Need new clutch at 20k miles (bought CPO at 17,500!)...need some advice

[JJgriss]

Hi Guys,

Bought my 2012 S4 from Jack Daniels Audi in Paramus, NJ in February with 17,500 miles, fully CPO. I now have 20k miles. About a week ago on the highway going about 65, I downshifted into 3rd to pass, and the rpm's continued to climb but I did not accelerate...I assumed this was clutch slip. In normal driving conditions there is no issue whatsoever.

I live near an Audi dealership, closer than Jack Daniels, so I took it in, hopeful that any adjustments would be minor and/or covered under warranty. Well I was in for a shock. Need a new clutch and was quoted $4k. Now I explained the situation of me only owning the car for 2500 of those 20k miles, and they correctly advised me to bring the car back to where I bought it, so off I went.

I had a long conversation with several "management" folks at Jack Daniels, but the message was clear....the clutch is a wear and tear item and they will not cover the repair. I left the car there overnight, as they promised to evaluate it themselves today, and they think they can do better than the $4k estimate I had received, but no promises.

So clearly this is a sensitive issue. The dealership's position is that Yes it is possible that I destroyed the clutch in 2500 miles (I didn't, but this is the dealership view).

About me...35 years old, have ONLY driven manual cars (BMW 335i was the last one), never burned out a clutch in my life, and have a 2 mile commute to and from work, hence why I have only put 2500 miles on the car since owning it since February. I have never tracked the car, or launched it, just the occasional spirited driving on the highway.

MY options as I see them right now:

1. Wait and see what Jack Daniels says today, and hope they at least split the costs with me given the lack of miles I have put on the car since buying from them CPO
2. Call some independent shops to get quotes
3. Call AoA and complain -- should I do this after JAck Daniels calls me back? not sure.


Thanks for any inputs or anything I am not thinking about. Sorry about the long post.

-Jeff

[sacandagaD]

Hi Guys,

Bought my 2012 S4 from Jack Daniels Audi in Paramus, NJ in February with 17,500 miles, fully CPO. I now have 20k miles. About a week ago on the highway going about 65, I downshifted into 3rd to pass, and the rpm's continued to climb but I did not accelerate...I assumed this was clutch slip. In normal driving conditions there is no issue whatsoever.

I live near an Audi dealership, closer than Jack Daniels, so I took it in, hopeful that any adjustments would be minor and/or covered under warranty. Well I was in for a shock. Need a new clutch and was quoted $4k. Now I explained the situation of me only owning the car for 2500 of those 20k miles, and they correctly advised me to bring the car back to where I bought it, so off I went.

I had a long conversation with several "management" folks at Jack Daniels, but the message was clear....the clutch is a wear and tear item and they will not cover the repair. I left the car there overnight, as they promised to evaluate it themselves today, and they think they can do better than the $4k estimate I had received, but no promises.

So clearly this is a sensitive issue. The dealership's position is that Yes it is possible that I destroyed the clutch in 2500 miles (I didn't, but this is the dealership view).

About me...35 years old, have ONLY driven manual cars (BMW 335i was the last one), never burned out a clutch in my life, and have a 2 mile commute to and from work, hence why I have only put 2500 miles on the car since owning it since February. I have never tracked the car, or launched it, just the occasional spirited driving on the highway.

MY options as I see them right now:

1. Wait and see what Jack Daniels says today, and hope they at least split the costs with me given the lack of miles I have put on the car since buying from them CPO
2. Call some independent shops to get quotes
3. Call AoA and complain -- should I do this after JAck Daniels calls me back? not sure.


Thanks for any inputs or anything I am not thinking about. Sorry about the long post.

-Jeff

That really sucks. Can they explain in detail the clutch inspection protocol for a CPO certification and can you speak to the tech that certified the car? The dealer probably didn't even look at it.

[B8 S4]

Thats too bad hope everything works out for you... I would hate to see what the car went through before you owned it.

[JJgriss]

That really sucks. Can they explain in detail the clutch inspection protocol for a CPO certification and can you speak to the tech that certified the car? The dealer probably didn't even look at it.

i will inquire about the inspection protocol, but my fear is they inspect it by driving it around and as long as it shifts, it's "ok". But thanks for the suggestion.

[sacandagaD]

You would think that they would check one of the most important components of the car. Good luck, keep busting their balls until they scream!

[wsr1206]

Hey Jeff,
I would wait for JD's response first (even though they will probably tell you the same thing) and call AOA.
AOA can handle much better, but get ready to fight this thing if they say the same thing.
I would not pay for the clutch out of my pocket. Clutch can't go out that easy unless this was your first manual car.
Just fight for it.

[MrFunk]

That sucks man... really bad.

This is yet another reason why I stay away from the used car market... I hope they do you right...

[JJgriss]

Hey Jeff,
I would wait for JD's response first (even though they will probably tell you the same thing) and call AOA.
AOA can handle much better, but get ready to fight this thing if they say the same thing.
I would not pay for the clutch out of my pocket. Clutch can't go out that easy unless this was your first manual car.
Just fight for it.

Thanks man! Good to hear from you..its been a while!

[Auditude2.0T]

You bought a used stick shift car- you won't get anywhere fighting with a dealership or AoA. Don't waste your time.

I can have your stock flywheel resurfaced for like ~$100 and can get a JHM clutch disk for ~$1,000 and labor for ~$800.

Upgraded clutch that you'll never have a problem with installed for under $2k.

PM me.

[audistealth]

Double check your CPO paperwork and see if there was any implied wear and tear warranty for 90 days. Also see if you can find the checklist.

[Petrolhead]

22000 miles, first manual car and ive only driven a manual maybe twice before. clutch still works fine.

[emnahum]

Hey Jeff,
I would wait for JD's response first (even though they will probably tell you the same thing) and call AOA.
AOA can handle much better, but get ready to fight this thing if they say the same thing.
I would not pay for the clutch out of my pocket. Clutch can't go out that easy unless this was your first manual car.
Just fight for it.

Another vote for this. Bring in AoA if JD doesn't do right by you. 2500 miles on a CPO is ridiculous.

[SeaBassHWD]

Sucks to hear that. Maybe the original owner(s) drove it hard (might want to check with APR or GIAC if the car previously had a tune). If the dealer nor AoA cover it under warranty, might as well get an upgraded aftermarket clutch. I bet you'll spend $3k including labor.

[westwest888]

That sucks. The part is only like $800 and you can find a shop that will do the labor in 8 hours. It helps if they've done it before. Good luck.

Sent from Sony Android by Google Play

[mact3333]

To be a CPO car there is alike a 300 point checklist the techs have to do...I would bet looking at the clutch is one of them...if it is, then you might have some legal recourse...if its not in the 300 point inspection you are shit out of luck...then go to indy shop or maybe the dealer will feel guilty and do it really cheap...my car is cpo and I actually got the paperwork with the list of all the things they checked to allow the car to be cpo.

[schirm]

To be a CPO car there is alike a 300 point checklist the techs have to do...I would bet looking at the clutch is one of them...if it is, then you might have some legal recourse...if its not in the 300 point inspection you are shit out of luck...then go to indy shop or maybe the dealer will feel guilty and do it really cheap...my car is cpo and I actually got the paperwork with the list of all the things they checked to allow the car to be cpo.

So was the clutch part of your paperwork?

[mact3333]

Im at work...dont have paperwork in front of me now.

[SwankPeRFection]

I'd push to get it covered under warranty. If they end up not doing it, then find yourself a good aftermarket clutch and get that installed. No point in paying out of pocket for the OEM POS that'll just fail again because it's weak.

[MrFunk]

You bought a used stick shift car- you won't get anywhere fighting with a dealership or AoA. Don't waste your time.

I can have your stock flywheel resurfaced for like ~$100 and can get a JHM clutch disk for ~$1,000 and labor for ~$800.

Upgraded clutch that you'll never have a problem with installed for under $2k.

PM me.

I've got to agree with this...
Either drive it as long as you can before you need to replace it - you say it's fine in DD situations?
Then go with aftermarket for cheaper.

[JJgriss]

thanks for all of the input guys...still waiting for Jack Daniels Audi to call me back with final diagnosis and whether or not they will cover all/some of the cost. Depending on their stance, I will call AoA immediately following this information. I have requested the 300 point checklist that they reviewed when they CPO'd it...to no one's surprise, I am still waiting to hear back.

[MrFunk]

So was the clutch part of your paperwork?

Doubt it. How could they inspect the clutch in a 300 point checklist inspection which takes them probably 40 minutes?! You can't just look under the car and see the condition of the clutch. And what would they say "yup clutch has 20% wear... pass"? It's not like brakes that you can look right at and see how much pad is left...

[schirm]

Doubt it. How could they inspect the clutch in a 300 point checklist inspection which takes them probably 40 minutes?! You can't just look under the car and see the condition of the clutch. And what would they say "yup clutch has 20% wear... pass"? It's not like brakes that you can look right at and see how much pad is left...

Yeah I figured this, my post was being sarcastic. Because of the bold below from his post.

"To be a CPO car there is alike a 300 point checklist the techs have to do...I would bet looking at the clutch is one of them...if it is, then you might have some legal recourse...if its not in the 300 point inspection you are shit out of luck...then go to indy shop or maybe the dealer will feel guilty and do it really cheap...my car is cpo and I actually got the paperwork with the list of all the things they checked to allow the car to be cpo."

[PitchS4]

The tires and brakes need to be at a certain measurement for it to be CPO but there isn't really anything they can check for a clutch. Trust me Audi is not doing an r/r on a trans just to approve a CPO. Good luck man keep us posted.

BTW I have the same watch you have good taste :)

[mact3333]

Haha trying to deflect the blame for being an idiot like me...[:D]

I don't know what you have to do to check for clutch wear...but I will still check my paperwork to see if they mention the clutch.



Yeah I figured this, my post was being sarcastic. Because of the bold below from his post.

"To be a CPO car there is alike a 300 point checklist the techs have to do...I would bet looking at the clutch is one of them...if it is, then you might have some legal recourse...if its not in the 300 point inspection you are shit out of luck...then go to indy shop or maybe the dealer will feel guilty and do it really cheap...my car is cpo and I actually got the paperwork with the list of all the things they checked to allow the car to be cpo."

[Intrepid One]

I agree with one of the previous posters..CPO inspect on a clutch???I'm just wondering what this would involve, I mean I have no skin in the game, but really don't see how that would happen without a major dismantle/inspect being done, which isn't going to happen..Good luck with all this..S

[S4charged]

I can tell you guys BMW doesn't check the clutch. Same thing happened to me when I bought a CPO 335i. I asked them, "Isn't checking the clutch part of the CPO?" They laughed and said, "Yes were going to pull the whole transmission just to check the clutch."

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

[RickFLS4]

Doubt it. How could they inspect the clutch in a 300 point checklist inspection which takes them probably 40 minutes?! You can't just look under the car and see the condition of the clutch. And what would they say "yup clutch has 20% wear... pass"? It's not like brakes that you can look right at and see how much pad is left...

40 minutes is probably generous credit for time actually spent with the clipboard if I had to guess.

Edit: I don't see anything about clutch in section 4.3. Section 5.1 has "clutch operation" but that may just mean "does it work" and not much else. I think it takes a lot of problems (or blatant modifications or title problems on CarFax) to fail a CPO inspection.

http://www.cars.com/go/advice/shopping/cpo/images/audi-inspection.pdf

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[Tweakophyte]

I would finesse a good-will repair out of this because the clutch is one of those notorious items not covered. I would not expect AoA to help either (though pursue if you need to). The fact is, dealers are douches when it comes to clutches.
Tell them you would not have paid $4K more for the car if you would have known this was coming.
Tell them you relied on their good name and their CPO process.
Be persistent and polite.

Remind them you are active on the web.

Good luck!

[mmm def]

IF you have to go out of pocket, don't have the dealer do it. Not sure where you live but give kmd up in saddle brook or redline speed worx in green brook a call. I have been pleased with both places.

[cyclezib]

call Danny at KMD Tuning. You can get a Southbend Stage three clutch and have him install it for much less than the Jack Daniels quote.

[Madbusy168]

and all you idiots are willing to pay $3000 extra for a "certified" car, nothing but a bullshit 40 min check that basically is the same as a state inspection. when a problem arises, what happens? fingers still gets pointed everywhere...

[esimp2k]

and all you idiots are willing to pay $3000 extra for a "certified" car, nothing but a bullshit 40 min check that basically is the same as a state inspection. when a problem arises, what happens? fingers still gets pointed everywhere...

On my third cpo'd s4. And I've had numerous repairs covered under cpo that otherwise wouldn't have been covered. Complete mt rebuild seat motors, window regulators etc. everyone's got an opinion. Oh and they total WAY more than the CPO extra price.

[SwankPeRFection]

and all you idiots are willing to pay $3000 extra for a "certified" car, nothing but a bullshit 40 min check that basically is the same as a state inspection. when a problem arises, what happens? fingers still gets pointed everywhere...

When the problems start, they cover it. The OP's problems is that this item is considered a wear item like the brakes and tires which aren't warrantied, but since those are viewable and inspected/replaced as part of the CPO process, you can't come back and complain you have bad brakes.

What the OP needs to do is take this up with the original dealer and ask them to cover the clutch because he believes they sold him a car with a worn clutch which they didn't properly CPO and are refusing to stand behind. They can either do it this one time and put the blame on the tech who should have test driven the car hard enough to make sure the clutch didn't slip as part of the CPO process but didn't. Either that or he'll call his lawyer. They can pick one of the two.... simple as that.

[MrFunk]

and all you idiots are willing to pay $3000 extra for a "certified" car, nothing but a bullshit 40 min check that basically is the same as a state inspection. when a problem arises, what happens? fingers still gets pointed everywhere...

Wow man... really?! Idiots? You'd think someone who buys an Audi would have more class.

[RickFLS4]

and all you idiots are willing to pay $3000 extra for a "certified" car, nothing but a bullshit 40 min check that basically is the same as a state inspection. when a problem arises, what happens? fingers still gets pointed everywhere...

I am far from a fan of CPO programs but agree with others this assessment goes too far. The certification / inspection process should not be the reason someone buys a CPO car, but there is more to it than just that... there is an extended warranty. I think 100% of the CPO value is on the warranty and 0% is in the inspection. If you want an inspection independent of the seller, it would be best to pay an independent party (or DIY if capable). In this case, OP's problem is with a wear item, not a warrantied item, and neither the tech nor OP test driving it noticed slippage during test drives so best case is trying to get the dealer to take care of it as a courtesy as Swank suggested. Otherwise, non-dealer shop seems like the next alternative as others suggested.

[RudyH]

You are SOL, sorry to hear your misfortune - IMO try to get the courtesy of the dealership or see if you can meet them half way. Based on the mileage, if I wanted returned business I would at LEAST meet half way.
Go in asking for the replacement, if not ask for good faith.

Pretty sure AofA has the same 300 points as AofC
http://www.audi.ca/etc/medialib/ngw/ca/etc/certified_pre-owned.Par.0035.File.pdf/aud2099_cpochecklist.pdf

[RudyH]

and all you idiots are willing to pay $3000 extra for a "certified" car, nothing but a bullshit 40 min check that basically is the same as a state inspection. when a problem arises, what happens? fingers still gets pointed everywhere...

I am 100% sure it also comes with a warranty and better incentives then you will find at a bank...pretty uneducated comment if you ask me

[Tweakophyte]

and all you idiots are willing to pay $3000 extra for a "certified" car, nothing but a bullshit 40 min check that basically is the same as a state inspection. when a problem arises, what happens? fingers still gets pointed everywhere...


When the problems start, they cover it. The OP's problems is that this item is considered a wear item like the brakes and tires which aren't warrantied, but since those are viewable and inspected/replaced as part of the CPO process, you can't come back and complain you have bad brakes.

What the OP needs to do is take this up with the original dealer and ask them to cover the clutch because he believes they sold him a car with a worn clutch which they didn't properly CPO and are refusing to stand behind. They can either do it this one time and put the blame on the tech who should have test driven the car hard enough to make sure the clutch didn't slip as part of the CPO process but didn't. Either that or he'll call his lawyer. They can pick one of the two.... simple as that.


I am 100% sure it also comes with a warranty and better incentives then you will find at a bank...pretty uneducated comment if you ask me

I believe dealer cost is around $1800 for the extended warranty. I valued the CPO premium at $2K when I shopped for my car, which accounted for the extended warranty and the "good name" of a dealership versus a private sale. My car had 14K miles on it and was exactly 1yr old, which meant it had 3yrs and 26K miles left on the original warranty. From a practical standpoint it would have covered me for less than 2 years. With the CPO I got 6yr/100K, which effectively gave me 5yrs/85K of coverage. That is a huge increase in relative value of the warranty. Other factors went into the valuation process as well. It's not like you have a choice at time of purchase, which is the only way you could parse out $3K.

FWIW, I got my car with CPO for less than what a lesser-equipped model was being priced at at Auto Nation (i.e. no CPO).

Back to the clutch...
As I said above, finesse, cajole, and leverage the "good name" of the dealer you bought the car from and get them to cover most, if not all of the cost of repair. From their perspective, both you and they didn't see any issues with the clutch at time of purchase. However, both of you should want what's fair and reasonable. I would not expect the local dealer to cover something they have no visibility of, nor would I expect a district guy cover something another district handled. AoA is a long shot.

Good luck and let us know how it goes!

[JJgriss]

A lot of good comments, some more constructive than others, haha. The dealer called me Friday evening and claimed that the clutch was fine. I asked if they tried to reproduce the issue exactly as I described, that being high rpms, under load etc, and they said no, they had just driven around town. So Monday they will take it on the highway for more spirited driving to try and reproduce the issue. My plan is to continue to use finesse and good business sense to try and convince the dealer to share the costs with me. Will keep everyone posted. Thanks guys.

[SwankPeRFection]

A lot of good comments, some more constructive than others, haha. The dealer called me Friday evening and claimed that the clutch was fine. I asked if they tried to reproduce the issue exactly as I described, that being high rpms, under load etc, and they said no, they had just driven around town. So Monday they will take it on the highway for more spirited driving to try and reproduce the issue. My plan is to continue to use finesse and good business sense to try and convince the dealer to share the costs with me. Will keep everyone posted. Thanks guys.

You need to add a bit of time to your downshift between the time you're actually in the new gear and the release of the clutch and reengagement of the accel. It's possible the clutch is releasing too slowly because of the design of the dual-mass along with the clutch line being used (i.e. it's not a linear/quick release) and you could be inadvertently slipping it because you're not giving it enough time to reclamp before you gun it. It has happened with the pos stock clutch.

In the end, bottom line is this... if they don't do anything for you, then just shop for an aftermarket clutch, an independent to install it and MOST DEFINITELY give the original dealer a bad Audi review if you haven't already filled it out (the one you got for the sale of the vehicle). That'll hit them in the pocketbook of monthly bonuses they get from the manufacturer for failing to attain a certain grade. You screw you, you screw them. Simple as that. Besides, it's not like you're going back to them regularly anyway. Maybe even bring this up with them as something you "may" have to do because they've been unwilling to stand behind a CPO car they sold you that was supposed to be trouble-free. If you've already sent that survey back, then file another complaint of some kind through official channels to ding their business. They're dinging you for $3k+ on this, so fair is fair, right? Maybe I'm just vindictive, but the way I see it, if someone screws you, you should screw them right back. If someone goes above and beyond for you, you should do the same for them. I tell my dealer all the time when they screw something up that I'm bringing it up to them first so we can handle the issue off the official books (sort of speak). They do good by it and I send back a stellar review and leave off all the crap that would normally be on there. Seems fair to me, they want their monthly bonuses and incentives to come back to them, I want some stuff done right and my way. Tit for tat.

[JJgriss]

You need to add a bit of time to your downshift between the time you're actually in the new gear and the release of the clutch and reengagement of the accel. It's possible the clutch is releasing too slowly because of the design of the dual-mass along with the clutch line being used (i.e. it's not a linear/quick release) and you could be inadvertently slipping it because you're not giving it enough time to reclamp before you gun it. It has happened with the pos stock clutch.

In the end, bottom line is this... if they don't do anything for you, then just shop for an aftermarket clutch, an independent to install it and MOST DEFINITELY give the original dealer a bad Audi review if you haven't already filled it out (the one you got for the sale of the vehicle). That'll hit them in the pocketbook of monthly bonuses they get from the manufacturer for failing to attain a certain grade. You screw you, you screw them. Simple as that. Besides, it's not like you're going back to them regularly anyway. Maybe even bring this up with them as something you "may" have to do because they've been unwilling to stand behind a CPO car they sold you that was supposed to be trouble-free. If you've already sent that survey back, then file another complaint of some kind through official channels to ding their business. They're dinging you for $3k+ on this, so fair is fair, right? Maybe I'm just vindictive, but the way I see it, if someone screws you, you should screw them right back. If someone goes above and beyond for you, you should do the same for them. I tell my dealer all the time when they screw something up that I'm bringing it up to them first so we can handle the issue off the official books (sort of speak). They do good by it and I send back a stellar review and leave off all the crap that would normally be on there. Seems fair to me, they want their monthly bonuses and incentives to come back to them, I want some stuff done right and my way. Tit for tat.

Thanks Swank. The first part of your post has really resonated with me. I come from a 335i and have always prided myself on almost simultaneously being back on the gas after a shift in order to be as quick as possible. This has always worked well, but this is my first Audi and my first all-wheel drive car. I can tell you with confidence I am definitely not adding any time between the time I am in the new gear and the release of the clutch and reengagement of accel...I think we have found the problem...really appreciate this insight. Please note, I am not driving this way often, only in one of my spirited outings. Around town is smooth and hence no issues. boy did I learn something today.

Well, it will be interesting to hear what the dealership reports back tomorrow, but I am assuming they will come back and report no issues. Let's see what happens.

I do want to point out, that this need to add time seems like a strange requirement for a high performance $60k car. Is it directly related to our POS clutches? If I do upgrade my clutch, does the need to add time go away?

Once again, thanks for all of your insights. Will update again tomorrow or Tuesday.

[SwankPeRFection]

Yes, with an aftermarket clutch and pressure plate the engagement changes, so you should have a more direct engagement without the "float" affect of the OEM disk. Remember, these cars have gotten softened up over the years and Audi has gone from performance sedans to BS executive trims for the S models. Even some of the RS ones are too soft now in certain areas.

If the clutch doesn't slip after adjusting your technique a bit, deal with it until you need another clutch and then change it out to something a bit more raw in feel.

[chaos2984]

Sounds like a crap ass dealer thats not willing to help the customer. I use to work for a Chevy dealership and they went above and beyond for people when they bought a used car from them, from buying an aveo to a vette. They would always take care of the customer to an extent. But as far as clutch inspection, all the guy probably did was smash in it and gear and the clutch held and it was checked as good. There is no way to check a clutch without removing it.

How long have you owned it days wise. Are you within 60 or 90 days. I would fight it. I would think the dealer would help you out somehow. Sometimes its hard to find a good dealer whatever the make. I would get AOA involved. I bought my 2nd audi from a dealer used and they took care of some stuff at no charge. But i had to Call AOA to get them to fix the transmission issue.

[NWS4Guy]

Wow man... really?! Idiots? You'd think someone who buys an Audi would have more class.

You should be well aware that money can buy a lot of things, but not class.

[ny tdi]

You should be well aware that money can buy a lot of things, but not class.

Hey, don't get down in MadBusy168. He's obviously mad-busy, all the time. So he doesn't have time to be classy. Mmm'K?

[b6onboost]

Just stay professional and keep working with the dealer or AoA.

The clutch is wear and tear so its not covered. The only inspection they can do on it is just making sure it works and that is done in normal situations, they don't rip on the car and launch it a bunch of times to ensure the clutch still holds. However, it is equally as absurd that after 2500 miles your "Certified" car needs a $4k repair. The $4k quote for a clutch job is the bend-you-over price. If they won't fully cover it in good faith, see if they'll do it for cost, and split that with you, or something more reasonable.

Further proof that CPO is just a warranty. It covers some things, doesn't cover others. It can be a valuable thing, but it should not be considered an indication that a given car will be free of problems.

[schirm]

My clutch went on my NON CPO B7 A4 two days after I purchasing the car. I was on my way to school and broke down. The Audi dealer in NJ refused to pay. The Audi dealer in VA where I broke down said that they should be paying for this. They fixed my car and asked me for my hotel bill for the three nights I was stranded. They covered my hotel bill and clutch job, and said they are sending everything to the Audi Dealor in NJ for reimbursement. Never heard anything from them after that. So it really all depends on who you bring your car to. Some dealers will go above and beyond to make a customer happy. Some just do not give a sh*t.

[jlaudio]

I was quoted $2700 OTD from the audi dealer here in SLC for a clutch job. 4k might include a new pressure plate.

[schirm]

I was quoted $2700 OTD from the audi dealer here in SLC for a clutch job. 4k might include a new pressure plate.

I was quoted 3,000K for just labor from an Audi Dealer.