky_talky20
08-10-2014, 08:37 PM
Hmm. Engine Speed Sensor is not really common to cause problems hot and cold. Usually it will either be fine, have a hot start problem, or be completely junk. But, as I always say, "things can fail however they want to". They needn't follow any set rules. It is a failure, after all.

CTS, on the other hand can certainly cause both hot and cold start issues. Although it does not usually cause a car to stall while driving. Hopefully the codes will tell the story on this one. Or we can just start changing crap, but I always hate to go there.

The other part of that, is being as diagnostically un-invasive as possible. Basically, when you have an intermittent problem (especially one which can disable the car and leave persons stranded), you don't want to start changing everything at once, touching every system on the car.
1. You can create other problems (ie: you took out a good OEM sensor and replaced with a flaky chinese one. Now you have 2 intermittent problems)
2. You really want to positively identify the issue, and not just make it go dormant for 6 weeks before it strands you again.

DisscoStu9
08-14-2014, 08:17 AM
Update: all good for a few days, I pour a lil water tribute on the road from my bottle for walky and squish every successful trip, thanks guys

Wouldn't Start this morn, eventually did, ran for 1 second.then clicked itself off, again sounds sort of like when a car runs out of gas. Code reader should have been here today they said, but tracking says next week....grrr

DisscoStu9
08-15-2014, 05:25 PM
Further update: this might be the lightbulb moment, or maybe nothing, you be the judge.

everything feeling great today, put it over 5k rpm for the first time in forever, then suddenly started acted crazy again today, starting no problem, but not holding compression, turning off, etc. Popped the hood and noticed the huge pipe (found out was throttle body hose) was unconnected, and laying loose on the engine side. This obviously popped off under those rpms, certainly wasnt like that before. I'm assuming it was very very loose for who knows how long, I put it back on and screwed it tight, worked like a dream the rest of the way home.

No idea if this is related to my issues, but did in my head explain the out of gas feeling, cutting engine, possible compression and start issues. Probably not my whole issue, but this haaad to be related, def not helping anything. Will see if this seems to fix things from here on out, but wow... just wow

A1 A2 German
08-15-2014, 05:35 PM
It could of been that all along, you'll also get the hard start sputter sputter with a good sized vacuum leak.

#1 of these cars all day long to every problem to get outta the way:

Boost leak test.

-Sewer cap
-Brass fitting
-Air compressor @ 15psi

(Google Image: PVC boost leak tester : for those who have not seen one)

Turbo_B5
08-15-2014, 06:09 PM
I used http://www.a4mods.com/index.php?page=webcontent/pages/boostleak.html

SquishyPanda
08-15-2014, 06:55 PM
Man what a bitch if all of this was the result of a loose hose clamp.

audinutt
08-15-2014, 07:43 PM
Yeah and the mechanic who said it is not worth fixing is an idiot

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk 4

Jerstillman
08-15-2014, 08:01 PM
It could totally be just a massive vacuum leak. I can guarantee there is code p0171 system too lean bank 1, in the ecu.

Audis hate to try to run in speed density. With that throttle body hose off the car has no idea how much air it is getting because theres a leak past the mass air flow sensor. So the engine starts running poorly and dies.
Your check engine light is on or off?

DisscoStu9
08-16-2014, 01:38 AM
Not to be a pessimist, but it did start no problem...with the hose totally disconnected, prob wouldn't have started up if the only problem was suddenly much worse, just bent realistic. Only time and, that code reader getting here, will tell

walky_talky20
08-16-2014, 06:53 AM
Easy with the boost there, Captain. [;)]

I think the loose hose is a red herring. With the hose loose, usually it will start (because MAF is basically not consulted while starter motor is active), and then stall right after. If you keep trying repeatedly, you might foul the plugs or flood it out, though.

I once drove 2.5 hours to collect my mother and her broken A4 with a truck and trailer. From the "details" she gave over the phone we were convinced either the transmission was shot, or a CV joint had failed. Got all the way down there and intercooler hose had popped off. Tightened it and sent her on her way.

DisscoStu9
08-16-2014, 10:07 AM
I'm thinking red herring as well, but still a mini win, you can bet when I get back under there for a while tomorrow I'm checking evvvvery connection twice

Jerstillman
08-16-2014, 10:23 AM
Vcds???? Whens that coming

DisscoStu9
08-16-2014, 06:16 PM
Grrr...tell me about it. I got one from the us too, they must have screwed up shipping, tracking says Tuesday on mr vcds

DisscoStu9
08-24-2014, 08:31 PM
finally got the vcs action, bout time....

on shareware version for now obviously

first result:
VCDS-Lite Version: Release 1.2
Sunday, 24 August 2014, 23:21:33.


Chassis Type: 8D - Audi A4 B5
Scan: 01,02,03,08,15,16,17,25,35,37,45,55,56,57,67,75,76 ,77

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 08: Auto HVAC Labels: 8D0-820-043-1D.LBL
Controller: 8D0 820 043 P
Component: A4 KLIMAAUTOMAT D57
Coding: 00140
Shop #: WSC 06335
VCID: 2D2D8AB7F409
3 Faults Found:
00787 - Temperature Sensor in Fresh Air intake duct (G89)
30-10 - Open or Short to Plus - Intermittent
01274 - Shareware Version. To Decode all DTCs
41-10 - Please Register/Activate - Intermittent
01206 - Shareware Version. To Decode all DTCs
27-10 - Please Register/Activate - Intermittent

walky_talky20
08-24-2014, 08:46 PM
We only care about engine codes. Click "Select", then "Engine".

DisscoStu9
08-24-2014, 08:51 PM
Seems when I select any of the modules by themselves it says no response from controller, but seems to be hooked up ok

Jerstillman
08-24-2014, 08:55 PM
Could be your shareware software. Did you download it from rosstechs website

walky_talky20
08-24-2014, 09:06 PM
Interesting. Usually the HVAC module is the one that is the hardest to scan. The HVAC module seems the least lenient on the serial timing issues of the knock-off interfaces.

If I were tasked with scanning the engine codes, my next step would be to unplug the ABS module and try again. Then unplug the radio (if aftermarket) and try again.

But seeing as this is a new cable/install that has not been previously tested, I would check/adjust the serial timing before I started unplugging crap. Do what it says in this post, and see if that helps:
http://www.audiworld.com/forums/vag-com-discussion-51/auto-hvac-not-able-read-2585381/#post22374783

DisscoStu9
08-25-2014, 08:29 AM
Im going to do some serious diagnostic work on the cable tom, finally something in my wheelhouse. Does anyone know component wise the difference between the ebay and official cable? If there is a thread or wire diagram of the things somewhere I might be able to wire a work around, or fix it with software. We shall see, but if I can actually give a lil back to this community, all for it

Jerstillman
08-26-2014, 09:14 AM
Let us know what ends up happening

walky_talky20
08-26-2014, 09:40 AM
Stu, I think it has to do with it being a USB > Serial adapter and the timing issues that causes. Some modules deal better than others. I'm not saying this is your issue, but just something to check.

Long ago, the cables were all serial port cables. No USB conversion and no related issues. The official cables are actual USB devices. Not just a serial conversion.

Avant Nate
08-26-2014, 11:39 AM
The official cables have something in that identifies them and operates as your license. VCDS recognizes it and is fully licensed no matter what computer its used on. Ebay cables don't have that feature but will work, albeit not as well i think. I paid the license fee after making sure it worked so I had the full version and to support the VAG community. Mines blue with the silver cable.

A1 A2 German
09-03-2014, 12:52 PM
I hope you fully understand your legal Audizine obligation for a conclusion.

walky_talky20
09-03-2014, 01:05 PM
^lol.

But srsly, we will hunt you down.

Jerstillman
09-03-2014, 01:31 PM
^yuppp

Avant Nate
09-03-2014, 08:56 PM
Whenever you have a problem, you have to go through a million threads of people with similar problems that never update with the solution. Its really annoying.