JetMech's Pag Parts Turbo PPT EFR 6758 build

[JetMech]

Hello fellow members its finally time for my build thread
I have a silver 5.5 B7 that i bought in 2010 with 69k miles. it now has 99K.
My car will be the first car to have the Pag Parts Turbo longitudinal turbo kit installed and will be used to develop both Borg Warner and Garrett BT solutions for the B7 platform. The kits will be available either externally or internally waste gated and will come with either a test pipe or full down pipe. Arnold From Pag Parts does all the fabrication in house and can fab up any custom requests you may have. He will be on the thread periodically updating and adding photos as the project goes along feel free to ask questions his username is passatg60

I had ppt drop-in rods Installed by Allen @ AVAutowerks about a year ago now its Arnold's turn to show my car some love. Arnold originaly started this project 2 years ago. modifying a T4 flanged 6758 to fit on his bottom mount FSI v-band manifold. The project got shelved but the process is all documented here (http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5163852-EFR-Anatomy) Fast forward to today and its finally going on a car. The plan is to make this a completely bolt-on solution. the factory air box will be reused. stock PCV. stock intake manifold and the factory DV can be reused. I opted to upgrade to a Turbosmart Kompact Dual port 50/50 BOV/DV(yes I know full DV is better but i want the sound). I am also using a Turbosmart waste gate actuator. The tune is gonna be a eurodyne tune first for 93 oct then hopefully E85. am sure am missing a lot of information people might want to know so feel free to comment and ask either myself or Arnold.

current progress- Manifold and down pipe complete

Engine mods
PPT Brute HX rifle drilled drop in connecting rods
ACL crank bearings
installed with ARP hardware
APR Fuel Pump
S3 injectors
Pag Parts FMIC
PPT post TB W/M adapter plate
more to come...


Car mods
TTRS LPFP
OBX exhaust
D2 coilovers
034 turbo inlet tube(soon to be removed)
DTM exterior
034 RSB
other things i spent my money on and forgot

17985

17984

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18014

18013

[aluthman]

It's about time a fresh build popped up! I want to see more EFR builds, because I don't have the money to do my own just yet.

[viperdsa]

Looking forward to see this finally finished, I remember when that thread was started and was sad when it never concluded.

Was planning on that manifold with an ewg 7163. So with this build finally finished maybe there will be a full kit by the time I'm ready for it.


Edit: Do you know if they have any plans to support the B2 EFR frame as well?

[JetMech]

Looking forward to see this finally finished, I remember when that thread was started and was sad when it never concluded.

Was planning on that manifold with an ewg 7163. So with this build finally finished maybe there will be a full kit by the time I'm ready for it.


Edit: Do you know if they have any plans to support the B2 EFR frame as well?

I was thinking 7163 to its a great performer but this was ready and in my price range so i went for it. I can't see any reason why they wouldn't offer the B2 frame as well there is planty of room in our cars for bigger turbos. Am sure if you want it Arnold would build it for you.

@aluthman Yeah this platform is long overdue for some love form the tuners and vendors.

[seal66]

What are you gonna do for your low side fueling, what Injectors, when can I buy the 6758 kit with manifold lol. Also I run e85 on my ko4(08 Audi a4), I can run my system out of fuel on a ko4 with both an upgrade low and high end. Just fyi

Sent from the road

[viperdsa]

I was thinking 7163 to its a great performer but this was ready and in my price range so i went for it. I can't see any reason why they wouldn't offer the B2 frame as well there is planty of room in our cars for bigger turbos. Am sure if you want it Arnold would build it for you.

@aluthman Yeah this platform is long overdue for some love form the tuners and vendors.

I just remember seeing the picture of how tight a squeeze it was for the wastegate actuator, which is one of the reasons I was planning on going with an external wastegate.

[JetMech]

What are you gonna do for your low side fueling, what Injectors, when can I buy the 6758 kit with manifold lol. Also I run e85 on my ko4(08 Audi a4), I can run my system out of fuel on a ko4 with both an upgrade low and high end. Just fyi

Sent from the road

S3 injectors, eventually gonna get the TTRS pump w/ BMP and yeah i know E85 can run the system out of fuel, but the E85 is a far off goal gonna stick with 93 in the begining. Yes you will be able to buy this kit with the EFR or Garrett of your choice.

[seal66]

I like I like.

I haven't asked yet what lpfp my shop used but by guessing it's a modified ttrs pump in my housing. No bmp or rs4 controller was needed to control. Let me ask how far my s3's are pushed so it can give you a idea if they can handle the 6758. If you want of course.

E85 is fun man lol. Makes the ko4 a different animal really. I couldn't imagine it on a 6758.

So is the kit gonna be the lines, dp, etc.. to install

Sent from the road

[JetMech]

I just remember seeing the picture of how tight a squeeze it was for the wastegate actuator, which is one of the reasons I was planning on going with an external wastegate.

yeah in that picture it is tight, Don't quote me on this but i believe that could be solved with a custom bracket and actuator rod that would allow it to clear on a B2 frame

[JetMech]

I like I like.

I haven't asked yet what lpfp my shop used but by guessing it's a modified ttrs pump in my housing. No bmp or rs4 controller was needed to control. Let me ask how far my s3's are pushed so it can give you a idea if they can handle the 6758. If you want of course.

E85 is fun man lol. Makes the ko4 a different animal really. I couldn't imagine it on a 6758.

So is the kit gonna be the lines, dp, etc.. to install

Sent from the road

Its not set in stone yet but this is what the transverse kit comes with so it should be similar. Am sure Arnold will chime in later.
Edit: ill appreciate if you can get some info on the E85

FSI turbo kit components (you can alter turbo and wastegate choice):

- Stainless Steel Vbanded Turbocharger Manifold
- GT3071R .72AR Vbanded Housing
- Oil Feed Line Set
- Oil Restrictor
- Coolant Line Kit
- 3" Stainless Steel Vbanded Downpipe with hardware
- Inlet piping set with Silicone and hardware
- Turbosmart Compgate40 Wastegate
- Dump Tube Rerouted to Downpipe
- Vband Clamp Manifold to Turbo
- Charge Piping Set with hardware
- Exhaust Manifold Gasket
- Air Filter

[Firefox250]

Finally an EFR build! We are all looking forward to this set up!

[seal66]

Yes. Someone brave enough to hopefully see it all the way through
And yes I will try to get info on the injectors for you man.

What tuning you using?

Sent from the road

[drumnjuny]

brave enough or dumb enough? fine line between bravery and stupidity...


run while you still can, op!!!! sell your turbo to carl lol he's already in too deep to back out

[JetMech]

@drummjuny lol thanks for the words of confidence

@seal66 maestro tune


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[seal66]

@drummjuny lol thanks for the words of confidence

@seal66 maestro tune


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Good luck man.

Sent from the road

[drumnjuny]

haha just jokes. i'm very excited for your build, hopefully you can make less mistakes than the rest of us [up]

[Firefox250]

run while you still can, op!!!! sell your turbo to carl lol he's already in too deep to back out

Yeah I'm in way to deep now. After IE dropped our platform, Mec and I have been thinking of getting a local fabrication shop to build us a twin scroll manifold for a TS EFR 7163. However if that plan falls through PPT kit looks promising as an alternative. When is the manifold going to be done?

To squeeze the most out of this turbo, I would look elsewhere for a custom tune. Maestro is limited and difficult to use from what the other guys on here have been saying.

[JetMech]

The manifold has already been cast it just needs to go on the CNC for fine machining and am a couple manifolds back but should be done this week. I've heard of maestro's limitations but I also heard the software is getting better I'll give it a try


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[Operator]

Finally an EFR build! We are all looking forward to this set up!

http://www.mazda3forums.com/images/smilies/legacy/uhhok.gif ---> http://www.mazda3forums.com/images/smilies/legacy/wtc.gif

[drumnjuny]

http://www.mazda3forums.com/images/smilies/legacy/uhhok.gif ---> http://www.mazda3forums.com/images/smilies/legacy/wtc.gif

i know right haha...

[Firefox250]

Oops I meant to say ANOTHER EFR build. Sorry Dave please forgive me

[JetMech]

small Update on the project. the monifold has been completed and mounted to a mock up motor to test the fit and get an idea of how to mount the waste gate actuator. hopeflly next week the turbo will be installed.

18011

[mec]

lookin good! can't wait to see how this turns out

[drumnjuny]

looks awesome!!

[JetMech]

side view of the mani after media blasting


18016

[styling]

any update?

exhaust housing is t25 .64 ar modified to vband?

[JetMech]

no updates :( looking like june 24th will be the date now. Yes t25 .64 ar modified to v-band

[seal66]

dang man. Whats is the hold up if you dont mind me asking?

Also, I asked about E85 on my s3's. So the injectors are not maxed out. I run a 150 Bar pressure with a 155 PRV. Just wanted to let ya know.

[passatg60]

Hello all. We are going through a heavy schedule at the moment. We are taking delivery of the vehicle on the 24th because that is where the OP's schedule and ours just happen to sync

[viperdsa]

Looks like the 6758 comes in a full v-band ewg .85 a/r housing now

[canadianA4B7]

was actually looking at these turbos earlier today!!! glad someone is going forward with a build!! im in the works for some changes on my car (thanx mec) but not sure what I should be doing. the GTX is a great Turbo but im interested in what else is out there ill be keeping an eye on this for sure.

ive wondered about the sizes of the turbine housings? they have a .64 and a .85??? why nothing in the mid range?? like my .72?? and is there any vids or any thing showing the spool up of the 2 different housings on that turbo?? anyone come across the info?

[viperdsa]

The full v-band .85 housing just showed up on full race not to long ago so doubt there is any info on it yet. Also if they are doing the same thing with the 6758 as they did with the 7163 there should be a full v-band iwg housing on the way.

As for the .64 housing...

there is a stroked b6 build here: http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/539448-After-rain-come-sunshine-An-all-out-2liter-EFR6758-build
It was hitting full boost around 3800ish

There is also a B5 A4 running a 6758 but can't find the thread.

Operator has one on his B7 but he hasn't driven his car in some time from the sounds of it.

It sounds like the Cobalt guys are using some witchcraft and hitting full boost around 3k


Edit: Here is some testing Perrin did back when the EFR line first came out
http://blog.perrinperformance.com/efr6758-stock-sti-turbo-killer/

[Operator]

There is also a B5 A4 running a 6758 but can't find the thread.


Dan's brothers car.
http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/448813-Excuse-me-Miss-but-can-I-get-you-our-your-panties


Operator has one on his B7 but he hasn't driven his car in some time from the sounds of it.

Yeh, bluntly "kinda sucks not having a operable car!!".

[passatg60]

I guess this would be the first build off a real production kit and vbanded. We are also using specific components that are not standard out of the box. Should be fun [up]

[Firefox250]

Is your car at the shop now?

[mec]

slightly related but this is a neat build

http://audirevolution.net/forum/index.php?topic=2470.0

[passatg60]

Car is here. Nice link and project on that jetta awd conversion. What a coincidence as we are doing one as well

1.8t block conversion to run pump without pressure relief adapter plate...
http://www.pagparts.com/images/mike_2.jpg

In the bay...
http://www.pagparts.com/images/mike_1.jpg

Little glimpse in the back will reveal a 3yr old manifold that was daily driven and a 35R variant. Also, notice the driveshaft :)....
http://www.pagparts.com/images/mike_3.jpg

[Firefox250]

Umm excuse my lack of knowledge but I don't see the driveshafts.

[mec]

its to the right and above on the picture of the manifold, next to the wastegate port. This is a transverse engine so its perpendicular to the driveshaft.

[derrek]

So what car is this motor going in?

[Firefox250]

So what wrong/done to the drive shaft?

[passatg60]

Its a MK5 Jetta GLI. They never came with AWD :)

[Firefox250]

Oooooohhhh, wow that went right over my head. I couldn't see it. Is the AWD from a 4motion Passat?

[derrek]

Oooooohhhh, wow that went right over my head. I couldn't see it. Is the AWD from a 4motion Passat?

I think it's from a golf r or r32.


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[passatg60]

I believe its actually from a TT MK2. Anyhow, getting back on topic, there was a little bit of progress today as we got the time and room to commence this project...

Here is the engine bay right before getting on with it. I suspect the finished product will not look much different as we are trying to keep this as OEM as possible...

http://www.pagparts.com/images/akeem_1.jpg

Airbox removed and getting ready to take out the K03...

http://www.pagparts.com/images/akeem_2.jpg

K03 extracted...

http://www.pagparts.com/images/akeem_3.jpg

Trial fit of our SS vbanded 6758 assembly from the bottom. Looking good with lots of space...

http://www.pagparts.com/images/akeem_4.jpg

Here is how its looking from above. So far, its been a cakewalk. We will be modifying the actuator bracket next as well as getting it ready for our FMIC based on a Garrett 550hp core...

http://www.pagparts.com/images/akeem_7.jpg

[mec]

I believe its actually from a TT MK2. Anyhow, getting back on topic, there was a little bit of progress today as we got the time and room to commence this project...

Here is the engine bay right before getting on with it. I suspect the finished product will not look much different as we are trying to keep this as OEM as possible...

http://www.pagparts.com/images/akeem_1.jpg

Airbox removed and getting ready to take out the K03...

http://www.pagparts.com/images/akeem_2.jpg

K03 extracted...

http://www.pagparts.com/images/akeem_3.jpg

Trial fit of our SS vbanded 6758 assembly from the bottom. Looking good with lots of space...

http://www.pagparts.com/images/akeem_4.jpg

Here is how its looking from above. So far, its been a cakewalk. We will be modifying the actuator bracket next as well as getting it ready for our FMIC based on a Garrett 550hp core...

http://www.pagparts.com/images/akeem_7.jpg

Wow that is fantastic....And people said that a 6758 would be a tight fit, you could totally fit two 6758's in that engine bay. Any plans to do a twin scroll kit? I'd love to see twin scroll numbers on a 6758.

[Firefox250]

Nice progress! Is it possible to you reuse the stock DV on an EFR?

[passatg60]

Thanks. It does look like it belongs in there. There's more room then the OE K03, even, with all of its stuff on it. Engine mount bracket was a little tricky but we got it. Our philosophy is to make it as boring for the end user as possible (maintenance-wise). We have customers that really put their cars to the test, for example, on the Nurburgring. This particular car went from Sweden to Germany (14hrs one way), spent a week on the Nurburgring and drove home...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EITg4ISa0Dc

As for the twin scroll setups, I've been dabbling with the idea but you really have to run some decent sized A/R's as to not stifle the top end. On a turbo this size, there might not be much that you notice other then losing some steam upstairs when using comparable housings. When you start sizing the housings to keep the powerband from falling up top, the spool and torque down low starts equalizing a bit more. Many drag guys have abandoned the twin scrolls as a result of this. I think the 6758 may be a very good performer with the provided open scroll housing with decent spool characteristics. Once you start getting bigger, it starts making more sense. We like keeping things simple and reliable. Twin scroll housing dividers also have been known to crack...

[passatg60]

Nice progress! Is it possible to you reuse the stock DV on an EFR?

Of course. The beauty of it is, you can mount the n75 and dv on there just like stock

[viperdsa]

What wastegate canister are you going to be runing on it?

[canadianA4B7]

wow that fit ment looks like it was ment to be. no custom motor mount?? im totally jealous. my GTX cam equipped with this custom motor mount and is prolly the biggest PITA to get in and out of the engine pay. im sure yours is snug but what looks like miles of space to get it in and out. and that manifold looks quite nice aswell. wonder if they could make a hot side that would bolt up to my FSI manifold from ATP..... id be all over a an EFR if I could get it to mount to what I already have. and with the custom motor mount I could fit 3!!!!!

[viperdsa]

wow that fit ment looks like it was ment to be. no custom motor mount?? im totally jealous. my GTX cam equipped with this custom motor mount and is prolly the biggest PITA to get in and out of the engine pay. im sure yours is snug but what looks like miles of space to get it in and out. and that manifold looks quite nice aswell. wonder if they could make a hot side that would bolt up to my FSI manifold from ATP..... id be all over a an EFR if I could get it to mount to what I already have. and with the custom motor mount I could fit 3!!!!!

Is it the ATP T25 flange manifold or the T3?

Because you can get an EFR 6758 with a T25 flange

[canadianA4B7]

Is it the ATP T25 flange manifold or the T3?

Because you can get an EFR 6758 with a T25 flange

I don't remember off hand... I have a feeling it is actually a T25 that seems to ring a bell. so what yer telling me then is to sell my GTX 2863?? im in the works to sell my spare 2.7 motor a set of rs6 turbos, and countless other parts. contact efr and start off with the new motor and new turbo!!

only thing is I do like the fact that the gtx w .72 hot side hits max boost at about 3700 and has held 26 or 28psi to 7000. and no head work was done at that point. now that im gonna clean the head im on the fence about turbo choice. the gtx I assume shud still push tones of air im sure.

[viperdsa]

I don't remember off hand... I have a feeling it is actually a T25 that seems to ring a bell. so what yer telling me then is to sell my GTX 2863?? im in the works to sell my spare 2.7 motor a set of rs6 turbos, and countless other parts. contact efr and start off with the new motor and new turbo!!

only thing is I do like the fact that the gtx w .72 hot side hits max boost at about 3700 and has held 26 or 28psi to 7000. and no head work was done at that point. now that im gonna clean the head im on the fence about turbo choice. the gtx I assume shud still push tones of air im sure.

Lol that is up to you if you want to switch to a different turbo.

A 6758 would spool slower since it is a fair bit bigger than a GTX2863. If you wanted to switch over to an EFR with similar spool I imagine a 6258 would be about the same, since it is very similar in size, flow rate and HP rating.

[Firefox250]

only thing is I do like the fact that the gtx w .72 hot side hits max boost at about 3700 and has held 26 or 28psi to 7000.

What elevation are you at? Those are impressive numbers!

[canadianA4B7]

I think just seeing what others are throwing together always makes me think of going bigger or better. the vids posted seem that this turbo spools around the same as mine. Im not sure though I think id have to get into a car with the turbo and feel it as watching doesn't really compare to in car driving experience. any way great build regardless!! don't want this to get too off OP topic.

hopefully he can throw up some vids of this beast once everything is buttoned together. My hats off to you going this route.

[canadianA4B7]

What elevation are you at? Those are impressive numbers!

EPY and I had numerous conversations about what hot side I should go with and we had both agreed that I would see significant flow on the top end by buying the .72 custom hot side. driving mine its actually pretty impressive that it pulls strong the entire range. my elevation i have no idea at all. im in Niagara on the lake Ontario Canada. not sure how to find my elevation.

[mec]

EPY and I had numerous conversations about what hot side I should go with and we had both agreed that I would see significant flow on the top end by buying the .72 custom hot side. driving mine its actually pretty impressive that it pulls strong the entire range. my elevation i have no idea at all. im in Niagara on the lake Ontario Canada. not sure how to find my elevation.

Do you have an RNSE?

[canadianA4B7]

Do you have an RNSE?
Nope. Wud I like one at no cost YES.

244' that sound any good??

[passatg60]

We have set up the GTX2863 and GTX2867's on 1.8t's so I dont have a direct comparison to how it performs on an FSI. Most of our FSI setups have, so far, been billet GT3071R's with either our .72AR SS vbanded housings or Tial .63's with external gates (which we routinely make 460+whp on 25psi pump/meth on FWD). I do like the 67 but it never really felt that much more responsive then the regular 2871R nor that much more powerful. Its turbine limited with that NS111 wheel. The 63's are a bit different. They are very responsive. Lacks some punch but for what it its, a pretty decent performer. I would suggest it for auto-x apps.

Here is a mini update

SMIC's out
http://www.pagparts.com/images/akeem_8.jpg

Will commence on FMIC shortly
http://www.pagparts.com/images/akeem_9.jpg

[passatg60]

Along the same lines...

3Bar MAP sensor that most of you guys are prob familiar with
http://www.pagparts.com/images/akeem_10.jpg

MAP sensor flange to incorporate into charge system being cut
http://www.pagparts.com/images/akeem_11.jpg

[passatg60]

Endtanks finished
http://pagparts.com/images/akeem_12.jpg

Pre-fitment on the car
http://pagparts.com/images/akeem_13.jpg

[viperdsa]

Are you going to be using one of the standard BW wastegate canisters or an aftermarket on from Turbosmart or Full-Race?

[passatg60]

You asked me that before and I must've just glanced over it. Well, I was going to use the standard canister but after pressure testing it, it behaved a bit oddly. I just threw it aside as I never planned on using it after initial testing. We are going with the Turbosmart unit as its rock solid (a good actuator will actually pick up a few ponies). Only problems are that its quite large and strategic placement is in order. Also, the EFR doesnt seem to use a standardize rod that most actuators come with so we need to enlarge the hole a bit along with extending the rod as we need to place the actuator in front of the comp housing so it all fits nicely. We will be producing whatever is necessary to make this all happen along with our own turbine housings for 6758/7163

http://www.pagparts.com/images/akeem_14.jpg

[viperdsa]

No worries, thanks for the reply. Looking forward to this getting finished.

[styling]

you make exhaust housing for efr 6758?

turbosmart canister provides bent rod?

[passatg60]

yes, turbosmart has both bent and straight. I'm going to talk to them about specific length rod for this app. I am doing a .72ar vbanded exhaust housing for these.

[styling]

Very nice!
Possibly to sold separately custom turbosmart canister?

Ar72 with iwg or ewg?

Envoyé de mon HTC One en utilisant Tapatalk

[passatg60]

Yes, this could happen but I'm probably going to jump into the 7163 first. We'll see...

Anyhow, cant allow a day to go by without a progress post... Had to step away from this briefly but here is another component that falls in line with our stockish approach to this project. Lets call it the MAF delete pipe. For those that want to run the MAF, its a simple swap of the MAF-Delete component...

http://pagparts.com/images/akeem_15.jpg

http://pagparts.com/images/akeem_16.jpg

[aluthman]

This is going to be a sweet setup when it's done.

[passatg60]

Ar72 with iwg or ewg?



Sorry, this one I must've glossed over as well. Very busy here! I am on the fence as far as what to offer. I have a beautiful vband in/out housing for 30R based turbos that spool great and holds power up top. Its a happy medium b/w the .63 and .82AR's. Would you guys rather have it internally or externally gated? Ultimately, externally gated setups are a bit more consistent under high boost conditions


This is going to be a sweet setup when it's done.

Thanks. We are always looking to please :). Hopefully the owner likes it

[passatg60]

Not a ton done today. Looking like we may be wrapping this up by Sat or Mon...

Just relocated the power steering cooler and mounted the FMIC today with a bumper test fit to get the fogs in there so we can pipe the intercooler around it all.

Power steering line removed and cut
http://www.pagparts.com/images/akeem_18.jpg

Flared out the small portion we will use
http://www.pagparts.com/images/akeem_22.jpg

Fitted
http://www.pagparts.com/images/akeem_21.jpg

Test fit bumper and vent
http://www.pagparts.com/images/akeem_20.jpg

[passatg60]

Put a few hours into this project today. Just looking to complete the piping so we can try to wrap this up on Monday, hopefully :)

Lower cold side
http://www.pagparts.com/images/akeem_25.jpg

Upper cold side
http://www.pagparts.com/images/akeem_32.jpg

MAP sensor bung
http://www.pagparts.com/images/akeem_31.jpg

Map sensor connected
http://www.pagparts.com/images/akeem_29.jpg

Step back shot
http://www.pagparts.com/images/akeem_30.jpg

Hot side
http://www.pagparts.com/images/akeem_24.jpg

Hot side underneath
http://www.pagparts.com/images/akeem_23.jpg

FMIC shot underneath
http://www.pagparts.com/images/akeem_27.jpg

We also managed to get started on some of the line work
http://www.pagparts.com/images/akeem_34.jpg

[mec]

You asked me that before and I must've just glanced over it. Well, I was going to use the standard canister but after pressure testing it, it behaved a bit oddly. I just threw it aside as I never planned on using it after initial testing. We are going with the Turbosmart unit as its rock solid (a good actuator will actually pick up a few ponies). Only problems are that its quite large and strategic placement is in order. Also, the EFR doesnt seem to use a standardize rod that most actuators come with so we need to enlarge the hole a bit along with extending the rod as we need to place the actuator in front of the comp housing so it all fits nicely. We will be producing whatever is necessary to make this all happen along with our own turbine housings for 6758/7163

http://www.pagparts.com/images/akeem_14.jpg

Any minor issues with the wastegate are easily fixed using the n75, buying a whole new wastegate canister without even trying out the borg warner one seems unforgiving. I think it would be nice to have a full OEM turbo review, otherwise anyone who sees your build thread is going to also order a turbosmart when it very well may not even be needed.

[mec]

Awesome job on the intercooler piping, looks real clean

[passatg60]

We will be using the N75 most liikely as we have used it with the stock ecu as well as with Eurodyne's Boost Manager. The serial on our turbo was checked and it came from one of BW's earlier batches. There were some issues with their early canisters and this one was exhibiting odd holding behavior with the standard preload. The preload is very important when using the N75 and since the Turbosmart is adjustable, we can dial this in correctly. Its a quality piece of equpiment that we've used on various builds. Instead of ordering the standard actuator, since we had this on the shelf, the OP didnt mind using the superior product. It has exhibited better boost stability. Although I dont mind this being a product showcasing thread, its a customer's project first and foremost. I have my own B7 which I'll probably throw a 7163 on. I'll use the BW canister on that first.

[mec]

We will be using the N75 most liikely as we have used it with the stock ecu as well as with Eurodyne's Boost Manager. The serial on our turbo was checked and it came from one of BW's earlier batches. There were some issues with their early canisters and this one was exhibiting odd holding behavior with the standard preload. The preload is very important when using the N75 and since the Turbosmart is adjustable, we can dial this in correctly. Its a quality piece of equpiment that we've used on various builds. Instead of ordering the standard actuator, since we had this on the shelf, the OP didnt mind using the superior product. It has exhibited better boost stability. Although I dont mind this being a product showcasing thread, its a customer's project first and foremost. I have my own B7 which I'll probably throw a 7163 on. I'll use the BW canister on that first.

Woot for the 7163! Yeah I hear you, gotta use what you have on the shelf.

What benefits have you seen from switching from a good BW canister to a turbosmart? Boost stability can be controlled via the n75, so I'm curious what else it does.

[passatg60]

Well, its not just how its controlled by a boost solenoid. Most actuators arent dual staged like externals can be. When you have inadequate springs in an internal actuator, backpressure effects boost stability as well. Especially when you are in high boost/high engine VE range. Alot of ppl think they can just crank the preload to suit, but guess what? When you do this, you decrease the range of motion which prevents the flapper from opening up all the way. This can lead to boost creep and unstable boost control as well. This is when a good actuator and spring is beneficial.

[mec]

Well, its not just how its controlled by a boost solenoid. Most actuators arent dual staged like externals can be. When you have inadequate springs in an internal actuator, backpressure effects boost stability as well. Especially when you are in high boost/high engine VE range. Alot of ppl think they can just crank the preload to suit, but guess what? When you do this, you decrease the range of motion which prevents the flapper from opening up all the way. This can lead to boost creep and unstable boost control as well. This is when a good actuator and spring is beneficial.

did BW not offer an exchange program for the early faulty wastegates?

I found too that if you crank the preload it makes part throttle much harsher, decreases drivability quite a bit.

[passatg60]

They are aware of this unit. There is a bit of a concern with the turbine wheel as well as they also revised it as a small minority succumbed to failure on these earlier batches. The chra is 100% covered for authorized distributors. I also need a fully functional wastegate as BW has a 1760deg EGT disclaimer that cannot be exceeded. I may still exchange this unit out before I run it.

Oh, thanks for the compliment on the piping :)

[mec]

They are aware of this unit. There is a bit of a concern with the turbine wheel as well as they also revised it as a small minority succumbed to failure on these earlier batches. The chra is 100% covered for authorized distributors. I also need a fully functional wastegate as BW has a 1760deg EGT disclaimer that cannot be exceeded. I may still exchange this unit out before I run it.

Oh, thanks for the compliment on the piping :)

I think I heard about that, at high turbine RPM they would blow up right? hopefully thats not an issue with the 7163.....When can we expect your own build? I've been dying to see a 2.0t fsi 7163 build.

[passatg60]

The turbine wheels separate themselves from the shaft. As for my project, this year is all I can say. We'll be producing our own turbine housing for those as the provided .80-.85ar is a bit larger then i'd like for a daily driver.

[JetMech]

I haven't posted in a while but I'm very pleased with the excellent work Arnold has been doing on my car and how quickly it's been progressing. Mec I think the opposite is true with the wastegate canister, people buy the turbo as an assembly and never even think about the canister unless it malfunctions. While this build will bring attention to the other options out there(no problem with this thread showcasing new products). It's great that everybody is asking questions and posting ideas as every answer improves the community's knowledge of the platform for future builds. So everyone continue to post your ideas of stuff you would like to have on your Cars so we can get some great new products for the B7 from Pag Parts and look for Arnold's build his car will be a beast.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[passatg60]

Thanks buddy. I think it is also interesting to see how the turbo performs with the kitchen sink thrown at it [up]

Mec's points are totally valid too

[613B6]

Badass setup so far, top notch fab work.

[passatg60]

I appreciate it. How is the surge tank working out? :)

[Firefox250]

This is awesome! How long of a break in period are you going wait before a dyno run? Also I'm intrigued to hear about a modified 7163 with a lower AR.

[passatg60]

There is no real break in period on this one. The time to get on the dyno will depend on the upgrades needed that the owner is going to have to consider down the road. This includes complete fueling upgrades as well as the clutch. Until these things are integrated, it would be pointless. It will be running on lowish boost levels for now.

[Firefox250]

What fueling upgrades and clutch do you recommend?

[passatg60]

The usual HPFP, LPFP (using a TTRS pump in this case), LPFP controller to stepover PWM module, Eurodyne BMP for WM / Extra Injector Controller (putting an additional injector in the system), S3 injectors. As for the clutch, I would just bite the bullet w/ a CMFX400 8 puck. Its aggressive enough to hold alot of power and still have decent daily manners. Gone are the days that I would recommend any organic when dealing with approaching 330+ft/lbs torque. We were trying to tune a TTQ with my billet 71R kit and we couldnt get past 21psi before the SB Kevlar started slipping @ 382awhp...

[mec]

The usual HPFP, LPFP (using a TTRS pump in this case), LPFP controller to stepover PWM module, Eurodyne BMP for WM / Extra Injector Controller (putting an additional injector in the system), S3 injectors. As for the clutch, I would just bite the bullet w/ a CMFX400 8 puck. Its aggressive enough to hold alot of power and still have decent daily manners. Gone are the days that I would recommend any organic when dealing with approaching 330+ft/lbs torque. We were trying to tune a TTQ with my billet 71R kit and we couldnt get past 21psi before the SB Kevlar started slipping @ 382awhp...

Its kevlar on one side and organic on the other?

[passatg60]

The FX400 is full ceramic. The SB Stg3 Endurance is kevlar and I wouldnt recommend it for anything over 300whp no matter what they say.

[mec]

The FX400 is full ceramic. The SB Stg3 Endurance is kevlar and I wouldnt recommend it for anything over 300whp no matter what they say.

Full Kevlar? Kevlar pp side and Kevlar flywheel side? What's your thoughts on the jhm clutch kit?

[passatg60]

Yes, full kevlar. I have no experience with their product so I cannot say. I've been a fan of CM for a while now. I have a 500awhp A4 BT thats been running on one for a few months without hiccups

[mec]

Yes, full kevlar. I have no experience with their product so I cannot say. I've been a fan of CM for a while now. I have a 500awhp A4 BT thats been running on one for a few months without hiccups

Gotcha. I just ordered their stage 4 Kevlar ceramic disc....wanted to see what your thoughts were.

1.8t a4? That's quite a few ponies! Is that I a full frame 30?

What's your opinion on hta?

[passatg60]

This is a billet GT30R with our .72ar vbanded housing in a B5 1.8TQ

Here's a terrible shot of the dyno pull on a AWD 424x dyno which doesnt read high. 32psi on E85 with a completely stock head/cams. Only rods and pistons (82mm - 8.5:1)
http://www.pagparts.com/images/jayce_495awhp.jpg

Very similar to the FSI...
http://www.pagparts.com/images/ss-vband-long-external.jpg

The HTA seems like nice turbos. I have my own line which includes a 73mm 30R setup and a 76mm / 59mm inducer'ed GT35R setup (beast mode)

[drumnjuny]

is there any advantage to having your external wastegate feed into the downpipe? i know i'm a noob haha just curious. i know a lot of other guys just run a dump to anywhere.. out the hood, straight down,... whatever haha.

i guess smell maybe?

[mec]

is there any advantage to having your external wastegate feed into the downpipe? i know i'm a noob haha just curious. i know a lot of other guys just run a dump to anywhere.. out the hood, straight down,... whatever haha.

i guess smell maybe?

smell and sound.....its soooooo loud think of your diverter valve but 5 times louder, and 100 times smellier.

[drumnjuny]

yeah cool just making sure i wasn't missing something. like the lack of pressure in moving air or some bernoulli's principle effect that would draw air out faster hahahaha.

can't wait to recirc so i'm not making retarded blow off noises in parking lots anymore [up]

[mec]

it still makes that noise, just not as harsh...the gtx line is incredibly noisy. I think its the anti surge compressor housing that cuases it....that turbo spool noise that is super loud.

[drumnjuny]

it still makes that noise, just not as harsh...the gtx line is incredibly noisy. I think its the anti surge compressor housing that cuases it....that turbo spool noise that is super loud.

interesting! well with my skid plate on its like half as loud which is nice but still not good enough for me unfortunately. plus the real reason i'm doing it is so that i can take MAF readings haha. noise reduction is a side benefit

[passatg60]

is there any advantage to having your external wastegate feed into the downpipe? i know i'm a noob haha just curious. i know a lot of other guys just run a dump to anywhere.. out the hood, straight down,... whatever haha.

i guess smell maybe?

Its mostly for noise. It doesnt offer a performance advantage. People generally get tired of running an external dump after a while. Its a bit of attention that they could do without. I would think that gas velocity would also aid in making vac in this area which would aid in evacuating wastegated exhaust but I'm sure most of it doesnt need help as backpressure has a way of wanting to find the path of least resistance.

[drumnjuny]

Its mostly for noise. It doesnt offer a performance advantage. People generally get tired of running an external dump after a while. Its a bit of attention that they could do without. I would think that gas velocity would also aid in making vac in this area which would aid in evacuating wastegated exhaust but I'm sure most of it doesnt need help as backpressure has a way of wanting to find the path of least resistance.

haha that's exactly what i was talking about, the vacuum in those pipes would actually make it release faster technically. but i suppose if you're going 50+mph then the external wastegate might have more vacuum being created inside!

and yeah i try to avoid as much attention as possible lol.

[passatg60]

haha that's exactly what i was talking about, the vacuum in those pipes would actually make it release faster technically. but i suppose if you're going 50+mph then the external wastegate might have more vacuum being created inside!

and yeah i try to avoid as much attention as possible lol.

[up] It will definitely scavenge faster!

[passatg60]

Ok, I guess I had prematurely set the finish date. There are always a few odds and ends missing when trying to finish up a project. Especially when doing it for the first time on a specific platform. But there is some progress...

Modified bracket to fit actuator...
http://www.pagparts.com/images/akeem_35.jpg

Backside. We had to open up the swingvalve joint to allow room for standard actuator rod...
http://www.pagparts.com/images/akeem_36.jpg

Cat-Delete pipe done to connect to OP's downpipe
http://www.pagparts.com/images/akeem_37.jpg

[Firefox250]

Awesome work! When do you think a dyno run would happen?

[mec]

Awesome work! When do you think a dyno run would happen?

I could whip up a dyno for that thing right meow! How much WHP and WTQ would you like?

[JetMech]

Not for a while I have to do a couple things to the car before that like Clutch,proper tune, low side fueling, other things that are not at the top of my head right now. Would have loved a drakes stg V to bad he stopped making them ( anyone have one I'll buy it now) but it's looking like it's gonna be a FX400 8 puck as I can't find another full faced ceramic like drakes anywhere. Fueling is probably gonna be BM+


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Firefox250]

I'm actually having my mechanic installing an FX400 8-puck next week. My Vast stage 3 burned out at the drag strip on me.

Best price:

http://lightningmotorsports.com/i-1924418.aspx?gclid=CPDsq8W0s78CFQODaQodzjUAHA

[Jake@JHM]

Want a clutch setup that will have OEM Relability, OEM Feel, and be able to hold the power a monster?

Look no further.

http://jhmotorsports.com/shop/catalog/jhm-lightweight-flywheel-and-clutch-combo-b7-rs4-pressure-plate-for-b7-a4-20t-p-1257.html

We use this same Pressure Plate, Stage 4 Disc, and similar Flywheel design in our 10sec B5 S4!

[mec]

Want a clutch setup that will have OEM Relability, OEM Feel, and be able to hold the power a monster?

Look no further.

http://jhmotorsports.com/shop/catalog/jhm-lightweight-flywheel-and-clutch-combo-b7-rs4-pressure-plate-for-b7-a4-20t-p-1257.html

We use this same Pressure Plate, Stage 4 Disc, and similar Flywheel design in our 10sec B5 S4!

Let's not forget that APR...the leader in reliability is now using JHM clutches in its 10 second RS4....Maybe there is reason why they decided to not go with Clutchmasters....or Southbend, or spec...Maybe...I mean they are APR and generally have good reason behind their decisions.

[Jake@JHM]

Let's not forget that APR...the leader in reliability is now using JHM clutches in its 10 second RS4....Maybe there is reason why they decided to not go with Clutchmasters....or Southbend, or spec...Maybe...I mean they are APR and generally have good reason behind their decisions.

They do use our clutch kits in the RS4.

[passatg60]

I wouldnt say APR are leaders in reliability. I have 3 regular customers w/ their stage 3 kits and battling exhaust leaks on those setups is a full time affair... I normally dont deal with other company's product but they are good people and it does keep us busy :)

Anyhow, we have been sidetracked just a touch with maintenance issues which have been preventing us from moving forward. Here are the S3 and stock injectors that they will be replacing...

http://www.pagparts.com/images/akeem_40.jpg

I'm sure these following pics are very familiar to you guys

Cyl 1
http://www.pagparts.com/images/akeem_42.jpg

Cyl 2
http://www.pagparts.com/images/akeem_43.jpg

Cyl 3
http://www.pagparts.com/images/akeem_44.jpg

Cyl 4
http://www.pagparts.com/images/akeem_41.jpg

A couple of hours of cleaning and...

Cyl 1
http://www.pagparts.com/images/akeem_46.jpg

Cyl 2
http://www.pagparts.com/images/akeem_47.jpg

Cyl 3
http://www.pagparts.com/images/akeem_45.jpg

Cyl 4 is just more of the same... Pic was fubar'ed...

Waiting on RS4 valve to button the intake back together and possibly machining out a meth adapter if I find some time tomorrow... Gotta get back to project Jetta GLI-R and spec'ing an R32 turbo engine on the stand...

[drumnjuny]

I'm actually having my mechanic installing an FX400 8-puck next week. My Vast stage 3 burned out at the drag strip on me.

Best price:

http://lightningmotorsports.com/i-1924418.aspx?gclid=CPDsq8W0s78CFQODaQodzjUAHA

when i visit next i want to feel your clutch haha.

[viperdsa]

Quick question about the v-band fitting on the manifold. Is it still a Tial style v-band or for the efr kits is it going to be efr style with just a flat mating surface?

Reference:

EFR v-band left, Tial v-band right

https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/t1.0-9/p600x600/10377428_10152495435247527_7280042560885205952_n.j pg

[passatg60]

The iial is actually on the left and EFR on the right. I like the tial vband better. I've worked with large locking rings and small sealing surface and not a big fan of it. The manifold and turbo are currently equipped with the tial style

[passatg60]

Still waiting on a few things to come in before buttoning this up.

While we're waiting, decided to finish a few things before rounding out the project for now...

Had a meth adapter laying around that I made but never used so why not?
http://www.pagparts.com/images/akeem_49.jpg

All the lines are underneath which makes it tidy up in the bay...
http://www.pagparts.com/images/akeem_50.jpg

Its about all you see from up top...
http://www.pagparts.com/images/akeem_51.jpg

Normally, we ship a barbed connection for the coolant feed pipe to line but since this is an in-house project...
http://www.pagparts.com/images/akeem_52.jpg

Cat-Delete pipe bolted to existing downpipe...
http://www.pagparts.com/images/akeem_53.jpg

[passatg60]

Tomorrow will finally be D-Day. Just need to tighten up a few things, add some vac bungs and fill fluids. We will be swinging it over early tomorrow... finally. Its been a little over two weeks and 3x in-house full on projects for waterfest hasnt been helping matters...

Here is the engine shot w/ a few loose ends still...yes, some of the clamps are loose :)
http://www.pagparts.com/images/akeem_55.jpg

Cover and ram air duct installed
http://www.pagparts.com/images/akeem_56.jpg

[Salt n Peppa]

Wow. That looks oem to me. Can't wait to see some prices!

Sent from Thunderpants Headquarters

[Firefox250]

Great Job passatg60! Any chance we could see some videos?

When do you plan on throwing on a 7163? Geoff from Full-Race is talking with Borg Warner about making a .64 A/R just fyi.

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2394879&page=57

[passatg60]

Sorry that its just a teaser short vid but size constraints prevent me from transferring larger files through my phone atm. I'm sure the owner will be taking better vids and logs once its ready for that.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOo5ZOkAiEk&feature=youtu.be

As for the 7163, I may scratch that one as I was doing the turbine plots and dont think its any better then my billet 71R which is what I'm most likely going to set up with a Garrett chra and my housing. Sorry for the teeter tottering but I do like Garrett's track record with us in terms of reliability and the nice compactness. I can upgrade the turbine and comp at will on the Garrett product so you can expect to see some interesting wheel combos utilizing Garrett's chra's and our custom wheels/housings

Here is our 7 blade 5935R that we provide to ppl that are looking to make 600+whp with our custom contoured Garrett T04S cover

http://www.pagparts.com/images/5935r_stuff.jpg

And here is our 71BB wheel

http://www.pagparts.com/images/71B-SS_3.JPG

[passatg60]

The vehicle is together and there is just a little misfire that needs to be diagnosed but drives good on the base file otherwise. I'll have vids of the car shortly when the owner has the time to bring the vehicle back. But took a little log of it for a very brief 2nd gear pull and there is absolutely no need for twin scroll housings on this turbo. The meat of the log at wot in 2nd gear 2ND GEAR!...

RPM Boost (PSI)

1720 1.90
1920 2.47
2080 2.90
2280 3.48
2480 4.50
2760 6.10
3040 8.27
3280 11.61
3600 15.95

[mec]

The vehicle is together and there is just a little misfire that needs to be diagnosed but drives good on the base file otherwise. I'll have vids of the car shortly when the owner has the time to bring the vehicle back. But took a little log of it for a very brief 2nd gear pull and there is absolutely no need for twin scroll housings on this turbo. The meat of the log at wot in 2nd gear 2ND GEAR!...

RPM Boost (PSI)

1720 1.90
1920 2.47
2080 2.90
2280 3.48
2480 4.50
2760 6.10
3040 8.27
3280 11.61
3600 15.95

Pretty impressive stuff! Can you post a third gear wot run? Who is tuning it?

[passatg60]

Pretty impressive stuff! Can you post a third gear wot run? Who is tuning it?

We will be tuning it using Eurodyne Maestro. When the car comes back, we will do a 3rd gear pull at low boost. This thing comes on very early. I was a bit surprised how fast this thing comes on for a turbo this size to be honest. Our manifolds are flow optimized so it may help some. I have a feeling 3rd gear is going to be pretty insane. I may reconsider the 7163...

[mec]

We will be tuning it using Eurodyne Maestro. When the car comes back, we will do a 3rd gear pull at low boost. This things comes on very early. I was a bit surprised how fast this thing comes on for a turbo this size to be honest. Our manifolds are flow optimized so it may help some. I have a feeling 3rd gear is going to be pretty insane

crazy! looking forward to it

[Firefox250]

What is low boost set to? With my set up what would youput high boost to?

JetMech the FX400 is a completely different feel with very little engagement point.
I'm having to relearn how to drive my car. I'm still breaking in the clutch.

[mec]

What is low boost set to? With my set up what would youput high boost to?

JetMech the FX400 is a completely different feel with very little engagement point.
I'm having to relearn how to drive my car. I'm still breaking in the clutch.

When someone says low boost it generally means wastegate, usually 14-17lbs, alternatively low boost can also mean light duty cycle. The n75 is being utilized but just moderately. High boost can be a wide range as well, but its all about where you want to run your car.

Every extra psi you run your car it, you need to be prepared for. For example lets say you want to run 30 psi, you need to consider the worst case scenario, lets say one scenario is a misfire at 30 psi.....that's going to set you back one connecting rod and will tear your block in half (downside to having a 3.5mm thick cast block. So you need upgraded rods. If you want to run 30 psi you also need to consider that the air coming out of your turbo is going to be fire, an intercooler will bring the temps down, but at 30 psi you are going to see 10*+(celcius) from ambient. So you need to consider that you will want some metahnol injection to bring down those IAT's, balance out some knock.

So anyway to answer your question, you set the boost to whatever you want, depends on the turbo, depends on the supporting mods, depends on engine internals. A lot of people are starting to say the EFR doesn't like high boost....idk....I have no experience with them. But I recommend 30 psi, 30 psi feels like you just got donkey kicked, its a slap to the face and it wakes you right up, It makes girls scream if they are in the car, it brings you to life, It makes you want to drop into the next gear and rev it out. But again it all depends on what turbo choice you go with.


And yeah the fx400 has terrible engagement, no marcel+ meh ceramic material, its a motorsports clutch first and a comfort clutch second.

[passatg60]

Yes, basically, WG pressure as of now. All kits will come w/ a set preload and spring (depending on what actuator one decides to go with). On this particular car, we have it set to 1 bar base pressure with a very altered, almost zero'ed out boost duty map. Once we deal with the rest of the fueling, we will dial it up to whatever. I dont think we'll need to get to 30 to really wake this turbo up but we probably will be getting up there. First intial impressions is that it seems to spool way earlier then the gtx2867 and due to the better exhaust housing and bigger turbine, I would gather it probably will flow better up top

[passatg60]

This is a 3rd gear pull on an unmodified file with very conservative timing

http://www.pagparts.com/images/efr6758_3rd_gear_pull.jpg

[viperdsa]

That looks like a lot of fun

[mec]

Peak boost by 3700? seems laggy....doesn't it? I thought the efr's were supposed to spool up quick. I'm at terrible air density and I make full boost by 3800 on a gtx2867.

I mean its marginally smaller than the 6758, but you are at sea level almost, with what I had believed to be a better turbo....hmmmm have you given any thought to twin scroll 6758 kits?

[mec]

Cool thing is that it holds through 6k rpms...have you tested it to 7k or 8k? I run 66% duty cycle up at 7000 RPM's at 30 psi and it holds boost perfectly, So there should be plenty of room for the 6758 even if it has a weak wastegate canister....

This is pretty exciting, it looks like you've put quite a lot of work into this kit, and like its a beast, I'm just looking to see how hard you can push this beast :)

[viperdsa]

It doesn't seem that laggy. It is still basically the same size as a 3071R

[mec]

It doesn't seem that laggy. It is still basically the same size as a 3071R

yeah but the 6758 and 2867 are very similar sized
http://www.mediafire.com/conv/562689b9bc23cc1e70bee7ccebfab0302acbc26b2b5c73f9e9 aa3252a17ba85b6g.jpg

[passatg60]

tough crowd haha. I can call this setup many things but laggy isnt one of them. I've set up a few gtx2867's and, although I think they are nice, this thing seems to pack quite a bit of torque and seems to hit a bit harder. This thing has a 5mm larger wheel so I'm sure its superior in terms of backpressure. I didnt take it to 7k as we are test driving this thing in 3rd roughly 5mins outside of Manhattan NYC. But there isnt a doubt in my mind that it will hold through redline. Traffic was coming on fast and I had to slow down. I dont think a twin scroll would spool this thing faster as you're going to be running a .85ar which will compromise some top end. One thing that most ppl dont realize is that the sooner you hit boost the sooner you run out of power. Twin scroll is nice on certain turbos but I wouldnt run it on this one. Check out FP's new turbos, they made a housing after running those MHI twin scroll EVO housings for years. Guess what? They are single scroll which they tested out on their already good Blacks and Reds and made ALOT more power without a ton of spool penalties

[mec]

tough crowd haha. I can call this setup many things but laggy isnt one of them. I've set up a few gtx2867's and, although I think they are nice, this thing seems to pack quite a bit of torque and seems to hit a bit harder. This thing has a 5mm larger wheel so I'm sure its superior in terms of backpressure. I didnt take it to 7k as we are test driving this thing in 3rd roughly 5mins outside of Manhattan NYC. But there isnt a doubt in my mind that it will hold through redline. Traffic was coming on fast and I had to slow down. I dont think a twin scroll would spool this thing faster as you're going to be running a .85ar which will compromise some top end. One thing that most ppl dont realize is that the sooner you hit boost the sooner you run out of power. Twin scroll is nice on certain turbos but I wouldnt run it on this one. Check out FP's new turbos, they made a housing after running those MHI twin scroll EVO housings for years. Guess what? They are single scroll which they tested out on their already good Blacks and Reds and made ALOT more power without a ton of spool penalties

lol, well you're a good sport. I'm sorry if I came across harshly. I just had much higher hopes for the efr6758....is it going on the dyno? or hitting the quarter mile? Maybe it just looks weak in logs.

[mec]

Also its hitting 22psi on wastegate pressure? damn, thats one hell of a wastegate.

[Firefox250]

You have me sold. I'll hopefully be buying your kit in a month or two.

[passatg60]

Its on the n75 now with 14psi base. I dont know how far the OP is going to take it. The ball is in his court. I know he's going to be looking into LPFP, w/m, exhaust upgrade (the obx is a poor excuse) and a clutch. I reall dont know what ppl were expecting but a turbo this size is not going to spool like a k03/4 (although it doesnt feel much laggier lol). We will dyno it and the OP did mention E85 so we may go down that road. But for me, the car is very tame as if it came out of the factory this way. The airbox is used w/ K&N filter, the exhaust is quiet (maybe too quiet) and there is a slight release of pressure when the dual port kompact bov releases after you let off the accelerator. Then when you hammer it, it comes on hard and quick. I would drive a car like this with no compromises everyday. It is that liveable. I had a buddy with a 28RS eliminator in his B6 help me take logs and the first thing he says...'damn this thing comes on quick...' This is also the OP's first turbo upgrade. You can ask him how he likes the response

[mec]

Its on the n75 now with 14psi base. I dont know how far the OP is going to take it. The ball is in his court. I know he's going to be looking into LPFP, w/m, exhaust upgrade (the obx is a poor excuse) and a clutch. I reall dont know what ppl were expecting but a turbo this size is not going to spool like a k03/4 (although it doesnt feel much laggier lol). We will dyno it and the OP did mention E85 so we may go down that road. But for me, the car is very tame as if it came out of the factory this way. The airbox is used w/ K&N filter, the exhaust is quiet (maybe too quiet) and there is a slight release of pressure when the dual port kompact bov releases after you let off the accelerator. Then when you hammer it, it comes on hard and quick. I would drive a car like this with no compromises everyday. It is that liveable. I had a buddy with a 28RS eliminator in his B6 help me take logs and the first thing he says...'damn this thing comes on quick...' This is also the OP's first turbo upgrade. You can ask him how he likes the response

I understand lag, I mean I run a big turbo, but I just had believed that an efr 6758 would outspool a gtx2867r...But if you hit peak boost at 3700, then If I bought your kit, I would be in the low 4000's until I got into peak boost....Don't get me wrong I am in love with your work and I can respect it, I guess I am just let down by the spool on the 6758

[passatg60]

i very much doubt it would touch 4k/20psi up in elevation. This things outspools a 2867 hands down. I love garrett product so dont take that statement lightly. Remember also, this is a base file that has been untouched. We will also be testing a cone filter on the intake side as well as an upgraded exhaust in the future. This is only the beginning and thanks for the complement [up]

[mec]

i very much doubt it would touch 4k/20psi up in elevation. This things outspools a 2867 hands down. I love garrett product so dont take that statement lightly. Remember also, this is a base file that has been untouched. We will also be testing a cone filter on the intake side as well as an upgraded exhaust in the future. This is only the beginning and thanks for the complement [up]

Interesting....I'm in Denver, and we are notorious for our high DA, so seeing a gtx2867 spool at 3800 doesn't seem like a shock to me. I have confirmed this now on another gtx2867 car so I know its not tuning related.....but....my big thing....is that I was really contemplating switching to a 6758, but seeing your sea level numbers....I'm nervous that it will spool far toooo late up here....Of course...if you wanted to set up a high altitude tester.....we could arrange something :)

[mec]

After seeing this I guess you are right.


http://youtu.be/Qg4nbdHFsTE

I guess I overestimated what it can do.

From what I've found all in Lb/min flow
Gtx2867 = 47
efr6758 = 49
gtx3071 = 57
efr7163 = 60

No I had originally talked to a few shops and they agreed at my altitude that a gtx3071 would have far worse boost threshold than I wanted. so I scratched that off the list, and then I've been waiting to see what an efr 6758 could do. With all the gadgets and gizmos it has I was thinking it would have a lower boost threshold than my gtx and flow more.....but I'm thinking now that at my altitude its going to spool even later than my gtx....I'm stuck I suppose until someone invents a faster spooling turbo lol.

[viperdsa]

6758 flows 53lbs/min

[mec]

6758 flows 53lbs/min

according to one source. literally everywhere else it flow 49 lbs

[passatg60]

I believed they amended the comp flow rate from its previous estimation. You have to understand, every source just plagiarizes for each other at that particular time. 53lbs is the current flow rate. But you cannot just go by comp flow rates. You can attach a 35R comp to a T28 turbine and boast a 65lb comp wheel. But will it achieve these levels with the turbine? I'm using this as an extreme example as I feel the major difference in this whole equation is the turbine side. I'll always put the importance of the turbine side first as the relationship b/w turbo and engine begins here and ultimately ends here. There are a certain set of rules I adhere to when I set up a turbo system and alot of it has very little to do with how fast the turbo is spooling but how well the engine/turbo is allowed to flow with the allotted power one is trying to achieve. I find this turbo superior in other ways to the gtx2867 because A) I feel it flows better on the back end B) It retains very good spool manners with a far more aggressive comp trim (49.7 vs 53.9mm inducer. I believe the gtx2867 would be surge prone with this kind of trim) c) Better designed turbine housing and volute due to the taller wheel (the garrett IWG housing is crap imo). Here are a couple of pics I took back when I first got the 6758 compared to a 30R wheel...

http://www.pagparts.com/images/efr_5.JPG

http://www.pagparts.com/images/efr_6.JPG

Pix are a little skewed as the 30R is the bigger wheel of course but its much closer in size then the T28 NS111 in the 2867. The 3067 is the more interesting turbo to me :)

[viperdsa]

according to one source. literally everywhere else it flow 49 lbs

Well two sources. Full-Race and the BW matchbot

[aluthman]

Well two sources. Full-Race and the BW matchbot

I'd consider those two sources to be legit.

[viperdsa]

Given that this is a .64a/r, housing how much of a difference do you think there would be in spool compared to the .72a/r housings you are planning on doing?

[passatg60]

Given that this is a .64a/r, housing how much of a difference do you think there would be in spool compared to the .72a/r housings you are planning on doing?

Well, I would think the 6758 would have very good results with the .72ar from what i've seen with the .64ar. I am getting in a 7163 in a few days to test out on my car with external gate.

[gmx]

Interested in EGT logs for this manifold and housing.

[viziers]

Interested in EGT logs for this manifold and housing.

For comparison my EGT's never go above 1000f -1200f max and that is getting on the gas.



vizi

[passatg60]

Pre or post turbo? I would assume post turbo as the combustion temps are usually hotter then that coming out of the ports at wot

[ericpaulyoung]

Pre or post turbo? I would assume post turbo as the combustion temps are usually hotter then that coming out of the ports at wot

^ this

If you are only hitting 1000 degrees at WOT, then you are not making power, i.e., burning fuel is what makes juice, and that makes heat. The more power you make, the more the EGT goes up. This is true even for a 100% properly tuned and setup car. If you take that 100% perfect car and push more power, your temps will go up. 1000 degrees is not indicative of much power.

epy

[passatg60]

on a standard street vehicle, I usually tune for around 1650f but i do see 1800f on setups that are really pushed... Once you see that, its time to step up to a larger turbine :)

[viziers]

Pre or post turbo? I would assume post turbo as the combustion temps are usually hotter then that coming out of the ports at wot


Sorry, yes post turbo. the sensor sits roughly 2" from the hotside of the turbo....



vizi

[ericpaulyoung]

on a standard street vehicle, I usually tune for around 1650f but i do see 1800f on setups that are really pushed... Once you see that, its time to step up to a larger turbine :)

Good info. From my reading, I was seeing most people aim for a target of 1600 degrees, but the info is mostly for V8 and big diesels, so it is good to know that is also used in our cars.

epy

[passatg60]

Good info. From my reading, I was seeing most people aim for a target of 1600 degrees, but the info is mostly for V8 and big diesels, so it is good to know that is also used in our cars.

epy

Yes, its mostly for mechanical limits on aluminum, exhaust valves and such. Across platforms, this doesnt really change. On a side note, EGT's can be very subjective in terms of AFR targets, timing, cam phasing and even where the probe is located. Its not an exact science so you cannot completely rely on it. It is good to use it as ONE of your tuning aids.

[viziers]

The tune on my car is a mild one but not too mild obviously as its pushing 373 to all 4 wheels... Hopefully when Absolute Automotive gets the tuning close too his target of 600awhp on his golf r build I will be able to get that tune in a slightly detuned format....


The tune was originally created for longevity... Originally, but now has changed as I'm bored with the HP it has now.....



vizi

[gmx]

Yes post turbo and not just 1 or 2 gear pulls.
I'd like to see how suitable this combination would be for a car that would see circuit use especially in regards to BW's 1740 'limit'.

[passatg60]

Are you referring to the 6758 or 7163?

[Firefox250]

Either would be awesome for some inside information.

Derrek played with the Matchbot numbers. How accurate is this Arnold?

http://www.turbos.bwauto.com//aftermarket/matchbot/index.html#version=1.3&displacement=2&CID=122.04&altitude=5000&baro=12.666&aat=75&turboconfig=1&compressor=67x80&pt1_rpm=2000&pt1_ve=85&pt1_boost=2&pt1_ie=99&pt1_filres=0.08&pt1_ipd=0.2&pt1_mbp=0.5&pt1_ce=66&pt1_te=75&pt1_egt=1550&pt1_ter=1.14&pt1_pw=39.46&pt1_bsfc=0.43&pt1_afr=11.5&pt1_wts=300&pt1_wd=83&pt1_wd2=74&pt1_wrsin=69033&pt2_rpm=3000&pt2_ve=95&pt2_boost=17.5&pt2_ie=95&pt2_filres=0.1&pt2_ipd=0.2&pt2_mbp=1&pt2_ce=70&pt2_te=73&pt2_egt=1600&pt2_ter=1.77&pt2_pw=13.1&pt2_bsfc=0.45&pt2_afr=11.5&pt2_wts=320&pt2_wd=83&pt2_wd2=74&pt2_wrsin=73635&pt3_rpm=4000&pt3_ve=100&pt3_boost=24&pt3_ie=95&pt3_filres=0.12&pt3_ipd=0.3&pt3_mbp=1.3&pt3_ce=74&pt3_te=72&pt3_egt=1650&pt3_ter=2.31&pt3_pw=27.68&pt3_bsfc=0.48&pt3_afr=11.5&pt3_wts=340&pt3_wd=83&pt3_wd2=74&pt3_wrsin=78238&pt4_rpm=5000&pt4_ve=100&pt4_boost=30&pt4_ie=92&pt4_filres=0.15&pt4_ipd=0.4&pt4_mbp=1.5&pt4_ce=76&pt4_te=71&pt4_egt=1650&pt4_ter=2.95&pt4_pw=33.36&pt4_bsfc=0.5&pt4_afr=11.5&pt4_wts=368&pt4_wd=83&pt4_wd2=74&pt4_wrsin=84681&pt5_rpm=6000&pt5_ve=105&pt5_boost=28&pt5_ie=90&pt5_filres=0.18&pt5_ipd=0.5&pt5_mbp=1.8&pt5_ce=72&pt5_te=70&pt5_egt=1650&pt5_ter=3.27&pt5_pw=36.73&pt5_bsfc=0.52&pt5_afr=11.5&pt5_wts=400&pt5_wd=83&pt5_wd2=74&pt5_wrsin=92044&pt6_rpm=7000&pt6_ve=105&pt6_boost=24&pt6_ie=90&pt6_filres=0.2&pt6_ipd=0.6&pt6_mbp=2&pt6_ce=66&pt6_te=70&pt6_egt=1650&pt6_ter=3.32&pt6_pw=38.24&pt6_bsfc=0.55&pt6_afr=11.5&pt6_wts=400&pt6_wd=83&pt6_wd2=74&pt6_wrsin=92044&

[derrek]

Either would be awesome for some inside information.

Derrek played with the Matchbot numbers. How accurate is this Arnold?

http://www.turbos.bwauto.com//aftermarket/matchbot/index.html#version=1.3&displacement=2&CID=122.04&altitude=5000&baro=12.666&aat=75&turboconfig=1&compressor=67x80&pt1_rpm=2000&pt1_ve=85&pt1_boost=2&pt1_ie=99&pt1_filres=0.08&pt1_ipd=0.2&pt1_mbp=0.5&pt1_ce=66&pt1_te=75&pt1_egt=1550&pt1_ter=1.14&pt1_pw=39.46&pt1_bsfc=0.43&pt1_afr=11.5&pt1_wts=300&pt1_wd=83&pt1_wd2=74&pt1_wrsin=69033&pt2_rpm=3000&pt2_ve=95&pt2_boost=17.5&pt2_ie=95&pt2_filres=0.1&pt2_ipd=0.2&pt2_mbp=1&pt2_ce=70&pt2_te=73&pt2_egt=1600&pt2_ter=1.77&pt2_pw=13.1&pt2_bsfc=0.45&pt2_afr=11.5&pt2_wts=320&pt2_wd=83&pt2_wd2=74&pt2_wrsin=73635&pt3_rpm=4000&pt3_ve=100&pt3_boost=24&pt3_ie=95&pt3_filres=0.12&pt3_ipd=0.3&pt3_mbp=1.3&pt3_ce=74&pt3_te=72&pt3_egt=1650&pt3_ter=2.31&pt3_pw=27.68&pt3_bsfc=0.48&pt3_afr=11.5&pt3_wts=340&pt3_wd=83&pt3_wd2=74&pt3_wrsin=78238&pt4_rpm=5000&pt4_ve=100&pt4_boost=30&pt4_ie=92&pt4_filres=0.15&pt4_ipd=0.4&pt4_mbp=1.5&pt4_ce=76&pt4_te=71&pt4_egt=1650&pt4_ter=2.95&pt4_pw=33.36&pt4_bsfc=0.5&pt4_afr=11.5&pt4_wts=368&pt4_wd=83&pt4_wd2=74&pt4_wrsin=84681&pt5_rpm=6000&pt5_ve=105&pt5_boost=28&pt5_ie=90&pt5_filres=0.18&pt5_ipd=0.5&pt5_mbp=1.8&pt5_ce=72&pt5_te=70&pt5_egt=1650&pt5_ter=3.27&pt5_pw=36.73&pt5_bsfc=0.52&pt5_afr=11.5&pt5_wts=400&pt5_wd=83&pt5_wd2=74&pt5_wrsin=92044&pt6_rpm=7000&pt6_ve=105&pt6_boost=24&pt6_ie=90&pt6_filres=0.2&pt6_ipd=0.6&pt6_mbp=2&pt6_ce=66&pt6_te=70&pt6_egt=1650&pt6_ter=3.32&pt6_pw=38.24&pt6_bsfc=0.55&pt6_afr=11.5&pt6_wts=400&pt6_wd=83&pt6_wd2=74&pt6_wrsin=92044&

That one will get the turbo to hot an out of it's efficacy range

[gmx]

Are you referring to the 6758 or 7163?

Either

[passatg60]

Either

Will do


Derrek played with the Matchbot numbers. How accurate is this Arnold?

http://www.turbos.bwauto.com//afterm...6_wrsin=92044&

Not terrible but perhaps targeting a lower overall psi would make it a touch more efficient according to the bot. I am going to reserve my thoughts until I gather some real data when the OP is ready. Charts and plots will only get you in the ballpark.

I was doing some digging on what these twin scrolls do on a 4cyl that is somewhat similar to ours and I found a twin scroll 7670 on internal gate on a 2.3L EVO boost graph on E85.... Notice the green plot. While its very nice, I noticed that the internal gate struggles to hold it up top across the rev range and am wondering if it is the actuator struggling or the housing reaching a point. Its impressive but he is on a rather large 4 banger on a charged up E85 tune...

http://roadraceengineering.com/dynapack/dynos/DenkersEVO_BorgWarner-Dyno/Robi%20Denkers%20Red%20RS-boost.jpg

[passatg60]

Eagle has landed
http://www.pagparts.com/images/B7_P_0.jpg

Turbine wheel up top or exducer portion
http://www.pagparts.com/images/B7_P_1.jpg

Here is the 'mix flow' portion of the wheel observed by its profile
http://www.pagparts.com/images/B7_P_2.jpg

GT30 wheel and 63 wheel comparo profile
http://www.pagparts.com/images/B7_P_3.jpg

Exducer comparo
http://www.pagparts.com/images/B7_P_4.jpg

Here is a NS111 T28 comparo (found on the 2867)
http://www.pagparts.com/images/B7_P_6.jpg

This is the actual base diameter of the turbine wheel on the 7163
http://www.pagparts.com/images/B7_P_7.jpg

This was a bit hard to hold but the 63mm diameter that BW is boasting on this wheel is just the apex of the mix flow wheel
http://www.pagparts.com/images/B7_P_9.jpg

Here is the exducer portion of the wheel. This, I feel is the most interesting aspect of the wheel
http://www.pagparts.com/images/B7_P_8.jpg

30R inducer
http://www.pagparts.com/images/B7_P_10.jpg

30R exducer
http://www.pagparts.com/images/B7_P_11.jpg

[viperdsa]

Awesome, look forward to seeing results for that.

As far as that boost graph goes. That was actually on an externally gated 7670 here is the thread for it. That boost graph is on the second page.

http://forums.evolutionm.net/evo-dyno-tuning-results/573459-borgwarner-twin-scroll-7670-dyno-graph.html

[passatg60]

Awesome, look forward to seeing results for that.

As far as that boost graph goes. That was actually on an externally gated 7670 here is the thread for it. That boost graph is on the second page.

http://forums.evolutionm.net/evo-dyno-tuning-results/573459-borgwarner-twin-scroll-7670-dyno-graph.html

Then its definitely the housing or perhaps the wheel

[passatg60]

Found another interesting one...

Same STI swapped from single to twin scroll
http://i.imgur.com/KFrRuW8.jpg

QUOTE:
"This car is an SCCA Solo car so the owner was looking for more down low and slightly better transient out of low speed turns - boost on the dyno peak numbers are a little high but they both make 34~ psi in the logs peak but the slightly more restrictive t4 housing wouldn't do anymore up top power or boost wise - however at 2800rpm it is up 60lb/ft of torque over the vband housing"

QUOTE:
"I should have noted - on the vband boost was controlled with a TiAL 44mm and on the ts housing it has twin TiAL 38 gates- external dump on both using a grimmspeed 3 port. The boost was tapered intentionally as we saw no increase in power from holding more up top only increased intake air temps which we attributed to back pressure- edit- I should also note we welded the flapper shut so no leaking or blowing open could occur"

[mec]

Found another interesting one...

Same STI swapped from single to twin scroll
http://i.imgur.com/KFrRuW8.jpg

QUOTE:
"This car is an SCCA Solo car so the owner was looking for more down low and slightly better transient out of low speed turns - boost on the dyno peak numbers are a little high but they both make 34~ psi in the logs peak but the slightly more restrictive t4 housing wouldn't do anymore up top power or boost wise - however at 2800rpm it is up 60lb/ft of torque over the vband housing"

QUOTE:
"I should have noted - on the vband boost was controlled with a TiAL 44mm and on the ts housing it has twin TiAL 38 gates- external dump on both using a grimmspeed 3 port. The boost was tapered intentionally as we saw no increase in power from holding more up top only increased intake air temps which we attributed to back pressure- edit- I should also note we welded the flapper shut so no leaking or blowing open could occur"

Seems like a lot of these EFR's do this, they make tons of torque at 4k, then they plummet, this one loses like 260 tq by redline.....that seems pretty bad.

Also is the assumption in these charts that the TS actually had no benefit to the 7163? Looks like the housing doesn't actually make a significant impact to power or spool.

[mec]

I'm not sure of the math behind dynos but it seems like cars that spool quickly and make tons or torque make little horsepower. Meaning by 4k there is such a large deviation by the amount of horsepower being made and the amount of torque that in order for the dyno to still have intersecting lines at 5252 RPM, the torque curve has to shoot down hard. The steep angle makes you lose tons of torque by redline. Meanwhile if torque is decreasing at a greater rate than RPM is climbing then you are not able to make more horsewpower you stall at a certain level past that line.

Again this is all from looking at the chart, I'm hoping you can chime in and give some guidance if you don't mind.

[passatg60]

Well, its always been this way. This part of it is simple logic. In order to energize a turbine is to fill up volume as efficiently as possible while generating load. Twin scrolls, by nature, does this more efficiently by design on comparable housings. The penalty being that while you'll peak faster, you'll lose torque/power at comparable rate. This means you cant have your cake and eat it too as the twin scroll crowd will try to lead you to believe. By the graphs, you can see that it does indeed build torque earlier under 3k. They are flowing at somewhat equal terms by 3.4-5k and the separation by 5k where the single scroll begins to hold more torque and make more power. As for the tq drop, its normal. This is not a large turbo for a 2.5L and it probably struggles a bit upstairs on this kind of VE. Its also an awd vehicle like ours so drivetrain will act on the torque curve as well.

[mec]

Well, its always been this way. This part of it is simple logic. In order to energize a turbine is to fill up volume as efficiently as possible while generating load. Twin scrolls, by nature, does this more efficiently by design on comparable housings. The penalty being that while you'll peak faster, you'll lose torque/power at comparable rate. This means you cant have your cake and eat it too as the twin scroll crowd will try to lead you to believe. By the graphs, you can see that it does indeed build torque earlier under 3k. They are flowing at somewhat equal terms by 3.4-5k and the separation by 5k where the single scroll begins to hold more torque and make more power. As for the tq drop, its normal. This is not a large turbo for a 2.5L and it probably struggles a bit upstairs on this kind of VE. Its also an awd vehicle like ours so drivetrain will act on the torque curve as well.

That makes perfect sense. That's for the explanation

[rkesh88]

Any updates on this?

[passatg60]

Since the OP hasnt addressed the LPFP mods, he's been taking it easy at 21psi everyday. As for the 7163, it will have to wait a little bit til some projects and some production is finished. OP's car is a very fun ride. Very pleased with the power delivery. Once the fueling and clutch is upgraded, really looking forward to seeing its potential. He's already getting low pressure fueling codes so he's aware it will need to be addressed sooner then later.

[rkesh88]

Sounds so good. What about this in kit form from pagparts. When can we see that?

[passatg60]

I will add them to the site shortly. They are available and built to order.

[Gli08]

Man, all this EFR talk has me intrigued! Very nice build OP, i'll be following this for updates.

Arnold, how does the 7163 compare to the GTX35r?



(Haven't logged on here in in months and the first thread I go in referenced my car, I think its a sign...)

[passatg60]

You'd have to go with something larger. The 35R turbine will put a beating on the 63 turbine in terms of overall flow. The powerband on the 63 would probably be impressive but I would compare the 7163 more to the 30R as far as what it will do upstairs. I am in the midst of tuning out a 1.8T Jetta GLI with my new 5935R and forgot how much of a beast the 35R wheel really is. These guys here seem to like low end torque which makes for a fun daily but I think you're a bit beyond this stage...

[mec]

Gtx35.....wow. When does that hit peak boost? And how much boost? Seems like it would hit at 5 maybe 5.5k, that's too short of a powerband for me. It's probably a solid drag turbo though. I think the 7163 or an hta3076 would be as big as I would ever go on this engine. Gtx35 I bet would be a beast on a Vw 2.5.....anyone? Engine swap and huge turbo upgrade?

[drumnjuny]

the APR TTRS kit is a GTX35

[ericpaulyoung]

Arnold, please correct me if I am wrong. For the 35R on a 2 liter engine, are the GTX and GT effectively the same. It seems the gains in pressure or peak flow both being past what a 2L street driven car can achieve. The GT35R will already push 30 psi and close to 70 lbs. Also the GTX for the 35 actually has not as good of a surge line vs the GT.


http://www.atpturbo.com/root/releases/images/release111110/GTX3582RandGT3582Roverlap.jpg

[drumnjuny]

their is a 3576R i think

[mec]

their is a 3576R i think

There is. Generally when someone just throws out "28R" it's just assumed to be the biggest in the lineup.

28r = 2871
30r = 3076
35r = 3582

But also I'm pretty sure EPY is using a 3582 in his build that's probably why he posted that chart. 70lbs/min is no joke!

[ericpaulyoung]

their is a 3576R i think

I have read it is a mismatch turbo. The 3076 is a good pair of turbine/compressor, but the 3576 is not. The 3582 flows great but can have serious surge issues, which is why I asked about the GTX moving the surge line the wrong way. I don't have experience with it or have I read much on it either so the map may not represent how it performs in real life. Maps don't always tell the whole story
EPY

[ericpaulyoung]

Also, all the PPT work I have read on here and other places looks consistently high quality, so I was hoping to hear what Arnold thinks of the GTX in the 35 size for our platform.

[Gli08]

I have read it is a mismatch turbo. The 3076 is a good pair of turbine/compressor, but the 3576 is not.
EPY

Actually I think its the other way around. With the x76 wheel being larger then the gt76 wheel the 30r hot side wasn't able to keep up in the higher boost levels, so garrett introduced the 3576. this was my understanding when the 3576 was initially released.

When the 3576 spools up it puts a smile on your face

[passatg60]

I have had the GTX3582R in a 3.2L VR6 and an RX7. I've never run it on a 4cyl motor as of yet. One will be going in a longitudinal A4Q shortly. I do have some back to back experience w/ the cast/billet wheels. The GTX does spool later and in colder/denser conditions can get a bit surge-prone as does the cast 35R in smallish turbine housings. For your average build where you're not playing around w/ engine VE's, a 35R framed turbo would be considered large. But who runs a 4 banger with a 35R and doesnt alter things? For all intents and purposes, the cast 35R is enough for most. Having said this, you can max it out with a strung out 4cyl with race gas and the appropriate mods. This is where the GTX comes in. It will make almost 100whp more when all is said and done.

[ericpaulyoung]

Actually I think its the other way around. With the x76 wheel being larger then the gt76 wheel the 30r hot side wasn't able to keep up in the higher boost levels, so garrett introduced the 3576. this was my understanding when the 3576 was initially released.

When the 3576 spools up it puts a smile on your face


Ya, I might have it backwards. I will need to dig through a bunch of old JDM builds and see if I can find the comparisons I was remembering.

EPY

[ericpaulyoung]

I have had the GTX3582R in a 3.2L VR6 and an RX7. I've never run it on a 4cyl motor as of yet. One will be going in a longitudinal A4Q shortly. I do have some back to back experience w/ the cast/billet wheels. The GTX does spool later and in colder/denser conditions can get a bit surge-prone as does the cast 35R in smallish turbine housings. For your average build where you're not playing around w/ engine VE's, a 35R framed turbo would be considered large. But who runs a 4 banger with a 35R and doesnt alter things? For all intents and purposes, the cast 35R is enough for most. Having said this, you can max it out with a strung out 4cyl with race gas and the appropriate mods. This is where the GTX comes in. It will make almost 100whp more when all is said and done.

Interesting. Thank you and please post up how the A4Q build goes.
EPY

[Firefox250]

Any updates on any builds Arnold?

[passatg60]

No updates as of yet. We are trying to finish up some projects and turbo kits for various customers. I did, however, got in a twin scroll .80ar housing in for the 7163 so that may be in the cards...

[mec]

No updates as of yet. We are trying to finish up some projects and turbo kits for various customers. I did, however, got in a twin scroll .80ar housing in for the 7163 so that may be in the cards...

DO it Do it Do it.

Better question.

7163 or gtx3076?

[passatg60]

Well, I do have the 7163 but I feel the 30 would out power it up top. I like power band as much as the next guy but if most of you guys felt what an open scroll .72ar billet 30r feels like on 30psi.. I have a vid of one embarrassing a cl65 amg on a roll

[Firefox250]

Please show the vid! What's was the 30R on?

What's the difference between your GT3071 with the billet wheel and a GTX3071?

[ericpaulyoung]

Well, I do have the 7163 but I feel the 30 would out power it up top. I like power band as much as the next guy but if most of you guys felt what an open scroll .72ar billet 30r feels like on 30psi.. I have a vid of one embarrassing a cl65 amg on a roll

let's see that vid!

[mec]

Please show the vid! What's was the 30R on?

What's the difference between your GT3071 with the billet wheel and a GTX3071?

I would be interested in seeing the gtx3071 or gtx3076 vs an efr7163, i feel like either one would give the efr a run for its money.

[passatg60]

Its a street race so I will refrain but its on Instagram for all to see. As for my billet wheel, my current V3 wheel is an extended tip and exducer is 73mm's as opposed to the GTX3071R which is a 71mm. Inducer is smaller to keep it from the surge line. This is actually a development thats been ongoing for me on ,which is on its 3rd version, so I think I've been more active then Garrett or BW as far as this specific family of wheels :). It will be tough for me to test all of these turbos as my time is very limited. I will probably do the 7163 and then my 3073BB-V3. I'm sure some of my customers will also do their thing and report.

[mec]

Its a street race so I will refrain but its on Instagram for all to see. As for my billet wheel, my current V3 wheel is an extended tip and exducer is 73mm's as opposed to the GTX3071R which is a 71mm. Inducer is smaller to keep it from the surge line. This is actually a development thats been ongoing for me on ,which is on its 3rd version, so I think I've been more active then Garrett or BW as far as this specific family of wheels :). It will be tough for me to test all of these turbos as my time is very limited. I will probably do the 7163 and then my 3073BB-V3. I'm sure some of my customers will also do their thing and report.

Interesting, I wasn't aware anyone was having surge issues on the 2.0t with a 30r.

What's the process for making your own wheel, that sounds kinda crazy, its billet so I'm assuming you either CNC them or design them and CNC them at a machine shop? But I mean how do you pick a aerodynamics, blade length, height, blade count, etc etc.

[viziers]

Interesting, I wasn't aware anyone was having surge issues on the 2.0t with a 30r.

What's the process for making your own wheel, that sounds kinda crazy, its billet so I'm assuming you either CNC them or design them and CNC them at a machine shop? But I mean how do you pick a aerodynamics, blade length, height, blade count, etc etc.



This man is the kind of guy you want to build your motor as I have read some of his stuff on vortex from quite some time ago and was impressed with what he knew and has done a lot like Evan from Absolute...... Now this was going back a few years now but have known and briefly talked to him on the phone even longer ago....lol

I talked to him from when I was putting my BT items together back in 2009 I think is when I started?



vizi

[ericpaulyoung]

This man is the kind of guy you want to build your motor as I have read some of his stuff on vortex from quite some time ago and was impressed with what he knew and has done a lot like Evan from Absolute...... Now this was going back a few years now but have known and briefly talked to him on the phone even longer ago....lol

I talked to him from when I was putting my BT items together back in 2009 I think is when I started?


vizi

You mention Evan so much I wonder if you have a relationship with your tuner with an unhealthy level of intimacy. Hey man, I am not saying there is anything wrong with that.

EPY

[viziers]

You mention Evan so much I wonder if you have a relationship with your tuner with an unhealthy level of intimacy. Hey man, I am not saying there is anything wrong with that.

EPY


Just gotta give credit where credit is due....


vizi

[ericpaulyoung]

Just gotta give credit where credit is due....


vizi


Sure, sure; you gotta bro on the down low. I knew you got a deal on tuning somehow! :) j/k

[rkesh88]

IG name to see these pulls?

[mec]

IG name to see these pulls?

Just search for #pagparts

[mec]

You mention Evan so much I wonder if you have a relationship with your tuner with an unhealthy level of intimacy. Hey man, I am not saying there is anything wrong with that.

EPY

Ha it's a hombrosexual joke

[JetMech]

Hey Everyone here's my 1500mile update (actually at 1800 right now) the car has bean performing beautifuly, no major issues to report at all starts right up every morning. It docent burn oil no leaks nothing at all mechanially wrong with the car. it after fires like crazy over 5500 rpm but the tune still needs to be sorted. i reinstalled the MAF sensor to get rid of the esp light. I got this nice litle package the other day am sure some of you can guess what it is. 18353
Hopefully once i get a minute to install it ill have some nice logs and videos to show it in action. I have to say that Arnold has gone above and beyound what i expected calling periodically to check up on the car and making everything is ok months after the build was completed and i think thats what sets him apart from other shops out there. Next steps for me will a Valentine one since i get a lot of attention lately, BMP+ and clutch. I Also have some Brembo 18z laying around hoping someone finally markets rotor hoods in our offset to accept brembo rings. So yeah thats about it one happy customer here.

[seal66]

Hey Everyone here's my 1500mile update (actually at 1800 right now) the car has bean performing beautifuly, no major issues to report at all starts right up every morning. It docent burn oil no leaks nothing at all mechanially wrong with the car. it after fires like crazy over 5500 rpm but the tune still needs to be sorted. i reinstalled the MAF sensor to get rid of the esp light. I got this nice litle package the other day am sure some of you can guess what it is. 18353
Hopefully once i get a minute to install it ill have some nice logs and videos to show it in action. I have to say that Arnold has gone above and beyound what i expected calling periodically to check up on the car and making everything is ok months after the build was completed and i think thats what sets him apart from other shops out there. Next steps for me will a Valentine one since i get a lot of attention lately, BMP+ and clutch. I Also have some Brembo 18z laying around hoping someone finally markets rotor hoods in our offset to accept brembo rings. So yeah thats about it one happy customer here.
How does the car pull?

[JetMech]

Pulls great untill the after fire but it clearly has more to offer I'd say the turbo is at 30% right now


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[mec]

+1 for the new package, you're gonna love it.

+1 for BBK

+1 for Valentine.

-1 because that turbo should be running at 130%

[passatg60]

Good to hear Jet. Its not so much the tune but that the stock LPFP cannot cope. Lets get that sorted! [up]

[ericpaulyoung]

Good to hear Jet. Its not so much the tune but that the stock LPFP cannot cope. Lets get that sorted! [up]

Are you going to use a TTRS with the b7 level sender and an RS4 controller, or try to drill out the OEM pump and drop in a GLS 392 (or similar) and a check valve inline with a second controller?

epy

[ericpaulyoung]

Hey Everyone here's my 1500mile update (actually at 1800 right now) the car has bean performing beautifuly, no major issues to report at all starts right up every morning. It docent burn oil no leaks nothing at all mechanially wrong with the car. it after fires like crazy over 5500 rpm but the tune still needs to be sorted. i reinstalled the MAF sensor to get rid of the esp light. I got this nice litle package the other day am sure some of you can guess what it is. 18353
Hopefully once i get a minute to install it ill have some nice logs and videos to show it in action. I have to say that Arnold has gone above and beyound what i expected calling periodically to check up on the car and making everything is ok months after the build was completed and i think thats what sets him apart from other shops out there. Next steps for me will a Valentine one since i get a lot of attention lately, BMP+ and clutch. I Also have some Brembo 18z laying around hoping someone finally markets rotor hoods in our offset to accept brembo rings. So yeah thats about it one happy customer here.

From Poland. Must be an OEM part. I would guess the RS4 controller in a package that size.
epy

[mec]

From Poland. Must be an OEM part. I would guess the RS4 controller in a package that size.
epy

Nope, way cooler than an rs4 controller!

[Jake@JHM]

vfiz or w/e?

[seal66]

Pulls great untill the after fire but it clearly has more to offer I'd say the turbo is at 30% right now


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That's good to hear though man. I am trying to decide between the EFR 6758 and the GTX2867R or HTA Equiv

[passatg60]

Are you going to use a TTRS with the b7 level sender and an RS4 controller, or try to drill out the OEM pump and drop in a GLS 392 (or similar) and a check valve inline with a second controller?

epy

I already modified a TTRS pump to use in the B7 basket on a separate project. Not sure what to do about the controller yet. I also have done the custom basket/check valve route but I really dont want to go that route if I dont have to. Lots of work...

[drumnjuny]

vfiz is the titties! nice score

[JetMech]

finally got around to installing the VFIZ and i love it so far. proper feedback to come later. but right now if anyone would be kind enough to give the pn for those 2 t-10 screws that hold the steering column covers together it would be greatly appreciated.

[Firefox250]

Dude those screw are a pain in ass to install. I dropped one behind the cluster and was so pissed having to take out the cluster again. I'm sure Mec knows.

[JetMech]

I actually got those 2 in but I had to remove my podi gauge pod to get the cluster out and lost one of the 2 screws for that


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[mec]

I actually got those 2 in but I had to remove my podi gauge pod to get the cluster out and lost one of the 2 screws for that


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

those are t6 screws.

[passatg60]

So, to threadjack once again :), I'm drawing closer to putting the B7 under the knife and instead of using the 7163, I'll use this opportunity to set it up with our new 73BB-V3 wheel which incorporates 7/7 blade configuration and some various tricks thrown into the blade shape. Steps were utilized to offset low rpm surge issues through blade/tip design as well as make the overall wheel quite a bit larger then the 71R and even the GTX.

To the left is our 5935R wheel and on the right the new addition

http://www.pagparts.com/images/5935_vs_73BB-V3.jpg

[ericpaulyoung]

So will that CHRA drop into 35R housings?

[passatg60]

So will that CHRA drop into 35R housings?

Well, the 5935R is a 35r frame turbo. The 73BB-V3 would be a 3071R type of turbo but a tad bigger. The extended tips make it almost 78mm's and the exducer is 73mm's

[ericpaulyoung]

You confused me. :) Was that a yes?

[passatg60]

You confused me. :) Was that a yes?

Yes, the 5935r will drop right into a 35R turbine housing. It is a modified garrett turbo

[ericpaulyoung]

Nice. So I could upgrade in the future and keep my old turbine and compressor housings!
Epy

[mec]

Yes, the 5935r will drop right into a 35R turbine housing. It is a modified garrett turbo

hmm I'm confused what you are doing.... So you take a Garrett GT turbo, and add an extended tip compressor wheel to it? No compressor cover? Isn't that the equivalent of putting a GTX wheel on a GT cover? From my understanding the GTX line is basically just the same GT lineup with a modern extended tip design. I suppose one thing I did notice is that you go for the dual blade design while garrett is now using an 10-11 blade design....

I guess I'm confused on what exactly your process is and how it compares to the GTX line equivalent.

[passatg60]

hmm I'm confused what you are doing.... So you take a Garrett GT turbo, and add an extended tip compressor wheel to it? No compressor cover? Isn't that the equivalent of putting a GTX wheel on a GT cover? From my understanding the GTX line is basically just the same GT lineup with a modern extended tip design. I suppose one thing I did notice is that you go for the dual blade design while garrett is now using an 10-11 blade design....

I guess I'm confused on what exactly your process is and how it compares to the GTX line equivalent.

We modify Garrett turbos, yes. We provide the entire turbo including the appropriate comp cover or, when applicable, machine out an exisiting housing. It isnt like putting a GTX wheel on to a GT cover. This is not a GTX wheel. This is our wheel. We dont just deal with comp wheels. We can upgrade any Garrett product and even repair them. Here is an HTA76R that had the turbine wheel compromised. The bearing system is fine so we swapped out the turbine wheel for a new one and replaced the HTA wheel onto the new shaft and balanced.

http://www.pagparts.com/images/30r_turbine_swap.jpg

Not many places offer this kind of service as servicing dbb chra's can get dicey at times. We will be coming out with our own line of turbine wheels as well to compliment some of our unique offerings and to enhance an already good but limited line.

[mec]

We modify Garrett turbos, yes. We provide the entire turbo including the appropriate comp cover or, when applicable, machine out an exisiting housing. It isnt like putting a GTX wheel on to a GT cover. This is not a GTX wheel. This is our wheel. We dont just deal with comp wheels. We can upgrade any Garrett product and even repair them. Here is an HTA76R that had the turbine wheel compromised. The bearing system is fine so we swapped out the turbine wheel for a new one and replaced the HTA wheel onto the new shaft and balanced.

http://www.pagparts.com/images/30r_turbine_swap.jpg

Not many places offer this kind of service as servicing dbb chra's can get dicey at times. We will be coming out with our own line of turbine wheels as well to compliment some of our unique offerings and to enhance an already good but limited line.

Thats really cool, so you're basically doing what HTA does, you put an extended wheel billet wheel and cover on a gt turbo. But i suppose you take it further with the turbine wheel....very interesting stuff, looking forward to theprogress.

[passatg60]

Thats really cool, so you're basically doing what HTA does, you put an extended wheel billet wheel and cover on a gt turbo. But i suppose you take it further with the turbine wheel....very interesting stuff, looking forward to theprogress.

I actually have one in the works which will fit a bit larger wheel on the 28 series turbos that will free up a bit of top and lower backpressure and EGT's while retaining spool.

[mec]

I actually have one in the works which will fit a bit larger wheel on the 28 series turbos that will free up a bit of top and lower backpressure and EGT's while retaining spool.

Hmm sign me up as a beta tester!!

[passatg60]

Hmm sign me up as a beta tester!!

Sorry, if you were more local...

[mec]

Sorry, if you were more local...

How much more local do I need to be than to be in Murica!?

I got you, i'm assuming you want to actually go for a drive in it and what not. logs and videos will not suffice!

[passatg60]

How much more local do I need to be than to be in Murica!?

I got you, i'm assuming you want to actually go for a drive in it and what not. logs and videos will not suffice!

We'll see in the coming months. Its in production now. It'll be ready early next year

[mec]

We'll see in the coming months. Its in production now. It'll be ready early next year

what is it even like to design a comp wheel? like how do you choose the number of blades, the blade design, size, etc. Is it basically trying to blend qualities? Say for example a 3071 has an "x" size comp wheel and the 3582 has a "2x" compressor wheel so you make a custom 1.5x compressor wheel to make a compromise between both turbos?

[passatg60]

Hah, where do I start with this? Comp impeller design is mostly something that is arrived through much trial and error. Blade pitch, thickness, splitter blade coverage and positioning is paramount to achieving good performance. I do target specific power levels so my impellers stay within a certain size range but I do play with trims, blade height, hub coverage and pitch. I dont go too overboard as a seemingly small change can alter performance for the worse quite easily. Turbines even more complicated because much of the rules of comp wheel design do not apply to turbines. I usually alter exisiting designs here til I get it right.

[seal66]

So Passatg60 I am curious man. I am running a K04 and looking to upgrade to something with a bit more oopmh. I want to retain quick spool(gotta be under 3800) but maybe be close to 400HP and try to be above 420TQ.

[mec]

Hah, where do I start with this? Comp impeller design is mostly something that is arrived through much trial and error. Blade pitch, thickness, splitter blade coverage and positioning is paramount to achieving good performance. I do target specific power levels so my impellers stay within a certain size range but I do play with trims, blade height, hub coverage and pitch. I dont go too overboard as a seemingly small change can alter performance for the worse quite easily. Turbines even more complicated because much of the rules of comp wheel design do not apply to turbines. I usually alter exisiting designs here til I get it right.

using software or trial and error in real life application?

[rkesh88]

I actually have one in the works which will fit a bit larger wheel on the 28 series turbos that will free up a bit of top and lower backpressure and EGT's while retaining spool.


Id love to beta this. I was going to pm you about doing the v3 upgrade to my 2871r and I'm pretty loca . Live in Hackensack and home is on the island.

[passatg60]

So Passatg60 I am curious man. I am running a K04 and looking to upgrade to something with a bit more oopmh. I want to retain quick spool(gotta be under 3800) but maybe be close to 400HP and try to be above 420TQ.

Actually the 6758 would be perfect for that. I think even a nicely thought out billet 71R setup will get it somewhat close in spool but surpass it in HP and damn close on torque. I'm thinking long and hard about twin scrolling the 30R turbines


using software or trial and error in real life application?

software as well as testing. I have quite a few wheels under my belt so I know what works and what doesnt work as well.


Id love to beta this. I was going to pm you about doing the v3 upgrade to my 2871r and I'm pretty loca . Live in Hackensack and home is on the island.

I can do the upgrade at any time but to realize the full potential of the v3, a turbine wheel/housing would be best. The GT28 NS111 wheel would be a slight mismatch

[mec]

Actually the 6758 would be perfect for that. I think even a nicely thought out billet 71R setup will get it somewhat close in spool but surpass it in HP and damn close on torque. I'm thinking long and hard about twin scrolling the 30R turbines



software as well as testing. I have quite a few wheels under my belt so I know what works and what doesnt work as well.



I can do the upgrade at any time but to realize the full potential of the v3, a turbine wheel/housing would be best. The GT28 NS111 wheel would be a slight mismatch

Hmm ok what about this, I have a gtx2867, what do you have that I could just drop right into the housings to make more power and earlier spool? And of course how much are we looking at?

[ericpaulyoung]

Actually the 6758 would be perfect for that. I think even a nicely thought out billet 71R setup will get it somewhat close in spool but surpass it in HP and damn close on torque. I'm thinking long and hard about twin scrolling the 30R turbines...

Is a twin scroll very beneficial on a 2 liter?
epy

[passatg60]

Hmm ok what about this, I have a gtx2867, what do you have that I could just drop right into the housings to make more power and earlier spool? And of course how much are we looking at?

I dont have anything ready now. Its in production and will be done in Feb. But I can upgrade your turbo into a 30r frame if you want :). Its not going to do much for spool, however lol


Is a twin scroll very beneficial on a 2 liter?
epy

I dont see why not

[ericpaulyoung]

I dont see why not

I just didn't see it applied much on the small engines. I am all for anything that works :)

epy

[drumnjuny]

okay so i'm obviously not one of the people like martin and eric that understand all this 100%, but i get the basics (that was a disclaimer for my maybe-stupid question)

edit: it was a retarded question

[Jake@JHM]

okay so i'm obviously not one of the people like martin and eric that understand all this 100%, but i get the basics (that was a disclaimer for my maybe-stupid question)

edit: it was a retarded question

I lol'd

[mec]

I dont have anything ready now. Its in production and will be done in Feb. But I can upgrade your turbo into a 30r frame if you want :). Its not going to do much for spool, however lol



I dont see why not

Do you mean replace the turbo? or do you mean upgrade to your 73BB kit using my existing CHRA? If so....you've got me interested...keep talking....


I just didn't see it applied much on the small engines. I am all for anything that works :)

epy

Its a concept that should apply across the board. I mean physics right? I think what you are referring to is the diminished benefits of twin scroll on such a small displacement engine, comparatively to a 3.6l vr6 or such, but it should still have some effect. I've always wondered the effect Cast vs tubular has on twin scroll, almost seems like a twin scroll cast ruins the point of twin scroll, but integrated seems to be rocking it, must be some kind of black magic obviously.

Also isn't the main issue with twin scroll that its choked up top? I maen isn't that the tradeoff to any turbo? You can have early spool and choke up top, or you can have delayed spool and free flow up top. Seems like all turbos are just a combination of those elements.

[passatg60]

Do you mean replace the turbo? or do you mean upgrade to your 73BB kit using my existing CHRA? If so....you've got me interested...keep talking....



Its a concept that should apply across the board. I mean physics right? I think what you are referring to is the diminished benefits of twin scroll on such a small displacement engine, comparatively to a 3.6l vr6 or such, but it should still have some effect. I've always wondered the effect Cast vs tubular has on twin scroll, almost seems like a twin scroll cast ruins the point of twin scroll, but integrated seems to be rocking it, must be some kind of black magic obviously.

Also isn't the main issue with twin scroll that its choked up top? I maen isn't that the tradeoff to any turbo? You can have early spool and choke up top, or you can have delayed spool and free flow up top. Seems like all turbos are just a combination of those elements.

I mean to replace the wheel and the turbine wheel and housing from your existing chra, yes

You have to be careful with twin scroll sizing. The easy way of looking at it is to subtract .10ar to equal its monoscroll counterpart. But it really doesnt work that way all of the time. The really large A/R's are still drag racing housings and the small to medium sized ones do tend to choke up. I guess you can look at twin scrolls to target a specific powerband and to raise low end torque on the larger medium sized turbos like the 30R/35R's. My current vbanded setups are pretty good, however. A very similar design on the 1.8t got a jetta gli deep into the 10's and I dont see why it cannot. I know as time goes on, things get foggy but my turbo kit propelled the first FSI into the 11's :)