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View Full Version : Clutch question: pull tranny or motor?



Rodgman15
07-29-2014, 07:44 AM
97 A4 TQM

Going to be doing my clutch this upcoming weekend, flywheel, pressure plate, and disc. Being that I don't have a lift and only jackstands, I'm assuming it'll be easier to pull the motor. My question is, is the throw out bearing replaceable with the tranny still in the vehicle? The pilot bearing will obviously be replaced on the motor side, but my biggest concern is the throw out bearing being inaccessible. Thanks in advance to anyone with any advice!

Sent from my HTC One

B5audiRS4
07-29-2014, 07:55 AM
should be ez to get to with motor out if its anything like my b5 s4 2.7tt

redline380
07-29-2014, 08:00 AM
Pull the motor for sure.

Rodgman15
07-29-2014, 08:03 AM
Fudge. I was all geared up to bench press my tranny back in ;).

Sent from my HTC One

MetalMan
07-29-2014, 08:13 AM
I've done B5 clutch replacement twice on jack stands, with the engine in. This last time I toyed with engine pull but ultimately decided against it, one big reason was that I didn't want to mess with power steering lines and bleeding, but also didn't want to pull the engine harness. Doesn't help that I didn't have a cherry picker lol.
If you get something like the Harbor Freight trans jack, it isn't too bad. Just gotta lift the car really high.

GrapeBandit
07-29-2014, 08:17 AM
I have to pull my trans. going to do ot tomorrow. still deciding if I want to pull th3 engine instead. dropping transmissions is my least favorite thing in the world.

Rodgman15
07-29-2014, 08:31 AM
It would be a no brainer if I had a lift, or even a true trans jack, but from what I can tell by the DIY articles I've read it's simply easier to pull the motor, even if it takes a bit longer. Now that you mention power steering lines... Ugh. I do need to replace my PS pump though so maybe that'd be a good thing to pull the motor.

I feel like lowering the motor in would be easier than lifting the tranny up and less risky in terms of getting everything lined up.

Sent from my HTC One

redline380
07-29-2014, 08:34 AM
This last time I toyed with engine pull but ultimately decided against it, one big reason was that I didn't want to mess with power steering lines and bleeding, but also didn't want to pull the engine harness.

Completely unnecessary to remove the PS pump. Just like the AC compressor, you just unbolt it and flop it to the side. Last time I pulled my engine I did the rack, and bleeding took about 5 seconds.

Rodgman15
07-29-2014, 08:36 AM
That's definitely good news. I ditched the AC months ago so I won't have any of that garbage to contend with.

Sent from my HTC One

walky_talky20
07-29-2014, 08:38 AM
- You don't have to mess with power steering bleeding. Just toss the pump off to the side without disconnecting the lines. Not a big deal at all.
- The thing you would worry about is the trans cooler lines, if it's auto-trans. Still not a huge deal, though.
- One BIG plus to pulling the engine is that you get free access to drop the pan and clean your oil pickup. This is the killer of 1.8T's, so I highly recommend you do it.
- Yes, you can replace the throwout bearing with the transmission in the car. You can even to the input shaft seal if you want.

redline380
07-29-2014, 08:41 AM
- One BIG plus to pulling the engine is that you get free access to drop the pan and clean your oil pickup. This is the killer of 1.8T's, so I highly recommend you do it.




http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-miSSIyFTo1A/UPSJkGAfccI/AAAAAAAAe5w/9lHOQ4zF0PQ/s1600/truth.jpg

Rodgman15
07-29-2014, 08:52 AM
Optimally I wanted to replace all that stuff (oil pickup tube and what not), but after spending near $1000 on my clutch setup, cleaning the pickup tube is my only option lol. I'm DEFINITELY going to be doing that along with replacing the PS pump (mine is toast).

In terms of cleaning the pickup tube, guessing a can of carb/brake cleaner will work just fine? Along with removing visible contaminants obviously.

Sent from my HTC One

nynoah
07-29-2014, 08:57 AM
Pull the engine and tranny as a unit. Much easier to deal with that way.

redline380
07-29-2014, 09:01 AM
Optimally I wanted to replace all that stuff (oil pickup tube and what not), but after spending near $1000 on my clutch setup, cleaning the pickup tube is my only option lol. I'm DEFINITELY going to be doing that along with replacing the PS pump (mine is toast).

In terms of cleaning the pickup tube, guessing a can of carb/brake cleaner will work just fine? Along with removing visible contaminants obviously.

Sent from my HTC One


A pickup tube is around $20, and I don't know how much the gasket is but it aint a ton. You can spend an extra $50 to do it right.

Pro tip- pick up a bottle of zip strip. Its nasty stuff, but literally melts sludge away.

MetalMan
07-29-2014, 09:02 AM
Sounds so simple haha. Didn't even think of pulling the PS pump like you do with the AC compressor! Still doesn't help if you don't have a source for borrowing a cherry picker and engine stand or have the space to store them (if you buy them).

redline380
07-29-2014, 09:04 AM
Sounds so simple haha. Didn't even think of pulling the PS pump like you do with the AC compressor! Still doesn't help if you don't have a source for borrowing a cherry picker and engine stand or have the space to store them (if you buy them).


For some reason I am in a pic-happy response mood this morning







http://i696.photobucket.com/albums/vv328/redline380/temporary-24.jpg
http://i696.photobucket.com/albums/vv328/redline380/temporary-23.jpg
http://i696.photobucket.com/albums/vv328/redline380/temporary-22.jpg

nynoah
07-29-2014, 09:04 AM
Don't be a cheap ass, buy a new pickup tube. If that thing clogs, your engine is toast. Your 50 dollar savings just cost you 2K or more. Cleaning it.... well unless you have real cleaning solvents at your disposal for FREE, it not worth the 30 dollar savings. The oil pickup tube is the Achilles heel of the 1.8t.

nynoah
07-29-2014, 09:06 AM
Sounds so simple haha. Didn't even think of pulling the PS pump like you do with the AC compressor! Still doesn't help if you don't have a source for borrowing a cherry picker and engine stand or have the space to store them (if you buy them).

Buy a used one of Craigslist. Then sell it for what you paid for it when done.

Rodgman15
07-29-2014, 09:14 AM
Don't be a cheap ass, buy a new pickup tube. If that thing clogs, your engine is toast. Your 50 dollar savings just cost you 2K or more. Cleaning it.... well unless you have real cleaning solvents at your disposal for FREE, it not worth the 30 dollar savings. The oil pickup tube is the Achilles heel of the 1.8t.

Lol i didn't realize it was that cheap.

No worries on being a cheap ass haha, I've got thousands in tools, and I'd have access to a hoist if my old man hadn't retired and sold his shop a year ago. At my work I have access to every chemical under the sun, there's nothing aircraft stripper can't remove :)

Sent from my HTC One

GrapeBandit
07-29-2014, 09:34 AM
real cleaning solvents such as diesel fuel can be found up the street for cheap. thats what I use in my parts cleaner. its a great degreaser

walky_talky20
07-29-2014, 09:45 AM
For the pickup screens: soak in carb cleaner, then light it on fire.

Replace with new works, too.

M-Hood
07-29-2014, 10:47 AM
It would be a no brainer if I had a lift, or even a true trans jack, but from what I can tell by the DIY articles I've read it's simply easier to pull the motor, even if it takes a bit longer. Now that you mention power steering lines... Ugh. I do need to replace my PS pump though so maybe that'd be a good thing to pull the motor.

I feel like lowering the motor in would be easier than lifting the tranny up and less risky in terms of getting everything lined up.

Sent from my HTC One

You don't need a trans jack if all your doing is a clutch/flywheel install. You can do the job with just a single floor jack to lower the transmission down and then back up, you just leave it on the jack pushed back while you are dealing with the clutch/flywheel. When you go to put it back in you just lift it up with the floor jack and slide it into place lifting it slightly from the back so you can turn it slightly and spinning the rear flange to line up the spline with the clutch spline. I have done it that way for years without any problems. It is just tougher if your swapping transmissions since at that point you have to pull the transmission out from car.

I don't have an exhaust on my car just a down pipe and it only takes me about 30 minutes to have my transmission complete down on the floor and that is with the car on jack stands and 1 floor jack. But then I have done it way too many times on my own A4. lol


Throw-out bearing is on the clutch fork which will be in plain site and accessible if you pull the transmission out or if you pull the motor out. You will see it once the transmission and motor are separated from each other.

BTW if you plan on pulling the pilot bearing make sure you have a slide hammer bearing puller, other wise it will be a huge PITA to get out. Also make sure you put the new pilot bearing in the right way seeing 1 side of the bearing has a slightly larger opening then the other, if you put it in backwards the input shaft can catch and drag on it causing shifting issues. The pilot bearing is one of those parts that should only be replaced if it is bad, no point in replacing if it is perfectly fine which is why most clutch kits don't come with one.

GrapeBandit
07-29-2014, 10:55 AM
^the best, easiest amd fastest way to remove pilot bearing is with bread...

M-Hood
07-29-2014, 11:19 AM
^the best, easiest amd fastest way to remove pilot bearing is with bread...

Haven't tried that, but then it only took me less then 1 minute to remove one with a slide hammer bearing puller and I didn't have to make a mess. lol

http://www.diseno-art.com/images_2/blind_bearing_puller.jpg


The pilot bearing goes in pretty tight, so it doesn't come out all that easy without some force.

GrapeBandit
07-29-2014, 11:26 AM
bread method is super quick too, and everyone has some in their house. no need to pay for a tool. I know it sounds weird and most ppl probably never heard of it, but it works like a charm

http://youtu.be/nkRmKWktW70

Rodgman15
07-29-2014, 11:28 AM
I think I'm going to pull the motor as opposed to the tranny, that way I can service the oil pickup tube. Does the oil pan have a gasket or is it just sealant? If so, RTV red?

Sent from my HTC One

redline380
07-29-2014, 11:28 AM
bread method is super quick too, and everyone has some in their house. no need to pay for a tool. I know it sounds weird and most ppl probably never heard of it, but it works like a charm

care to elaborate?

redline380
07-29-2014, 11:28 AM
I think I'm going to pull the motor as opposed to the tranny, that way I can service the oil pickup tube. Does the oil pan have a gasket or is it just sealant? If so, RTV red?

Sent from my HTC One

yes, aeb's have a gasket. and I think it uses sealant in certain places too, but not positive

GrapeBandit
07-29-2014, 11:31 AM
care to elaborate?

look at my above post, I added a video of it. the bread has nowhere to go when its hammer3d in, and it forces the pilot out

058 blocks get gaskets, 06a/06b sealant

redline380
07-29-2014, 11:36 AM
I don't think the bread method would work on a 1.8t. the race is so narrow it would hard for it to grab. I kinda want to try it though

M-Hood
07-29-2014, 11:39 AM
bread method is super quick too, and everyone has some in their house. no need to pay for a tool. I know it sounds weird and most ppl probably never heard of it, but it works like a charm


Ok but it not might not work on every car seeing it will depend on how wedged in that pilot bearing is. I tried doing it like that but using something other then bread it it would not budge which is why I ended up using a pilot bearing puller which I have used a few times already.


BTW the bearing in the video is pretty large while the one on the A4 is really small and has very little space behind since the hole in the crank is not very deep.

GrapeBandit
07-29-2014, 11:39 AM
I don't think the bread method would work on a 1.8t. the race is so narrow it would hard for it to grab. I kinda want to try it though

I have done it on my 1.8. do you think I just bable nonsense[confused]

redline380
07-29-2014, 11:44 AM
I have done it on my 1.8. do you think I just bable nonsense[confused]

No, but that's impressive. I'm totally trying it next time. last time I had a hard time finding a slide hammer attachment that would fit inside the bearing nicely

and I forgot. not sure if your avatar picture was taken in person, but I got one in person last week [:D]

GrapeBandit
07-29-2014, 11:49 AM
No, but that's impressive. I'm totally trying it next time. last time I had a hard time finding a slide hammer attachment that would fit inside the bearing nicely

haha. i know it sounds asinine, but it really worked. ive done it twice on 1.8t pilot bearings. believe me, I was skeptical before I tried, and surprised after it actually worked..lol
I forgot what size socket I used, but I put the socket in backwards to have the most flat area facing the engine, put the extension inside, and hammer3d away

M-Hood
07-29-2014, 11:52 AM
I have done it on my 1.8. do you think I just bable nonsense[confused]

But was it that easy like in that video? Because it is working on surface area and pressure, the smaller the bearing surface area on the back means less pressure against it to push it out. The 1.8t pilot bearing has very little surface area since the body is so small.

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd290/jguidara1/1223001643.jpg

GrapeBandit
07-29-2014, 11:54 AM
^it was just as easy as it looks. like I said, I was surprised myself how well/easy it worked out

redline380
07-29-2014, 11:55 AM
But was it that easy like in that video? Because it is working on surface area and pressure, the smaller the bearing surface area on the back means less pressure against it to push it out. The 1.8t pilot bearing has very little surface area since the body is so small.

Think about that longer. Same force over smaller area equals greater pressure.

M-Hood
07-29-2014, 12:08 PM
Think about that longer. Same force over smaller area equals greater pressure.


Yes but only if pressure is still the same. I tried doing this with something other then bread and only thing it did was waste my time. lol

GrapeBandit
07-29-2014, 12:12 PM
Yes but only if pressure is still the same. I tried doing this with something other then bread and only thing it did was waste my time. lol

what did you use? grease? I know ppl have tri3d grease and failed. bread is thicker than water...lol

Seerlah
07-29-2014, 12:26 PM
I don't think the bread method would work on a 1.8t. the race is so narrow it would hard for it to grab. I kinda want to try it though

It works. Guy in the B6 section did it and they were making fun of him for it. Why? Because he wanted to save some money, I guess [confused]

RoadRage
07-29-2014, 12:56 PM
Which bread is the best? White, wheat, rye?

I'm thinking white wonder bread would be optimal.

GrapeBandit
07-29-2014, 01:00 PM
Which bread is the best? White, wheat, rye?

I'm thinking white wonder bread would be optimal.

not sure if serious lmao

RoadRage
07-29-2014, 01:02 PM
not sure if serious lmao

You never know.

GrapeBandit
07-29-2014, 01:04 PM
You never know.

well in that case, I suggest you do a density test on different breads and report back. HAA

MetalMan
07-29-2014, 01:14 PM
I made a tool and used the grease method, worked great for me. Hadn't been familiarized with the "bread method" lol.

redline380
07-29-2014, 01:17 PM
I'm willing to bet if a guy had an extra grease zerk and some various fittings, he could piece something together that fits the inside of the pilot bearing perfectly and just use a grease gun to pump the grease in. if done right, it would pop out very quickly

GrapeBandit
07-29-2014, 01:29 PM
I'm willing to bet if a guy had an extra grease zerk and some various fittings, he could piece something together that fits the inside of the pilot bearing perfectly and just use a grease gun to pump the grease in. if done right, it would pop out very quickly

but still, bread method would be a better/cheaper to work done ratio lol

redline380
07-29-2014, 01:34 PM
but still, bread method would be a better/cheaper to work done ratio lol


Plus lunch!

GrapeBandit
07-29-2014, 01:45 PM
Plus lunch!

or you can feed the birds at the park with the bread scraps after the pilot comes out. if thats your thing lol

walky_talky20
07-29-2014, 02:12 PM
"Just a man and his ducks"

http://img2.timeinc.net/people/i/2011/pets/news/110926/duck-1-440.jpg

http://timedotcom.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/ap8578609988161.jpg?w=1100

Rodgman15
07-29-2014, 06:13 PM
Well, the bread method it is, unless someone local has one I can round up. Not entirely sure of the service history so every part replaced only adds to piece of mind. I appreciate all the input that everyone here has provided!

Sent from my HTC One

BaseDrifter
12-04-2014, 03:02 PM
Just wanted to follow up on this thread and confirm that the bread method will work on the 1.8T, though Grapebandit already knows that, I saw his pics in another thread.

I used a 9/16" rod to do the pounding. First I tried grease but that didn't work as it just squeezed out from the gap between the rod and bearing. The bread worked wonders though. Shoved some inside, gave it a couple whacks with a small sledgehammer and it popped out halfway. Shoved a few more pieces of bread in and it came right out.

Bearing halfway out.

http://i346.photobucket.com/albums/p439/blkA4alb-3/Chris%20B5/DSC07901_zps68758e8b.jpg (http://s346.photobucket.com/user/blkA4alb-3/media/Chris%20B5/DSC07901_zps68758e8b.jpg.html)

Bearing out, crankshaft stuffed with bread.

http://i346.photobucket.com/albums/p439/blkA4alb-3/Chris%20B5/DSC07903_zps1d4c49af.jpg (http://s346.photobucket.com/user/blkA4alb-3/media/Chris%20B5/DSC07903_zps1d4c49af.jpg.html)

The truly disgusting looking mixture of grease and bread.

http://i346.photobucket.com/albums/p439/blkA4alb-3/Chris%20B5/DSC07905_zps78422b52.jpg (http://s346.photobucket.com/user/blkA4alb-3/media/Chris%20B5/DSC07905_zps78422b52.jpg.html)

Video of bread saving the day.

"Sweet."


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZkwQs-dqgQ

GrapeBandit
12-04-2014, 04:19 PM
Just wanted to follow up on this thread and confirm that the bread method will work on the 1.8T, though Grapebandit already knows that, I saw his pics in another thread.

I used a 9/16" rod to do the pounding. First I tried grease but that didn't work as it just squeezed out from the gap between the rod and bearing. The bread worked wonders though. Shoved some inside, gave it a couple whacks with a small sledgehammer and it popped out halfway. Shoved a few more pieces of bread in and it came right out.

Bearing halfway out.

http://i346.photobucket.com/albums/p439/blkA4alb-3/Chris%20B5/DSC07901_zps68758e8b.jpg (http://s346.photobucket.com/user/blkA4alb-3/media/Chris%20B5/DSC07901_zps68758e8b.jpg.html)

Bearing out, crankshaft stuffed with bread.

http://i346.photobucket.com/albums/p439/blkA4alb-3/Chris%20B5/DSC07903_zps1d4c49af.jpg (http://s346.photobucket.com/user/blkA4alb-3/media/Chris%20B5/DSC07903_zps1d4c49af.jpg.html)

The truly disgusting looking mixture of grease and bread.

http://i346.photobucket.com/albums/p439/blkA4alb-3/Chris%20B5/DSC07905_zps78422b52.jpg (http://s346.photobucket.com/user/blkA4alb-3/media/Chris%20B5/DSC07905_zps78422b52.jpg.html)

Video of bread saving the day.

"Sweet."


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZkwQs-dqgQ

I forgot about this thread. bread FTW[up]

redline380
12-04-2014, 05:02 PM
Totally doing this next time just because. I'll leave the puller on the shelf and run to the grocery store to pick up a loaf of bread and a pack of hot dogs. Some bread for the pilot bearing, some for the wieners. Delicious and functional. Talk about a hot date!

Rodgman15
12-04-2014, 06:33 PM
Lol I ended up using bread a few months ago on my Southbend install! If it works it works!

Doke
12-04-2014, 08:33 PM
I've never tried bread but I've used thick grease instead with a spare clutch alignment tool I had laying around. Also seems to work pretty well. I'm also surprised to see that pulling the motor is this popular, i did mine on jackstands and really didn't think it was that bad

Rodgman15
12-05-2014, 04:24 AM
My main reason behind pulling the motor was to service the oil pan and pickup tube, along with the clutch. To each their own.

B5nDisciple
12-05-2014, 08:14 AM
This thread is awesome guys thanks for all the good info.

I'm about to pull my motor in a couple of weeks to do the clutch amongst other things but want to make sure I have everything I need. Obviously clutch, flywheel, tob, pilot bearing, pickup tube w/gasket, gasket sealant, and bread (lol). Now I've heard debate about the input shaft seal regarding replacing it or not since it can be tricky for it to seal properly. What are some tips you guys have for that seal specifically? And are there other seals that your would recommend changing at the same time? Driveshaft flange seal?

This is my first time pulling the motor/trans on this car so want to make sure I have all my bases covered. I have a friend with a lift which will make things a little bit easier. I'll be installing the F21 and manifold at the same time too. Also would the F.A.G. pilot bearing be good to go with?

GrapeBandit
12-05-2014, 09:06 AM
This thread is awesome guys thanks for all the good info.

I'm about to pull my motor in a couple of weeks to do the clutch amongst other things but want to make sure I have everything I need. Obviously clutch, flywheel, tob, pilot bearing, pickup tube w/gasket, gasket sealant, and bread (lol). Now I've heard debate about the input shaft seal regarding replacing it or not since it can be tricky for it to seal properly. What are some tips you guys have for that seal specifically? And are there other seals that your would recommend changing at the same time? Driveshaft flange seal?

This is my first time pulling the motor/trans on this car so want to make sure I have all my bases covered. I have a friend with a lift which will make things a little bit easier. I'll be installing the F21 and manifold at the same time too. Also would the F.A.G. pilot bearing be good to go with?
i had done quite a few clutch jobs on b5's, and i have to admit, i never changed any of the input shaft seals, never had an issue with not changing them either

B5nDisciple
12-05-2014, 09:17 AM
i had done quite a few clutch jobs on b5's, and i have to admit, i never changed any of the input shaft seals, never had an issue with not changing them either

Okay cool thanks. I don't think it's leaking either. I seem to have a very slow transmission fluid leak though. I will just see a very small bit in my garage after removing the car. Not even enough to puddle though, just spots of it that drip off the bottom of the case. My car only has 84K miles on it also.