Epl b8 s4 stage 2 review

[saxon]

Figured I would post up a review since I now have over 5000 miles on the tune

I will be as honest as I can be about this review so that the community can form their own opinion and see what options are out there for the b8 (currently not available for the b8.5 yet.....)

I first bought the tune over three months ago and had shipped the ecu up to Tony in Connecticut. I sent it on Monday overnight and received it back Wednesday morning. According to Tony this will change very soon to be able to port flash, he is just finishing up the details of security.

While waiting for the ecu I installed the srm pulley. Since then I have changed to the apr pulley because the srm pulley started getting surface RUST. The apr pulley didn't change anything Mechanically.

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/06/14/aqe3yryq.jpg

I then went to the dyno at innovative motorworks and had before /after dyno runs. These were done on different days and different temperatures so I realize it's not perfect. The before is stock with injen intake and x pipe stock exhaust done in 50* temperature. The after is the same with a m510 wheels, the srm pulley and epl stage 2 flash in 70* temperature.

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/06/14/edevevug.jpg

Nearly 60whp on a Mustang dyno on 93oct

I then went to the track to get a before /after. The before time is from numidia Raceway in the same configuration as the before dyno. The after is at maple Grove Raceway with only changes being a m510 wheels (same tires) apr pulley and epl tune. (apr pulley had same performance as srm and was only changed due to cosmetics)

Before
Car 970
13.055 @105.48
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/06/14/amygare4.jpg

After
Car 800
[email protected]
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/06/14/6eda8ure.jpg


After logging the car I noticed I was getting about 15-16 psi and had heard of some people getting 17psi so I asked Tony to get a bit more aggressive in the quest to hit 11's on pump gas. I bought a cable from him and he sent me a revision which got rid of the boost being bled off (was only . 5/1psi)

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/06/14/vyvaraqu.jpg

Not only can I get a custom tune but I have the stock flash in my flashing file. That means at any point in time I can flash to 100% stock on my own without having to drive to a tuner. To me this is a huge advantage compared to other tunes especially with the td1.


Next step is meth injection remotely tuned specific to my car and set up :)

Please keep discussion relevant, for those wanting logs I will be posting those soon.

sent from my s4

[apexit1]

So the epl and the apr pulley are the exact same diameter?

[saxon]

So the epl and the apr pulley are the exact same diameter?

Identical

[raudiace4]

Nice. Nearly 60whp, almost identical to my stage 2 gains with the V1 GIAC software and pulley.

I have yet to dyno the V2 numbers.

Thanks for the review Saxon!

[will13k7]

pretty cool you can ask for a small adjustment to the tune, get a file, and re-flash it yourself. S4 is getting closer to DIY like lots of other cars have.

[SeaBassHWD]

You can flash yourself back to stock? can't wait for them to release the b8.5!

[SwankPeRFection]

When you can flash from stock to staged maps at home, call me. I'm also interested to know if the flash counter is reset via the EPL flasher as well. Let us know, but as I told you months ago, this solution is a step in the right direction. Can't wait until AMS lends a hand in the tune via their development partnership with EPL.

[saxon]

When you can flash from stock to staged maps at home, call me. I'm also interested to know if the flash counter is reset via the EPL flasher as well. Let us know, but as I told you months ago, this solution is a step in the right direction. Can't wait until AMS lends a hand in the tune via their development partnership with EPL.

I'm not sure about the flash counter, I will ask Tony. He can port flash right now but doesn't have the security in place to sell it yet without the worry of people/businesses stealing/hacking the tune.

[S4 00 2.7]

Thanks for the review and good to hear you like this.

I also thought this was good when home flashing was released about 2 years ago by them.

[stiinc]

When this comes to the b8.5 and can do this over port flashing I'm 100% in. There are many like me that cannot afford the downtime on our daily drivers, no to mention I am an 8 hour drive across a national border to do so. This makes it impossible to flash back to stock for a service visit, or to receive minor updates. I came from the subaru community so handheld flash and map updates were commonplace. Security will be the biggest concern for the tuners, open source tuning was the route a lot of guys went to after the ecu was cracked, cost was a 20$ Ebay vag com. Cobb tuning even released their tools for creating maps with their own flash loader with stage 1 and 2 maps to get you started....Those were the days ha ha.......

[SwankPeRFection]

I'm not sure about the flash counter, I will ask Tony. He can port flash right now but doesn't have the security in place to sell it yet without the worry of people/businesses stealing/hacking the tune.

Ask him if we could use our existing VAGCOM cables to do this also. I don't see why we couldn't unless some voltage regulation is required via his cable to throw the ECU into flash mode. On the Subarus the cables for logging and flashing were the same and the only requirement to flash was to short out the flash jumper for the ECU (another 2 pin connector). Not sure how Audi does it if it's even required with the new ECUs. It would be awesome if we could use either his cable or Ross' to flash. Would save people some money who don't need a cable as long as they have a legit Ross one and not an eBay one.

[saxon]

Ask him if we could use our existing VAGCOM cables to do this also. I don't see why we couldn't unless some voltage regulation is required via his cable to throw the ECU into flash mode. On the Subarus the cables for logging and flashing were the same and the only requirement to flash was to short out the flash jumper for the ECU (another 2 pin connector). Not sure how Audi does it if it's even required with the new ECUs. It would be awesome if we could use either his cable or Ross' to flash. Would save people some money who don't need a cable as long as they have a legit Ross one and not an eBay one.

Already asked, the Ross tech won't work. The cable I used is a mongoose cable which commonly sell for $300

[Auditude2.0T]

I love the access to self tune

[audistealth]

Nice honest review, thanks!

[SwankPeRFection]

Already asked, the Ross tech won't work. The cable I used is a mongoose cable which commonly sell for $300

I bet if EPL was willing to write some proper protocols for the right chipset in that Ross cable it would work. Would suck ass to have to buy two cables to do what one cable and two pieces of properly written software to do. But in the end, I'll not to complain too much if they have a truly self-flash capable option for this car which would be cheaper and more capable than what GIAC/APR/REVO has to offer right now. Some of these companies do have to think outside the box a bit when they do set on these missions though. It's nice to offer the software to do this to clients and open the market up a bit, but can't you do it in an intelligent manner and offer a dynamic solution to people? I mean, seriously... how hard is it to write drivers and interface protocols to work with either your cable or another "very popular" cable in the community? Charge for the software, cable, tunes all a la carte.

[drob23]

Saxon, assuming your car is out of warranty. If you ever get a chance, flash stock and have them TD1 scan your car when at the dealership. Shouldn't really matter right? Would be pretty impressive to know if the flash back to stock eludes Audi's detection algorithm. I know swank said it's just the flash count, but curious if there's something behind the scene.

Do you have to ship the ECU to re-flash the tune, or eventually be able to port flash at an EPL dealer?

[SwankPeRFection]

He'd have to ship back to get flashed back to a tune state. Eventually EPL has plans to allow that initial flash at user level, but as he said earlier... right now there's no security against reverse engineering the comm negotiation to see how the access works to allow the first flash.

[adbender]

Excellent review.

It's like the Cobb tune for BMW.

Great feature to be able to save your stock data and flash back any time.

[saxon]

Saxon, assuming your car is out of warranty. If you ever get a chance, flash stock and have them TD1 scan your car when at the dealership. Shouldn't really matter right? Would be pretty impressive to know if the flash back to stock eludes Audi's detection algorithm. I know swank said it's just the flash count, but curious if there's something behind the scene.

Do you have to ship the ECU to re-flash the tune, or eventually be able to port flash at an EPL dealer?

My car is still in "warranty" until March of next year or 15,000 miles.

As of now yes would need to be sent, but that should change shortly

Swank the coding isn't the problem, its the hardware that's able to communicate with the ecu

[evobeatsti]

On the two Drag slips I'm guessing you went from the 13.05 to the 12.3 but not sure, can you please clarify in original post?

[saxon]

On the two Drag slips I'm guessing you went from the 13.05 to the 12.3 but not sure, can you please clarify in original post?

Correct, edited original post with that information

Thanks

[SwankPeRFection]

On the two Drag slips I'm guessing you went from the 13.05 to the 12.3 but not sure, can you please clarify in original post?

All you had to so was look at the MPH to make sense of it. [;)]

[saxon]

Purchased a meth injection kit, will update with progress

[saxon]

forgot to post the video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Z8YfUuxEQ8

[KRracer]

Excellent review.

It's like the Cobb tune for BMW.

Great feature to be able to save your stock data and flash back any time.

Not sure what I am missing. If the ECU has to be sent back to EPL to have the actual stock file put back in it, how is that any different from GIAC or APR?

Also, it seems that you have to hook the ECU up to a laptop to change programs? Isn't that just like APR and GIAC, except they don't require a laptop?

Can someone clarify?

Edit: I see now, you can flash back to actual stock, but not back to the performance file after that. Almost there.

Cheers,

KR

[saxon]

Not sure what I am missing. If the ECU has to be sent back to EPL to have the actual stock file put back in it, how is that any different from GIAC or APR?

Also, it seems that you have to hook the ECU up to a laptop to change programs? Isn't that just like APR and GIAC, except they don't require a laptop?

Can someone clarify?

Cheers,

KR

the program can flash back to 100% stock with the cable, so no its not like apr/giac

you also can log the car and get revisions sent into your "folder" which would be a custom flash made for your car, again not something that can be done at home via apr or giac

apr and giac are both great tunes with many fast 1/4 times and happy customers, EPL however has the advantage of the flashing software and once you can flash through the obd port with epl (coming very soon) it will be a full tuning solution that can be done at home without removing the ecu

[KRracer]

Yes, I suppose that is the other thing missing: performance.

[>_<]

[saxon]

Yes, I suppose that is the other thing missing: performance.

[>_<]

last i knew 12.3 isnt exactly slow

must be all of these giac/apr cars are slow, plenty of apr s2 cars , and even some with 100oct ;)

2011/04/01 - 12.273 @ 115.71 MPH - 1.802 - 1,480 - DSG - APR S1 93 - 93 AKI - Fonzie - IHRA - Time Slip
2012/03/11 - 12.283 @ 113.00 MPH - 1.795 - - DSG - REVO S1 93 - AKI - Tribe - - Time Slip
2012/04/15 - 12.287 @ 113.25 MPH - 1.834 - - DSG - APR S2+ 100 - 100 AKI - rynurz23 - NHRA - Time Slip - Video
2011/11/19 - 12.359 @ 114.71 MPH - 1.863 - - - APR S2+ - - Deckdout2 - - Time Slip - Video Video
2012/10/12 - 12.362 @ 114.34 MPH - 1.869 - - DSG - Stasis - 93 AKI - tins5 - NHRA - Time Slip
2011/10/07 - 12.383 @ 112.63 MPH - 1.880 - - DSG - APR S2+ 100 - 100 AKI - Joneze93tsi - - Time Slip
2011/12/04 - 12.410 @ 112.88 MPH - 1.929 - - DSG - REVO S1 - 93 AKI - Auditude2.0T - NHRA - Time Slip - Video
2011/09/02 - 12.419 @ 110.85 MPH - 1.767 - -165 - DSG - APR S2+ 100 - 104 AKI - theKB - - Time Slip
2012/02/26 - 12.438 @ 111.27 MPH - 1.789 - -1,646 - DSG - APR S2+ 93 - 93 AKI - ilspazzanev - NHRA - Time Slip - video - Witness
2013/04/14 - 12.442 @ 111.94 MPH - 1.827 - -13 - DSG - Stasis - 93 AKI - Audisarecool - NHRA - Time Slip
2013/04/03 - 12.446 @ 113.56 MPH - 1.932 - - - Stasis - - Hawkpilot6060 - IHRA - Time Slip
2012/02/25 - 12.447 @ 113.68 MPH - 1.890 - - 6MT - APR S2+ 100 - 100 AKI - apexit1 - NHRA - Time Slip - Video

[boseephuss]

If you don't mind, can you give a ballpark of what this cost? I am assuming it was more affordable than GIAC or APR, and having quality competition is a great thing IMO.

[espo4442]

Nice review, I'm guessing innovative motor works in Carlisle?

[paulo6]

Excellent review.

It's like the Cobb tune for BMW.

Great feature to be able to save your stock data and flash back any time.

Can anybody tell me from a technical standpoint (or other) why no one has been able to make a device like Cobb access port for the S4 - until maybe now? (APR, GIAC, etc) It was a great tool for my 535xi that answers most peoples concerns with tuning their under warranty cars now. So I assume whoever does so with make a killing...I for one will jump on it.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[saxon]

Nice review, I'm guessing innovative motor works in Carlisle?

Yep


Can anybody tell me from a technical standpoint (or other) why no one has been able to make a device like Cobb access port for the S4 - until maybe now? (APR, GIAC, etc) It was a great tool for my 535xi that answers most peoples concerns with tuning their under warranty cars now. So I assume whoever does so with make a killing...I for one will jump on it.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Apr/giac/reno are all afraid of losing their ip to another tuner, so they only allow their "dealer" network to flash. It's the community that have had audi's for years now and allow it to remain this way . These old school owners feel that no one can tune a car as well as apr etc

So when a end user flashing software surfaces and it's from another tuner it must be inferior

[SwankPeRFection]

Can anybody tell me from a technical standpoint (or other) why no one has been able to make a device like Cobb access port for the S4 - until maybe now? (APR, GIAC, etc) It was a great tool for my 535xi that answers most peoples concerns with tuning their under warranty cars now. So I assume whoever does so with make a killing...I for one will jump on it.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That's just it. There is no technical standpoint, just a monopolizing market one. APR and GIAC is perfectly happy overcharging you for flashes and also pulleys that should cost no more than $100. As long as they can keep the market limited and take in all the money, they're happy. They've been doing it for years and everyone buys their bullshit antics and keeps paying them money because in the end, they have no other choice if they want a tune. That's what happens when just a couple of small companies sell what you want. No matter how much you'd want to spend your money somewhere else, you can't, because no one else sells the same solution. So, in the end, you end up buying from them because you can't do without and you just perpetuate the cycle.

[Tifosi]

So the epl and the apr pulley are the exact same diameter?


Identical

Interesting, IIRC EPL did the same years ago with the B5-S4 tune, they were using Autospeed MAF housing with their Stage 3 fueling kits. I guess there is no need to try and re-inventing the wheel for them when the others already did the work.

Anyone know if GIAC and REVO pulley are also identical to APR Pulley ?

[saxon]

Interesting, IIRC EPL did the same years ago with the B5-S4 tune, they were using Autospeed MAF housing with their Stage 3 fueling kits. I guess there is no need to try and re-invite the wheel for them when the others already did the work.

Anyone know if GIAC and REVO pulley are also identical to APR Pulley ?

Since it was an srm pulley and not epl......

Its just a pulley and not much for "innovation"

[SwankPeRFection]

Interesting, IIRC EPL did the same years ago with the B5-S4 tune, they were using Autospeed MAF housing with their Stage 3 fueling kits. I guess there is no need to try and re-invite the wheel for them when the others already did the work.

Anyone know if GIAC and REVO pulley are also identical to APR Pulley ?

Ya because it takes a ton of development to figure out you need a smaller pulley to make more boost. [rolleyes]

This is exactly what I mean. APR will tell you they charge a lot for their pulley because it's super special. Lol


Last time I needed a pulley custom made smaller for a supercharger some simple math gave me the diameter I need to give to the machinist to make it. All they did was take come CAD measurements on the old one, put in new values and I had a custom pulley. Went from 6 to 10 PSI and I didn't spend a ton on it. Price was around $100 or a bit more. Nothing magical or hard about making one.

[saxon]

Ya because it takes a ton of development to figure out you need a smaller pulley to make more boost. [rolleyes]

This is exactly what I mean. APR will tell you they charge a lot for their pulley because it's super special. Lol


Last time I needed a pulley custom made smaller for a supercharger some simple math gave me the diameter I need to give to the machinist to make it. All they did was take come CAD measurements on the old one, put in new values and I had a custom pulley. Went from 6 to 10 PSI and I didn't spend a ton on it. Price was around $100 or a bit more. Nothing magical or hard about making one.

Exactly, apr and giac charge for a stage upgrade, aka the extra time it took them to raise the boost and whatever was needed to handle it

[SwankPeRFection]

Exactly, apr and giac charge for a stage upgrade, aka the extra time it took them to raise the boost and whatever was needed to handle it

Exactly and dare I say it, I'm willing to bet that Audi has a complete range of boost and timing/fueling maps on the stock ECU to cover more area than the stock factory tune can do. And if this is true, then all these companies really need to do to unlock the power is just simply change the limits Audi has put in place for the bypass valve. In other words, if Audi has complete maps for full boost to redline with proper fueling/timing, etc. Then all you have to do is stop the ECU from opening the bypass valve on your Stage 1 map and the reliability of your flash comes from Audi's already developed work. Now for stage 2, Audi May or May not have areas in the maps built for the additional boost, however, all maps for fuel, timing, and temp correction curves can be extended exponentially based on their previous values to previous limits. In other words, if you had to, you could roughly guess what those maps should look like and then that would give you a rough base to start with,no from there it's just minor corrections depending on feedback from your test equipment/sensors during development.

[audistealth]

Can anybody tell me from a technical standpoint (or other) why no one has been able to make a device like Cobb access port for the S4 - until maybe now? (APR, GIAC, etc) It was a great tool for my 535xi that answers most peoples concerns with tuning their under warranty cars now. So I assume whoever does so with make a killing...I for one will jump on it.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Greed, and fanboys.

There's no reason, as the companies already claim their competition steals their tunes. It does cost a bit for others to enter the market, but then they have to gain share - made difficult by the aforementioned fanboys of existing options.

[paulo6]

Greed, and fanboys.

There's no reason, as the companies already claim their competition steals their tunes. It does cost a bit for others to enter the market, but then they have to gain share - made difficult by the aforementioned fanboys of existing options.

They will gain my attention with such a product with very little effort! (As long as the tune is back by some serious durability data etc)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[sigaddict]

tagging along

[Tifosi]

Ya because it takes a ton of development to figure out you need a smaller pulley to make more boost. [rolleyes]

This is exactly what I mean. APR will tell you they charge a lot for their pulley because it's super special. Lol


Last time I needed a pulley custom made smaller for a supercharger some simple math gave me the diameter I need to give to the machinist to make it. All they did was take come CAD measurements on the old one, put in new values and I had a custom pulley. Went from 6 to 10 PSI and I didn't spend a ton on it. Price was around $100 or a bit more. Nothing magical or hard about making one.

This has nothing to do with how much or how little one tuner charges for their tune. While it may not require a lot of R&D to know that you need a smaller pulley, it does however, require R&D to decide on what is the proper size pulley to use and on how does one plan on intergrading it with the overall tune/package correctly and safely.

[audistealth]

They will gain my attention with such a product with very little effort! (As long as the tune is back by some serious durability data etc)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Chicken and egg, new product and durability data. The best you'd likely get is an uncorrected dyno.

Maybe on the forum, a drag slip. Pie in the sky, logged data showing timing, boost, etc.

[SwankPeRFection]

This has nothing to do with how much or how little one tuner charges for their tune. While it may not require a lot of R&D to know that you need a smaller pulley, it does however, require R&D to decide on what is the proper size pulley to use and on how does one plan on intergrading it with the overall tune/package correctly and safely.

No it doesn't dude. All you have to do is look at a few compressor maps for the supercharger and decide what you want your maximum speed of the supercharger to be. Then you find that diameter value. It's not a trial and error thing and certainly not something that takes forever to figure out or is at all hard. Some of you buy into the propaganda from these tuners too much. You think it's all magic what they do and are willing to pay their exorbitant fees for something because you don't know any better. [rolleyes]


Also, you're a little bit limited on just how small you can go with the pulley, because of the snout of the supercharger getting in the way a bit if you go too small. That plays a factor too.

[NWS4Guy]

Exactly and dare I say it, I'm willing to bet that Audi has a complete range of boost and timing/fueling maps on the stock ECU to cover more area than the stock factory tune can do. And if this is true, then all these companies really need to do to unlock the power is just simply change the limits Audi has put in place for the bypass valve. In other words, if Audi has complete maps for full boost to redline with proper fueling/timing, etc. Then all you have to do is stop the ECU from opening the bypass valve on your Stage 1 map and the reliability of your flash comes from Audi's already developed work. Now for stage 2, Audi May or May not have areas in the maps built for the additional boost, however, all maps for fuel, timing, and temp correction curves can be extended exponentially based on their previous values to previous limits. In other words, if you had to, you could roughly guess what those maps should look like and then that would give you a rough base to start with,no from there it's just minor corrections depending on feedback from your test equipment/sensors during development.

Only they don't. The bypass will and does open sooner, or later, depending on air density, temp, humidity, and such - this will govern the boost to keep it never any higher than the ECU is setup for. Case in point, the stage 1 tune just keeps the bypass closed (unless there is an engine safety issue) so they can make more than the stock max of about 10.8psi. Since they use the bypass to dump boost, they have no need to make maps scaling all the way up to max boost without the bypass opened. Another thing I don't think many people understand is that the bypass is opening and closing ALL the time under all tunes. Unless you are driving with your foot on the floor 100% of the time, the bypass will open and close to differing degrees to provide a little, some, all, or zero boost determined by engine RPM, gear, engine load, accelerator position and other various measurements. Any tuner has to remap the ECU for all of these variables at any point the boost will be in excess of whatever the stock map allows. Not to say they rebuild every map, they very likely reuse the stock maps for everything under what stock boost levels demand, but there is certainly numerous other levels to take into account.

There isn't just stock boost maps on the one hand, and 100% boost on the other, there is every variable in between. In fact, factory has it easier, they never hit the max, so after a certain point, they know the extra boost will be dumped, so they only have to consider 10.8psi past a certain point on all the maps. Other tuners need to have maps for any level of boost (stage 1) between the 10.8psi factory cap, and whatever it might generate max under ideal conditions, let's call it 12.5psi. Consider that under poor conditions, the max could be only 11.5 (for example) so they also have to calibrate for this little boost at 100% throttle, as well as every other amount between this and the 10.8psi stock maps.


No it doesn't dude. All you have to do is look at a few compressor maps for the supercharger and decide what you want your maximum speed of the supercharger to be. Then you find that diameter value. It's not a trial and error thing and certainly not something that takes forever to figure out or is at all hard. Some of you buy into the propaganda from these tuners too much. You think it's all magic what they do and are willing to pay their exorbitant fees for something because you don't know any better. [rolleyes]


Also, you're a little bit limited on just how small you can go with the pulley, because of the snout of the supercharger getting in the way a bit if you go too small. That plays a factor too.

Just looking at the efficiency maps is understating things to make them seem simplistic. You have to consider the engine displacement size and compression ratio, since this is a positive displacement supercharger. The larger the engine, the less boost you can make on matter the efficiency rating, as it will eat the air faster than the supercharger can pump it out. Couple this with now not only having to recalibrate all over again for what I described above, but since now you are making more than what the maximum limit was with the stock pulley - you don't just have to remap ECU for the additional boost at the top end, but also at all ranges between idle and max.

[SwankPeRFection]

NW, you're not telling me anything I don't already know. However, and I can't speak for the S4 ECU, but all other ECUs who's maps I've looked at had factory maps which covered more than the range of RPM and boost the motor made in stock form. I don't know if they do this for safety reason because there is need for some overhead, but engines that redline at 7k had maps all the way to 8-10k depending on manufacturer. The fueling, timing, boost maps and correction values maps were all there. While there is a need to tailor them a bit when running higher boost than normal, please remember that the maps do have points on them for load vs rpm and the entire grid is available after you unlock the limits and let the engine cross the boundaries set by the factory.

Now, like I said, I can't tell you if this is true for the S4 ECUs, but considering 3 other manufacturers of cars (both FI and NA) have these expanded maps stock, I seriously doubt Audi doesn't. Of course we won't know unless someone shares the full dump of a factory tune so we can see the maps and full grid limits.

[NWS4Guy]

NW, you're not telling me anything I don't already know. However, and I can't speak for the S4 ECU, but all other ECUs who's maps I've looked at had factory maps which covered more than the range of RPM and boost the motor made in stock form. I don't know if they do this for safety reason because there is need for some overhead, but engines that redline at 7k had maps all the way to 8-10k depending on manufacturer. The fueling, timing, boost maps and correction values maps were all there. While there is a need to tailor them a bit when running higher boost than normal, please remember that the maps do have points on them for load vs rpm and the entire grid is available after you unlock the limits and let the engine cross the boundaries set by the factory.

Now, like I said, I can't tell you if this is true for the S4 ECUs, but considering 3 other manufacturers of cars (both FI and NA) have these expanded maps stock, I seriously doubt Audi doesn't. Of course we won't know unless someone shares the full dump of a factory tune so we can see the maps and full grid limits.

Then you admit you were understating how simple it would be. Understandably there is no way to know for certain what is there without someone showing what it looks like stock, but there is still work to do. Outside of this, there is also work to be done to prove what the weakest link is, how reliable the tune is with the added stress to component, as well as how drivable and usable the changes are to the everyday use of the vehicle.

[SwankPeRFection]

Then you admit you were understating how simple it would be. Understandably there is no way to know for certain what is there without someone showing what it looks like stock, but there is still work to do. Outside of this, there is also work to be done to prove what the weakest link is, how reliable the tune is with the added stress to component, as well as how drivable and usable the changes are to the everyday use of the vehicle.

I never said it was simple, but it's also not hard either. I've road tuned cars before with knock sensor and wideband feedback in all sorts of conditions. The base numbers are there for some applications. Slight modification may be necessary, but I'd wager it was harder for these tuners to crack the ECUs and extrapolate the maps than it was to made the necessary changes to them to allow for the added performance. What I said a few posts back I still stand by. A lot of this Audi tuning shit is still overpriced not because of difficulty but because of the monopoly this market has by its vendors.

[boseephuss]

Can you guys have it out on PM instead of hijacking the thread? lol [:p]

[SwankPeRFection]

Can you guys have it out on PM instead of hijacking the thread? lol [:p]

No because I have no room in my PM box due to the mods locking down my account with infractions for telling noobs like you to FO. [;)]


But seriously though. I was just going to say it NW responded again to drop it and net sax have his thread back.

[MNS4]

Niec to see someone else enjoying their EPL tune. Anxiously awaiting my pulley and stage 2 tune in MN. Thanks for posting results and actual numbers and being honest about conditions. Hpefully this thread gets back on track and Tony can chime in a little bit

[faus03]

I think someone asked previously what you paid for this tune and I didn't see an response. Can you speak to the price of this tune vs apr/giac/etc? Does EPL have a stage 2 or is their stage 1 comparable to the other guys stage 2?

[boseephuss]

He wouldn't divulge, just gave me the contact info for the fellas at EPL which is fair enough given they don't advertise and I think he got a special deal.

[drob23]

He wouldn't divulge, just gave me the contact info for the fellas at EPL which is fair enough given they don't advertise and I think he got a special deal.

I'm pretty sure he said it was on the order of 1k, ship EPL your ecu, source a pulley and install yourself...not sure if he bought the computer connector/software in addition.

[saxon]

I'm pretty sure he said it was on the order of 1k, ship EPL your ecu, source a pulley and install yourself...not sure if he bought the computer connector/software in addition.

I don't want to post a price because I know Tony is working on a release for our cars and the pricing will be different because their will be hardware included

I did purchase the cable seperate and paying extra for the meth tune.

The tune came with the flashing software, stock tune, stage 1 or 2 and a race gas tune

[Gkit19986]

How soon is the release ?? If it's invisible from td1? I will surely go that route regardless of price.

From a price stand point, it seems it's even more economical compared to GIAC,APR . My only concern would be customer service,ow reliable is EPL compared to the companies that are out there now?


I come from a heavily modded STI, so the features EPL provides are fairly similar to COBB which intrigues me.

[SwankPeRFection]

I don't want to post a price because I know Tony is working on a release for our cars and the pricing will be different because their will be hardware included

I did purchase the cable seperate and paying extra for the meth tune.

The tune came with the flashing software, stock tune, stage 1 or 2 and a race gas tune

Oh, I sure hope that hardware allows for initial self-flashing. If that tune is the same flavor that AMS is backing, I'm there twice as fast.

[Boris]

How soon is the release ?? If it's invisible from td1? I will surely go that route regardless of price.

From a price stand point, it seems it's even more economical compared to GIAC,APR . My only concern would be customer service,ow reliable is EPL compared to the companies that are out there now?


I come from a heavily modded STI, so the features EPL provides are fairly similar to COBB which intrigues me.


I bet it would be just as reliable as any of the others. imho , anyone with real knowledge correct me if im wrong, but all these guys are copying, or at least working off of each other with the exception of the original creator. It appears like APR was the one to do the leg work on this one though, as I think they were one of the first to have aftermarket software.

after that point, if you are another firm, why wouldnt you look at the competition's and then tweak it as you saw fit?

It would be interesting to know how much the different maps are really being changed between GIAC and APR.

EPL /tony iirc was always a little better , or claimed more on the power side, to obviously differentiate themselves from the standard 2. EPL is also much more open to customizing it seems too, but I havent dealt with them for years.

[SwankPeRFection]

There's about a billion different ways to approach modifying a stock tune to make more power. On the same platform, you'll see very similar approaches to unlocking the power. The bad tuners are the ones that blow up engines left and right. I like to think that if someone's been in the business for a long time, has worked with numerous high-dollar value cars and they've all made good reliable power, there's no reason why they can't work the same magic on our little pos 3.0T. An engine is an engine and while the logic that drives it has gotten fancier over the years, it still boils down to the basics. If anyone tells you otherwise, they're just trying to keep you dumb to the fact that it's not really as impossible as they make it out to be. This is why I don't ever trust IT folks that don't give full disclosure on everything they do. There should be nothing secret about what you do to fix something for a customer. You should give them full disclosure and help them understand what went wrong, how it got fixed and how to prevent it happening again. The same should hold true for car tuners as well. Anytime someone says "It's not that simple.", all that says to me is that they want to treat me like an idiot and don't think that I can understand something if it's explained properly. This is why I'm a stickler for details. You leave one thing out or you misrepresent it and your understanding can be thrown completely off.

[faus03]

I don't want to post a price because I know Tony is working on a release for our cars and the pricing will be different because their will be hardware included

I did purchase the cable seperate and paying extra for the meth tune.

The tune came with the flashing software, stock tune, stage 1 or 2 and a race gas tune

I can understand that. Should we be looking for a new post when he's ready to release this? Does he have a website or mailing list I can be apart of to get updates? Just don't want this to fall off my radar. Thanks :)

[saxon]

I can understand that. Should we be looking for a new post when he's ready to release this? Does he have a website or mailing list I can be apart of to get updates? Just don't want this to fall off my radar. Thanks :)

I'm sure he will make a post, I'm going up for a meth tune august 1st and will try to get updates

[RynoS4]

I love this! sorry if this has been covered.... do they offer for the b8.5s yet?

[ethphour]

Just curious why you chose EPL instead of proven tunes like GIAC or APR or even REVO? Was the initial cost lower?

[Hansel]

Tony @ EPL has some wicked tunes for porsche [:D]

[saxon]

Just curious why you chose EPL instead of proven tunes like GIAC or APR or even REVO? Was the initial cost lower?

I chose epl because of the convenience of flashing at home, and ability for custom tunes like e85 and meth tune I will be getting august 1st

[jayts]

I chose epl because of the convenience of flashing at home, and ability for custom tunes like e85 and meth tune I will be getting august 1st

Saxon pm me when you know more details, I hit you up on the audi fb page about the exhaust/wheels


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[saxon]

meth is installed and going up this friday. i will update with results before and after meth on the epl dyno and then redyno at IMW where all the other results are from

[sigaddict]

Sorry if you already answered this, do you know if the flash counter is reset with the EPL flash, apparently APR does this, and can you flash the true stock flash from home or just stock-like?

Sent from my Nexus 5

[jayts]

Does EPL do an e85 tune as well, i think I saw a giac dyno chart with it but I can't find any info, or maybe someone was running part e85 and 93 I'm not sure

[saxon]

Sorry if you already answered this, do you know if the flash counter is reset with the EPL flash, apparently APR does this, and can you flash the true stock flash from home or just stock-like?

Sent from my Nexus 5

It's the stock file and flashed so undetectable


Does EPL do an e85 tune as well, i think I saw a giac dyno chart with it but I can't find any info, or maybe someone was running part e85 and 93 I'm not sure

He was working on it last I knew, will find out more on Friday as there is a good chance I'm bringing up 5 gallons to see what we can do

[Jones2012s4]

Does EPL do an e85 tune as well, i think I saw a giac dyno chart with it but I can't find any info, or maybe someone was running part e85 and 93 I'm not sure

Impossible at current time without upgrading fuel system. Car will throw lean codes with any more than 50% e85 in the tank.



Can't wait to see results Saxon!

[mpopham]

It's the stock file and flashed so undetectable



He was working on it last I knew, will find out more on Friday as there is a good chance I'm bringing up 5 gallons to see what we can do


While you're there can you ask them how the flash at home security is going. I emailed them a week and a half ago with some questions about their tune and haven't heard a thing back [headbang]

[mec]

kinda slimy that the EPL pulley is identical to the APR one. I guess thats the industry though. no one does their own research. APR makes it and everyone else copies it. Call it "reverse engineering" but it still shows a lack of independent research.

[audistealth]

kinda slimy that the EPL pulley is identical to the APR one. I guess thats the industry though. no one does their own research. APR makes it and everyone else copies it. Call it "reverse engineering" but it still shows a lack of independent research.

It's a pulley. It's round. What did you want?

It's not like that CTS intake.

Also, APR isn't always first to market and everyone copying off of them. DSG tune?

[saxon]

kinda slimy that the EPL pulley is identical to the APR one. I guess thats the industry though. no one does their own research. APR makes it and everyone else copies it. Call it "reverse engineering" but it still shows a lack of independent research.

Epl doesn't even make a pulley lol......

[jayts]

Impossible at current time without upgrading fuel system. Car will throw lean codes with any more than 50% e85 in the tank.



Can't wait to see results Saxon!

What you say makes sense, i think that people running the giac 100 tune are using less than 50% e85 and the rest 93, but I can't find the posts and figured Saxon might know if EPL is doing something similar

[saxon]

What you say makes sense, i think that people running the giac 100 tune are using less than 50% e85 and the rest 93, but I can't find the posts and figured Saxon might know if EPL is doing something similar

The problem with giac is that the tune is not meant for e85, I'm guessing the fueling is close to capable but trying to run it on a 100 Oct tune requires more fuel than the ecu can "adapt to"

Guess we will see on friday

[westwest888]

I then went to the dyno at innovative motorworks and had before /after dyno runs. These were done on different days and different temperatures so I realize it's not perfect. The before is stock with injen intake and x pipe stock exhaust done in 50* temperature. The after is the same with a m510 wheels, the srm pulley and epl stage 2 flash in 70* temperature.

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/06/14/edevevug.jpg

Nearly 60whp on a Mustang dyno on 93oct


I think you proved an important point today. Mustang dynos are extremely well calibrated and consistent across different locations. This is exactly in line with what everyone in California saw this weekend. In another thread I got 350 on a Mustang with my pulley tuned car and a similar amount of extra work in the car. My torque averaged slightly higher only because yours fell off at higher RPM. Not sure if that is a DSG thing (to save the tranny) or related to the way they operated it. Have you had DSG software installed?

Congrats, this looks like a very fast car.

[westwest888]

That's just it. There is no technical standpoint, just a monopolizing market one. APR and GIAC is perfectly happy overcharging you for flashes and also pulleys that should cost no more than $100. As long as they can keep the market limited and take in all the money, they're happy. They've been doing it for years and everyone buys their bullshit antics and keeps paying them money because in the end, they have no other choice if they want a tune. That's what happens when just a couple of small companies sell what you want. No matter how much you'd want to spend your money somewhere else, you can't, because no one else sells the same solution. So, in the end, you end up buying from them because you can't do without and you just perpetuate the cycle.

Swank, just drop it man. Nobody sells software for the marginal cost of making another copy. Efficient markets will eventually push the price to zero, but the 3 companies who did all of the work to tune these cars and support the early adopters are going to recoup their R&D costs. You are the voice of downward price pressure and it looks like Revo is listening. They dropped their price to about $800 and crossed the important $1000 psychological threshold. Have you taken the bait? Or are you trolling to the core?

[Jones2012s4]

The problem with giac is that the tune is not meant for e85, I'm guessing the fueling is close to capable but trying to run it on a 100 Oct tune requires more fuel than the ecu can "adapt to"

Guess we will see on friday

It's not, the injectors and pump cannot flow enough e85 for a 500 crank horsepower application. Plain and simple. Doesn't matter what the tuner tries to do, without upgrading injectors and or the pump it just cannot be done properly.

The ECU automatically adjusts flow based on the requested AFR, well, STOICH for e85 is 9.76 approx. This is compared to 14.1 for regular gas. The amount of fuel required to hit that number is quite a bit more than typical pump gas. This is why large injectors, 1600cc or larger are required for 450-750 hp applications to properly feed the engine.

If our ECU throws a lean code on 50/50 mix imagine how lean the motor would run if you put 100% e85, not my cup of tea!



All that said, there could be a possibility I have underestimated and or missed some key variable and it could still be done. If so, that would be GREAT!

[steve0827]

Good thing SRM makes an HPFP then I guess

[saxon]

It's not, the injectors and pump cannot flow enough e85 for a 500 crank horsepower application. Plain and simple. Doesn't matter what the tuner tries to do, without upgrading injectors and or the pump it just cannot be done properly.

The ECU automatically adjusts flow based on the requested AFR, well, STOICH for e85 is 9.76 approx. This is compared to 14.1 for regular gas. The amount of fuel required to hit that number is quite a bit more than typical pump gas. This is why large injectors, 1600cc or larger are required for 450-750 hp applications to properly feed the engine.

If our ECU throws a lean code on 50/50 mix imagine how lean the motor would run if you put 100% e85, not my cup of tea!



All that said, there could be a possibility I have underestimated and or missed some key variable and it could still be done. If so, that would be GREAT!

Good explanation, I'm very familiar with e85 and the demands of puts on the fueling system.

So your saying apr doesn't make 600 hp on race gas ;) on stock pump

[Auditude2.0T]

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/08/01/usy4ameb.jpg

[saxon]

..... updates soon with meth tune

Thanks for stalking me...

[steve0827]

Last I knew I invited your ass to the track and you bitched out

I live 20 minutes away, maybe we can do some pulls.

[sigaddict]

I really think Meth is going to be great on these cars even with a non-meth tune for those of us that live in hot areas.

Sent from my Nexus 5

[Auditude2.0T]

All I would like to do is meet at Englishtown or Atco- both are a hike for me but I would love to line up the different tunes and actually see an EPL car run in person.. No need to be rude, just stop making excuses and step up.

[saxon]

All I would like to do is meet at Englishtown or Atco- both are a hike for me but I would love to line up the different tunes and actually see an EPL car run in person.. No need to be rude, just stop making excuses and step up.

I'm not trying to be rude either but you keep making stabs...

I would be glad to meet at Cecil or maple grove as its hard for me to get to other places on a Friday test and tune

[infinkc]

I really think Meth is going to be great on these cars even with a non-meth tune for those of us that live in hot areas.

Sent from my Nexus 5

ive been running it now for 8 months, no issues, been about 4 months running it on a 93 map with 91 octane.

[RendyR]

Nice meeting you today Saxon :)

[saxon]

Nice meeting you today Saxon :)

nice meeting you as well beautiful car

[jayts]

ive been running it now for 8 months, no issues, been about 4 months running it on a 93 map with 91 octane.

How you like it, a small review?

[saxon]

I will have a complete write up soon, 30whp gains on a 50/50 blend and nice consistent power even in 90° heat

[jayts]

I will have a complete write up soon, 30whp gains on a 50/50 blend and nice consistent power even in 90° heat

Did you by any chance dyno before and after, curious to see torque changes

[saxon]

Did you by any chance dyno before and after, curious to see torque changes

i have the epl one, but i am trying to get onto the other dyno that i had the stock and standard stage 2 tune done on so its all relative.

hoping to have all that information this week and if i can make it to the drag strip in the next couple weeks

[jimrobbington]

i have the epl one, but i am trying to get onto the other dyno that i had the stock and standard stage 2 tune done on so its all relative.

hoping to have all that information this week and if i can make it to the drag strip in the next couple weeks
Guess not, huh?

[GRUMPY-S4]

My experience so far with Tony has been great. APR wanted double the money for stage 2!!!! GIAC was even more than that. Given the plan to go E85 down the line... And the great GB deal... EPL FTW!!!!


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